8 ms·

Windows 8 is leaky. Tablet paradigms leak into mouse and keyboard interfaces. It extremely confusing. There is no clean cut, no mode switch. I understand the a

by ugh 15y ago

Windows 8 is leaky. Tablet paradigms leak into mouse and keyboard interfaces. It extremely confusing. There is no clean cut, no mode switch. I understand the abstract principle behind it, but that does not help. Two examples I noticed when fooling around with it. Nothing major, but they illustrate the problem very well. This is using a default and clean install of the consumer preview: So you boot it up and are presented with a big image that displays the time and nothing else. Clicking just makes the image hop, you actually have to swipe upwards (with the mouse!) to be allowed to log in. You see this PDF in the Explorer and double click it. A Metro app launches and removes all UI elements you just saw and are used to. There is no way to close it on screen, nowhere to click to get out of it. You have to know about the hot corners or keyboard shortcuts to get out of it. Even then: It’s a jarring transition between two completely different UI paradigms. That is no fun even if you know how to get out of it, even if you know that it’s supposed to be that way. All of this would be fine if normal Windows apps were on their way out. If we all were to ditch our mice. If the Desktop were only there for compatibility reasons, to run those old apps no one is going to use in a year or two anyway. Only, even Microsoft doesn’t seem to be on that path. It looks like Office will not be a Metro app, for example. I don’t want to see Windows 8 fail. Metro is incredibly cool for tablets and phones. (Windows 7 also was incredibly great – for Windows – as a desktop OS. It works really well.) It’s really awesome! But I’m not sure about the Metro and old Windows UI hodgepodge. I just can’t convince myself that touch interfaces work well with the mouse. It’s just not fun to swipe with a mouse. And interfaces which are fun to use with swipes and taps are not necessarily fun to use with a mouse. (The reverse is obviously also true.) All the Metro apps seem like incredibly cool tablet apps. I can see that I would have a lot of fun with them on my iPad. The Store is also cool and very well integrated. But with a mouse? In such a leaky environment? Where the mouse user is confronted with touch interfaces over and over? What Microsoft is doing is incredibly brave. That alone deserves recognition. But I really can’t see it succeeding. Maybe I’m wrong.

