17 ms·

The way out of burnout (2016)

109 points by yla92 3y ago

paulcole 3y ago
> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. The best thing about these burnout discussions is that everyone just makes up their own definition to fit whatever symptoms they want to talk about. The WHO has a pretty clear definition that I find a lot more useful. https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupational-phenomenon-international-classification-of-diseases https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupat...
- jqcoffey 3y ago
  And here I thought burn out was the inability to do something. Learn something new every day!
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Reminds me of how antisocial behavior today is referred to as "narcissism". Like that, anything dysphoric about work life must be burnout.
  - unsubstantiated 3y ago
    The word "narcissism" has been weaponized as a form of slandering whoever you're after. It's closer to a new variant of "creepy," but now with 200% more Science™ behind it. The word "burnout," hasn't suffered the same unfortunate fate, although there are those of us who are waiting for competition to declare that they have burned out so we can take their share of the profits etc. It's more of a self-inflicted wound.
  - maxlamb 3y ago
    Maybe they were referring to antisocial personality disorder, which is very different from anti-social behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
- darkclouds 3y ago
  " as an occupational phenomenon" "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy" Yes it can be occupational, but it can also be applied to home, location, country or life. When thinking about being burnt out by life, its more commonly known as suicide but not the only reason for suicide. When thinking about being burnt out by a country, its seen in a variety of ways, like not voting for brexit if you are british and relying on the EU to draw up the legislation, which may or may not be enacted in full. It can be the culture of the country, the way people did/do things because its always been done that way. When thinking about being burnt out by home life, I think most parents can relate to that, but social conformity means they must maintain a stiff upper lip! Either way, I take everything people in authority or expertise or both say with a massive pinch of salt. I've seen so much hypocrisy its laughable. On the point of inability to relax, calcium has a massive stimulatory effect[1]. Sodium (too little or too much) also causes a rise in osteoclasts which release calcium from the bones.[2,3] And there is so much salt in the processed food today (dont think I need to provide links for that), and water hardness is a contributory factor (dont think I need to provide links for that), beit soaking in the bath, having long showers[4], or drinking lots of hot beverages, is it any wonder people cant relax? If you get banged up in a mental health hospital, you wont be eating processed food, so your sodium intake will likely fall, and they probably filter their water so its soft water, to reduce estate maintenance costs. So yes the WHO has a very narrow definition of burn out, but in the absence of any other definition for the above possible factors, I think the populace apply their own definitions and interpretation of burn out, although needing a holiday could be applied to country/location/home burn out whilst not being recognised as burnt out, like I've described above, mainly because to quote Monty Python "Always look on the bright side of life..." Also, considering the all encompassing nature of the DSM, I'd have thought they would have had some input on burnout, but it looks like they are still contemplating it as a mental disorder.[5] "Stemming from a lack of conceptual clarity, the current state of burnout research remains, unfortunately, largely circular and riddled with measurement issues."[5] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  I think anyone who has experienced burnout of any severity sees the WHO definition as scoped from the employers point of view only and as a productivity issue. As a human though it extends to all aspects of life. I disagree with the assessment of the article too. I’ve gone through burnout and mentored a few dozen people going through it. It’s nothing to do with relaxing, or is confined to work. It’s all encompassing, has strong parallels and likely includes depression and an anxiety disorder. It has more of a sense of the inability to initiate anything rather than the inability to do nothing. Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear. These sounds like the appropriate mental response to unrelenting and uneasing stress to which you see no way out of. Most people suffering burn out spend an awful lot of time simply doing nothing. However myself and the folks I’ve worked with as a mentor at work on burnout share the trait we lose the ability to identify things we enjoy - video games, music, travel, etc, lose their redeeming value and they can’t identify what music they like any more or a game they want to play. When they relax, it’s spent ruminating. To that extent maybe the articles point is true. For me the way out was vipassana meditation and Buddhism. It taught me to master my rumination, detach myself from the stress, and discover the value of simply being rather than being someone or something. I recommend it to most people but only one or two have actually tried it.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    How do you differentiate between burnout and depression? What you are describing sounds a lot what I thought of as depression.
  - irencha 3y ago
    Your description of burnout is very relatable to my life right now. Thanks. Do the people you mentor also do Buddhism and meditation? What did they do that helped (or did they just never recover)?
    - GoToRO 3y ago
      My view is that if you overwork then your body resources are depleted. One way to recover is to just do nothing. The resources will start to accumulate back but it'very slow. One thing that worked for me was multivitamins. I could see a change in a week. Not sure if it was proper burnout or something else (bad diet) though. The simptoms look the same.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  >> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. What I find funny about this is that it would imply I've been burned out since I was 10 or 12 years old. "Just do nothing" was something I never considered possible for me, or desirable in general. For me the struggle was, and is, always about autonomy - being able to do what I want, instead of chores, homework, demands of parents, $dayjob, errands, demands of partner, etc.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    There are days when I feel like a robot - I have almost no agency from morning until night. It really drags me down when it goes on for more than a few days consecutively. It's weird because my job is OK and I love my kids, and it's not that bad - I just feel like an NPC doing this day after day and want to "jump off the rails". Sometimes the only thing I can fall back on is that even if I can't choose what I'm doing I get to choose how I'm doing it.
    - Tade0 3y ago
      I was in this state for the first few months after my child was born. I remember one internal dialogue from that time: -She woke up already. I barely had half an hour today to do something else than cleaning and that's only because I skipped some tasks. Where's my time off? -What do you mean where's your time off? This was your time off. It got better when I let go of my mid 30s childless person presumption of having time after work. Also it got better because my daughter is now two and a half and can focus on an activity for the 114 seconds at worst it takes me to use the toilet.
    - pmoriarty 3y ago
      The vast majority of employees get paid to do something they would rather not do, had they a choice. They would rather be entertaining themselves, being with their families, relaxing, etc. Yet they have to work, and do things they don't want to do day after day, month after month, and year after year. On top of that they often have to pretend to like it, and to spend time with people they don't want to be with. It's even worse if they have to commute or not get enough sleep, or if they're not valued at work or don't feel they can make a difference. After a while, that takes its toll. Some can handle it, but some can't.
jelling 3y ago
> Burn-out is included in the 11th Revision of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11) as an occupational phenomenon. It is not classified as a medical condition. Internet doctors in shambles after learning they're just occupational therapists.
- H8crilA 3y ago
  The problem with affective mental disorders is that they evade classification. Burnout can look like anxiety disorder, depression or PTSD. By that definition it is indeed an occupational phenomenon, but in practice that classification doesn't help much.
boberoni 3y ago
https://archive.is/XvEXh https://archive.is/XvEXh
Tokumei-no-hito 3y ago
This article serves no purpose. It describes an anecdotal relationship with a patient but with neither practical advice nor any closure. I thought my reader was blocked from loading more content but that truly was the entire article. 2/10.
