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The unix69 keyboard layout: nerdy and nice
- drewg123 3y agoPlease tell me that I can buy this somewhere..
- fanf2 3y agoI don’t know of a way to get one that doesn’t involve a lot of DIY. There are multi-layout PCBs that can support a unix69 layout, eg https://mechboards.co.uk/products/65-pcb https://mechboards.co.uk/products/65-pcb but they all require soldering, and you also need to find a suitable multi-layout switch plate. I designed my own PCB and enclosure, mostly for fun. I will publish it but I need to make sure the custom KiCad library footprints are committed to the right git repository…
- jeppesen-io 3y agoFirst glance I thought this was silly with left ctrl changed to fn But on closer look, I saw caps lock was changed to ctrl. Which is what I do on all my computers I hope the Framework ecosystem grows so we might someday see a keyboard like this for it
- JKCalhoun 3y agoAnd no CapsLock at all. Bug or feature?
- smodo 3y agoIf you need capslock that’s easy to emulate in software nowadays. For instance KDE has a default option to toggle capslock by pressing both shift keys.
- o11c 3y agoI use that, but unfortunately it's not that easy (also I'm pretty sure it's not KDE-specific - most keyboard stuff even works in the console!). Let's use `xev`'s `state` field for reference: First, `state & 0x10` is NumLock which is the only modifier that's often set. Software knows to mask out this and a couple other modifiers when dispatching keyboard shortcuts. Second, `state & 0x02` is CapsLock. Software that detects CapsLock as a modifier will work correctly with double-shift-as-capslock. Unfortunately, `state & 0x01` is Shift. Software that reads CapsLock as a keysym (often e.g. games that use it as a "turbo" toggle) will often fail, because when double-shift is pressed, the shift modifier has been set. And it's generally considered a bug to ignore modifiers when dispatching keyboard events. Unfortunately, there is no event for just "`state` changed", it is only dispatched alongside some other mouse/keyboard event. If you press just `shift` you'll see that it doesn't update yet for the just-pressed key (and fundamentally cannot due to how it has to work to switch between keycode->keysym mappings).
- zdw 3y agoDefinitely a feature. All the "lock" keys are bugs.
- madphilosopher 3y agoIn my entire computing career, I have never locked my Caps or unlocked my Num! That's how I roll.
- JKCalhoun 3y agoOnly hit caps lock on accident. I used to pry the CAPSLOCK keycap off my keyboards at work.
- ris58h 3y agoI've had CapsLock mapped to Esc for years and haven't looked back. I'm OK with holding Shift.
- stronglikedan 3y ago> I saw caps lock was changed to ctrl. Which is what I do on all my computers But then how do you yell at people on the internet?!?!
- me-vs-cat 3y agoBOTH SHIFTS TOGETHER TURNS ON CAPS LOCK and tap either to turn it off.
- jwells89 3y agoIf there were an HHKB or Tsangan layout keyboard module for Framework laptops, first party or otherwise, that'd make them significantly more appealing to me when laptop shopping. One of the main downsides of becoming a keyboard enthusiast and finding a layout that really "clicks" with you is that you're stuck with standard layouts on laptops.
- julesnp 3y agoFor my preferred layout in QMK, I have Caps Lock mapped to Caps Lock only on tap, and Control on hold. I also have the right Alt key mapped to Backspace on tap, Alt on hold, to give me an additional backspace which I can hit with my thumb, keeping the rest of my fingers on the home row. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/4d894ef5848c4f3236123c60aa0be963 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/4d894ef5848c4f...
- moondev 3y agoThe new framework keyboard is QMK so it shouldn't be a problem
- ivanjermakov 3y agoI use kmonad[1] to have QMK-like functionality on any keyboard. https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad
- tedunangst 3y agoI like improper keyboards where esc is off by itself.
- fanf2 3y agohttp://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d3cda2cbce5e1289c97469c2b23f7653 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d3cda2cbce5e12...
- tedunangst 3y agoThat's... not what I meant, but well played.
- pseudo_meta 3y agokeyboard-layout-editor is such a fantastic site. It's really a bummer that it is unmaintained, haven't found any site that comes close.
- grozmovoi 3y agoI like this layout. I'm used to the F keys tho...
- fanf2 3y agoYou could make a 75% version, but it would not be quite as nice :-) I think my next design will have another column of macro keys, making 74 (my birth year mod 100).
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y agoThe lack of F keys continues to boggle my mind on these custom layouts. I need to be be able to mash F5 or F8 at a moments notice without any chording nonsense. Unless you are working from an ironing board, most desks have ample “vertical” space to extend towards the monitor with the extra keyboard row.
- madphilosopher 3y agoAnd keep them in groups of 4 so I can easily and deftly land on F5 and F8, which are to the extremities of the group.
- K7PJP 3y agoPerhaps they're using these keyboards on a Mac? MacOS doesn't really use F keys. They're instead dedicated to some system-wide controls (media, volume, display brightness) by default, and you'd need to chord to use them as function keys. They're rarely assigned to anything anyway.
