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> But before you declare this a triumphant moment for desktop Linux, it's important to note that some of these Linux users are not, in fact, using Steam on a de

by 015a 3y ago

> But before you declare this a triumphant moment for desktop Linux, it's important to note that some of these Linux users are not, in fact, using Steam on a desktop. The Linux version "SteamOS Holo" 64-bit is the most popular reported, at just over 42 percent of the Linux slice of pie. That indicates that a huge portion of these Linux users are actually playing on Valve's Steam Deck portable, which runs Linux. There's such a deep seeded, systemic bias against linux that it actually can never win, to any degree or magnitude, because the moment it starts winning we just move the goal-posts for the flimsiest of reasons to ensure it can't quite claim that victory. Linux is obviously and clearly the most popular operating system kernel on the planet. Oh, no, that's no good a measure, servers are messy, let's refine it to most popular consumer operating system kernel? Oh... it, could also reasonably claim that title? No no, no Android, that doesn't count. Nope, No Chrome OS either, you can't have that, that's, well, that is linux, but its not. Just nice, pure, desktop linux, yes, perfect, arch linux, kde desktop, that'll never trend up and thus is the perfect new-new definition of desktop linu--wait hold up, I'm getting word this is, not possible, its actually SteamOS? Nope, kill it, that's not desktop linux either, kill it.

