5 ms·

Oh.. The poor juniors. Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring to the remote setting let's romanticize the good old ways that imho sucked. L

by x86x87 3y ago

Oh.. The poor juniors. Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring to the remote setting let's romanticize the good old ways that imho sucked. Let's cherrypick and pretend everything is fine. We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. Wr transformed the office from a place where work actually is done to a placr where we "socialize". Work? Do that on your own time.

whateverman23 3y ago
> Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. The best mentoring results for me as the mentee and for me as a mentor have been when we're sitting next to each other. The mentor can visually tell when the mentee is stuck, and mentee can tell when the mentor isn't focusing on anything important and is more willing to ask for help. No matter how many times you tell junior engineers to ping you at the first sign of trouble, they're not going to do it. They're going to toil for way longer than needed, unless you're sitting right next to each other.
- malfist 3y ago
  Who suggested checking in with juniors every 30-60 minutes? GP certainly didn't. You're arguing against a strawman.
  - whateverman23 3y ago
    Sorry I edited to include my point there. If you don't have 30-60 minute check-ins with juniors, they're not going to have the same rapid feedback that they'd get from in person mentoring. And very importantly, I'm saying 30-60 minute remote check-ins are an absolutely insane idea that should never be implemented. I don't know any kind of remote system that provides for anything even close to the power of in-person mentoring.
    - x86x87 3y ago
      Lol. Are those juniors in the room with us right now? How about letting them figure it out and provide opportunities to chat and ask questions from time to time. Everyone wants superdevelopers but everyone expects that you're going to put a complete noob in a room with a senior developer, they're gonna rub hand and in 2-4 days you're going to have another senior developer. That's not how it works.
- belval 3y ago
  I like to do virtual desk with Slack, where I will have a channel where I'm always in a huddle and they can drop by when they have questions, just like they would in-office. I have to say as a counter point though that I've had a lot more trouble with coworkers coming to my physical desk for questions that they could have Googled than with Junior getting stuck for extended period of time remotely. It's all a matter of culture and relationships.
  - pnutjam 3y ago
    100% this. Keep an open channel for IM and setup regular shadowing. I've been on both ends, learning and teaching. It's way preferable to have your own computer, shared screen vs trying to look at another screen and taking notes. Remote is better for collaboration and training. Proper documentation is a big part of it, and open channels for IM, like slack.
    - whateverman23 3y ago
      > Remote is better for collaboration and training. Oh come on... I get arguing that there are ways to make remote training good enough. Maybe even similar. Maybe even a net-positive when you look at the entire picture (including the productivity and happiness of your senior staff). But saying remote is better for training specifically? No way. That makes no logical sense.
      - pnutjam 3y ago
        Please elaborate how it's better in person? Remote: I can see and hear the person. I can see their screen. I can copy past back and forth (as can they) through the screen sharing app. I can invite others into the training pretty much instantly. I can send links and commands typed properly in the chat. User can record session for later. In person: Usually have to face the person or the screen, can't see both. I have to write down commands and pass them, or type them myself. There is a delay finding others if we need to talk to them. More chance to transpose commands incorrectly by the user. Harder to record the session without losing parts.
- throwawayfear 3y ago
