6 ms·

My brother is law is a British police officer. He laughs at how much effort we spend in the US and Canada policing traffic. "We just have cameras. They do the s

by mabbo 3y ago

My brother is law is a British police officer. He laughs at how much effort we spend in the US and Canada policing traffic. "We just have cameras. They do the same work for free." His job is to investigate violent and serious crimes, rather than to bother motorists.

fsckboy 3y ago
does he suggest that if we put police cameras in people's homes that would eliminate a lot of domestic incidents? The issue is a bit more nuanced than he's making out.
- edu 3y ago
  The difference between public and private space is pretty clear.
  - 8organicbits 3y ago
    There's also pretty clear ways to protect privacy in public. Cameras should only collect photos when they detect a violation.
    - edu 3y ago
      Yes, totally agree on that.
mjevans 3y ago
Traffic cameras are not a safety encouragement device. I'd classify them as a 'revenue generating device' or a regressive tax. I would feel much safer if the majority of police resources were allocated to the 'worst' violations of the laws (hardest crimes) first.
- 8organicbits 3y ago
  Why do you believe they don't provide safety? Some countries apply fines proportional to income, so there's no inherent need for them to be regressive. Having driven in places where some roads are dotted with cameras and others are bare, the driving behavior is clearly altered. With cameras present, most drivers don't speed. Others speed just below the ticket threshold (+5mph?), or speed only between the cameras. On the roads without cameras drivers are often 10-15mph over the limit with some even faster.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    I don't have a citation handy, but I've seen studies showing that red light cameras increase accidents. People slam the brakes because they don't want to get their picture taken and get rear ended I'm also not crazy about it from a privacy perspective.
    - abenga 3y ago
      You wouldn't need to slam on your brakes if you are not speeding in the first place, right? Privacy seems a valid argument to me though.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  At least in many euro countries, a camera ticket will still go against the driver and their license. In North America we’ve given up on this safety aspect and just ticket the vehicle owner with no ability to assign liability (or points) to the actually guilty driver.
- gruez 3y ago
  >I would feel much safer if the majority of police resources were allocated to the 'worst' violations of the laws (hardest crimes) first. Like motor vehicle deaths? In 2022 there were 42,795 such deaths in the US. Meanwhile there were only 22,941 murders in 2021.
  - mjevans 3y ago
    It would be more realistic to compare pre-pandemic numbers since behavior was so wildly divergent from normal during the lockdowns. However I'd rather the full cause of those deaths were broken down. How many were _just_ someone driving fast? Many drivers do go faster than the recommended / suggested speed, without incident, every day in many places. Surely most of those instances involve some other factor. Maybe it's drugs or alcohol, maybe it's mechanical failure or a medical condition, maybe it's criminal intent to harm. They are rare but I can think of two or three somewhat recent national news stories that involve someone crazy using their vehicle as a weapon on sidewalks or against crowds.
- ldoughty 3y ago
  Traffic cameras as they are now are probably not the best safety encouragement device. I don't understand why states or localities have not run cameras along major routes and looked for speeding over a longer period of time, as opposed to speeding at a specific point. It certainly would be a safety device if you were seen traveling effectively +20 mph over 15/20/30 minutes along a highway.. proves a willful negligence to traffic laws while leaving unharmed those that go 15 over to skirt by an 18 wheeler that is fish-tailing.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    > I don't understand why states or localities have not run cameras along major routes and looked for speeding over a longer period of time, as opposed to speeding at a specific point. They do in the UK.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  On the one hand I totally agree and I've been arguing locally against proposals to put in traffic cameras on the basis of them being regressive taxes--and that we should be putting in place more traffic calming devices and road diets to stop speeding. But OTOH I'd like to get the cops entirely out of the business of enforcing traffic laws and doing stops entirely. Make all traffic enforcement automated and legalize all drugs. Make the cops go find something else to do with their time.