memefrog 3y ago
Yet the same people who do all this goalpost-shifting will also claim that it's pedantic to say GNU/Linux and that Linux is 'just a kernel'.
- Arnavion 3y ago
  Not the same people, no.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    It is funny how people put everybody in the same bag. There are many kind of linux users, and many reason to use linux. We don't all agree on the why and the how, which is one of the reason there are so many linux based OSes/distros. And that is fine.
deaddodo 3y ago
I agree with your complaint on the specific topic at hand. Whether the installed linux users are on Steam Deck or Desktop Linux, it matters not. It's a boon to the ecosystem in general and any specific differences in their distribution so minor as to be insignificant. As to your latter point, you're just muddying the topic. Marketshare/netshare metrics are subdivided as they are because most people viewing those reports don't care what their web server, handwatch, video game console, etc use. They care what OS the computers people actually interface with runs; mostly for targeting reasons.
omnicognate 3y ago
> deep seeded Deep seated. https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/deep-seated-deep-seeded-usage https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/deep-seated-deep-see...
- marcosscriven 3y ago
  It’s called an Eggcorn, apparently. https://youtu.be/F12LSAbos7A https://youtu.be/F12LSAbos7A
  - NateEag 3y ago
    The more-formal, older name for it is "mondegreen": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen
    - dahart 3y ago
      This WP article and parent’s video are both fun, I enjoyed this momentary rabbit hole. The video above claims there’s a difference between a Mondegreens and Eggcorns, which is that Eggcorns are mis-heard phrases that have the same meaning as the original, while Mondegreens change the meaning. Plus the video has a clip of the ‘Mondegreen’ song sung with a strong Scottish accent - check it out if you didn’t make it that far!
johnnyanmac 3y ago
I guess it really depends on what you expect out of a "user". I think servers and Android count but I think SteamOS is a bit tricky, because it's relying on a compatibility layers running Windows to run most games. This may not matter to the end user, but it isn't quite the developer revelation many imagine where suddenly tons of games and apps have a proper linux port.
- zarzavat 3y ago
  Is that any different developer tools not supporting Windows and Windows users using WSL? We would still classify these as Windows users despite the compatibility layer. Ultimately compatibility layers are good because they reduce developer workload so that developers can focus on what really matters.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >Is that any different developer tools not supporting Windows and Windows users using WSL? excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? I can only imagine some internal enterprise tooling doing this. >Ultimately compatibility layers are good because they reduce developer workload so that developers can focus on what really matters I don't mind them as a concept, but I personally want as few points of failure between me and my software as possible. Some software is already either overly bloated or buggy (or both) as is without wondering if there's now compatibility layer issues on top of it.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      > excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? I can only imagine some internal enterprise tooling doing this. At all, or well? Because git works on Windows, but it's meaningfully slow as a result of NT and unix having very different ideas about how filesystems should work.
    - pxc 3y ago
      > excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? Semgrep is one that I use at work. Nix is another. Docker¹ is a third. Many terminal emulators support multiple operating systems, but not Windows. Windows support also often lags for new programming languages. Golang didn't run on Windows at first. Crystal is only now starting to have full-fledged Windows support. Plus there are many tools that do run on Windows but work poorly or are extremely slow or require tons of compatibility shims, like Git and Emacs. A lot of dev tools are Unix-first. You just probably use only a few of them if you work at a Microsoft shop. -- Not Docker itself at this point but 99.9% of all Docker containers that anyone actually uses.
yieldcrv 3y ago
Are you sure thats what that emotion is? I thought it was relevant information and could predict it was probably steam deck. The newer generations of users are not computer literate, they use user friendly computers. It was not a conscious decision based on the OS it runs on. The people that care about OS - specifically linux - dominance are not those users.
dizhn 3y ago
When eventually Linux is undeniably #1, the rhetoric will be "the OS you run does not matter". We're almost already there with browser based apps and completely dumbed down mobile devices so they might even have a point.
jmkni 3y ago
The Linux community does this themselves as well, tell a Linux enthusiast how much you like Ubuntu and watch their eyes roll as if to say “that doesn’t count”
- majewsky 3y ago
  I would like to continue moving the goalposts and rebrand this particular type of "Linux enthusiast" to "douchebag". Signed, a Linux enthusiast.
SllX 3y ago
> There's such a deep seeded, systemic bias against linux that it actually can never win Probably the reason it can never “win” is because it’s an operating system kernel. It’s software. You know what can win? People. Companies. In competition with each other. The Linux Foundation wins all the time when it gets contributions of code, money and capital. Valve wins all the time when people buy Steam Decks. Microsoft wins all the time when someone spins up a Linux server instance on Azure. Users when all the time when their Linux systems do the things they want it to. But yeah, Linux never wins. Never can, never will. The same is true for Windows and Mac OS X and FreeBSD though, and postulating that a piece of an operating system code base can “win” or “lose” is the linguistic trap that sniped millions of nerds for over three decades. There’s no scorekeeper in this game.
voidr 3y ago
If we just counted the kernel, then it is possible that Minix could be the most popular "OS" because it's burnt into every Intel CPU, however it's probably not a helpful metric. If we equate Android with Linux, we can also say that MacOS is the most popular mobile operating system because iOS uses the same kernel as MacOS. I consider 2 things to be the same OS if they can natively run the same unmodified binary files and if we look at it this way, Linux is on a losing streak: - I cannot download an app on Android and run it on Debian - I cannot compile a program on one version of the same distro and run it on another version of the same distro The moment I will be able to compile a program that runs on both Arch and Android, we can start adding the stats up, however I doubt tis will happen anytime soon looking at the poor attempts at fixing this.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  >I cannot download an app on Android and run it on Debian Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. > I cannot compile a program on one version of the same distro and run it on another version of the same distro Yes you can for the most part (unless it uses a capability provided by a newer kernel which is super rare and mostly limited to system tools, and less for "apps"). Actually that is what makes containers and flatpak possible. It even works accross different distros as long as cpu arch is the same.
  - maccard 3y ago
    > Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. If I have to go and install one, I can do that on Windows.
    - nullindividual 3y ago
      Microsoft even supplies the subsystem [0]. [0] https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/android/wsa/ https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/android/wsa/
  - voidr 3y ago
    > Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. I can also download VirtualBox and run all Windows programs, that would mean that all Windows apps are Linux apps? > Yes you can for the most part You can't statically link glibc: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/issues/3392 https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/issues/3392 glibc can break stuff: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/08/valve-dev-understandably-not-happy-about-glibc-breaking-easy-anti-cheat-on-linux/page=5/ https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/08/valve-dev-understandab... I had binaries break because the newer version if openssl was put under a slightly different name.
handmadeta 3y ago
I am not sure it's a matter of bias. Instead, I think it's that "Linux" is an overloaded term. One sense is that someone downloads and installs a "Linux" distro because they actually want to use "GNU+Linux" (wink). The other sense, what you are aluding, to is that linux is foundational to most things IT. If I subscribe to DSL the provider is probably going to send me a modem that runs linux. But that doesn't mean I chose linux. I just wanted DSL. Same for Android. Most people that use Android didn't choose a linux-based mobile operating system. They want Android or are just using whats one the phone they wanted. And indeed, I don't think many "GNU+Linux" people would tolerate the specific essense of Android in their distros. Now, SteamOS might be the bridge between these two worlds. On the one hand, Steam Deck users also didn't chose Linux. But then, the resources that Valve can spend on enabling gaming on Linux because of the success of Steam Deck means that many more people, like me, can finally consider choosing Linux.
- dizhn 3y ago
  I agree with this assessment but the same two senses exist for Iphones and Macs too. To some extent it is even the same with Windows. A lot of people just buy _a_ laptop. They don't even know what an operating system is.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    They know to the extent of the applications they need to use, when accessing goverment sites, and if it doesn't work it is broken, from their point of view. Having said this, the local library from my German city does run on GNU/Linux.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative. In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison. Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us. > GNU+Linux no.
forrestthewoods 3y ago
