8 ms·

To be frankly honest, the society humans have built over the years is pretty funny and hard to believe. I've been on this planet for just over 30 years, and si

To be frankly honest, the society humans have built over the years is pretty funny and hard to believe. I've been on this planet for just over 30 years, and since I was a little boy I was told (manipulated?) that having things, better cars, better equipment, luxury, wealth, was the right thing to do. This system produced and still produces many unhappy people, many poor and miserable people. On the other hand, it also left a lot of rich people in the middle of the road. but today, the press, big companies and the rich (multi-billionaires) accuse that, in fact, we are all to blame for our unbridled consumption (which they helped to build, by the way). Even though I'm not stupid and I'm a big believer in science and the changes are real (after all, we're seeing this in our everyday lives) it's hard not to believe that there are SOME manipulation going on again.

futureshock 3y ago
I think you are conflating different authorities and special interests into one monolith. Corporations want you to consume. Pro-business libertarians want you to consume. Environmentalists want you to draw down consumption. Authoritarians of every stripe want to tell you how to live your life and control your behavior to match their worldview. The science says that our economic system is at total odds with our biosphere and that our exponential consumption growth will come to an end. At that point, we will be forced into a new economic system. It’s an inevitability. People’s opinions and ideology can only defy reality for so long.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  Corporations want you to “consume“ because that's in their self-interest. Meanwhile nation states also want you to do that, and need you to do that because the economic system itself relies on it. In other words you have all the actual authorities on the side of consumption and the non-authorities like environmentalists on the side of non- or anti-consumption.
  - kavalg 3y ago
    And it looks like the "solution" from their point of view is that you consume less, but pay the same amount of money or even more, so that the economy keeps "growing".
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Environmentalists want you to draw down consumption. That was back in the day. Now they too want you to consume, just "green" products.
  - palata 3y ago
    Those who want you to consume green products are not environmentalists. They just hide behind it to sell their shit.
- kavalg 3y ago
  And what if corporations and government/authoritarians are (loosely) the same entity and pro-business libertarians are on a paycheck/indoctrinated :)
gmerc 3y ago
We created an autonomous system of entities running on meat CPUs with a singular non human aligned goal of profit maximization at all costs and the system has exceeded the capability of human governance which is stalled at a country / block level. It by now controls almost every single human’s everyday schedule - the entire race has been put in service of it and it extracts all resources and externalizes all the costs and by now benefits a tiny fraction of the planet primarily - but even that fraction appears to be powerless to stop it (Lol Big tech billionaires tearingly having to take responsibility and make hard cuts at times of record profits. It’s the system, even the majority Shareholder Zuck cannot escape it. ) Despite clear evidence that its continued trajectory amounts to suicide for the human race, we appear unable to stop it. And we have illusions about aligned AI. Lol.
- adamwong246 3y ago
  Everyone always wonders when the Ultron scenario will come to pass but I maintain that _the AI has already taken over_. This AI doesn't run on a computer- it runs on a machine made of laws, business interactions and human brains. This AI does not have personality, and it isn't that smart, but this algorithm is very much in charge over every human being on earth, every minute of our lives from birth to death. It seems to have no higher aspirations than grinding the bounty of our Planet into bitcoin. We made this machine that turns everything into capital and it won't stop until... what exactly? When some captain of industry has _finally_ achieved their goal of _owning it all_? Because if you follow the trend, that is where the line is headed- A ever-shrinking class of Skeksis ruling over a ruined planet, with just as many slaves, or as few, as they want.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - bentcorner 3y ago
    I've thought the same thing. Our society is a superorganism with growth and consumption as its only goal. "No raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood."
vouaobrasil 3y ago
It's not manipulation. The economic system is as simple as the game of life when it comes to the coarse understanding of why it has screwed us: * Prisoner's dilemma: New inventions give people a differential advantage over others, so everyone has to use them * We think new inventions give us an advantage because of our maladaptive instinct to gain knowledge and avoid death Hence, we have one mechanism (the prisoner's dilemma) operating on our instinct to gain wealth and power and that drives us via capitalism towards the brink of death. What we need to do is have a society-wide mentality that endless growth is bad and that our throwaway society is bad but with the momentum humanity has today, we are screwed. Of course, we'll be okay (I'm talking about people over 30), but our children will be extremely miserable. That is the karma that has accumulated every time you buy something in single-use plastic, every time you use Google and support their tech monolith, every time you drive your car, and every time you live in extreme luxury with modern technology. We cannot avoid this karma now from all this destruction we have done.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  this is why the world is ending...[1] because people like you have swallowed the propaganda line that it's about “mentality” and not the economic system itself. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-pe... [1] No, not really. Powerful people are the ones to blame.
  - vouaobrasil 3y ago
    I do think one of the major components is the economic system, I never said it wasn't. I believe a reform of the economic system will still be better than nothing, never said it wouldn't. I would like nothing more for the mechanisms to be eliminated that have made the powerful people, because they are certainly drivers in this disaster. I still believe in doing everything possible to mitigate it and changing everything we can...but let's not kid ourselves, our general mentality that makes us think short-term has also given us those powerful people...it's not like "little people" aren't to blame either. The sooner everyone acknowledges their responsibility, the better. Of course, I still think we will suffer due to what we have done but I believe in doing everyhing we can to change it. Of course, you were snarky because I was snarky at your other comment first. Tit for tat.
danbruc 3y ago