- nelox 3y ago
  I’m not sure we read the same article. The purpose is defined in the subtitle. > A psychoanalyst explains why for people feeling “burnt out”, simply trying to relax doesn’t always work The article explores the challenges of recovering from burnout, suggesting external solutions like reducing working hours or engaging in contemplative practices. Psychoanalysis is also considered as a means to address burnout’s psychological roots. It can help individuals learn to relax and understand underlying vulnerabilities that contribute to burnout. The patient’s childhood experiences shaped his view on rest and productivity, which he is now questioning. The article encourages reflection on internalised habits and ideals of productivity to find a more fulfilling way of living.
- magic_hamster 3y ago
  If you look around the comments here, someone posted a link to the unblocked article. It seems like an analysis and conclusions into why the subject was not able to just relax and do nothing. It goes back to his childhood and upbringing. I think there's definitely value in reading this and asking yourself some of the questions this person faced.
- urbandw311er 3y ago
  Are you sure you realised it’s paywalled content? There’s more to the article
catsarebetter 3y ago
Here's a hot take I heard from a CEO coach last year. She thought burnout was the bodies response of saying that you are literally going to die if you keep working
- jb1991 3y ago
  Half right. The other half is that you literally will die if you also stop working.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    How so?
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      Life is a pay-to-play game these days.
      - BossingAround 3y ago
        When was a time that life wasn't a pay-to-play game? I'd argue that today, the "pay-to-play" cost is the cheapest it has ever been for the largest number of people on earth.
        TeMPOraL 3y ago
        All until the last 100 years or so. Back when you could still reasonably survive on sustenance farming in the middle of nowhere. Today, there is no middle of nowhere anymore - wherever you go, there are people there, and an economy, and taxes to pay.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - ehnto 3y ago
      Trapped between a rock and a hard place. You can't keep working because you are burnt out, but you can't stop working because there are bills to pay. Obviously not a problem exclusive to people living paycheck to paycheck, but it certainly would be easier to deal with if you could take some time to recover without financially ruining yourself or worse.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
H8crilA 3y ago
This is a description of workaholism - a coping mechanism based on filling one's schedule with "productive" tasks, not burnout. In fact burnout typically makes the patient be able only to do nothing. There's a decent theory of coping mechanisms called Schema Therapy. Don't take it as gospel, but one may be surprised by some of the schemas actually present in one's life. I'm not sure one can go through this framework on their own though, since it is supposed to uncover deeply entrenched maladaptive patterns of behavior that feel completely normal to the patient.
- ArnoVW 3y ago
  I am generally hyperactive and curious. Stopped working a lot when I had kids, but still always 'doing and learning things' Except that I ran into a burn-out. The trigger of burn-out is frustration, not fatigue. And they're exponential, and this was my third one. So it was a doozy. It's been 3-4 years now, and I'm starting to get 'normal' again, even if I tire easily. My point is. During the all-time low of my last burn out, I wanted to do stuff. Nothing fancy, just watch an educational YT video or reading a book or a HN thread. Anything to satisfy my keep my mind occupied during the very long days (working was completely out of the question).. and it was impossible. It was the most painful experience I have had, and I don't wish it on anyone. Off course that's a sample point of one. But I wouldn't be so sure of what you're saying.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    You wrote that you were absolutely unable to do anything despite trying. I think that fits. More severe cases of burnout or depression can extend this to basic activities such as eating, hygiene or even speaking - some people may be unable to speak back despite hearing and understanding others. Such cases of course require immediate psychiatric in-patient treatment.
  - LaundroMat 3y ago