- seabrookmx 3y ago75% (84 key) is definitely your friend then. It's similar to a lot of laptop layouts as well, so if you find yourself often switching between a laptop and desktop it feels quite natural. I use a budget Keycool 84 (MX browns) and love it.
- Daneel_ 3y agoThe Vortex Race3 is amazing too, plus it can be reprogrammed without a computer.
- JKCalhoun 3y agoI've built a few custom keyboard myself. What always stings though are the fairly limited keycap sizes that are available. I found you need to more or less target the least common denominator among keycaps lest you find yourself pigeon-holed into one single source for your keycaps. To that end, really wide spacebars are out — you'll either have empty real estate along the bottom row or end up adding arbitrary "filler keys" (no, my retro keyboard does not need a Windows/Command/Meta key). I like the Control key where the author places it, but you might find it challenging finding a 1.75u CNTL key among your favorite keycap set.
- fanf2 3y agoYes, the downside of this layout is that inexpensive keycap sets usually lack the necessary extras. I am brewing a followup blog post with some notes on some of the more subtle things I have learned about keycaps.
- benreesman 3y agoI originally went to blank keycaps to break myself of ever looking down to type, I was a decent touch typist before but doing that is “next level or bust” move. That was years ago, but I kept it because people seem impressed by it.
- lawn 3y ago> A proper Unix keyboard layout must have escape next to 1 and control next to A. I don't get it, why is this a hard requirement?
- hyperhopper 3y agoVim reasons I'm guessing
- camgunz 3y agoMaybe but I strongly recommend Ctrl-[ instead. Life changing.
- kstrauser 3y agoI finally learned that trick when I spent a lot of time typing on an iPad Pro with a Smart Keyboard Folio. It doesn't have an escape key at all. It bugged me terribly at first but I liked it once I was used to it.
- microtonal 3y agoUf. Get a keyboard with a thumb cluster and put Esc there. I use vi bindings everywhere and not putting Esc on a an easy to reach key would be terrible.
- lawn 3y agoIf you want to have Escape in a good position, then the far top left is a really bad position, as is having Control on the caps lock position. But then to change that you'd need to reconsider the keyboard layout itself, which seems like a too big of a mental hurdle for most people.
- graywh 3y agoCtrl next to A pre-dates vi
- madphilosopher 3y agoYou can remap the key combination "jk" to ESC in order to switch effortlessly from editing mode to normal mode. inoremap jk <esc> ("jk" doesn't normally appear in English and is easy to type)
- coldpie 3y agoI am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never have ergonomic layouts. If you care this much about typing, surely the first thing you do is get an ergo layout. The rectangle layout is really bad, people! How can you spend this much time and energy and money on keyboards, and keep using the awful rectangle layout?
- kiddico 3y agoLet's just be honest... We like the way it looks more than we care about our long term health.
- otikik 3y agoIt’s not even a rectangle, it’s a parallelogram (both hands move “up-left” or “down-right”). It’s quite baffling
- fanf2 3y agoSome keyboard designs unreservedly embrace it https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlantxl-50-mechanical-keyboard-kit/ https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-kits/diy-40-kits/zlan... https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-powered-by-seeed-xiao-rp2040-f73604 https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-owl-a-60-keyboard-...
- bombcar 3y agoKeyboard enthusiasts can never get carpal tunnel because they spend too much time switching keyboards to actually type.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- catchnear4321 3y agoswitching? upgrading. reaching for the endgame, realizing the mistakes, reaching again. art demands sacrifice. if you want to use that artisan keycap, impale your finger on it. pain is weakness leaving the body. listen to the beautiful clacks it makes. (it can get a little TKLraiser, if you will.)
- shrubble 3y agoMy Redragon K552 has the ESC key at the upper left in line with the dedicated Fn keys. This males it easier to hit when using vi. Beside "1" is backquote and tilde. Seems to work well. I should get around to remapping Ctrl and CapsLock one of these days... BTW the K552 has been able to take a lot of abuse over the years and is still working well for me, and it is not expensive. Cheaper keyboards often don't last a year with me (I learned on a manual typewriter). I think I paid $40 at MicroCenter like 2 or 3 years ago.
- jvanderbot 3y agoThe days of static-mapped keyboards are limited. I reprogram my keycaps frequently. Clearly, there's no capslock to be had, and that's an ESC (vim user). But honestly, in the days of reprogramming at H/W or OS level, why are we worried about key placement this much?
- PeeMcGee 3y agoThis seems pretty nice if you spend 100% of your computer time in a shell. For typical usage, swapping out F keys with a modifier seems like a downgrade unless you're short on space, and macros seems sorta like a workaround to address absent keys that unexpectedly become important. Also sorta unclear whether delete will go backwards or forwards, and in any case how do you delete in the other direction? (the backtick/tilde positioning seems odd at a glance but it makes sense when I think about it.) I've definitely considered going with a more tuned layout such as this but I feel like it would just make things harder in general, with little to show for it apart from an increase in raw APM. Escape being where it is makes sense, but it's not like I find myself needing to immediately depress it to switch modes. "Escape Classic" takes a moment to reach and depress, but those moments coincide with some sort of context switch that your brain probably also needs a moment to adjust to, so it works itself out. Much how I imagine (probably incorrectly) switching to Dvorak might make other keyboards feel alien, the rearranged keys would be a hindrance unless I carry a keyboard with me everywhere and insist on using it. It's jarring enough switching from one laptop keyboard to another, and the differences there are typically minimal.