"Claim victory" is just something for dorks (myself included) to argue about on the internet. It doesn't matter to any one, in any way. Linux "won" the server. Linux has not "won" the consumer desktop/laptop gaming market. SteamOS is super interesting. Does it count as Linux? Yes and no? Depends on your goalpost! If I were shipping a game today I would 100% support SteamDeck and SteamOS. I'd maybe provide support via Win32 emulation, or maybe native. I'd probably stick to Win32 and only do native if needed for performance. But I would 1000% NOT claim to support "Linux". I would support SteamDeck and that's it. If any user reported a bug or issue on other Linux distros then I would close the bug as "not supported". If it works, cool. If it doesn't, that's cool too. You're entirely on your own. Supporting one Linux distro on one piece of hardware is pretty easy. Supporting all the Linux flavors on all possible hardware configurations is a bloody nightmare. And it's radically harder than supporting Windows across all hardware configurations. And it's definitely not worth it to increase sales by ~0.5% or so. Take from that what you will.
- account42 3y ago
  > Supporting all the Linux flavors on all possible hardware configurations is a bloody nightmare. And it's radically harder than supporting Windows across all hardware configurations. Not at all.
troupo 3y ago
> because the moment it starts winning we just move the goal-posts for the flimsiest of reasons to ensure it can't quite claim that victory. Funnily enough these goalposts were actively moved by Linux proponents themselves. Because whenever there's a criticism of Linux, it turns out that the system in question is not a true Linux... because reasons. > Linux is obviously and clearly the most popular operating system kernel on the planet. It is. I don't think anyone is denying that. > No no, no Android, that doesn't count. Nope, No Chrome OS either, you can't have that, that's, well, that is linux, but its not. This has been the argument of Linux proponents (many of them) for years. > Just nice, pure, desktop linux, yes, perfect, arch linux, kde desktop I've seen multiple claims that Ubuntu is not the true Linux. From people using Arch, or Gentoo, or...
highwaylights 3y ago
Another way to look at this is to say that the massive uptick in Steam Deck users is really good for the future of Linux gaming given that if current trends continue with the next version of the Steam Deck it may well get to the point where it becomes worth it for developers to focus on native Linux builds rather than being Proton compatible. Especially in cases where Unreal / Unity takes most of the heavy lifting away anyway. I'm not overly optimistic given that the biggest barrier to supporting Linux has always been how much variance there is in terms of what's out there, but it's still a good thing for Linux. In terms of perceptions of desktop Linux I don't really think it matters. Linux isn't going anywhere and as software probably has more penetration right now than any other operating system ever has.
- GoofballJones 3y ago
  Yeah, that's what I'm thinking that it's the Steam Deck that's skewing these. Which is fine. Both Linux and MacOS are dwarfed by Windows. The weird thing is, for me personally, is that of all the games I collected over there years when I did Windows gaming, many of them are now Apple Silicon native. Sure, the big ones like Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises aren't there, but many others are. Even the brand-new Baldur's Gate 3 is on Apple Silicon. No Man's Sky is now too. I'm not a big gamer anymore, but it's just interesting to see.
  - mmis1000 3y ago
    There is a problem unique to linux. The linux don't have a stable userspace runtime environment agreed by all parties. Every distro decides their own. This is both a gift and a curse. The pros of deciding your own runtime environment allows you to customize the system more and even run Linux on machine that has very strict resource limit. The cons is that it is almost impossible to run a software everywhere without bundle literally anything you use into own binary. The steam itself do it(steam runtime), but I don't know if it is even close to a complete resolution because it don't really solve the problem for softwares outside of steam.
- account42 3y ago
  > I'm not overly optimistic given that the biggest barrier to supporting Linux has always been how much variance there is in terms of what's out there, but it's still a good thing for Linux. Nope. The biggest barrier is the FUD around there being so much variance. 99% of desktop Linux is glibc-based. Beyond that, binary compatibility is no harder than Windows. Differrent yes, meaning devs used to Windows have some learning to do, but not drastically different even.
fvdessen 3y ago
The reason why we tend to only consider 'real' desktop OS such as Windows or OSX is that those are the generalists platform where content is produced and work is being done. The others are special purpose devices
- metaphor 3y ago
  ...never mind that the Steam Deck has an entirely capable desktop mode[1], and people are indeed using it[2]. [1] https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-323C https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-32... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/12sgnw7/what_do_yall_use_desktop_mode_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/12sgnw7/what_do_...
  - Etherlord87 3y ago
    Can I launch Blender there and will the experience be comfortable?
    - metaphor 3y ago
      Apparently[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2m-TpHtg2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2m-TpHtg2U
    - andybak 3y ago
      Yes assuming you use an external keyboard, mouse and probably a display (unless your eyesight is a lot better than mine). You could probably get away without the mouse if you're ok with touchpad usage. But YMMV.
      - Etherlord87 3y ago
        Yes, but similarly you could connect a computer screen to a server. The idea behind separating desktop computers is, as mentioned above, that it is a particular platform a lot of us are interested in. I imagine neither me or you are typing these comments on a server or a Steam Deck.
tgv 3y ago
It's just not desktop. That's all. Linux as the base OS for desktop word processing, etc. has not succeeded, even though it was the OG dream of the Linux community. Linux as the OS to run WINE ... weird case. But it's simply not relevant. Linux is a success in its own right. So much better than Windows on a server. And the desktop is losing relevance (but it might bounce back when you least expect it).
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FeepingCreature 3y ago
Okay, I'll push back against this and say it's actually true for Android, because phone kernels only rarely contribute improvements upstream, so while they're growing the userbase they aren't really improving any ecosystem but their own. I don't think that's the case for SteamOS though.
- lolinder 3y ago
  I think you're just proving OP's point. Linux is FOSS, which means it has a bewildering variety of different Linuxes with different characteristics. They're all still Linux, but they're not homogeneous like Windows so none of them meet everyone's platonic ideal of Linux. It's likely the only thing everyone can agree is Linux is whatever Linus has on his machine.
  - ric2b 3y ago
    > It's likely the only thing everyone can agree is Linux is whatever Linus has on his machine. What if he has more than one computer and doesn't have the same setup on all of them?
eska 3y ago
The meme has always been”(current year) is the year of Linux on the desktop!” so I don’t feel like any goalposts are being shifted
- fsflover 3y ago
  Year of Linux Desktop is here, if you want to use it. Just choose hardware with it preinstalled.
pjmlp 3y ago
Yet, even Valve could not convince game studios publishing on Android to port their games into GNU/Linux, they have to emulate Windows and DirectX instead for "Linux" games.
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  Why didn't Nintendo start porting their games to Windows when emulators became capable of playing Switch games?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Because it doesn't suit their business model to sell in other platforms, outside some exceptional cases like Pokemon Go?
Gareth321 3y ago
We don't include Xbox users in Windows stats, even though it uses the Windows kernel. We generally put single-use devices into their own boxes when discussing gaming OSs.
- fsflover 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36997311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36997311
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    Side thought: If Microsoft thought there was a market for booting an Xbox into Windows they would sell it already. (Windows for Xbox for Workgroups 2H13) There was a working, officially supported Miracast app on the Xbox One for a while and I used that for a screen extender of a Windows 10 Phone and a laptop for a few years before the app stopped working. I think it stopped working only because no one was using it.
- deleted 3y ago
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o1y32 3y ago
I don't know what the complaint is about. Read after me: desktop Linux. Not clear? Again, desktop Linux. I think that is abundantly clear what counts and what doesn't.
- piaste 3y ago
  Do laptops count as desktops?
- fsflover 3y ago
  Does my Librem 5 smartphone running PureOS GNU/Linux [0] and desktop apps count as desktop Linux? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureOS
- SSLy 3y ago
  Under such ontology, the midi-tower standing on wheels beside my desk isn't a desktop, right?
  - InfamousRece 3y ago
    Correct. It must literally be positioned on top of your desk to be counted as desktop.
bbstats 3y ago
The point is that it's not pre-existing Linux users.
- fsflover 3y ago
  Aren't new Linux users even better than pre-existing ones?
diebeforei485 3y ago
> triumphant moment for desktop Linux This is in reference to the "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme. I don't consider Steam Deck to be a general-purpose desktop computer.
- lolinder 3y ago
  There are people here using their Steam Deck to post on HN in its Desktop Mode. It comes with Python and you can install VS Code. It plays PC games, which has long been a hallmark of the desktop experience. What's missing? The stuck-in-one-place tower?
  - eldaisfish 3y ago
    just because the embedded computer on your fridge can run doom, doesn't make your fridge a console. Same reasoning with the steam deck - just because you can access the linux desktop underneath, doesn't mean the device was designed with that use case in mind.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      Does your fridge have a Desktop Mode with KDE already installed, complete with manufacturer-provided documentation on how to use it? https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-323C https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-32...
    - gpderetta 3y ago