We forgot why companies - or for that matter the entire economy - exist, not to make profits and enrich the shareholders but to provide people with goods and services they need and want in an efficient way. Profits are not the goal, they are just like markets, prices, competition and many other things implementation details that are used to control the economy, the allocation and distribution of resources. The question is of course whether there is a different implementation that is better than current system. And on the other hand the people must also care about the consequences of their consumption, the best economy will ruin the planet if people demand stupid things from it.
ricardobayes 3y ago
I just watched a programme on TV that is pretty popular right now in some countries where they drop a couple of naked people into the middle of nowhere and they need to survive for 21 days. It's pretty eye-opening to be honest, to see how detached we became from nature.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  I was so disappointed when the first season of Survivor years ago was not this. "You're giving them food? And they aren't allowed to hunt? Wtf!?" Lately, I've really enjoyed Alone, specifically because it focuses on the mental struggle of pushing through failure and disappointment in (especially restricted calorie) survival scenarios. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series)
- user432678 3y ago
  Mind to tell the name, please?
  - eastof 3y ago
    There's an American show which is similar to what gp describes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_and_Afraid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_and_Afraid
- marssaxman 3y ago
  If you like that, you will probably also like "Alone".
palata 3y ago
> it's hard not to believe that there are SOME manipulation going on again Not at all, it's actually really rational. We all optimized for money for as long as we could. Because if you have more money, you can have more things and more power. Then we slowly realized that by doing that, we are killing ourselves. And we don't have much time left to save what can be saved. Now the situation is actually so bad that many people just can't face the truth and prefer to doubt it. Until they see the consequences, which will quickly go towards global instability (think billions of climate refugees), poverty and famine. Of course it's not fun. But it is pretty clear and backed by science.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > Not at all, it's actually really rational. We all optimized for money for as long as we could. Because if you have more money, you can have more things and more power. I think you missed the point. If everyone is on the same page and have the same motivation then there is no manipulation.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    > If everyone is on the same page and have the same motivation then there is no manipulation. Or the manipulation was very successful. The 401k system manipulates the working class into supporting capital class causes: through injecting liquidity, supporting policies that boost share prices, and being unsophisticated investors who never pull out of downmarkets (i.e. bag holders)
DoreenMichele 3y ago
I wouldn't call it manipulation per se. I would frame it as "The Overton Window has moved and we have new socially acceptable talking points." Talking points are never The Truth, The Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth. More nuanced discussion is not readily well-accepted and embraced in large groups -- like, say, the internet.
snarf21 3y ago
I feel it is pretty straight forward. We are just the greediest species on the planet. Greed begets power and power begets more greed. But part of the problem is that by and our large our quality of life is ever increasing. No one wants to go back to subsistance farming and bartering. That will only happen when there is literally no other choice to live. Water is going to be the most valuable resource in the coming decades in a way we can't yet contemplate. George Carlin — 'Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.'
bcrosby95 3y ago
The best things in life are free. But we're all too busy working to pay for crap to enjoy them.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  When I was a kid, the seasons were that nice free thing, now I dread them all together. Summer is just too much, and I'm scared of the winter because I love snow, and if it stops, I won't cope well with that change, it will just be too sad. I refuse to use the A/C and I'm just sitting here sweating profusely just typing. I can't see humans surviving another 20 years unless we start making some very, very radical changes.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  I don’t know what best means, but essential items are certainly not free. Once you include healthcare as an essential item, which has no upper limit, you can see the incentive to secure more resources. Can also throw in legal resources too in the event you get railroaded by the system. The desire to compete for mates is also an element, and that one is built in by nature.
unboxingelf 3y ago
They play both sides of the coin. Profit from war via defense contractors, and then profit again on the rebuild. I don’t think the environment is any different. They’ve profited by exploiting the environment and now they’re going to profit to “fix” it
themagician 3y ago
The manipulation is in what you are told to buy. Instead of actually curbing consumption you are told that you just need to buy Product X and that buying Product Y makes you a good person. All problems can be fixed if everyone just buys the right things.
pirate787 3y ago
The government is by far the largest enabler of consumption. Overall, it taxes savings and investment more aggressively than consumption. And in addition to massive government borrowing and spending, the government also directly underwrites much of the privately held debt (mortgages and student loans)
hintymad 3y ago
> I was told (manipulated?) that having things, better cars, better equipment, luxury, wealth, was the right thing to do. When I grew up, I had one pen, one mechanical pencil, one bottle of ink, and etc , at any time. They were enough, and I never felt inconvenience. Having moved to the US, I was shocked to see how many one-time things. Parents buy dozens of pencils for every kid every few months. Hundreds of god-knows-what in stores like Party City. Kids get them via goodie bags in birthday parties and then throw them away quickly. It seems, well, just too much and unnecessarily wasteful. And isn't "luxury" meant to send a message to beholders? I failed to see the need to pay for such message at all. If you're rich, you're rich. You don't need anyone else to know unless others knowing that gives you an advantage. On the other hand, I have to admit that premiere goods drastically improve the quality of life. A quiet car is much more pleasant to drive than a noisy one. An equipment that simply does not break down gives me peace of mind. A powerful air conditioner is a godsend in an extreme weather (most of the time a fan is good enough, though). The top-line MBP is certainly more enjoyable than the cheap model Boeing gave to its engineers. Frankly, I sometimes don't know where the line is.