    I can relate to this 90%. The only difference with me was that I had stressful home situation and I postponed things that I knew I'd be able to get away with at the last minute. The former is being resolved but is mostly out of my hands. The latter was a maladaptive behaviour I was not aware of ("I thrive on deadlines", I'd say) and now am very wary of falling into again.
Tempest1981 3y ago
For me, it's harder and harder to find the initial novelty that made programming fun. Starting out, writing some Borland C++ code to render a pixelated 16-color 3D sphere on a VGA monitor was magic! Now, even a beautifully ray-traced photoreal landscape would be an unimpressive yawn. How do you find that novelty? That magic? Is this burnout, or something different?
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  Perhaps it’s just me not having been a professional dev for as long but, perhaps moving to new fields, topics, or ideas could help? Like building an operating system, or a hypervisor, or a vm for some made up language, or an autograd engine, or something that sounds absurd. What about an optimizing compiler? Maybe venturing into project Euler could help? What about learning about approximation algorithms? Or randomized ones? What about numerical optimisation? Maybe the magic is not in the not knowing, but in knowing how things are done, seeing the connections between things and building beautiful abstractions that just work.
- whstl 3y ago
  The magic for me was never in the end result, but in knowing how to do. I think it is a sign of the times that a lot of people think there isn't fun or magic in programming anymore. With the internet there's always know-it-alls going "why should I use your programming language instead of Python?" when you show people an experiment. Or maybe you build an internal app that solves a problem at work and there's 20 people saying "why didn't you just use Notion". But even before that... I remember building a primitive text-to-voice synthesizer in the 90s and showing some friends, and they just said it was crap because they saw something on TV that was better. Of course mine was just a toy, but I remember even as a kid wondering why they were comparing the accomplishments of a 15 year old with IBM... On the other hand, I made some internet forums back then and on-line people people loved it. So maybe ask yourself who's doing the yawning. Is it other people vicariously basking in someone else's glory? Or is it yourself not enjoying the journey. EDIT: That actually reminds of magic. Some people say that magic tricks shouldn't be revealed. Well, I will admit that I yawn at magic and magicians, but I enjoy knowing how the tricks are performed.
BossingAround 3y ago
After being the top performer for ~3 years, I started getting calls to the stickiest, most stressful situations that came up, because "I can handle it" (typically true). I managed to burn out within 6 months after that. I find that good performance is commonly rewarded with a) more work, and b) more stressful work. I don't know how one overcomes burnout to be honest. I tried for another year when I got promoted, set boundaries, refused stressful work, etc. Then, I just became apathetic and cynical towards my work. I'm now in the process of changing companies. I have no idea if that helps the burnout, but I know I can't continue in my current position, even if it actually became quite low-stakes "rest and vest" kind of a position after talking to the leadership about my struggles. The damage has been done, and I could not repair it.
- whstl 3y ago
  IME it help but also doesn't. Part of the problem with burnout is internal. Removing unrealistic external expectations with a fresh job does help a lot, however there are still the expectations coming from the inside.
- yla92 3y ago
  I am feeling all the things you describe as well. Like you, I am also looking out but damn, the tech market is pretty grim, at least at where I am right now.
  - agumonkey 3y ago
    I'm considering flipping houses these days. Something about manual labour on various kinds (wood, wall, metal) helps me get into flow.
  - BossingAround 3y ago
    I applied to 4 positions, got invited to an interview for 1 of those, and got that job. Might have been lucky. I'm losing all of my unvested RSUs but I expected that the new job won't be able to match that. I do think that you have to reduce your TC expectation in this market.
- 3y ago
ochronus 3y ago
I recently wrote about typical causes and symptoms of burnout - and it's not behind a paywall ;) - https://leadership.garden/demystifying-burnout/ https://leadership.garden/demystifying-burnout/
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109 points by yla92 3y ago

> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. The best thing about these burnout discussions is that everyone just makes up their own definition to fit whatever symptoms they want to talk about. The WHO has a pretty clear definition that I find a lot more useful. https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupational-phenomenon-international-classification-of-diseases https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupat...

jqcoffey 3y ago
And here I thought burn out was the inability to do something. Learn something new every day!
ravenstine 3y ago
Reminds me of how antisocial behavior today is referred to as "narcissism". Like that, anything dysphoric about work life must be burnout.
- unsubstantiated 3y ago
  The word "narcissism" has been weaponized as a form of slandering whoever you're after. It's closer to a new variant of "creepy," but now with 200% more Science™ behind it. The word "burnout," hasn't suffered the same unfortunate fate, although there are those of us who are waiting for competition to declare that they have burned out so we can take their share of the profits etc. It's more of a self-inflicted wound.
- maxlamb 3y ago
  Maybe they were referring to antisocial personality disorder, which is very different from anti-social behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
darkclouds 3y ago
" as an occupational phenomenon" "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy" Yes it can be occupational, but it can also be applied to home, location, country or life. When thinking about being burnt out by life, its more commonly known as suicide but not the only reason for suicide. When thinking about being burnt out by a country, its seen in a variety of ways, like not voting for brexit if you are british and relying on the EU to draw up the legislation, which may or may not be enacted in full. It can be the culture of the country, the way people did/do things because its always been done that way. When thinking about being burnt out by home life, I think most parents can relate to that, but social conformity means they must maintain a stiff upper lip! Either way, I take everything people in authority or expertise or both say with a massive pinch of salt. I've seen so much hypocrisy its laughable. On the point of inability to relax, calcium has a massive stimulatory effect[1]. Sodium (too little or too much) also causes a rise in osteoclasts which release calcium from the bones.[2,3] And there is so much salt in the processed food today (dont think I need to provide links for that), and water hardness is a contributory factor (dont think I need to provide links for that), beit soaking in the bath, having long showers[4], or drinking lots of hot beverages, is it any wonder people cant relax? If you get banged up in a mental health hospital, you wont be eating processed food, so your sodium intake will likely fall, and they probably filter their water so its soft water, to reduce estate maintenance costs. So yes the WHO has a very narrow definition of burn out, but in the absence of any other definition for the above possible factors, I think the populace apply their own definitions and interpretation of burn out, although needing a holiday could be applied to country/location/home burn out whilst not being recognised as burnt out, like I've described above, mainly because to quote Monty Python "Always look on the bright side of life..." Also, considering the all encompassing nature of the DSM, I'd have thought they would have had some input on burnout, but it looks like they are still contemplating it as a mental disorder.[5] "Stemming from a lack of conceptual clarity, the current state of burnout research remains, unfortunately, largely circular and riddled with measurement issues."[5] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/
fnordpiglet 3y ago
I think anyone who has experienced burnout of any severity sees the WHO definition as scoped from the employers point of view only and as a productivity issue. As a human though it extends to all aspects of life. I disagree with the assessment of the article too. I’ve gone through burnout and mentored a few dozen people going through it. It’s nothing to do with relaxing, or is confined to work. It’s all encompassing, has strong parallels and likely includes depression and an anxiety disorder. It has more of a sense of the inability to initiate anything rather than the inability to do nothing. Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear. These sounds like the appropriate mental response to unrelenting and uneasing stress to which you see no way out of. Most people suffering burn out spend an awful lot of time simply doing nothing. However myself and the folks I’ve worked with as a mentor at work on burnout share the trait we lose the ability to identify things we enjoy - video games, music, travel, etc, lose their redeeming value and they can’t identify what music they like any more or a game they want to play. When they relax, it’s spent ruminating. To that extent maybe the articles point is true. For me the way out was vipassana meditation and Buddhism. It taught me to master my rumination, detach myself from the stress, and discover the value of simply being rather than being someone or something. I recommend it to most people but only one or two have actually tried it.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  How do you differentiate between burnout and depression? What you are describing sounds a lot what I thought of as depression.
- irencha 3y ago
  Your description of burnout is very relatable to my life right now. Thanks. Do the people you mentor also do Buddhism and meditation? What did they do that helped (or did they just never recover)?
  - GoToRO 3y ago
    My view is that if you overwork then your body resources are depleted. One way to recover is to just do nothing. The resources will start to accumulate back but it'very slow. One thing that worked for me was multivitamins. I could see a change in a week. Not sure if it was proper burnout or something else (bad diet) though. The simptoms look the same.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
>> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. What I find funny about this is that it would imply I've been burned out since I was 10 or 12 years old. "Just do nothing" was something I never considered possible for me, or desirable in general. For me the struggle was, and is, always about autonomy - being able to do what I want, instead of chores, homework, demands of parents, $dayjob, errands, demands of partner, etc.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  There are days when I feel like a robot - I have almost no agency from morning until night. It really drags me down when it goes on for more than a few days consecutively. It's weird because my job is OK and I love my kids, and it's not that bad - I just feel like an NPC doing this day after day and want to "jump off the rails". Sometimes the only thing I can fall back on is that even if I can't choose what I'm doing I get to choose how I'm doing it.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    I was in this state for the first few months after my child was born. I remember one internal dialogue from that time: -She woke up already. I barely had half an hour today to do something else than cleaning and that's only because I skipped some tasks. Where's my time off? -What do you mean where's your time off? This was your time off. It got better when I let go of my mid 30s childless person presumption of having time after work. Also it got better because my daughter is now two and a half and can focus on an activity for the 114 seconds at worst it takes me to use the toilet.
  - pmoriarty 3y ago
    The vast majority of employees get paid to do something they would rather not do, had they a choice. They would rather be entertaining themselves, being with their families, relaxing, etc. Yet they have to work, and do things they don't want to do day after day, month after month, and year after year. On top of that they often have to pretend to like it, and to spend time with people they don't want to be with. It's even worse if they have to commute or not get enough sleep, or if they're not valued at work or don't feel they can make a difference. After a while, that takes its toll. Some can handle it, but some can't.