      I can't connect my fridge to a keyboard, mouse and screen and seamlessly use it as a desktop. I'm doing exactly that with a Steam Deck. I'll be going out of town for the next few week and instead of carrying a laptop to WFH, I'm just taking my SD and a keyboard with me.
poulpy123 3y ago
yeah that's stupid. We can discuss if Android is a real linux OS or another OS based on a linux kernel, but there is absolutely no doubt that steam OS is a linux OS with a customized windows manager
slim 3y ago
it's a joke running for 20 years maintained by the most radical linux fanatics :)
arp242 3y ago
"Steam Deck" is clearly not "Desktop Linux", just like Android isn't, or PlayStation isn't "Desktop FreeBSD". It's reasonable to make these distinctions. No one was talking about "operating system kernels".
- red_trumpet 3y ago
  Yes, Steam Deck is Desktop Linux. It runs a Linux Desktop[1], which you can easily switch to. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-use-desktop-mode-on-the-steam-deck/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-use-desktop-m...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghusto 3y ago
    My TV runs WebOS. So I'm a WebOS user? Nobody will care that it can run in desktop mode, until people start using that as their daily driver. Spoiler: That's not a thing that will happen.
    - metaphor 3y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37003241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37003241
- emerongi 3y ago
  If KDE isn't Desktop Linux, I don't know what is. It's not "vanilla", but so isn't Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora Sericea, or whatever else. The underlying stack is the same, there's just customizations on top.
  - arp242 3y ago
    You can run all sorts of things on all sorts of things, but the Steam Deck clearly isn't a desktop machine, and isn't intended or widely used for desktop type stuff. This seems so obvious I don't even know how to explain it. "Yes, but technically ..." isn't meaningful.
sdfignaionio 3y ago
I don't count ChromeOS or Android because they're even more locked down than Windows or the Macintosh. I don't care about the Linux desktop. I care about people using a system they can control. If FreeBSD got substantial market share that would be a victory. ChromeOS gaining market share, and especially being used in education, is a defeat.
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egypturnash 3y ago
This is in reference to a meme that has been around since the days when Slashdot was the king of tech news sites. "The Year Of Linux On The Desktop" has been just around the corner for all this time and is still not here. Or is it? Whether or not we have come close to TYOLOTD depends on how you define "The Desktop". If "The Desktop" is a metaphor for "the hands of the non-specialist user who doesn't even call their device 'a computer" then yeah, it's doing great. The Deck is a major step forwards in that, it wraps up Steam's entire catalog of Windows games into a nice little bubble of virtualization that varies in seamlessness depending on how new the game is. If you define it as a desktop computer, it's nowhere near that. Most people who sit down at a a desk with a large screen to do work that involves multiple windows and a mouse pointer are still sitting in front of a box that's running Windows or MacOS. Those two operating systems still dominate that domain, as well as the world of people popping open a laptop to do windows-and-pointer work away from their office. Linux keeps nibbling at that domain, and the work Valve did on their fork of WINE to get fifty bazillion Windows games running on this handheld Linux device is probably going to help take some bigger bites. But what do people go buy when they want A Computer? When you answer that with "Linux", that's The Year Of Linux On The Desktop.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > But what do people go buy when they want A Computer? When you answer that with "Linux", that's The Year Of Linux On The Desktop. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36892852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36892852
ho_schi 3y ago
I wouldn’t label Google/Android as GNU/Linux. Neither MacOS as UNIX. Nor ChromeOS as GNU/Linux. Why? Linux is the shorthand for GNU/Linux. SteamOS is actually Archlinux which is a mere Linux. Archlinux can be considered as clean sheet Linux, they avoid patching and modifications if possible. So probably even the FSF people would accept it as GNU/Linux? Even more. The SteamDeck is using a X86_64 CPU and RDNA2 GPU. No hidden firmware locks. So it is an IBM-PC. It counts therefore 100% as Linux. I would even say 120% because it comes pre-installed.
- deleted 3y ago
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- Zambyte 3y ago
  > Linux is the shorthand for GNU/Linux. It shouldn't be. For the same reasons you would shorten TCP/IP to TCP, you should shorten GNU/Linux to GNU. This avoids all of the confusion about what is "really Linux", because when people say that they actually mean GNU.
  - tiledjinn 3y ago
    it's ubiquitous to shorten TCP/IP to TCP in the context of it not being UDP
    - Zambyte 3y ago
      Exactly. It should also be ubiquitous to shorten GNU/Linux to GNU in the context of not being Android, Alpine, or other Linux-based operating systems.
  - eru 3y ago
    There's now at least one Linux distribution that kicks out all the Gnu stuff. See https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/13/chimera_non_gnu_linux/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/13/chimera_non_gnu_linux...
    - Zambyte 3y ago
jcarrano 3y ago
Android does not count because it's userspace is completely different and in practice it cannot be modified or easily run on different hardware. Same for Chrome OS. SteamOS on the other hand is an actual GNU/Linux distribution that can be installed in any machine and any improvements that Steam does, e.g. to 3d drivers or hardware support, will benefit the entire desktop Linux ecosystem.
jrm4 3y ago
So, I teach an intro to IT class and honestly, I like the fact that I can simply state the truth with no blowback: Linux is the dominant operating system in tech, moreso when you include a fuzzy, but reasonable, definition -- I like to say "Linux-ish." Kids, literally everything you encounter that isn't Windows is "Linux-ish." Apple has found ways to make their flavor of "Linux-ish" more exclusive and that has drawbacks. In fact, each company naturally tries to figure out how they can best make money for themselves and you can judge them how you want -- but the core of this is this thing called "free and open source software," where basically everyone agrees to (or it just makes more sense to) use this stuff that's shared and out there. You can use this as your desktop too, if you like. Here's how.
aalimov_ 3y ago
> There's such a deep seeded, systemic bias against linux that it actually can never win, to any degree or magnitude, because the moment it starts winning we just move the goal-posts for the flimsiest of reasons to ensure it can't quite claim that victory. Win what? It’s wildly popular in some environments, and it’s getting more popular in others. I think it’s a waste your energy to get worked up over who’s giving Linux “proper recognition”…
DCKing 3y ago
I don't think this is that unfair at all? What people are invested in is Linux desktop popularity. The old Windows vs Linux (desktop) thing. The Linux desktop has somewhat of a muddier definition than other desktops, but it's whatever free desktop stack people use - Gnome, KDE, or whatever other X.org/Freedesktop based stack people use. If Linux is only popular on Android, Chromebooks, SteamOS, servers, embedded devices it strongly suggests to me that people are perfectly content with using Linux as long as they don't have to use the Linux desktop. (I know it's available on the Deck, but it's not the primary UI for it). The Steam Linux numbers used to be indicative of Linux desktop popularity. If their large rise now is in large part due to the Steam Deck, that doesn't quite mean that the Linux desktop is getting popular. So it seems this is a totally fair nuance to me?
conor- 3y ago
I think once Valve ships an installable ISO of Arch Linux-based SteamOS 3.0 you'll start seeing an uptick of people installing it on their desktop gaming PCs. There seems to be a rising sentiment of discontent with Windows 11 and the general direction Windows is heading. There's been positive coverage of SteamDeck and the new SteamOS that is driving previously skeptical people towards being open to trying out Linux for gaming and as a general desktop OS.
ghusto 3y ago
Let's be fair; when we say "desktop Linux", none of us think "a dedicated games console which uses Linux to run Steam, occasionally running the desktop mode to make something in Steam easier (like emulation)". Obviously it only would count if it were "daily Linux users, running Steam".
kelnos 3y ago
I dunno, I don't see this as bias or as anything nefarious. When I read the headline, my first thought was "huh, that seems unlikely; I wonder if they are counting Steam Deck users in that". Frankly I just don't see it as an interesting metric. "More Steam games are played on Steam Deck (+ desktop Linux) than on macOS." So what? Even though the Steam Deck blurs the lines a bit, I don't consider desktop gaming and console/handheld gaming to be directly comparable. Or at least, I don't consider comparing them in this way to be interesting. Just as I don't think "Linux is the most used OS kernel on the planet" to be all that interesting. Ok, it's interesting in a certain, narrow way. Obviously its use in mobile/embedded devices and servers dwarfs its use on the desktop. If we want to compare "OS choice on servers" or "OS choice on mobile devices", that's notable. But when we're talking about gaming, and we want to compare "desktop macOS gamers" to other things, the only other things I think are relevant are "desktop Windows gamers" and "desktop Linux gamers". If Steam-using desktop Linux gamers were surpassing Steam-using desktop macOS gamers, that would be huge, important news! But a bunch of people buying a Steam Deck and raising the number of people gaming on the Linux kernel is, to me, no more interesting than saying there are a ton of people playing games on the Linux kernel because there are a ton of people who game on Android phones. Whoop-de-do, film at 11. (Full disclosure: I'm a desktop Linux user, and have been for over 20 years.)
phendrenad2 3y ago
None of that matters, though. All that matters, is if this satisfies someone who wants "a triumphant moment for desktop Linux". And I'd say, no, no it does not.
PaulHoule 3y ago
You can hardly say Android represents the value of freedom that Linux offers, to the contrary, it is the first platform to get Web Environment Integrity, hopefully the only. Stem Deck, in the other hand, is relatively free.

