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Passports are not a good invention. They are a dystopian evil we grew to take for granted and even see as something that exists for our own benefit. Before WWI

Passports are not a good invention. They are a dystopian evil we grew to take for granted and even see as something that exists for our own benefit. Before WWI there were no passports and no need for them. Those were Good Old Days that are not coming back. It's weird to see some people seeing some kind of benefit in them.

pineaux 3y ago
The Gestapo popularized passports. Think about that for a while.
- nindalf 3y ago
  Hitler was a vegetarian. Think about that for a while.
dataflow 3y ago
It's not like we would have free roaming in the modern age if passports weren't a thing. People would still face travel restrictions, they'd just be more nonstandard and unpredictable. Consider how the days before passports also lacked air travel available to the masses. Even cars has only just started to become commonplace. I don't see how you could possibly have travel that is so cheap, quick, and accessible to such a large population without some way to control who is coming and leaving your country? Especially with how we're quickly making different parts of the planet inhospitable, and given how rapidly populations have risen compared to a century ago.
- andrepd 3y ago
  If only there was a pre-WWI technology that enabled people to travel quickly and comfortably over long distances... Perhaps some sort of wagon on rails :)
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
The passport is but one piece of the greater system that we have nowadays of international worldwide travel. I can get on a plane and travel pretty much anywhere in the world now, whereas before travel like that was reserved for explorers, missionaries or high ranking dignitaries. I don't think the passport is an invention itself, so to speak.
- rootsudo 3y ago
  I don't think you understand the context. Much before 1920's, you didn't need a document at all to travel anywhere. If you had the resources, you just showed up - go to the border, said hello - and that's it. Travel like that was never "reserved" for explorers, missionaries or high ranking dignitaries. If you had the money/resources, you could go anywhere. Now there is a "caste" system of countries that have Visa on Arrival, Free Entry, or Visa required where you have to prove that you are financially capable, or even wanted in the country, or promise not to work or be illegally employed/compensated. And then that alongside many countries in the developing world that still have undocumented people, no birth certificate, no identification, no tax ID, etc. How does a country verify someones birth? Especially if someone wasn't born in a hospital? In the west, until 1950's, mostly this was done via church records. Also, are you granted citizenship by birth or only through parents? (Big deal, especially for Puerto Rican births - or countries that don't recognize foreign births in their land, e.g. United Arab Emirates / Saudi Arabia - even Japan or China, where sure you can be born there, but that means absolutely nothing.) So, no, it isn't really a greater system for international worldwide travel - it is a system of control to ensure someones identity is who they are and that the country they are form atleast certified to some standard that their name, their picture, their birth date, their location of birth are somewhat tangibly real. And this isn't even getting into information sharing. The above is just a standard, that now is "machine" readable and has an RFID so that collection is more easier for the state. Context is amazing, isn't it?
  - throw__away7391 3y ago
    This simply isn't true outside of a relatively narrow window of time when very few could afford to travel anyway. Go back much past into the 1800s and beyond and you couldn't travel even within your own country without permission. In much of Europe for most of the medieval and early modern era laborers needed traveling papers granting permission just to leave their own village. In general people tended to be suspicious of visitors without a good reason to be there. Being exiled used to be quite a serious punishment.
    - rootsudo 3y ago
throw__away7391 3y ago
Travel is more free today compared to in the past, at least in for example Europe. You used to need traveling papers from your boss/master/lord granting you specific permission to travel, otherwise you could be arrested. People didn’t trust visitors in general outside of some specific circumstances.
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
so how do you keep the illegals out
inglor_cz 3y ago
"Before WWI there were no passports and no need for them." Passports are much older than that, but in pre-WWI Europe, most countries didn't require them for travel. (Russia and Turkey did.) Passports certainly do have a dystopian element to them, especially if they are demanded too frequently / aggressively. But on their own, they aren't particularly evil; they just identify you much like your face does.
nindalf 3y ago
I got the list from 50 things that made the modern economy. Maybe you’d learn something by listening to the episode on passports - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p052spyb https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p052spyb > Before WWI there were no passports and no need for them. This combination of ignorance and confidence isn’t a good look.
charlieyu1 3y ago
From Hong Kong, I have a mixed feeling for this. UK made everyone of us to apply for a Hong Kong ID since 50 years ago, but when I come to UK it is way worse because UK doesn’t have a National ID while relying on every private entity to verify your identification. So unless private collection of personal data is completely illegal, I’d rather have a centralised ID system instead

pineaux 3y ago

The Gestapo popularized passports. Think about that for a while.