  - sitkack 3y ago
    You have my vote Mayor!
- concordDance 3y ago
  > Traffic cameras are not a safety encouragement device. I'd classify them as a 'revenue generating device' or a regressive tax. Here in the UK they are clearly signposted so you can slow down before you get to it. If you don't slow down because you're going too fast or aren't paying attention then you're behaving dangerously and need discouraging. They genuinely improve safety imo.
8organicbits 3y ago
This was shocking to me when I traveled. Worse, traffic stops are a major cause of deaths for officers and drivers. What's the urgency to chase down and ticket traffic infractions when cameras seem extremely effective elsewhere? [1] https://abc17news.com/news/crime/2022/01/28/numbers-rising-for-police-officers-shot-during-traffic-stops/ https://abc17news.com/news/crime/2022/01/28/numbers-rising-f... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-killings-record-number-2022 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-ki... Edit: I've often wondered why someone didn't put a license plate reader at every on/off ramp. You can compute speed from the elapsed time and there's no way to game/avoid/learn the positions of the cameras. Purge readings that don't generate tickets, for privacy. Wouldn't take many cameras.
- adammarples 3y ago
  This is called an average speed check in the UK and I hate them, you literally can't speed at all
  - gruez 3y ago
    >I hate them, you literally can't speed at all What do you think speed limits are for then?
    - adammarples 3y ago
      Speed limits in the UK are a little weird, for example on the North Circular, you can be limited to 40 mph for many miles, on a 4 line wide highway with concrete walls on each side and no pedestrians possible, everyone crawls along. Also on the Westway, my pet peeve, a completely enclosed, raised and straight highway with nothing to hit, you can be stuck at 30 mph. Having spent an hour and a half getting out of London, you immediately hit tiny twisting country roads barely one lane wind, full of blind spots, and they're 70 mph limit. This is why its my pet peeve.
    - robben1234 3y ago
      >What do you think speed limits are for then? In the presence of vulnerable bystanders or users of the road (e.g cyclists on city streets), limit serves as protection against fatal outcomes in case of an error. That's the only case where no one could argue against limit. Does UK track average speeds in cities? I'm not familiar with their system. But aware that Dutch use it on highways to make everyone miserable. While their east neighbor doesn't have a default limit on highways at all while still having one of the best in the world highway safety record.
Scoundreller 3y ago
I feel like Canadian cops have generally given up on traffic violations. The mis-step we have in some areas is that we still have some police forces that are effectively just a highway patrol, at least in Southern Ontario. We do have a regulatory problem: most accidents require a police report. And a response problem where police would be first to a scene of a blocked lane on a major highway. Meanwhile in France, they have a “safety” crew that first-responds to mechanical issues. After a collision, there’s just a form that both parties fill out and send off to their insurance company. No police involvement unless it was serious.
- mabbo 3y ago
  > effectively just a highway patrol, at least in Southern Ontario There's that one pair of overpasses on the 401 that the Woodstock police setup as a giant speed trap machine like every other weekend in the summer. Part of me is impressed by the efficiency of the whole thing.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Woodstock (municipal) Police or Ontario Provincial Police?

