6 ms·

I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself) Moreover, what's most

by tern 3y ago

I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself) Moreover, what's most onerous, if anything, about the psychotherapeutic mindset is the implicit "broken / fixed" distinction (usually framed as something like "health" or "well-adjustedness") Another framing with regard to experience would look at "development," "growth," "abundance," "depth," "truth" There is much to unfold and discover in this life, and psychotherapy is a sliver of a broader set of practices—which have been with humanity for the entirety of recorded history—for doing so deliberately What's most interesting about this article is the demonstration of a high form of a certain current in conservative culture: intolerance for (read: anger and fear at) the "sensitivity" of others. The internal script is something like "I can't handle that other people are sensitive and lash out at me for how I am." The projection is self-evident.

vmladenov 3y ago
> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to We certainly wouldn’t want data to get in the way of our confirmation bias.
nradov 3y ago
A more accurate representation of the conservative position is that they just don't want to be forced to pay for psychotherapy for others, especially since there is very limited evidence that it actually works better than other treatments for certain conditions. I haven't seen any principled conservatives object to other people paying out of pocket for their own psychotherapy, even if they consider it ineffective.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  I can conceive of a whole gamut of therapies which I'd rather not be funding with my tax dollars or insurance premiums, but my list is distinct from yours, and it would seem fairly individualized. So it seems like the best solution is emerging: there are Christian Health Sharing ministries which impose requirements on the morals and faith practices of their members, and they also disallow sharing of costs for treatments which contradict or deny Christian doctrine, as delineated by the ministry's guidelines. So, people are free to associate with a health sharing plan that is not insurance, and promises to observe the tenets of shared beliefs (Christian or not). It works more like a mutual benefit society. In fact, there are a significant number of psychotherapists and other practitioners (natural medicine too) who do not accept any form of insurance. The health sharing ministries work with their patients to pay the bills.
- callalex 3y ago
  Who are you addressing here? It certainly isn’t the comment you replied to.
3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
However you'd find also thousands, millions in fact, of happy people who used the services of psychics, mediums, astrologers, crystal healers, taro readers, shamans, reiki practitioners, remote viewers. You'd also find millions who got cured with sugar placebo pills. Which is not to say psychotherapists don't do anything right. Maybe they do something right. But it may be almost by accident, or maybe much is not needed for you to feel someone's got your back. These trends, of solving a given problem a given way, are largely cultural. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we see present day psychotherapy as flawed as we see alchemy today.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I do not believe it is the case that you could find thousands, let alone millions, of people who have been cured of acute mental health ailments by means of astrology, crystal healing, or remote viewing. Further: your argument boils down to "there are sham cures, therefore all interventions are apt to be sham cures".
  - unmole 3y ago
    > Further: your argument boils down to "there are sham cures, therefore all interventions are apt to be sham cures". It absolutely does not. The GP dismissed the usefulness of studies and posited that personal anecdotes were sufficient.
  - appplication 3y ago
    If you think people haven’t or can’t be cured by astrology, psychics, shamanism, etc, I think you fundamentally misunderstand psychotherapy. The modern, clinical practice is just a controlled refinement of a process that has worked for thousands of years in thousands of ways. At an abstract level, it doesn’t matter what the method is, be it psychotherapy, astrology, psilocybin, etc. The benefit is in processing your thoughts to make sense of, and peace with, the world and the traumas it has inflicted on you.
  - michaelcampbell 3y ago
    His argument sounds more to me like, "There are sham cures that have worked. Therefore this other thing that might work isn't conclusively not a sham."
michaelcampbell 3y ago
> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen <sigh>
virtualritz 3y ago
> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself) One would hope that most HN crowd would hopefully stop reading after this sentence. Where to even start?
- overnight5349 3y ago
  > Where to even start? Maybe reading the rest of the comment is a good start
  - smohare 3y ago
    [dead]
  - virtualritz 3y ago
    > Maybe reading the rest of the comment is a good start The rest of it the comment is discredited by the line I quoted. It already contains two biases verbatim. So that without even considering those that can be deduced/assumed further it can't be taken seriously. Replace 'psychotherapy' with 'astrology' and reconsider OP's sentence: "I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself)" Mind you, I am talking about the comment here. My opinion about the article the discussion is about is a tad more nuanced but that is beside the point of my reply.
smohare 3y ago
[dead]

by tern 3y ago

vmladenov 3y ago

> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to We certainly wouldn’t want data to get in the way of our confirmation bias.

