8 ms·

I have no idea how I would install EasyOS in my hypervisor. Well, I could probably boot from a Live linux ISO and then install it from there. And on actual har

by tjoff 3y ago

I have no idea how I would install EasyOS in my hypervisor. Well, I could probably boot from a Live linux ISO and then install it from there. And on actual hardware I can mount an ISO over IPMI but I would not immediately be able to install EasyOS that way. Also, the argument that you can store state isn't always an advantage. When I boot a Live ISO I never ever want to save anything, a clean state is one of the features of a Live ISO. I don't know what EasyOS is, and it is for sure possible that it lives in a niche where it never makes sense to have an ISO. But I don't get the crusade against ISO. >There are some multi-boot tools, that enable putting many ISO files on the one USB-stick; however, the ISO format does not have any intrinsic avantage, these boot managers could also be made to boot image files. Well, they don't. Maybe that ought to be a hint?

burnte 3y ago
Agreed. The author is discounting the ease of use argument, which frankly is the last argument you should make, especially when the cost is effectively ZERO. Frequently good enough is really good enough.
dale_glass 3y ago
Seems easy. Import it as a disk image, and that's it. I just tried under libvirt. It doesn't work as a virtual CD, so just add a virtio disk and point it at the image.
- tjoff 3y ago
  For sure when that works that is easy. I don't have that option and don't know how common it is in actual hypervisors and not desktop VM software.
  - yellowapple 3y ago
    If it works for libvirt then that's at least one pathway for an "actual hypervisor" (in this case KVM).
marcosdumay 3y ago
Well, the article is correct that there is nothing unique to ISO on your comment. You can achieve all of that with an EXT-4 or NTFS filesystem too. Our tooling evolves in some strange ways. The only reason you want an ISO is because some software insists that it can't use a simpler FS the same way. It's like the software that insisted on saving things into floppy drivers even after no computer had them anymore. Of course, that software existing may be a good reason for the author to keep the ISO packaging. Or maybe not, I have no idea what is his context. But what you describe is a deficiency on your software, and not any intrinsic benefit from ISOs.
- tjoff 3y ago
  Obviously, but with that logic the only unique thing with his solution is that it doesn't work well in the software ecosystem of our time. Not a great selling point. It is more than fine to opt at not supporting ISO, but the arguments put forward for this crusade are not convincing.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > the arguments put forward for this crusade are not convincing. I agree. They read like "I don't want the additional work of creating ISOs" to me. Which, honestly, is plenty good justification for not making them on its own. There's no need for further justification.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Why wouldn't it work well with your software ecosystem. All hypervisors allow booting from a disk image. If not you wouldn't be able to boot your installed OS!
- theamk 3y ago
  ISO is great at keeping things immutable - most OSes auto-mount inserted USB sticks r/w by default, so your ext4 USB rescue stick cam be broken by one accidental mouse drag, or by a typo in "rm" command. And even if you fix one OS to not mount it r/w, it will still happen if you insert into your friend's PC. On the other hand, ISO is guaranteed to be immutable, you need some real effort to break it.
bragr 3y ago
I skimmed the docs for multiple hypervisors (qemu, vmware, virtual box, hyper-v), it looks like only Qemu can directly boot the raw image, but everything else can convert the raw image to a native format and then boot it. It does take an extra, often command line only step to get it booting though which is less than ideal.
- tjoff 3y ago
  Assuming you even have access to the storage repository where your disk images reside. Which you don't immediately do in many cases. Yes, for sure it can be done. But unless you have a habit of doing it it is likely going to be much quicker to boot from a live ISO and do it from there. And by then it all seems rather ridiculous.
- anonymousiam 3y ago
  This is a feature of QEMU and not the raw image itself. Most hypervisors have a preferred image format. The two most popular ones for QEMU are qcow2 and raw. Others such as vdi and vhdx can be easily created with the qemu-img tool, which allows easy conversion between image formats. I've successfully run the same raw image in QEMU, VirtualBox, HyperV, and VmWare just by converting it and booting it.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Never heard of EasyOS either so I looked it up. It's definitely in a pretty interesting niche: In a traditional "full" installation, the filesystem occupies an entire partition, with the usual /etc, /bin, /usr, /proc, /sys, /tmp, etc. Easy does not install like this. Easy installs to hard drive in what we call frugal mode, which occupies just one folder in a partition, allowing to co-exist with whatever else the partition is used for. Installation is so simple: Just copy three files 'vmlinuz', 'initrd' and 'easy.sfs' into a folder in any ext4 partition, and that's it, Easy is installed. All that remains is to create an entry in the boot manager. [1] Generally seems to be a highly stripped down, security focused Linux distro. No systemd, polkit, or even PAM. Heavily container oriented. Feels a bit like a lighter alternative to Qubes OS. [1]: https://easyos.org/about/how-and-why-easyos-is-different.html https://easyos.org/about/how-and-why-easyos-is-different.htm...
- yellowapple 3y ago
  So basically the same deal as Tiny Core Linux, then.
rezonant 3y ago
> Well, they don't. Maybe that ought to be a hint? The author was saying that these tools already do support booting image files, not that they could be modified by the tool authors to add support.
dicytea 3y ago
While this article claims that it works with Ventoy, recent posts (by the same author himself) suggests that things aren't so clear and sunny: https://bkhome.org/news/202303/easyos-455-does-not-work-with-ventoy-either.html https://bkhome.org/news/202303/easyos-455-does-not-work-with... A good final half of the article is spent on blaming Ventoy's developers and users for holding it "wrong". And here I am left still wondering what is so bad about ISOs.
eptcyka 3y ago
Your hypervisor can boot from any file with bytes in it that the bootloader will handle. There's no dependency on the file being in ISO format.