by 015a 3y ago

memefrog 3y ago

Yet the same people who do all this goalpost-shifting will also claim that it's pedantic to say GNU/Linux and that Linux is 'just a kernel'.

Arnavion 3y ago
Not the same people, no.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  It is funny how people put everybody in the same bag. There are many kind of linux users, and many reason to use linux. We don't all agree on the why and the how, which is one of the reason there are so many linux based OSes/distros. And that is fine.

deaddodo 3y ago

I agree with your complaint on the specific topic at hand. Whether the installed linux users are on Steam Deck or Desktop Linux, it matters not. It's a boon to the ecosystem in general and any specific differences in their distribution so minor as to be insignificant. As to your latter point, you're just muddying the topic. Marketshare/netshare metrics are subdivided as they are because most people viewing those reports don't care what their web server, handwatch, video game console, etc use. They care what OS the computers people actually interface with runs; mostly for targeting reasons.

omnicognate 3y ago

> deep seeded Deep seated. https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/deep-seated-deep-seeded-usage https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/deep-seated-deep-see...

marcosscriven 3y ago
It’s called an Eggcorn, apparently. https://youtu.be/F12LSAbos7A https://youtu.be/F12LSAbos7A
- NateEag 3y ago
  The more-formal, older name for it is "mondegreen": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen
  - dahart 3y ago
    This WP article and parent’s video are both fun, I enjoyed this momentary rabbit hole. The video above claims there’s a difference between a Mondegreens and Eggcorns, which is that Eggcorns are mis-heard phrases that have the same meaning as the original, while Mondegreens change the meaning. Plus the video has a clip of the ‘Mondegreen’ song sung with a strong Scottish accent - check it out if you didn’t make it that far!

johnnyanmac 3y ago

I guess it really depends on what you expect out of a "user". I think servers and Android count but I think SteamOS is a bit tricky, because it's relying on a compatibility layers running Windows to run most games. This may not matter to the end user, but it isn't quite the developer revelation many imagine where suddenly tons of games and apps have a proper linux port.

zarzavat 3y ago
Is that any different developer tools not supporting Windows and Windows users using WSL? We would still classify these as Windows users despite the compatibility layer. Ultimately compatibility layers are good because they reduce developer workload so that developers can focus on what really matters.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Is that any different developer tools not supporting Windows and Windows users using WSL? excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? I can only imagine some internal enterprise tooling doing this. >Ultimately compatibility layers are good because they reduce developer workload so that developers can focus on what really matters I don't mind them as a concept, but I personally want as few points of failure between me and my software as possible. Some software is already either overly bloated or buggy (or both) as is without wondering if there's now compatibility layer issues on top of it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    > excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? I can only imagine some internal enterprise tooling doing this. At all, or well? Because git works on Windows, but it's meaningfully slow as a result of NT and unix having very different ideas about how filesystems should work.
  - pxc 3y ago
    > excuse my ignorance, but are there any major developer tools that don't support Windows? Semgrep is one that I use at work. Nix is another. Docker¹ is a third. Many terminal emulators support multiple operating systems, but not Windows. Windows support also often lags for new programming languages. Golang didn't run on Windows at first. Crystal is only now starting to have full-fledged Windows support. Plus there are many tools that do run on Windows but work poorly or are extremely slow or require tons of compatibility shims, like Git and Emacs. A lot of dev tools are Unix-first. You just probably use only a few of them if you work at a Microsoft shop. -- Not Docker itself at this point but 99.9% of all Docker containers that anyone actually uses.

yieldcrv 3y ago

Are you sure thats what that emotion is? I thought it was relevant information and could predict it was probably steam deck. The newer generations of users are not computer literate, they use user friendly computers. It was not a conscious decision based on the OS it runs on. The people that care about OS - specifically linux - dominance are not those users.

dizhn 3y ago

When eventually Linux is undeniably #1, the rhetoric will be "the OS you run does not matter". We're almost already there with browser based apps and completely dumbed down mobile devices so they might even have a point.

jmkni 3y ago

The Linux community does this themselves as well, tell a Linux enthusiast how much you like Ubuntu and watch their eyes roll as if to say “that doesn’t count”

majewsky 3y ago
I would like to continue moving the goalposts and rebrand this particular type of "Linux enthusiast" to "douchebag". Signed, a Linux enthusiast.

SllX 3y ago

> There's such a deep seeded, systemic bias against linux that it actually can never win Probably the reason it can never “win” is because it’s an operating system kernel. It’s software. You know what can win? People. Companies. In competition with each other. The Linux Foundation wins all the time when it gets contributions of code, money and capital. Valve wins all the time when people buy Steam Decks. Microsoft wins all the time when someone spins up a Linux server instance on Azure. Users when all the time when their Linux systems do the things they want it to. But yeah, Linux never wins. Never can, never will. The same is true for Windows and Mac OS X and FreeBSD though, and postulating that a piece of an operating system code base can “win” or “lose” is the linguistic trap that sniped millions of nerds for over three decades. There’s no scorekeeper in this game.

voidr 3y ago

If we just counted the kernel, then it is possible that Minix could be the most popular "OS" because it's burnt into every Intel CPU, however it's probably not a helpful metric. If we equate Android with Linux, we can also say that MacOS is the most popular mobile operating system because iOS uses the same kernel as MacOS. I consider 2 things to be the same OS if they can natively run the same unmodified binary files and if we look at it this way, Linux is on a losing streak: - I cannot download an app on Android and run it on Debian - I cannot compile a program on one version of the same distro and run it on another version of the same distro The moment I will be able to compile a program that runs on both Arch and Android, we can start adding the stats up, however I doubt tis will happen anytime soon looking at the poor attempts at fixing this.