  The juniors will have to read documentation and spend long hours writing and reading code and understanding what has already been built. Just like all of us who did that and had to do it in order to move up. The idea of spending time "mentoring juniors" has always ended up being an euphemism. It's just a way for non-technical people, at the end of the day, to consume as much time as possible from other people so they can pretend to be doing work. It's clear which juniors are motivated and will make the most of the mentorship and which ones are not. Some are just there for the check and you cannot compromise your senior and higher talent on people who don't want to learn and grow and just want the prestige and check of a high-tech job. It's the same situation with someone who is drowning not listening to orders and taking down their rescuer with them too. If a junior needs someone to sit next to them because they toil for way longer than needed on clear simple requirements and goals, this may not be the field for them. I never needed anyone right next to me that couldn't have been a direct message or a brief remote call to clarify something specific, clear, and to the point. You're describing a reality where the people who don't do are just trying to take as much time for themselves as possible to hide the fact that they don't want to think.
- asyx 3y ago
  It's really not an issue to have a junior bang their head against the wall for a few hours and then telling them that they should have gotten help sooner. They won't do that every single time. At some point they'll realize that asking for help isn't an issue.
- x86x87 3y ago
  Yew, if only we could assign a senior engineer to watch over every new person that joins /s Part of learning to be a sw developer is learning how to go about your work. Learning when to ask for help. If someone is doing this for you, you'll never going to learn.
  - criddell 3y ago
    Why the /s? I happen to agree with that statement. Part of being a senior engineer is to use the mentorship skills you developed along the way and make judgements about how much struggle is right. Every new person should have a more senior partner with whom they can ask the dumb questions and not be made to feel dumb.
  - commandlinefan 3y ago
    > learning how to go about your work There are whole college degree programs designed to teach this, in fact.
- lambersley 3y ago
  Agile environments are much better at this. Its inherent frequent touchpoints and "fail fast" mindset can help to ensure the juniors are getting as much information and direction as required.
- ta1243 3y ago
  > But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. We've used day long zoom windows or slack huddles. Keep muted until you want to say something. Slack is the same thing, just send a message.
- mejutoco 3y ago
  Pair programming sessions.
- lukeschlather 3y ago
  Effective use of group chat works well. The most effective remote teams, there are little conversations happening in the team Slack, often more than once per hour that can go for 5-10 minutes. Some people are bad at communicating over text but some people are also bad at communicating in person and in-person just biases for the latter, it's not inherently better. It can be helpful to hop on video but there's a ton of ways to communicate, often more effectively and less disruptively.
malfist 3y ago
To add to your point. Just because there's a tradeoff one way doesn't mean we shouldn't make that tradeoff. Yeah, there might be some impacts to junior engineers. But if it improves the efficiency of your more expensive senior devs, isn't it worth it? And just because your team has a problem with onboarding and mentoring junior devs in a remote environment doesn't mean A) Everyone has the same problem, B) you can't fix that problem yourself. Self improvement is the name of the game here anyway
eru 3y ago
> We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. People have been complaining about this development since forever. I'm not sure who that 'nobody' in your sentence is?
- grumpy_coder 3y ago
  That nobody is obviously within the people making the decisions. The people complaining were a whole different set of nobodies.
  - eru 3y ago
    There's lots of different people making different decisions for different reasons. Mark Zuckerberg might be a true believer in open plan offices (judging by his public comments). But your average Fortune 500 company might only be into it for the savings in office space expenditure to be had from cramming people tighter. And some companies, like SAP (at least when I did an internship with them ages ago), still have offices (shared amongst eg 4 people) instead of going open plan.
- x86x87 3y ago