_mayo 15y ago
On the lock screen you can hit any key and the image will slide up and reveal the log in dialog. I do agree though, the issue that Windows 8 seems to suffer from is it's not that intuitive on a desktop. My biggest issue is there seems to be no indication of the hot corners when you first begin to use it, and even when they are activated, they feel finicky (especially the 'recent apps' pane on the left).
- ugh 15y ago
  Any key on the keyboard but you have to slide up (swipe, basically) with a mouse instead of just clicking? I get it that it makes sense on tablets as a lock screen, but on desktops? Ok, I’m going to call that a bug and ignore it. It’s easy to fix and no big deal in the grand scheme of things. Even with that changed and the hotcorners indicated, the hodgepodge stays, though. The hotcorners are only the tip of the iceberg, what you notice immediately. (Or, rather, not at all, like me, who figured out to use the Windows key pretty quickly – but still after some confusion – but didn’t find the hotcorners for a long time after that. I can totally identify with the guy in the video. I wasn’t quite as helpless, but close and I’m young and grew up with that stuff.)
  - dpark 15y ago
    > Any key on the keyboard but you have to slide up (swipe, basically) with a mouse instead of just clicking? You can also scroll the mousewheel.
- TeMPOraL 15y ago
  When testing with a friend, we had to Google up a video after spending like half an hour trying to find a way to shut down the system. Looks nice, but definitely not intuitive on desktop :(.
  - gbrhaz 15y ago
    I agree - shutting down and quitting a Metro app were the first two things that annoyed me. I shouldn't have to go through 5-6 clicks just to shut down the computer. I thought we had that issue already with Vista, where the default "shut down" option was set to Sleep or something, rather than Shut Down? Microsoft should learn from their mistakes.
    - marshray 15y ago
      Ever hear the "stateful UI is bad; on/off is a state" UI design principle? My Macbook-using friends tell me there's no way to close the lid without suspending it. There was an influential blog post years ago documenting the 11 or so ways to shutdown Vista. More than likely someone is reciting the "multiple ways bad" mantra. I'm surprised UI designers let us shut down our computers at all.
sounds 15y ago
Serious question: if Microsoft is convinced of the "Post-PC" meme, so Metro is the future — and the Start Menu is in the trash — then office work should be done on an iPad. So what's the disconnect? I'll give my opinion at the bottom. You've pointed at the leaky tablet paradigm, but let's just assume Office takes a year to catch up to Windows. That's historically been the case. "Normal" windows apps should be phased out rapidly and Metro everywhere should become the new Windows UI. Since when has real office productivity needed a Tablet UI? It seems obvious to me that the iPad (and iPhone) are for casual use or travel. It may be productive to review sales figures, or tweak the wording in the presentation, while on the plane. Anything more requires a keyboard in my opinion. The physical difference between the iPad and a keyboard is the primary reason I think office workers will hate Metro. Second to that I see them hating Metro because they just want to "get stuff done." Metro lacks the streamlining that the old apps have taken years to achieve. Instead of being able to add a formula with one click, you have to learn a whole new set of interface tricks. Microsoft wants a quick success. So Metro will probably get ditched for something new by 2016, regardless of its core merits. (Obligatory: I'm biased: I think there is a niche for PC's and a separate niche for iPads. I see no Post-PC world, only an admission that Dell's profit margins will never return to 1990's levels.)
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  I see no Post-PC world, only an admission that Dell's profit margins will never return to 1990's levels.) The "Post PC" world doesn't remotely mean PCs will disappear. We've been in the "Post Mainframe" world for 30+ years, yet Big Blue still makes a lot of money on super computers. When people talk about "Post PC", they are referring to where the majority of dollars will be spent and how the average person will interact with computers. We are still learning how to make that interaction really effective for producing content, so we haven't completely left the PC world, but within a couple years, we will be there. One other thing that will be a hallmark of this transition will be ubiquity of computing. In the PC world, there were one or two general-purpose computers in a home. In the Post PC, there will be dozens. And even more special-purpose devices. Up to today, Post PC products have been mostly used for consumption. This is a side effect of two things: most computers are used for consumption and, as I mentioned earlier, the interactions for creation are still a work in progress. But progress is happening. I've used my iPad to author business presentations from scratch, to do mockups for my web product and to author blog posts. There are a lot of advantage to having a device that works more naturally with my creative energies. If I'm relaxing on the couch, I can continue to do so. The laptop forces me into a different mindset. But, yes, PCs will certainly continue to be around and useful for a good number of people.
sixothree 15y ago
Hidden gestures everywhere seems to be the biggest problem I have with Windows 8.
- kiloaper 15y ago
  People have been putting together 'cheat sheets' like this one to overcome that problem: http://docs.com/IOLP http://docs.com/IOLP [.docx] Having some optional hint or tip mechanism built in for new users would be nice. Maybe not in the style of Clippy from Office but something that would point out all the nice little shortcuts.
  - smacktoward 15y ago
    If your interface needs a cheat sheet or tip mechanism or animated assistant to explain to the user how it works, it is a failure.
    - tlianza 15y ago
      I think this is where Microsoft isn't getting a fair shake. Half of the iPhone features require a gesture. If it wasn't for talking to people and 'cheat sheets' no one would know how to search, kill apps, set the orientation, move apps, uninstall apps, etc. Clearly Apple traded off a lot of learnability for aesthetics and a pleasant experience after you learn. I see this as very similar.
      - matsim 15y ago
        I agree that Microsoft isn't receiving entirely fair treatment here. As noted in the comments on the link's page, I'm sure a simple tutorial at install will do just fine for many, many typical users. However, with regard to my personal experience, I picked up the iPhone 4S as my first smart phone. I've never seen an iPhone or iPod touch in action before and this was my first experience with an iOS device. It took me very little time to figure out how to navigate it, close and uninstall apps, etc. I never googled how to do something, and even had fun trying out my new toy. I think comparing something like the simple iOS and the should-be simple Windows 8 is a very complicated act. The basic nature of a single Home Button and a touch screen simplified my learning of the iPhone. I imagine, without an introductory tutorial, Windows 8, with such complications as an external mouse and full keyboard and no touch-screen monitor, may be a very hectic experience (as seen in the video).
tylermenezes 15y ago
To be fair, several of your complaints are really polish. This isn't the RTM by any stretch, and from what I understand, the reason for even having the consumer preview is to get feedback like that. Saying it's doomed because of some of these things isn't really fair. I'm not sure about the mouse-tablet thing, in general, sure. But the specific way you use the lock screen, for example, is likely to get fixed before they release. (I've been using the Consumer Preview for about a week on my primary machine and I'm pretty happy with it.)
- ugh 15y ago
  I don’t want to say it’s doomed. Most of the people at Microsoft who decided to go that way are likely cleverer than me. I can only say that I don’t see their plan and I’m not sure whether they can be successful. (And also that I personally don’t like Windows 8 all that much, but that doesn’t say much.)
- quanticle 15y ago
  The problem isn't any specific thing. Rather it's the fact that Microsoft is (once again) trying to make a single UI fit both the desktop and tablet use cases. It makes no sense. It's like trying to fit the same set of controls onto a car and a motorcycle. All of these specific UI issues result from this impedance mismatch between tablet and desktop UIs. So yes, Microsoft may iron out the specific bugs we bring up. It won't matter, though, because UI issues of this nature will crop up at every seam between the desktop and tablet interfaces. What will happen is that Microsoft will patch these piecemeal and we'll end up with layers and layers of band-aids trying to compensate for a fundamentally broken design.
georgieporgie 15y ago
Tablet paradigms leak into mouse and keyboard interfaces For what it's worth, Kinect for Windows was released on, I think, February 1st. There's some talk that we may see Kinect technology and gesture recognition coming to all laptops within a year or two. Personally, I've been waiting for the RSI-inducing mouse and keyboard interface to die (or at least be demoted) for a long time now.
joe_the_user 15y ago
Swimming against the trends and making something that's the best version of your own vision would qualify for a positive adjective like "brave". Junking your existing stuff and making your users into involuntary recruits in your drive to hijack what the pundits say is the latest and great thing merits adjectives like "arrogant", "overweening" and "full of hubris".
- Lewisham 15y ago
  Apparently you are under the opinion that Microsoft is deleting Windows 7 from everyone's current PCs. No-one is being forced to upgrade, and security patches for 7 will be coming out for a while yet. I think the users that don't want Windows 8 will live.