prmoustache 3y ago
>I cannot download an app on Android and run it on Debian Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. > I cannot compile a program on one version of the same distro and run it on another version of the same distro Yes you can for the most part (unless it uses a capability provided by a newer kernel which is super rare and mostly limited to system tools, and less for "apps"). Actually that is what makes containers and flatpak possible. It even works accross different distros as long as cpu arch is the same.
- maccard 3y ago
  > Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. If I have to go and install one, I can do that on Windows.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    Microsoft even supplies the subsystem [0]. [0] https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/android/wsa/ https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/android/wsa/
- voidr 3y ago
  > Yes you can on the android emulator. The biggest issue is compu arch in that case. I can also download VirtualBox and run all Windows programs, that would mean that all Windows apps are Linux apps? > Yes you can for the most part You can't statically link glibc: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/issues/3392 https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/issues/3392 glibc can break stuff: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/08/valve-dev-understandably-not-happy-about-glibc-breaking-easy-anti-cheat-on-linux/page=5/ https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/08/valve-dev-understandab... I had binaries break because the newer version if openssl was put under a slightly different name.

handmadeta 3y ago

I am not sure it's a matter of bias. Instead, I think it's that "Linux" is an overloaded term. One sense is that someone downloads and installs a "Linux" distro because they actually want to use "GNU+Linux" (wink). The other sense, what you are aluding, to is that linux is foundational to most things IT. If I subscribe to DSL the provider is probably going to send me a modem that runs linux. But that doesn't mean I chose linux. I just wanted DSL. Same for Android. Most people that use Android didn't choose a linux-based mobile operating system. They want Android or are just using whats one the phone they wanted. And indeed, I don't think many "GNU+Linux" people would tolerate the specific essense of Android in their distros. Now, SteamOS might be the bridge between these two worlds. On the one hand, Steam Deck users also didn't chose Linux. But then, the resources that Valve can spend on enabling gaming on Linux because of the success of Steam Deck means that many more people, like me, can finally consider choosing Linux.

dizhn 3y ago
I agree with this assessment but the same two senses exist for Iphones and Macs too. To some extent it is even the same with Windows. A lot of people just buy _a_ laptop. They don't even know what an operating system is.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  They know to the extent of the applications they need to use, when accessing goverment sites, and if it doesn't work it is broken, from their point of view. Having said this, the local library from my German city does run on GNU/Linux.
arghwhat 3y ago
At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative. In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison. Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us. > GNU+Linux no.

forrestthewoods 3y ago

"Claim victory" is just something for dorks (myself included) to argue about on the internet. It doesn't matter to any one, in any way. Linux "won" the server. Linux has not "won" the consumer desktop/laptop gaming market. SteamOS is super interesting. Does it count as Linux? Yes and no? Depends on your goalpost! If I were shipping a game today I would 100% support SteamDeck and SteamOS. I'd maybe provide support via Win32 emulation, or maybe native. I'd probably stick to Win32 and only do native if needed for performance. But I would 1000% NOT claim to support "Linux". I would support SteamDeck and that's it. If any user reported a bug or issue on other Linux distros then I would close the bug as "not supported". If it works, cool. If it doesn't, that's cool too. You're entirely on your own. Supporting one Linux distro on one piece of hardware is pretty easy. Supporting all the Linux flavors on all possible hardware configurations is a bloody nightmare. And it's radically harder than supporting Windows across all hardware configurations. And it's definitely not worth it to increase sales by ~0.5% or so. Take from that what you will.

account42 3y ago
> Supporting all the Linux flavors on all possible hardware configurations is a bloody nightmare. And it's radically harder than supporting Windows across all hardware configurations. Not at all.

troupo 3y ago

> because the moment it starts winning we just move the goal-posts for the flimsiest of reasons to ensure it can't quite claim that victory. Funnily enough these goalposts were actively moved by Linux proponents themselves. Because whenever there's a criticism of Linux, it turns out that the system in question is not a true Linux... because reasons. > Linux is obviously and clearly the most popular operating system kernel on the planet. It is. I don't think anyone is denying that. > No no, no Android, that doesn't count. Nope, No Chrome OS either, you can't have that, that's, well, that is linux, but its not. This has been the argument of Linux proponents (many of them) for years. > Just nice, pure, desktop linux, yes, perfect, arch linux, kde desktop I've seen multiple claims that Ubuntu is not the true Linux. From people using Arch, or Gentoo, or...

highwaylights 3y ago

Another way to look at this is to say that the massive uptick in Steam Deck users is really good for the future of Linux gaming given that if current trends continue with the next version of the Steam Deck it may well get to the point where it becomes worth it for developers to focus on native Linux builds rather than being Proton compatible. Especially in cases where Unreal / Unity takes most of the heavy lifting away anyway. I'm not overly optimistic given that the biggest barrier to supporting Linux has always been how much variance there is in terms of what's out there, but it's still a good thing for Linux. In terms of perceptions of desktop Linux I don't really think it matters. Linux isn't going anywhere and as software probably has more penetration right now than any other operating system ever has.

GoofballJones 3y ago
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking that it's the Steam Deck that's skewing these. Which is fine. Both Linux and MacOS are dwarfed by Windows. The weird thing is, for me personally, is that of all the games I collected over there years when I did Windows gaming, many of them are now Apple Silicon native. Sure, the big ones like Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises aren't there, but many others are. Even the brand-new Baldur's Gate 3 is on Apple Silicon. No Man's Sky is now too. I'm not a big gamer anymore, but it's just interesting to see.
- mmis1000 3y ago
  There is a problem unique to linux. The linux don't have a stable userspace runtime environment agreed by all parties. Every distro decides their own. This is both a gift and a curse. The pros of deciding your own runtime environment allows you to customize the system more and even run Linux on machine that has very strict resource limit. The cons is that it is almost impossible to run a software everywhere without bundle literally anything you use into own binary. The steam itself do it(steam runtime), but I don't know if it is even close to a complete resolution because it don't really solve the problem for softwares outside of steam.
account42 3y ago
> I'm not overly optimistic given that the biggest barrier to supporting Linux has always been how much variance there is in terms of what's out there, but it's still a good thing for Linux. Nope. The biggest barrier is the FUD around there being so much variance. 99% of desktop Linux is glibc-based. Beyond that, binary compatibility is no harder than Windows. Differrent yes, meaning devs used to Windows have some learning to do, but not drastically different even.

fvdessen 3y ago

The reason why we tend to only consider 'real' desktop OS such as Windows or OSX is that those are the generalists platform where content is produced and work is being done. The others are special purpose devices

metaphor 3y ago
...never mind that the Steam Deck has an entirely capable desktop mode[1], and people are indeed using it[2]. [1] https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-323C https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-32... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/12sgnw7/what_do_yall_use_desktop_mode_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/12sgnw7/what_do_...
- Etherlord87 3y ago
  Can I launch Blender there and will the experience be comfortable?
  - metaphor 3y ago
    Apparently[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2m-TpHtg2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2m-TpHtg2U
  - andybak 3y ago
    Yes assuming you use an external keyboard, mouse and probably a display (unless your eyesight is a lot better than mine). You could probably get away without the mouse if you're ok with touchpad usage. But YMMV.
    - Etherlord87 3y ago
      Yes, but similarly you could connect a computer screen to a server. The idea behind separating desktop computers is, as mentioned above, that it is a particular platform a lot of us are interested in. I imagine neither me or you are typing these comments on a server or a Steam Deck.