jelling 3y ago

> Burn-out is included in the 11th Revision of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11) as an occupational phenomenon. It is not classified as a medical condition. Internet doctors in shambles after learning they're just occupational therapists.

H8crilA 3y ago
The problem with affective mental disorders is that they evade classification. Burnout can look like anxiety disorder, depression or PTSD. By that definition it is indeed an occupational phenomenon, but in practice that classification doesn't help much.

boberoni 3y ago

https://archive.is/XvEXh https://archive.is/XvEXh

Tokumei-no-hito 3y ago

This article serves no purpose. It describes an anecdotal relationship with a patient but with neither practical advice nor any closure. I thought my reader was blocked from loading more content but that truly was the entire article. 2/10.

nelox 3y ago
I’m not sure we read the same article. The purpose is defined in the subtitle. > A psychoanalyst explains why for people feeling “burnt out”, simply trying to relax doesn’t always work The article explores the challenges of recovering from burnout, suggesting external solutions like reducing working hours or engaging in contemplative practices. Psychoanalysis is also considered as a means to address burnout’s psychological roots. It can help individuals learn to relax and understand underlying vulnerabilities that contribute to burnout. The patient’s childhood experiences shaped his view on rest and productivity, which he is now questioning. The article encourages reflection on internalised habits and ideals of productivity to find a more fulfilling way of living.
magic_hamster 3y ago
If you look around the comments here, someone posted a link to the unblocked article. It seems like an analysis and conclusions into why the subject was not able to just relax and do nothing. It goes back to his childhood and upbringing. I think there's definitely value in reading this and asking yourself some of the questions this person faced.
urbandw311er 3y ago
Are you sure you realised it’s paywalled content? There’s more to the article

catsarebetter 3y ago

Here's a hot take I heard from a CEO coach last year. She thought burnout was the bodies response of saying that you are literally going to die if you keep working

jb1991 3y ago
Half right. The other half is that you literally will die if you also stop working.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  How so?
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Life is a pay-to-play game these days.
    - BossingAround 3y ago
      When was a time that life wasn't a pay-to-play game? I'd argue that today, the "pay-to-play" cost is the cheapest it has ever been for the largest number of people on earth.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        All until the last 100 years or so. Back when you could still reasonably survive on sustenance farming in the middle of nowhere. Today, there is no middle of nowhere anymore - wherever you go, there are people there, and an economy, and taxes to pay.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - ehnto 3y ago
    Trapped between a rock and a hard place. You can't keep working because you are burnt out, but you can't stop working because there are bills to pay. Obviously not a problem exclusive to people living paycheck to paycheck, but it certainly would be easier to deal with if you could take some time to recover without financially ruining yourself or worse.

deleted 3y ago

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H8crilA 3y ago

This is a description of workaholism - a coping mechanism based on filling one's schedule with "productive" tasks, not burnout. In fact burnout typically makes the patient be able only to do nothing. There's a decent theory of coping mechanisms called Schema Therapy. Don't take it as gospel, but one may be surprised by some of the schemas actually present in one's life. I'm not sure one can go through this framework on their own though, since it is supposed to uncover deeply entrenched maladaptive patterns of behavior that feel completely normal to the patient.

ArnoVW 3y ago
I am generally hyperactive and curious. Stopped working a lot when I had kids, but still always 'doing and learning things' Except that I ran into a burn-out. The trigger of burn-out is frustration, not fatigue. And they're exponential, and this was my third one. So it was a doozy. It's been 3-4 years now, and I'm starting to get 'normal' again, even if I tire easily. My point is. During the all-time low of my last burn out, I wanted to do stuff. Nothing fancy, just watch an educational YT video or reading a book or a HN thread. Anything to satisfy my keep my mind occupied during the very long days (working was completely out of the question).. and it was impossible. It was the most painful experience I have had, and I don't wish it on anyone. Off course that's a sample point of one. But I wouldn't be so sure of what you're saying.
- deleted 3y ago
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- H8crilA 3y ago
  You wrote that you were absolutely unable to do anything despite trying. I think that fits. More severe cases of burnout or depression can extend this to basic activities such as eating, hygiene or even speaking - some people may be unable to speak back despite hearing and understanding others. Such cases of course require immediate psychiatric in-patient treatment.
- LaundroMat 3y ago
  I can relate to this 90%. The only difference with me was that I had stressful home situation and I postponed things that I knew I'd be able to get away with at the last minute. The former is being resolved but is mostly out of my hands. The latter was a maladaptive behaviour I was not aware of ("I thrive on deadlines", I'd say) and now am very wary of falling into again.