by tjoff 3y ago

burnte 3y ago

Agreed. The author is discounting the ease of use argument, which frankly is the last argument you should make, especially when the cost is effectively ZERO. Frequently good enough is really good enough.

dale_glass 3y ago

Seems easy. Import it as a disk image, and that's it. I just tried under libvirt. It doesn't work as a virtual CD, so just add a virtio disk and point it at the image.

tjoff 3y ago
For sure when that works that is easy. I don't have that option and don't know how common it is in actual hypervisors and not desktop VM software.
- yellowapple 3y ago
  If it works for libvirt then that's at least one pathway for an "actual hypervisor" (in this case KVM).

marcosdumay 3y ago

Well, the article is correct that there is nothing unique to ISO on your comment. You can achieve all of that with an EXT-4 or NTFS filesystem too. Our tooling evolves in some strange ways. The only reason you want an ISO is because some software insists that it can't use a simpler FS the same way. It's like the software that insisted on saving things into floppy drivers even after no computer had them anymore. Of course, that software existing may be a good reason for the author to keep the ISO packaging. Or maybe not, I have no idea what is his context. But what you describe is a deficiency on your software, and not any intrinsic benefit from ISOs.

tjoff 3y ago
Obviously, but with that logic the only unique thing with his solution is that it doesn't work well in the software ecosystem of our time. Not a great selling point. It is more than fine to opt at not supporting ISO, but the arguments put forward for this crusade are not convincing.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > the arguments put forward for this crusade are not convincing. I agree. They read like "I don't want the additional work of creating ISOs" to me. Which, honestly, is plenty good justification for not making them on its own. There's no need for further justification.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  Why wouldn't it work well with your software ecosystem. All hypervisors allow booting from a disk image. If not you wouldn't be able to boot your installed OS!
theamk 3y ago
ISO is great at keeping things immutable - most OSes auto-mount inserted USB sticks r/w by default, so your ext4 USB rescue stick cam be broken by one accidental mouse drag, or by a typo in "rm" command. And even if you fix one OS to not mount it r/w, it will still happen if you insert into your friend's PC. On the other hand, ISO is guaranteed to be immutable, you need some real effort to break it.

bragr 3y ago

I skimmed the docs for multiple hypervisors (qemu, vmware, virtual box, hyper-v), it looks like only Qemu can directly boot the raw image, but everything else can convert the raw image to a native format and then boot it. It does take an extra, often command line only step to get it booting though which is less than ideal.

tjoff 3y ago
Assuming you even have access to the storage repository where your disk images reside. Which you don't immediately do in many cases. Yes, for sure it can be done. But unless you have a habit of doing it it is likely going to be much quicker to boot from a live ISO and do it from there. And by then it all seems rather ridiculous.
anonymousiam 3y ago
This is a feature of QEMU and not the raw image itself. Most hypervisors have a preferred image format. The two most popular ones for QEMU are qcow2 and raw. Others such as vdi and vhdx can be easily created with the qemu-img tool, which allows easy conversion between image formats. I've successfully run the same raw image in QEMU, VirtualBox, HyperV, and VmWare just by converting it and booting it.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

Never heard of EasyOS either so I looked it up. It's definitely in a pretty interesting niche: In a traditional "full" installation, the filesystem occupies an entire partition, with the usual /etc, /bin, /usr, /proc, /sys, /tmp, etc. Easy does not install like this. Easy installs to hard drive in what we call frugal mode, which occupies just one folder in a partition, allowing to co-exist with whatever else the partition is used for. Installation is so simple: Just copy three files 'vmlinuz', 'initrd' and 'easy.sfs' into a folder in any ext4 partition, and that's it, Easy is installed. All that remains is to create an entry in the boot manager. [1] Generally seems to be a highly stripped down, security focused Linux distro. No systemd, polkit, or even PAM. Heavily container oriented. Feels a bit like a lighter alternative to Qubes OS. [1]: https://easyos.org/about/how-and-why-easyos-is-different.html https://easyos.org/about/how-and-why-easyos-is-different.htm...

yellowapple 3y ago
So basically the same deal as Tiny Core Linux, then.

rezonant 3y ago

> Well, they don't. Maybe that ought to be a hint? The author was saying that these tools already do support booting image files, not that they could be modified by the tool authors to add support.

dicytea 3y ago

While this article claims that it works with Ventoy, recent posts (by the same author himself) suggests that things aren't so clear and sunny: https://bkhome.org/news/202303/easyos-455-does-not-work-with-ventoy-either.html https://bkhome.org/news/202303/easyos-455-does-not-work-with... A good final half of the article is spent on blaming Ventoy's developers and users for holding it "wrong". And here I am left still wondering what is so bad about ISOs.

eptcyka 3y ago

Your hypervisor can boot from any file with bytes in it that the bootloader will handle. There's no dependency on the file being in ISO format.