futureshock 3y ago

I think you are conflating different authorities and special interests into one monolith. Corporations want you to consume. Pro-business libertarians want you to consume. Environmentalists want you to draw down consumption. Authoritarians of every stripe want to tell you how to live your life and control your behavior to match their worldview. The science says that our economic system is at total odds with our biosphere and that our exponential consumption growth will come to an end. At that point, we will be forced into a new economic system. It’s an inevitability. People’s opinions and ideology can only defy reality for so long.

avgcorrection 3y ago
Corporations want you to “consume“ because that's in their self-interest. Meanwhile nation states also want you to do that, and need you to do that because the economic system itself relies on it. In other words you have all the actual authorities on the side of consumption and the non-authorities like environmentalists on the side of non- or anti-consumption.
- kavalg 3y ago
  And it looks like the "solution" from their point of view is that you consume less, but pay the same amount of money or even more, so that the economy keeps "growing".
coldtea 3y ago
>Environmentalists want you to draw down consumption. That was back in the day. Now they too want you to consume, just "green" products.
- palata 3y ago
  Those who want you to consume green products are not environmentalists. They just hide behind it to sell their shit.
kavalg 3y ago
And what if corporations and government/authoritarians are (loosely) the same entity and pro-business libertarians are on a paycheck/indoctrinated :)

gmerc 3y ago

We created an autonomous system of entities running on meat CPUs with a singular non human aligned goal of profit maximization at all costs and the system has exceeded the capability of human governance which is stalled at a country / block level. It by now controls almost every single human’s everyday schedule - the entire race has been put in service of it and it extracts all resources and externalizes all the costs and by now benefits a tiny fraction of the planet primarily - but even that fraction appears to be powerless to stop it (Lol Big tech billionaires tearingly having to take responsibility and make hard cuts at times of record profits. It’s the system, even the majority Shareholder Zuck cannot escape it. ) Despite clear evidence that its continued trajectory amounts to suicide for the human race, we appear unable to stop it. And we have illusions about aligned AI. Lol.