  My point is that we are invoking this alleged benefits when it serves a narrative but just ignore it when it's convenient for the "bottom" line
  - eru 3y ago
    Who is 'we'? Different people do different things.
spike021 3y ago
Nothing about what they said is socializing.
repeekad 3y ago
I was one of those juniors, the rapid shift to remote work ruined me. I had just moved to a new city where I knew no one to start a life doing the work I loved, and all at once I got told leaving my house was dangerous and to stay home alone all day staring at a screen to keep people safe, for 2+ years… It’s great you value work life balance, but junior engineers suffered a lot (to different degrees), and you being on edge that remote work might be taken away from you is nothing compared to what I went through and haven’t recovered from. We’re allowed to love our work and the people we do it with, that’s my ideal, just a because you hate it doesn’t mean everyone should
- osigurdson 3y ago
  I can sympathize, but you should not have let it ruin you. Take responsibility for your own life.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - repeekad 3y ago
    When you’re alone, someone telling you it’s your own fault and just take responsibility for it can feel really dark
    - osigurdson 3y ago
      My apologies. I know the pandemic was particularly hard on young people. This is the problem with old, comfortable and scared people making all the decisions.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  I had the same timeline as you, but it was fine for me. Granted, I've never known anyone anywhere I've lived and barely leave home anyway. :p I'm grateful I seem optimized for the fully atomized cyberpunk existence which may only become more intense and universal in the future.
slily 3y ago
I've worked in cubicles and open space plans as well as remotely as a junior. It seems self-evident to me but maybe those who haven't experienced the various environments do not realize that in person it is much easier to ask a random question to a senior. You can poke them and have a small discussion that would flood a chatroom and take much longer to develop remotely, without feeling like you may be inconveniencing them or the rest of the team since you cannot see if they are busy, or you can follow them to the coffee machine and discuss issues that are not urgent but could use their input instead of just notifying them over chat at a random time that may or may not be convenient. Working remotely I found myself constantly wasting time trying to figure things out on my own because I don't know if people are even online/active (spread out across the globe, another issue common with remote), if they are online I don't know if they have something more important to deal with at the moment, it is more difficult to extract information from seniors who are poor communicators - as good as they may be as ICs, most of my seniors will assume I should know every undocumented internal mess and it makes asking for more details intimidating. And I don't want to look like an idiot in writing! (lol, but I do feel that way sometimes) If you want juniors to learn anything in a reasonable amount of time you have to give a bit of a shit and invest more time solely towards that especially in remote environments, seems that people just expect juniors to take the lead and force their way in though which isn't my style at all and if there isn't a common agreement and people are all just doing their thing it can come off as presumptuous to be bugging people left and right for the first months. Yes part of the problem is company culture not properly adapting to the environment, but I also haven't seen any change in the way we deal with communication since the Corona and of course seniors don't care because they got their job security.
- grumpy_coder 3y ago
  As the person you kept interrupting and following to the coffee pot, I much prefer this new way of working. To be clear, labelled as an 'IC' I have zero interest in training you. You will job hop at the first opportunity, and never lift a finger to help me in the future.
  - slily 3y ago
    With that attitude yes I'm not surprised that people would be tempted to jump ship.
dang 3y ago
Can you please make your substantive points without fulminating, snarking, or posting in the flamewar style? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- x86x87 3y ago
  I will try
  - dang 3y ago
    Thanks!