nradov 3y ago

A more accurate representation of the conservative position is that they just don't want to be forced to pay for psychotherapy for others, especially since there is very limited evidence that it actually works better than other treatments for certain conditions. I haven't seen any principled conservatives object to other people paying out of pocket for their own psychotherapy, even if they consider it ineffective.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
I can conceive of a whole gamut of therapies which I'd rather not be funding with my tax dollars or insurance premiums, but my list is distinct from yours, and it would seem fairly individualized. So it seems like the best solution is emerging: there are Christian Health Sharing ministries which impose requirements on the morals and faith practices of their members, and they also disallow sharing of costs for treatments which contradict or deny Christian doctrine, as delineated by the ministry's guidelines. So, people are free to associate with a health sharing plan that is not insurance, and promises to observe the tenets of shared beliefs (Christian or not). It works more like a mutual benefit society. In fact, there are a significant number of psychotherapists and other practitioners (natural medicine too) who do not accept any form of insurance. The health sharing ministries work with their patients to pay the bills.
callalex 3y ago
Who are you addressing here? It certainly isn’t the comment you replied to.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago

However you'd find also thousands, millions in fact, of happy people who used the services of psychics, mediums, astrologers, crystal healers, taro readers, shamans, reiki practitioners, remote viewers. You'd also find millions who got cured with sugar placebo pills. Which is not to say psychotherapists don't do anything right. Maybe they do something right. But it may be almost by accident, or maybe much is not needed for you to feel someone's got your back. These trends, of solving a given problem a given way, are largely cultural. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we see present day psychotherapy as flawed as we see alchemy today.

tptacek 3y ago
I do not believe it is the case that you could find thousands, let alone millions, of people who have been cured of acute mental health ailments by means of astrology, crystal healing, or remote viewing. Further: your argument boils down to "there are sham cures, therefore all interventions are apt to be sham cures".
- unmole 3y ago
  > Further: your argument boils down to "there are sham cures, therefore all interventions are apt to be sham cures". It absolutely does not. The GP dismissed the usefulness of studies and posited that personal anecdotes were sufficient.
- appplication 3y ago
  If you think people haven’t or can’t be cured by astrology, psychics, shamanism, etc, I think you fundamentally misunderstand psychotherapy. The modern, clinical practice is just a controlled refinement of a process that has worked for thousands of years in thousands of ways. At an abstract level, it doesn’t matter what the method is, be it psychotherapy, astrology, psilocybin, etc. The benefit is in processing your thoughts to make sense of, and peace with, the world and the traumas it has inflicted on you.
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  His argument sounds more to me like, "There are sham cures that have worked. Therefore this other thing that might work isn't conclusively not a sham."

michaelcampbell 3y ago

> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen <sigh>

virtualritz 3y ago

> I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself) One would hope that most HN crowd would hopefully stop reading after this sentence. Where to even start?

overnight5349 3y ago
> Where to even start? Maybe reading the rest of the comment is a good start
- smohare 3y ago
  [dead]
- virtualritz 3y ago
  > Maybe reading the rest of the comment is a good start The rest of it the comment is discredited by the line I quoted. It already contains two biases verbatim. So that without even considering those that can be deduced/assumed further it can't be taken seriously. Replace 'psychotherapy' with 'astrology' and reconsider OP's sentence: "I don't need studies to validate the hundreds of incredible results I've seen within the population I have direct access to (and myself)" Mind you, I am talking about the comment here. My opinion about the article the discussion is about is a tad more nuanced but that is beside the point of my reply.

smohare 3y ago

[dead]