tgv 3y ago

It's just not desktop. That's all. Linux as the base OS for desktop word processing, etc. has not succeeded, even though it was the OG dream of the Linux community. Linux as the OS to run WINE ... weird case. But it's simply not relevant. Linux is a success in its own right. So much better than Windows on a server. And the desktop is losing relevance (but it might bounce back when you least expect it).

deleted 3y ago

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FeepingCreature 3y ago

Okay, I'll push back against this and say it's actually true for Android, because phone kernels only rarely contribute improvements upstream, so while they're growing the userbase they aren't really improving any ecosystem but their own. I don't think that's the case for SteamOS though.

lolinder 3y ago
I think you're just proving OP's point. Linux is FOSS, which means it has a bewildering variety of different Linuxes with different characteristics. They're all still Linux, but they're not homogeneous like Windows so none of them meet everyone's platonic ideal of Linux. It's likely the only thing everyone can agree is Linux is whatever Linus has on his machine.
- ric2b 3y ago
  > It's likely the only thing everyone can agree is Linux is whatever Linus has on his machine. What if he has more than one computer and doesn't have the same setup on all of them?

eska 3y ago

The meme has always been”(current year) is the year of Linux on the desktop!” so I don’t feel like any goalposts are being shifted

fsflover 3y ago
Year of Linux Desktop is here, if you want to use it. Just choose hardware with it preinstalled.

pjmlp 3y ago

Yet, even Valve could not convince game studios publishing on Android to port their games into GNU/Linux, they have to emulate Windows and DirectX instead for "Linux" games.

washadjeffmad 3y ago
Why didn't Nintendo start porting their games to Windows when emulators became capable of playing Switch games?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Because it doesn't suit their business model to sell in other platforms, outside some exceptional cases like Pokemon Go?

Gareth321 3y ago

We don't include Xbox users in Windows stats, even though it uses the Windows kernel. We generally put single-use devices into their own boxes when discussing gaming OSs.

fsflover 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36997311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36997311
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Side thought: If Microsoft thought there was a market for booting an Xbox into Windows they would sell it already. (Windows for Xbox for Workgroups 2H13) There was a working, officially supported Miracast app on the Xbox One for a while and I used that for a screen extender of a Windows 10 Phone and a laptop for a few years before the app stopped working. I think it stopped working only because no one was using it.
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o1y32 3y ago

I don't know what the complaint is about. Read after me: desktop Linux. Not clear? Again, desktop Linux. I think that is abundantly clear what counts and what doesn't.

piaste 3y ago
Do laptops count as desktops?
fsflover 3y ago
Does my Librem 5 smartphone running PureOS GNU/Linux [0] and desktop apps count as desktop Linux? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureOS
SSLy 3y ago
Under such ontology, the midi-tower standing on wheels beside my desk isn't a desktop, right?
- InfamousRece 3y ago
  Correct. It must literally be positioned on top of your desk to be counted as desktop.

bbstats 3y ago

The point is that it's not pre-existing Linux users.

fsflover 3y ago
Aren't new Linux users even better than pre-existing ones?

diebeforei485 3y ago

> triumphant moment for desktop Linux This is in reference to the "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme. I don't consider Steam Deck to be a general-purpose desktop computer.

lolinder 3y ago
There are people here using their Steam Deck to post on HN in its Desktop Mode. It comes with Python and you can install VS Code. It plays PC games, which has long been a hallmark of the desktop experience. What's missing? The stuck-in-one-place tower?
- eldaisfish 3y ago
  just because the embedded computer on your fridge can run doom, doesn't make your fridge a console. Same reasoning with the steam deck - just because you can access the linux desktop underneath, doesn't mean the device was designed with that use case in mind.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Does your fridge have a Desktop Mode with KDE already installed, complete with manufacturer-provided documentation on how to use it? https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-323C https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/671A-4453-E8D2-32...
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    I can't connect my fridge to a keyboard, mouse and screen and seamlessly use it as a desktop. I'm doing exactly that with a Steam Deck. I'll be going out of town for the next few week and instead of carrying a laptop to WFH, I'm just taking my SD and a keyboard with me.

poulpy123 3y ago

yeah that's stupid. We can discuss if Android is a real linux OS or another OS based on a linux kernel, but there is absolutely no doubt that steam OS is a linux OS with a customized windows manager

slim 3y ago

it's a joke running for 20 years maintained by the most radical linux fanatics :)

arp242 3y ago

"Steam Deck" is clearly not "Desktop Linux", just like Android isn't, or PlayStation isn't "Desktop FreeBSD". It's reasonable to make these distinctions. No one was talking about "operating system kernels".

red_trumpet 3y ago
Yes, Steam Deck is Desktop Linux. It runs a Linux Desktop[1], which you can easily switch to. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-use-desktop-mode-on-the-steam-deck/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-use-desktop-m...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ghusto 3y ago
  My TV runs WebOS. So I'm a WebOS user? Nobody will care that it can run in desktop mode, until people start using that as their daily driver. Spoiler: That's not a thing that will happen.
  - metaphor 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37003241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37003241
emerongi 3y ago
If KDE isn't Desktop Linux, I don't know what is. It's not "vanilla", but so isn't Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora Sericea, or whatever else. The underlying stack is the same, there's just customizations on top.
- arp242 3y ago
  You can run all sorts of things on all sorts of things, but the Steam Deck clearly isn't a desktop machine, and isn't intended or widely used for desktop type stuff. This seems so obvious I don't even know how to explain it. "Yes, but technically ..." isn't meaningful.

sdfignaionio 3y ago

I don't count ChromeOS or Android because they're even more locked down than Windows or the Macintosh. I don't care about the Linux desktop. I care about people using a system they can control. If FreeBSD got substantial market share that would be a victory. ChromeOS gaining market share, and especially being used in education, is a defeat.

deleted 3y ago

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egypturnash 3y ago

This is in reference to a meme that has been around since the days when Slashdot was the king of tech news sites. "The Year Of Linux On The Desktop" has been just around the corner for all this time and is still not here. Or is it? Whether or not we have come close to TYOLOTD depends on how you define "The Desktop". If "The Desktop" is a metaphor for "the hands of the non-specialist user who doesn't even call their device 'a computer" then yeah, it's doing great. The Deck is a major step forwards in that, it wraps up Steam's entire catalog of Windows games into a nice little bubble of virtualization that varies in seamlessness depending on how new the game is. If you define it as a desktop computer, it's nowhere near that. Most people who sit down at a a desk with a large screen to do work that involves multiple windows and a mouse pointer are still sitting in front of a box that's running Windows or MacOS. Those two operating systems still dominate that domain, as well as the world of people popping open a laptop to do windows-and-pointer work away from their office. Linux keeps nibbling at that domain, and the work Valve did on their fork of WINE to get fifty bazillion Windows games running on this handheld Linux device is probably going to help take some bigger bites. But what do people go buy when they want A Computer? When you answer that with "Linux", that's The Year Of Linux On The Desktop.