by x86x87 3y ago

whateverman23 3y ago

> Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. The best mentoring results for me as the mentee and for me as a mentor have been when we're sitting next to each other. The mentor can visually tell when the mentee is stuck, and mentee can tell when the mentor isn't focusing on anything important and is more willing to ask for help. No matter how many times you tell junior engineers to ping you at the first sign of trouble, they're not going to do it. They're going to toil for way longer than needed, unless you're sitting right next to each other.

malfist 3y ago
Who suggested checking in with juniors every 30-60 minutes? GP certainly didn't. You're arguing against a strawman.
- whateverman23 3y ago
  Sorry I edited to include my point there. If you don't have 30-60 minute check-ins with juniors, they're not going to have the same rapid feedback that they'd get from in person mentoring. And very importantly, I'm saying 30-60 minute remote check-ins are an absolutely insane idea that should never be implemented. I don't know any kind of remote system that provides for anything even close to the power of in-person mentoring.
  - x86x87 3y ago
    Lol. Are those juniors in the room with us right now? How about letting them figure it out and provide opportunities to chat and ask questions from time to time. Everyone wants superdevelopers but everyone expects that you're going to put a complete noob in a room with a senior developer, they're gonna rub hand and in 2-4 days you're going to have another senior developer. That's not how it works.
belval 3y ago
I like to do virtual desk with Slack, where I will have a channel where I'm always in a huddle and they can drop by when they have questions, just like they would in-office. I have to say as a counter point though that I've had a lot more trouble with coworkers coming to my physical desk for questions that they could have Googled than with Junior getting stuck for extended period of time remotely. It's all a matter of culture and relationships.
- pnutjam 3y ago
  100% this. Keep an open channel for IM and setup regular shadowing. I've been on both ends, learning and teaching. It's way preferable to have your own computer, shared screen vs trying to look at another screen and taking notes. Remote is better for collaboration and training. Proper documentation is a big part of it, and open channels for IM, like slack.
  - whateverman23 3y ago
    > Remote is better for collaboration and training. Oh come on... I get arguing that there are ways to make remote training good enough. Maybe even similar. Maybe even a net-positive when you look at the entire picture (including the productivity and happiness of your senior staff). But saying remote is better for training specifically? No way. That makes no logical sense.
    - pnutjam 3y ago
      Please elaborate how it's better in person? Remote: I can see and hear the person. I can see their screen. I can copy past back and forth (as can they) through the screen sharing app. I can invite others into the training pretty much instantly. I can send links and commands typed properly in the chat. User can record session for later. In person: Usually have to face the person or the screen, can't see both. I have to write down commands and pass them, or type them myself. There is a delay finding others if we need to talk to them. More chance to transpose commands incorrectly by the user. Harder to record the session without losing parts.
throwawayfear 3y ago
The juniors will have to read documentation and spend long hours writing and reading code and understanding what has already been built. Just like all of us who did that and had to do it in order to move up. The idea of spending time "mentoring juniors" has always ended up being an euphemism. It's just a way for non-technical people, at the end of the day, to consume as much time as possible from other people so they can pretend to be doing work. It's clear which juniors are motivated and will make the most of the mentorship and which ones are not. Some are just there for the check and you cannot compromise your senior and higher talent on people who don't want to learn and grow and just want the prestige and check of a high-tech job. It's the same situation with someone who is drowning not listening to orders and taking down their rescuer with them too. If a junior needs someone to sit next to them because they toil for way longer than needed on clear simple requirements and goals, this may not be the field for them. I never needed anyone right next to me that couldn't have been a direct message or a brief remote call to clarify something specific, clear, and to the point. You're describing a reality where the people who don't do are just trying to take as much time for themselves as possible to hide the fact that they don't want to think.
asyx 3y ago
It's really not an issue to have a junior bang their head against the wall for a few hours and then telling them that they should have gotten help sooner. They won't do that every single time. At some point they'll realize that asking for help isn't an issue.
x86x87 3y ago
Yew, if only we could assign a senior engineer to watch over every new person that joins /s Part of learning to be a sw developer is learning how to go about your work. Learning when to ask for help. If someone is doing this for you, you'll never going to learn.
- criddell 3y ago
  Why the /s? I happen to agree with that statement. Part of being a senior engineer is to use the mentorship skills you developed along the way and make judgements about how much struggle is right. Every new person should have a more senior partner with whom they can ask the dumb questions and not be made to feel dumb.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  > learning how to go about your work There are whole college degree programs designed to teach this, in fact.
lambersley 3y ago
Agile environments are much better at this. Its inherent frequent touchpoints and "fail fast" mindset can help to ensure the juniors are getting as much information and direction as required.
ta1243 3y ago
> But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. We've used day long zoom windows or slack huddles. Keep muted until you want to say something. Slack is the same thing, just send a message.
mejutoco 3y ago
Pair programming sessions.
lukeschlather 3y ago
Effective use of group chat works well. The most effective remote teams, there are little conversations happening in the team Slack, often more than once per hour that can go for 5-10 minutes. Some people are bad at communicating over text but some people are also bad at communicating in person and in-person just biases for the latter, it's not inherently better. It can be helpful to hop on video but there's a ton of ways to communicate, often more effectively and less disruptively.

malfist 3y ago

To add to your point. Just because there's a tradeoff one way doesn't mean we shouldn't make that tradeoff. Yeah, there might be some impacts to junior engineers. But if it improves the efficiency of your more expensive senior devs, isn't it worth it? And just because your team has a problem with onboarding and mentoring junior devs in a remote environment doesn't mean A) Everyone has the same problem, B) you can't fix that problem yourself. Self improvement is the name of the game here anyway

eru 3y ago

> We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. People have been complaining about this development since forever. I'm not sure who that 'nobody' in your sentence is?