nindalf 3y ago
Hitler was a vegetarian. Think about that for a while.

dataflow 3y ago

It's not like we would have free roaming in the modern age if passports weren't a thing. People would still face travel restrictions, they'd just be more nonstandard and unpredictable. Consider how the days before passports also lacked air travel available to the masses. Even cars has only just started to become commonplace. I don't see how you could possibly have travel that is so cheap, quick, and accessible to such a large population without some way to control who is coming and leaving your country? Especially with how we're quickly making different parts of the planet inhospitable, and given how rapidly populations have risen compared to a century ago.

andrepd 3y ago
If only there was a pre-WWI technology that enabled people to travel quickly and comfortably over long distances... Perhaps some sort of wagon on rails :)

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

The passport is but one piece of the greater system that we have nowadays of international worldwide travel. I can get on a plane and travel pretty much anywhere in the world now, whereas before travel like that was reserved for explorers, missionaries or high ranking dignitaries. I don't think the passport is an invention itself, so to speak.

rootsudo 3y ago
I don't think you understand the context. Much before 1920's, you didn't need a document at all to travel anywhere. If you had the resources, you just showed up - go to the border, said hello - and that's it. Travel like that was never "reserved" for explorers, missionaries or high ranking dignitaries. If you had the money/resources, you could go anywhere. Now there is a "caste" system of countries that have Visa on Arrival, Free Entry, or Visa required where you have to prove that you are financially capable, or even wanted in the country, or promise not to work or be illegally employed/compensated. And then that alongside many countries in the developing world that still have undocumented people, no birth certificate, no identification, no tax ID, etc. How does a country verify someones birth? Especially if someone wasn't born in a hospital? In the west, until 1950's, mostly this was done via church records. Also, are you granted citizenship by birth or only through parents? (Big deal, especially for Puerto Rican births - or countries that don't recognize foreign births in their land, e.g. United Arab Emirates / Saudi Arabia - even Japan or China, where sure you can be born there, but that means absolutely nothing.) So, no, it isn't really a greater system for international worldwide travel - it is a system of control to ensure someones identity is who they are and that the country they are form atleast certified to some standard that their name, their picture, their birth date, their location of birth are somewhat tangibly real. And this isn't even getting into information sharing. The above is just a standard, that now is "machine" readable and has an RFID so that collection is more easier for the state. Context is amazing, isn't it?
- throw__away7391 3y ago
  This simply isn't true outside of a relatively narrow window of time when very few could afford to travel anyway. Go back much past into the 1800s and beyond and you couldn't travel even within your own country without permission. In much of Europe for most of the medieval and early modern era laborers needed traveling papers granting permission just to leave their own village. In general people tended to be suspicious of visitors without a good reason to be there. Being exiled used to be quite a serious punishment.
  - rootsudo 3y ago

throw__away7391 3y ago

Travel is more free today compared to in the past, at least in for example Europe. You used to need traveling papers from your boss/master/lord granting you specific permission to travel, otherwise you could be arrested. People didn’t trust visitors in general outside of some specific circumstances.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

so how do you keep the illegals out

inglor_cz 3y ago

"Before WWI there were no passports and no need for them." Passports are much older than that, but in pre-WWI Europe, most countries didn't require them for travel. (Russia and Turkey did.) Passports certainly do have a dystopian element to them, especially if they are demanded too frequently / aggressively. But on their own, they aren't particularly evil; they just identify you much like your face does.

nindalf 3y ago

I got the list from 50 things that made the modern economy. Maybe you’d learn something by listening to the episode on passports - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p052spyb https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p052spyb > Before WWI there were no passports and no need for them. This combination of ignorance and confidence isn’t a good look.

charlieyu1 3y ago

From Hong Kong, I have a mixed feeling for this. UK made everyone of us to apply for a Hong Kong ID since 50 years ago, but when I come to UK it is way worse because UK doesn’t have a National ID while relying on every private entity to verify your identification. So unless private collection of personal data is completely illegal, I’d rather have a centralised ID system instead