- fanf2 3y agoI basically never use the F keys as F keys: when I am using an Apple keyboard they default to media keys and similar stuff, which I do use. On my new keyboard I have bound (for example) fn+plus and fn+minus to adjust the volume - plus and minus are directly under the volume keys on my laptop. The delete key deletes left when pressed by itself, or right when pressed with fn, same as Apple keyboards. Or use ctrl-d, which works in bash and emacs and all over macOS. I have configured the macro keys to move windows to predetermined places, which is something I need far more frequently than the 39 extra keys on a full-sized keyboard.
- jwells89 3y agoMy F-key usage is extremely low, and so layering them is no big deal. On average I think I might use layered F-keys a single-digit number of times per year. This probably has to do with the platform of choice (macOS, which favors mnemonic shortcuts over F-keys) as well as the software one uses on a day-to-day basis.
- icouldntresist 3y agoHeh, "Eunuchs 69."
- donatj 3y agoI'm a bit of a sucker for UNIX layout keyboards. It's made it to the front page of Hacker News before, but I have a post about how I fell in love with the HHKB Lite back in the day (HHKB + arrow keys) [1] After this I used a Sun layout Model-M Unicomp keyboard with classic IBM style buckling springs for a while. [2] I used the aforementioned WhiteFox True Fox in the office, it's still there but we've been working from home since COVID started - I'll probably go collect it one day. In the last couple years my hands started getting arthritic, and after trying a handful of ergonomic keyboards I finally settled on a Sun Type 7 [3]. The super soft rubber dome keys are the best I have used for my arthritis. They're soft, but not mushy. Really pleasant to type on. Not only that, but it looks cool but it's got the UNIX layout that I love. I even managed to remap most of the extra left column in macOS to F13+ keys that the OS can recognize and I can use for keyboard shortcuts. I actually bought the thing from Oracle back in the day brand new. The RFQ/order process was a bit of a nightmare, they were set up to sell to major corporations, not to some dude who collects keyboards. 1. https://donatstudios.com/UNIX-Keyboards https://donatstudios.com/UNIX-Keyboards / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912184 2. https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA 3. https://i.imgur.com/PftSNnk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PftSNnk.jpg
- jwells89 3y agoAs noted in the linked page, this is very similar to the HHKB layout, which is far and away my personal favorite. This is also basically the layout I use on my 65% boards and is my second favorite. I don't really have much of a need for a left Fn or physical arrow keys. In fact for the latter I find HHKB layered arrows more comfortable, especially when using the various macOS text navigation shortcuts, because it requires notably less hand movement.
- fanf2 3y agoI used Apple keyboards for, um, about a decade, so I am very habituated to fn on the left and arrows on the right for page up / page down / home / end. I have bound fn + the asdf row to switch virtual desktops / spaces, and left fn is convenient for a one-handed space warp.
- jwells89 3y agoThat makes sense. I rarely used Fn until I bought an HHKB many years ago, and so for me it’s weird if it’s not on the right.
- boarush 3y agoYeah I must say, have got quite used to this arrangement now and this has started to feel natural to me after almost a year of using the MacBook keyboard. Kind of perfect layout for me with the full height function row with media keys and the inverted-T arrow buttons.
- amelius 3y agoMeh, no lambda key.
- Daneel_ 3y agoAs a 75% person: thanks I hate it.
- eviks 3y agoIt's not nice because it's not ergonomic
- bee_rider 3y agoIMO, move tilde back, get rid of escape and delete (anyone enthusiast enough to get a Unix keyboard uses ctrl-h and ctrl-[, right)? Now we have room to do a proper fancy return key, and fit all 4 macro buttons in the top right, so we can get page up and page down back (above the right arrow key).
- fbn79 3y agoI prefer Meta key next to A, so I can quick access a second layer
- thanatos519 3y agoThese things make sense to me, but I do other things with these locations. Caps Lock is now Compose so I can write everyone's name correctly. My GNU screen escape key is ` with `~ for a literal `. I never ever type ` because $() is the right way to do subshells. If I need to paste something with ` in it, I temporarily change this. I live in screen, even starting X11 programs from it, so this is more important than the actual Esc key!
- nikau 3y agogreat, I can save space I don't need to save at the top of the keyboard and then get to do meta key acrobatics to press function keys!
- ztetranz 3y agoPoliceman taps his shades, "Is that a Unix '69?" How bizarre
- numpad0 3y agoSo the difference between this and HHKB is (full size)arrow keys and left Fn? That's like 90% HHKB Lite2 which is HHKB but with left Fn, miniature arrows, cost effective membrane construction, for $50 discontinued. ref: https://happyhackingkb.com/jp/products/discontinued/hhkb_lite2/image/main_pc.jpg https://happyhackingkb.com/jp/products/discontinued/hhkb_lit...