grumpy_coder 3y ago
That nobody is obviously within the people making the decisions. The people complaining were a whole different set of nobodies.
- eru 3y ago
  There's lots of different people making different decisions for different reasons. Mark Zuckerberg might be a true believer in open plan offices (judging by his public comments). But your average Fortune 500 company might only be into it for the savings in office space expenditure to be had from cramming people tighter. And some companies, like SAP (at least when I did an internship with them ages ago), still have offices (shared amongst eg 4 people) instead of going open plan.
x86x87 3y ago
My point is that we are invoking this alleged benefits when it serves a narrative but just ignore it when it's convenient for the "bottom" line
- eru 3y ago
  Who is 'we'? Different people do different things.

spike021 3y ago

Nothing about what they said is socializing.

repeekad 3y ago

I was one of those juniors, the rapid shift to remote work ruined me. I had just moved to a new city where I knew no one to start a life doing the work I loved, and all at once I got told leaving my house was dangerous and to stay home alone all day staring at a screen to keep people safe, for 2+ years… It’s great you value work life balance, but junior engineers suffered a lot (to different degrees), and you being on edge that remote work might be taken away from you is nothing compared to what I went through and haven’t recovered from. We’re allowed to love our work and the people we do it with, that’s my ideal, just a because you hate it doesn’t mean everyone should

osigurdson 3y ago
I can sympathize, but you should not have let it ruin you. Take responsibility for your own life.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- repeekad 3y ago
  When you’re alone, someone telling you it’s your own fault and just take responsibility for it can feel really dark
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    My apologies. I know the pandemic was particularly hard on young people. This is the problem with old, comfortable and scared people making all the decisions.
shrimp_emoji 3y ago
I had the same timeline as you, but it was fine for me. Granted, I've never known anyone anywhere I've lived and barely leave home anyway. :p I'm grateful I seem optimized for the fully atomized cyberpunk existence which may only become more intense and universal in the future.

slily 3y ago

I've worked in cubicles and open space plans as well as remotely as a junior. It seems self-evident to me but maybe those who haven't experienced the various environments do not realize that in person it is much easier to ask a random question to a senior. You can poke them and have a small discussion that would flood a chatroom and take much longer to develop remotely, without feeling like you may be inconveniencing them or the rest of the team since you cannot see if they are busy, or you can follow them to the coffee machine and discuss issues that are not urgent but could use their input instead of just notifying them over chat at a random time that may or may not be convenient. Working remotely I found myself constantly wasting time trying to figure things out on my own because I don't know if people are even online/active (spread out across the globe, another issue common with remote), if they are online I don't know if they have something more important to deal with at the moment, it is more difficult to extract information from seniors who are poor communicators - as good as they may be as ICs, most of my seniors will assume I should know every undocumented internal mess and it makes asking for more details intimidating. And I don't want to look like an idiot in writing! (lol, but I do feel that way sometimes) If you want juniors to learn anything in a reasonable amount of time you have to give a bit of a shit and invest more time solely towards that especially in remote environments, seems that people just expect juniors to take the lead and force their way in though which isn't my style at all and if there isn't a common agreement and people are all just doing their thing it can come off as presumptuous to be bugging people left and right for the first months. Yes part of the problem is company culture not properly adapting to the environment, but I also haven't seen any change in the way we deal with communication since the Corona and of course seniors don't care because they got their job security.

grumpy_coder 3y ago
As the person you kept interrupting and following to the coffee pot, I much prefer this new way of working. To be clear, labelled as an 'IC' I have zero interest in training you. You will job hop at the first opportunity, and never lift a finger to help me in the future.
- slily 3y ago
  With that attitude yes I'm not surprised that people would be tempted to jump ship.

dang 3y ago

Can you please make your substantive points without fulminating, snarking, or posting in the flamewar style? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

x86x87 3y ago
I will try
- dang 3y ago
  Thanks!