adamwong246 3y ago
Everyone always wonders when the Ultron scenario will come to pass but I maintain that _the AI has already taken over_. This AI doesn't run on a computer- it runs on a machine made of laws, business interactions and human brains. This AI does not have personality, and it isn't that smart, but this algorithm is very much in charge over every human being on earth, every minute of our lives from birth to death. It seems to have no higher aspirations than grinding the bounty of our Planet into bitcoin. We made this machine that turns everything into capital and it won't stop until... what exactly? When some captain of industry has _finally_ achieved their goal of _owning it all_? Because if you follow the trend, that is where the line is headed- A ever-shrinking class of Skeksis ruling over a ruined planet, with just as many slaves, or as few, as they want.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bentcorner 3y ago
  I've thought the same thing. Our society is a superorganism with growth and consumption as its only goal. "No raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood."

vouaobrasil 3y ago

It's not manipulation. The economic system is as simple as the game of life when it comes to the coarse understanding of why it has screwed us: * Prisoner's dilemma: New inventions give people a differential advantage over others, so everyone has to use them * We think new inventions give us an advantage because of our maladaptive instinct to gain knowledge and avoid death Hence, we have one mechanism (the prisoner's dilemma) operating on our instinct to gain wealth and power and that drives us via capitalism towards the brink of death. What we need to do is have a society-wide mentality that endless growth is bad and that our throwaway society is bad but with the momentum humanity has today, we are screwed. Of course, we'll be okay (I'm talking about people over 30), but our children will be extremely miserable. That is the karma that has accumulated every time you buy something in single-use plastic, every time you use Google and support their tech monolith, every time you drive your car, and every time you live in extreme luxury with modern technology. We cannot avoid this karma now from all this destruction we have done.

avgcorrection 3y ago
this is why the world is ending...[1] because people like you have swallowed the propaganda line that it's about “mentality” and not the economic system itself. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-pe... [1] No, not really. Powerful people are the ones to blame.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  I do think one of the major components is the economic system, I never said it wasn't. I believe a reform of the economic system will still be better than nothing, never said it wouldn't. I would like nothing more for the mechanisms to be eliminated that have made the powerful people, because they are certainly drivers in this disaster. I still believe in doing everything possible to mitigate it and changing everything we can...but let's not kid ourselves, our general mentality that makes us think short-term has also given us those powerful people...it's not like "little people" aren't to blame either. The sooner everyone acknowledges their responsibility, the better. Of course, I still think we will suffer due to what we have done but I believe in doing everyhing we can to change it. Of course, you were snarky because I was snarky at your other comment first. Tit for tat.

danbruc 3y ago

We forgot why companies - or for that matter the entire economy - exist, not to make profits and enrich the shareholders but to provide people with goods and services they need and want in an efficient way. Profits are not the goal, they are just like markets, prices, competition and many other things implementation details that are used to control the economy, the allocation and distribution of resources. The question is of course whether there is a different implementation that is better than current system. And on the other hand the people must also care about the consequences of their consumption, the best economy will ruin the planet if people demand stupid things from it.

ricardobayes 3y ago

I just watched a programme on TV that is pretty popular right now in some countries where they drop a couple of naked people into the middle of nowhere and they need to survive for 21 days. It's pretty eye-opening to be honest, to see how detached we became from nature.

ethbr0 3y ago
I was so disappointed when the first season of Survivor years ago was not this. "You're giving them food? And they aren't allowed to hunt? Wtf!?" Lately, I've really enjoyed Alone, specifically because it focuses on the mental struggle of pushing through failure and disappointment in (especially restricted calorie) survival scenarios. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series)
user432678 3y ago
Mind to tell the name, please?
- eastof 3y ago
  There's an American show which is similar to what gp describes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_and_Afraid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_and_Afraid
marssaxman 3y ago
If you like that, you will probably also like "Alone".