by mabbo 3y ago

fsckboy 3y ago

does he suggest that if we put police cameras in people's homes that would eliminate a lot of domestic incidents? The issue is a bit more nuanced than he's making out.

edu 3y ago
The difference between public and private space is pretty clear.
- 8organicbits 3y ago
  There's also pretty clear ways to protect privacy in public. Cameras should only collect photos when they detect a violation.
  - edu 3y ago
    Yes, totally agree on that.

mjevans 3y ago

Traffic cameras are not a safety encouragement device. I'd classify them as a 'revenue generating device' or a regressive tax. I would feel much safer if the majority of police resources were allocated to the 'worst' violations of the laws (hardest crimes) first.

8organicbits 3y ago
Why do you believe they don't provide safety? Some countries apply fines proportional to income, so there's no inherent need for them to be regressive. Having driven in places where some roads are dotted with cameras and others are bare, the driving behavior is clearly altered. With cameras present, most drivers don't speed. Others speed just below the ticket threshold (+5mph?), or speed only between the cameras. On the roads without cameras drivers are often 10-15mph over the limit with some even faster.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  I don't have a citation handy, but I've seen studies showing that red light cameras increase accidents. People slam the brakes because they don't want to get their picture taken and get rear ended I'm also not crazy about it from a privacy perspective.
  - abenga 3y ago
    You wouldn't need to slam on your brakes if you are not speeding in the first place, right? Privacy seems a valid argument to me though.
Scoundreller 3y ago
At least in many euro countries, a camera ticket will still go against the driver and their license. In North America we’ve given up on this safety aspect and just ticket the vehicle owner with no ability to assign liability (or points) to the actually guilty driver.
gruez 3y ago
>I would feel much safer if the majority of police resources were allocated to the 'worst' violations of the laws (hardest crimes) first. Like motor vehicle deaths? In 2022 there were 42,795 such deaths in the US. Meanwhile there were only 22,941 murders in 2021.
- mjevans 3y ago
  It would be more realistic to compare pre-pandemic numbers since behavior was so wildly divergent from normal during the lockdowns. However I'd rather the full cause of those deaths were broken down. How many were _just_ someone driving fast? Many drivers do go faster than the recommended / suggested speed, without incident, every day in many places. Surely most of those instances involve some other factor. Maybe it's drugs or alcohol, maybe it's mechanical failure or a medical condition, maybe it's criminal intent to harm. They are rare but I can think of two or three somewhat recent national news stories that involve someone crazy using their vehicle as a weapon on sidewalks or against crowds.
ldoughty 3y ago
Traffic cameras as they are now are probably not the best safety encouragement device. I don't understand why states or localities have not run cameras along major routes and looked for speeding over a longer period of time, as opposed to speeding at a specific point. It certainly would be a safety device if you were seen traveling effectively +20 mph over 15/20/30 minutes along a highway.. proves a willful negligence to traffic laws while leaving unharmed those that go 15 over to skirt by an 18 wheeler that is fish-tailing.
- concordDance 3y ago
  > I don't understand why states or localities have not run cameras along major routes and looked for speeding over a longer period of time, as opposed to speeding at a specific point. They do in the UK.
lamontcg 3y ago
On the one hand I totally agree and I've been arguing locally against proposals to put in traffic cameras on the basis of them being regressive taxes--and that we should be putting in place more traffic calming devices and road diets to stop speeding. But OTOH I'd like to get the cops entirely out of the business of enforcing traffic laws and doing stops entirely. Make all traffic enforcement automated and legalize all drugs. Make the cops go find something else to do with their time.
- sitkack 3y ago
  You have my vote Mayor!
concordDance 3y ago
> Traffic cameras are not a safety encouragement device. I'd classify them as a 'revenue generating device' or a regressive tax. Here in the UK they are clearly signposted so you can slow down before you get to it. If you don't slow down because you're going too fast or aren't paying attention then you're behaving dangerously and need discouraging. They genuinely improve safety imo.

8organicbits 3y ago

This was shocking to me when I traveled. Worse, traffic stops are a major cause of deaths for officers and drivers. What's the urgency to chase down and ticket traffic infractions when cameras seem extremely effective elsewhere? [1] https://abc17news.com/news/crime/2022/01/28/numbers-rising-for-police-officers-shot-during-traffic-stops/ https://abc17news.com/news/crime/2022/01/28/numbers-rising-f... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-killings-record-number-2022 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-ki... Edit: I've often wondered why someone didn't put a license plate reader at every on/off ramp. You can compute speed from the elapsed time and there's no way to game/avoid/learn the positions of the cameras. Purge readings that don't generate tickets, for privacy. Wouldn't take many cameras.

adammarples 3y ago
This is called an average speed check in the UK and I hate them, you literally can't speed at all
- gruez 3y ago
  >I hate them, you literally can't speed at all What do you think speed limits are for then?
  - adammarples 3y ago
    Speed limits in the UK are a little weird, for example on the North Circular, you can be limited to 40 mph for many miles, on a 4 line wide highway with concrete walls on each side and no pedestrians possible, everyone crawls along. Also on the Westway, my pet peeve, a completely enclosed, raised and straight highway with nothing to hit, you can be stuck at 30 mph. Having spent an hour and a half getting out of London, you immediately hit tiny twisting country roads barely one lane wind, full of blind spots, and they're 70 mph limit. This is why its my pet peeve.
  - robben1234 3y ago
    >What do you think speed limits are for then? In the presence of vulnerable bystanders or users of the road (e.g cyclists on city streets), limit serves as protection against fatal outcomes in case of an error. That's the only case where no one could argue against limit. Does UK track average speeds in cities? I'm not familiar with their system. But aware that Dutch use it on highways to make everyone miserable. While their east neighbor doesn't have a default limit on highways at all while still having one of the best in the world highway safety record.

Scoundreller 3y ago

I feel like Canadian cops have generally given up on traffic violations. The mis-step we have in some areas is that we still have some police forces that are effectively just a highway patrol, at least in Southern Ontario. We do have a regulatory problem: most accidents require a police report. And a response problem where police would be first to a scene of a blocked lane on a major highway. Meanwhile in France, they have a “safety” crew that first-responds to mechanical issues. After a collision, there’s just a form that both parties fill out and send off to their insurance company. No police involvement unless it was serious.

mabbo 3y ago
> effectively just a highway patrol, at least in Southern Ontario There's that one pair of overpasses on the 401 that the Woodstock police setup as a giant speed trap machine like every other weekend in the summer. Part of me is impressed by the efficiency of the whole thing.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  Woodstock (municipal) Police or Ontario Provincial Police?