by ugh 15y ago

_mayo 15y ago

On the lock screen you can hit any key and the image will slide up and reveal the log in dialog. I do agree though, the issue that Windows 8 seems to suffer from is it's not that intuitive on a desktop. My biggest issue is there seems to be no indication of the hot corners when you first begin to use it, and even when they are activated, they feel finicky (especially the 'recent apps' pane on the left).

ugh 15y ago
Any key on the keyboard but you have to slide up (swipe, basically) with a mouse instead of just clicking? I get it that it makes sense on tablets as a lock screen, but on desktops? Ok, I’m going to call that a bug and ignore it. It’s easy to fix and no big deal in the grand scheme of things. Even with that changed and the hotcorners indicated, the hodgepodge stays, though. The hotcorners are only the tip of the iceberg, what you notice immediately. (Or, rather, not at all, like me, who figured out to use the Windows key pretty quickly – but still after some confusion – but didn’t find the hotcorners for a long time after that. I can totally identify with the guy in the video. I wasn’t quite as helpless, but close and I’m young and grew up with that stuff.)
- dpark 15y ago
  > Any key on the keyboard but you have to slide up (swipe, basically) with a mouse instead of just clicking? You can also scroll the mousewheel.
TeMPOraL 15y ago
When testing with a friend, we had to Google up a video after spending like half an hour trying to find a way to shut down the system. Looks nice, but definitely not intuitive on desktop :(.
- gbrhaz 15y ago
  I agree - shutting down and quitting a Metro app were the first two things that annoyed me. I shouldn't have to go through 5-6 clicks just to shut down the computer. I thought we had that issue already with Vista, where the default "shut down" option was set to Sleep or something, rather than Shut Down? Microsoft should learn from their mistakes.
  - marshray 15y ago
    Ever hear the "stateful UI is bad; on/off is a state" UI design principle? My Macbook-using friends tell me there's no way to close the lid without suspending it. There was an influential blog post years ago documenting the 11 or so ways to shutdown Vista. More than likely someone is reciting the "multiple ways bad" mantra. I'm surprised UI designers let us shut down our computers at all.

sounds 15y ago

Serious question: if Microsoft is convinced of the "Post-PC" meme, so Metro is the future — and the Start Menu is in the trash — then office work should be done on an iPad. So what's the disconnect? I'll give my opinion at the bottom. You've pointed at the leaky tablet paradigm, but let's just assume Office takes a year to catch up to Windows. That's historically been the case. "Normal" windows apps should be phased out rapidly and Metro everywhere should become the new Windows UI. Since when has real office productivity needed a Tablet UI? It seems obvious to me that the iPad (and iPhone) are for casual use or travel. It may be productive to review sales figures, or tweak the wording in the presentation, while on the plane. Anything more requires a keyboard in my opinion. The physical difference between the iPad and a keyboard is the primary reason I think office workers will hate Metro. Second to that I see them hating Metro because they just want to "get stuff done." Metro lacks the streamlining that the old apps have taken years to achieve. Instead of being able to add a formula with one click, you have to learn a whole new set of interface tricks. Microsoft wants a quick success. So Metro will probably get ditched for something new by 2016, regardless of its core merits. (Obligatory: I'm biased: I think there is a niche for PC's and a separate niche for iPads. I see no Post-PC world, only an admission that Dell's profit margins will never return to 1990's levels.)