palata 3y ago

> it's hard not to believe that there are SOME manipulation going on again Not at all, it's actually really rational. We all optimized for money for as long as we could. Because if you have more money, you can have more things and more power. Then we slowly realized that by doing that, we are killing ourselves. And we don't have much time left to save what can be saved. Now the situation is actually so bad that many people just can't face the truth and prefer to doubt it. Until they see the consequences, which will quickly go towards global instability (think billions of climate refugees), poverty and famine. Of course it's not fun. But it is pretty clear and backed by science.

avgcorrection 3y ago
> Not at all, it's actually really rational. We all optimized for money for as long as we could. Because if you have more money, you can have more things and more power. I think you missed the point. If everyone is on the same page and have the same motivation then there is no manipulation.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  > If everyone is on the same page and have the same motivation then there is no manipulation. Or the manipulation was very successful. The 401k system manipulates the working class into supporting capital class causes: through injecting liquidity, supporting policies that boost share prices, and being unsophisticated investors who never pull out of downmarkets (i.e. bag holders)

DoreenMichele 3y ago

I wouldn't call it manipulation per se. I would frame it as "The Overton Window has moved and we have new socially acceptable talking points." Talking points are never The Truth, The Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth. More nuanced discussion is not readily well-accepted and embraced in large groups -- like, say, the internet.

snarf21 3y ago

I feel it is pretty straight forward. We are just the greediest species on the planet. Greed begets power and power begets more greed. But part of the problem is that by and our large our quality of life is ever increasing. No one wants to go back to subsistance farming and bartering. That will only happen when there is literally no other choice to live. Water is going to be the most valuable resource in the coming decades in a way we can't yet contemplate. George Carlin — 'Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.'

bcrosby95 3y ago

The best things in life are free. But we're all too busy working to pay for crap to enjoy them.

ChatGTP 3y ago
When I was a kid, the seasons were that nice free thing, now I dread them all together. Summer is just too much, and I'm scared of the winter because I love snow, and if it stops, I won't cope well with that change, it will just be too sad. I refuse to use the A/C and I'm just sitting here sweating profusely just typing. I can't see humans surviving another 20 years unless we start making some very, very radical changes.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
I don’t know what best means, but essential items are certainly not free. Once you include healthcare as an essential item, which has no upper limit, you can see the incentive to secure more resources. Can also throw in legal resources too in the event you get railroaded by the system. The desire to compete for mates is also an element, and that one is built in by nature.

unboxingelf 3y ago

They play both sides of the coin. Profit from war via defense contractors, and then profit again on the rebuild. I don’t think the environment is any different. They’ve profited by exploiting the environment and now they’re going to profit to “fix” it

themagician 3y ago

The manipulation is in what you are told to buy. Instead of actually curbing consumption you are told that you just need to buy Product X and that buying Product Y makes you a good person. All problems can be fixed if everyone just buys the right things.

pirate787 3y ago

The government is by far the largest enabler of consumption. Overall, it taxes savings and investment more aggressively than consumption. And in addition to massive government borrowing and spending, the government also directly underwrites much of the privately held debt (mortgages and student loans)

hintymad 3y ago

> I was told (manipulated?) that having things, better cars, better equipment, luxury, wealth, was the right thing to do. When I grew up, I had one pen, one mechanical pencil, one bottle of ink, and etc , at any time. They were enough, and I never felt inconvenience. Having moved to the US, I was shocked to see how many one-time things. Parents buy dozens of pencils for every kid every few months. Hundreds of god-knows-what in stores like Party City. Kids get them via goodie bags in birthday parties and then throw them away quickly. It seems, well, just too much and unnecessarily wasteful. And isn't "luxury" meant to send a message to beholders? I failed to see the need to pay for such message at all. If you're rich, you're rich. You don't need anyone else to know unless others knowing that gives you an advantage. On the other hand, I have to admit that premiere goods drastically improve the quality of life. A quiet car is much more pleasant to drive than a noisy one. An equipment that simply does not break down gives me peace of mind. A powerful air conditioner is a godsend in an extreme weather (most of the time a fan is good enough, though). The top-line MBP is certainly more enjoyable than the cheap model Boeing gave to its engineers. Frankly, I sometimes don't know where the line is.