fsflover 3y ago
> But what do people go buy when they want A Computer? When you answer that with "Linux", that's The Year Of Linux On The Desktop. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36892852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36892852

ho_schi 3y ago

I wouldn’t label Google/Android as GNU/Linux. Neither MacOS as UNIX. Nor ChromeOS as GNU/Linux. Why? Linux is the shorthand for GNU/Linux. SteamOS is actually Archlinux which is a mere Linux. Archlinux can be considered as clean sheet Linux, they avoid patching and modifications if possible. So probably even the FSF people would accept it as GNU/Linux? Even more. The SteamDeck is using a X86_64 CPU and RDNA2 GPU. No hidden firmware locks. So it is an IBM-PC. It counts therefore 100% as Linux. I would even say 120% because it comes pre-installed.

deleted 3y ago
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Zambyte 3y ago
> Linux is the shorthand for GNU/Linux. It shouldn't be. For the same reasons you would shorten TCP/IP to TCP, you should shorten GNU/Linux to GNU. This avoids all of the confusion about what is "really Linux", because when people say that they actually mean GNU.
- tiledjinn 3y ago
  it's ubiquitous to shorten TCP/IP to TCP in the context of it not being UDP
  - Zambyte 3y ago
    Exactly. It should also be ubiquitous to shorten GNU/Linux to GNU in the context of not being Android, Alpine, or other Linux-based operating systems.
- eru 3y ago
  There's now at least one Linux distribution that kicks out all the Gnu stuff. See https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/13/chimera_non_gnu_linux/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/13/chimera_non_gnu_linux...
  - Zambyte 3y ago

jcarrano 3y ago

Android does not count because it's userspace is completely different and in practice it cannot be modified or easily run on different hardware. Same for Chrome OS. SteamOS on the other hand is an actual GNU/Linux distribution that can be installed in any machine and any improvements that Steam does, e.g. to 3d drivers or hardware support, will benefit the entire desktop Linux ecosystem.

jrm4 3y ago

So, I teach an intro to IT class and honestly, I like the fact that I can simply state the truth with no blowback: Linux is the dominant operating system in tech, moreso when you include a fuzzy, but reasonable, definition -- I like to say "Linux-ish." Kids, literally everything you encounter that isn't Windows is "Linux-ish." Apple has found ways to make their flavor of "Linux-ish" more exclusive and that has drawbacks. In fact, each company naturally tries to figure out how they can best make money for themselves and you can judge them how you want -- but the core of this is this thing called "free and open source software," where basically everyone agrees to (or it just makes more sense to) use this stuff that's shared and out there. You can use this as your desktop too, if you like. Here's how.

aalimov_ 3y ago

> There's such a deep seeded, systemic bias against linux that it actually can never win, to any degree or magnitude, because the moment it starts winning we just move the goal-posts for the flimsiest of reasons to ensure it can't quite claim that victory. Win what? It’s wildly popular in some environments, and it’s getting more popular in others. I think it’s a waste your energy to get worked up over who’s giving Linux “proper recognition”…

DCKing 3y ago

I don't think this is that unfair at all? What people are invested in is Linux desktop popularity. The old Windows vs Linux (desktop) thing. The Linux desktop has somewhat of a muddier definition than other desktops, but it's whatever free desktop stack people use - Gnome, KDE, or whatever other X.org/Freedesktop based stack people use. If Linux is only popular on Android, Chromebooks, SteamOS, servers, embedded devices it strongly suggests to me that people are perfectly content with using Linux as long as they don't have to use the Linux desktop. (I know it's available on the Deck, but it's not the primary UI for it). The Steam Linux numbers used to be indicative of Linux desktop popularity. If their large rise now is in large part due to the Steam Deck, that doesn't quite mean that the Linux desktop is getting popular. So it seems this is a totally fair nuance to me?

conor- 3y ago

I think once Valve ships an installable ISO of Arch Linux-based SteamOS 3.0 you'll start seeing an uptick of people installing it on their desktop gaming PCs. There seems to be a rising sentiment of discontent with Windows 11 and the general direction Windows is heading. There's been positive coverage of SteamDeck and the new SteamOS that is driving previously skeptical people towards being open to trying out Linux for gaming and as a general desktop OS.

ghusto 3y ago

Let's be fair; when we say "desktop Linux", none of us think "a dedicated games console which uses Linux to run Steam, occasionally running the desktop mode to make something in Steam easier (like emulation)". Obviously it only would count if it were "daily Linux users, running Steam".

kelnos 3y ago

I dunno, I don't see this as bias or as anything nefarious. When I read the headline, my first thought was "huh, that seems unlikely; I wonder if they are counting Steam Deck users in that". Frankly I just don't see it as an interesting metric. "More Steam games are played on Steam Deck (+ desktop Linux) than on macOS." So what? Even though the Steam Deck blurs the lines a bit, I don't consider desktop gaming and console/handheld gaming to be directly comparable. Or at least, I don't consider comparing them in this way to be interesting. Just as I don't think "Linux is the most used OS kernel on the planet" to be all that interesting. Ok, it's interesting in a certain, narrow way. Obviously its use in mobile/embedded devices and servers dwarfs its use on the desktop. If we want to compare "OS choice on servers" or "OS choice on mobile devices", that's notable. But when we're talking about gaming, and we want to compare "desktop macOS gamers" to other things, the only other things I think are relevant are "desktop Windows gamers" and "desktop Linux gamers". If Steam-using desktop Linux gamers were surpassing Steam-using desktop macOS gamers, that would be huge, important news! But a bunch of people buying a Steam Deck and raising the number of people gaming on the Linux kernel is, to me, no more interesting than saying there are a ton of people playing games on the Linux kernel because there are a ton of people who game on Android phones. Whoop-de-do, film at 11. (Full disclosure: I'm a desktop Linux user, and have been for over 20 years.)

phendrenad2 3y ago

None of that matters, though. All that matters, is if this satisfies someone who wants "a triumphant moment for desktop Linux". And I'd say, no, no it does not.

PaulHoule 3y ago

You can hardly say Android represents the value of freedom that Linux offers, to the contrary, it is the first platform to get Web Environment Integrity, hopefully the only. Stem Deck, in the other hand, is relatively free.