Tempest1981 3y ago

For me, it's harder and harder to find the initial novelty that made programming fun. Starting out, writing some Borland C++ code to render a pixelated 16-color 3D sphere on a VGA monitor was magic! Now, even a beautifully ray-traced photoreal landscape would be an unimpressive yawn. How do you find that novelty? That magic? Is this burnout, or something different?

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
Perhaps it’s just me not having been a professional dev for as long but, perhaps moving to new fields, topics, or ideas could help? Like building an operating system, or a hypervisor, or a vm for some made up language, or an autograd engine, or something that sounds absurd. What about an optimizing compiler? Maybe venturing into project Euler could help? What about learning about approximation algorithms? Or randomized ones? What about numerical optimisation? Maybe the magic is not in the not knowing, but in knowing how things are done, seeing the connections between things and building beautiful abstractions that just work.
whstl 3y ago
The magic for me was never in the end result, but in knowing how to do. I think it is a sign of the times that a lot of people think there isn't fun or magic in programming anymore. With the internet there's always know-it-alls going "why should I use your programming language instead of Python?" when you show people an experiment. Or maybe you build an internal app that solves a problem at work and there's 20 people saying "why didn't you just use Notion". But even before that... I remember building a primitive text-to-voice synthesizer in the 90s and showing some friends, and they just said it was crap because they saw something on TV that was better. Of course mine was just a toy, but I remember even as a kid wondering why they were comparing the accomplishments of a 15 year old with IBM... On the other hand, I made some internet forums back then and on-line people people loved it. So maybe ask yourself who's doing the yawning. Is it other people vicariously basking in someone else's glory? Or is it yourself not enjoying the journey. EDIT: That actually reminds of magic. Some people say that magic tricks shouldn't be revealed. Well, I will admit that I yawn at magic and magicians, but I enjoy knowing how the tricks are performed.

BossingAround 3y ago

After being the top performer for ~3 years, I started getting calls to the stickiest, most stressful situations that came up, because "I can handle it" (typically true). I managed to burn out within 6 months after that. I find that good performance is commonly rewarded with a) more work, and b) more stressful work. I don't know how one overcomes burnout to be honest. I tried for another year when I got promoted, set boundaries, refused stressful work, etc. Then, I just became apathetic and cynical towards my work. I'm now in the process of changing companies. I have no idea if that helps the burnout, but I know I can't continue in my current position, even if it actually became quite low-stakes "rest and vest" kind of a position after talking to the leadership about my struggles. The damage has been done, and I could not repair it.

whstl 3y ago
IME it help but also doesn't. Part of the problem with burnout is internal. Removing unrealistic external expectations with a fresh job does help a lot, however there are still the expectations coming from the inside.
yla92 3y ago
I am feeling all the things you describe as well. Like you, I am also looking out but damn, the tech market is pretty grim, at least at where I am right now.
- agumonkey 3y ago
  I'm considering flipping houses these days. Something about manual labour on various kinds (wood, wall, metal) helps me get into flow.
- BossingAround 3y ago
  I applied to 4 positions, got invited to an interview for 1 of those, and got that job. Might have been lucky. I'm losing all of my unvested RSUs but I expected that the new job won't be able to match that. I do think that you have to reduce your TC expectation in this market.
3y ago

ochronus 3y ago

I recently wrote about typical causes and symptoms of burnout - and it's not behind a paywall ;) - https://leadership.garden/demystifying-burnout/ https://leadership.garden/demystifying-burnout/

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