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
I see no Post-PC world, only an admission that Dell's profit margins will never return to 1990's levels.) The "Post PC" world doesn't remotely mean PCs will disappear. We've been in the "Post Mainframe" world for 30+ years, yet Big Blue still makes a lot of money on super computers. When people talk about "Post PC", they are referring to where the majority of dollars will be spent and how the average person will interact with computers. We are still learning how to make that interaction really effective for producing content, so we haven't completely left the PC world, but within a couple years, we will be there. One other thing that will be a hallmark of this transition will be ubiquity of computing. In the PC world, there were one or two general-purpose computers in a home. In the Post PC, there will be dozens. And even more special-purpose devices. Up to today, Post PC products have been mostly used for consumption. This is a side effect of two things: most computers are used for consumption and, as I mentioned earlier, the interactions for creation are still a work in progress. But progress is happening. I've used my iPad to author business presentations from scratch, to do mockups for my web product and to author blog posts. There are a lot of advantage to having a device that works more naturally with my creative energies. If I'm relaxing on the couch, I can continue to do so. The laptop forces me into a different mindset. But, yes, PCs will certainly continue to be around and useful for a good number of people.

sixothree 15y ago

Hidden gestures everywhere seems to be the biggest problem I have with Windows 8.

kiloaper 15y ago
People have been putting together 'cheat sheets' like this one to overcome that problem: http://docs.com/IOLP http://docs.com/IOLP [.docx] Having some optional hint or tip mechanism built in for new users would be nice. Maybe not in the style of Clippy from Office but something that would point out all the nice little shortcuts.
- smacktoward 15y ago
  If your interface needs a cheat sheet or tip mechanism or animated assistant to explain to the user how it works, it is a failure.
  - tlianza 15y ago
    I think this is where Microsoft isn't getting a fair shake. Half of the iPhone features require a gesture. If it wasn't for talking to people and 'cheat sheets' no one would know how to search, kill apps, set the orientation, move apps, uninstall apps, etc. Clearly Apple traded off a lot of learnability for aesthetics and a pleasant experience after you learn. I see this as very similar.
    - matsim 15y ago
      I agree that Microsoft isn't receiving entirely fair treatment here. As noted in the comments on the link's page, I'm sure a simple tutorial at install will do just fine for many, many typical users. However, with regard to my personal experience, I picked up the iPhone 4S as my first smart phone. I've never seen an iPhone or iPod touch in action before and this was my first experience with an iOS device. It took me very little time to figure out how to navigate it, close and uninstall apps, etc. I never googled how to do something, and even had fun trying out my new toy. I think comparing something like the simple iOS and the should-be simple Windows 8 is a very complicated act. The basic nature of a single Home Button and a touch screen simplified my learning of the iPhone. I imagine, without an introductory tutorial, Windows 8, with such complications as an external mouse and full keyboard and no touch-screen monitor, may be a very hectic experience (as seen in the video).

tylermenezes 15y ago

To be fair, several of your complaints are really polish. This isn't the RTM by any stretch, and from what I understand, the reason for even having the consumer preview is to get feedback like that. Saying it's doomed because of some of these things isn't really fair. I'm not sure about the mouse-tablet thing, in general, sure. But the specific way you use the lock screen, for example, is likely to get fixed before they release. (I've been using the Consumer Preview for about a week on my primary machine and I'm pretty happy with it.)

ugh 15y ago
I don’t want to say it’s doomed. Most of the people at Microsoft who decided to go that way are likely cleverer than me. I can only say that I don’t see their plan and I’m not sure whether they can be successful. (And also that I personally don’t like Windows 8 all that much, but that doesn’t say much.)
quanticle 15y ago
The problem isn't any specific thing. Rather it's the fact that Microsoft is (once again) trying to make a single UI fit both the desktop and tablet use cases. It makes no sense. It's like trying to fit the same set of controls onto a car and a motorcycle. All of these specific UI issues result from this impedance mismatch between tablet and desktop UIs. So yes, Microsoft may iron out the specific bugs we bring up. It won't matter, though, because UI issues of this nature will crop up at every seam between the desktop and tablet interfaces. What will happen is that Microsoft will patch these piecemeal and we'll end up with layers and layers of band-aids trying to compensate for a fundamentally broken design.

georgieporgie 15y ago

Tablet paradigms leak into mouse and keyboard interfaces For what it's worth, Kinect for Windows was released on, I think, February 1st. There's some talk that we may see Kinect technology and gesture recognition coming to all laptops within a year or two. Personally, I've been waiting for the RSI-inducing mouse and keyboard interface to die (or at least be demoted) for a long time now.

joe_the_user 15y ago

Swimming against the trends and making something that's the best version of your own vision would qualify for a positive adjective like "brave". Junking your existing stuff and making your users into involuntary recruits in your drive to hijack what the pundits say is the latest and great thing merits adjectives like "arrogant", "overweening" and "full of hubris".

Lewisham 15y ago
Apparently you are under the opinion that Microsoft is deleting Windows 7 from everyone's current PCs. No-one is being forced to upgrade, and security patches for 7 will be coming out for a while yet. I think the users that don't want Windows 8 will live.