6 ms·

Brazil's Embraer plans to build electric flying taxi factory near Sao Paulo

65 points by joak 3y ago

epups 3y ago
Embraer makes some very interesting mid-sized commercial planes. This piece is light on details and the price range seems crazy optimistic - can you believe you would only pay 2x or 3x what an Uber charges to fly over a city? Nevertheless, seems like a promising concept.
- joak 3y ago
  Sao Paulo is the city with the highest number of helicopters. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil They probably know where the costs are. Maintenance and fuel I guess... And electric VTOLs are far cheaper on these two.
  - nradov 3y ago
    That remains to be proven. In theory, maintenance might eventually be cheaper. But there are still a lot of mechanical parts which will require periodic manual inspection every certain number of cycles or operating hours. Electric motors are simpler than combustion engines but eVTOL designs tend to have a lot of them for control and reliability. Crew expenses will be similar (autonomous operation with passengers is still many years away). Electricity may be cheaper than fuel, but recharging times will be critical for profitable operation.
    - smugma 3y ago
      Battery swap probably makes more sense here.
- pedrolins 3y ago
  I was at a talk given by the president of Embraer-X (that's an Embraer subsidiary that looks into these riskier ventures), and he got into the details of how they validated their business plan of using these vehicles for urban transportation. They offered helicopter rides to one of Rio's major airports and charged R$100 per passenger (according to him, that's an accurate estimate of future prices once they make their eVTOL) at a loss just to see if there was demand. They got booked the entire year in advance.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    That is mostly because Brazilian traffic and public transport is atrocious given the city size. Rio de Janiero is a bit larger than Moscow, Paris and Guangzhou yet each have at least 5x the metro infrastructure.
- kikokikokiko 3y ago
  Brazilian guy here: Embraer is in deep trouble ever since before the pandemic, when their merge deal with Boeing went south after the Max debacle. I would really like to believe otherwise, but I can only see this as vaporware intended to pump the stock price of Embraer. Flying taxi drones as an economic viable alternative, on a 3rd world country nonetheless, is a hard nut to crack. If even their helicopter taxi venture proof of concept was not being profitable, using a proven technology. How in hell will they make this drone experiment be profitable then?
  - epups 3y ago
    As far as I can tell, they experienced a dip during the COVID period but they have a healthy financial outlook right now: https://airinsight.com/embraer-improves-operating-profit-after-strong-q4/ https://airinsight.com/embraer-improves-operating-profit-aft...
- xfalcox 3y ago
  São Paulo traffic is so bad that even Uber had an Helicopter option here for a brief period. https://flyflapper.com/stories/uber-air/ https://flyflapper.com/stories/uber-air/
fwungy 3y ago
"Plan" is a weak verb. E.g. - I _plan_ to marry Ariane Grande.
- itsyaboi 3y ago
  Embraer is a big name in aviation. This is more like "Tom Cruise plans to marry Ariana Grande".
  - kikokikokiko 3y ago
    Your analogy is better than it should ever be really. If Embraer really do launch this drone taxi service someday, it will be only to boost it's image as an aviation/inovation company, not because it would be profitable (it probably wouldn't, and it will not happen in the end). If Tom Cruise really do get engaged to Ariana someday, it will be to boost his image as a man's man, an action star that get all the ladies (he probably never enjoyed the fruit very much, and it will never happen in the end).
huqedato 3y ago
Wishful thinking, the electric flying taxi is always 10 years away in the future. Same story as the fusion power.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  It's a difference if it's some random startup looking to part incompetent investors from their funds (there have been way too many of these), legit startups, or a classic aviation player. In any case, when talking about startups, both Lilium Aviation (Munich) and Volocopter (Bruchsal) got actually flying prototypes into the air [1], and they're led by actually competent former Airbus people. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/projekte/artikel/wirtschaft/flugtaxi-lilium-volocopter-e674545/ https://www.sueddeutsche.de/projekte/artikel/wirtschaft/flug...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
diego_moita 3y ago
I'll believe when/if I see it. As they say in there, "Brazil is the country of the future and it will always be, never the country of the present". This taxi looks like a Brazilian future: always coming, never present. Embraer is skilled, but the manufacturing industry in Brazil is in decline. Besides, most of the money in the country is flowing into smaller towns in the countryside, following agricultural boom. Not too much need for helicopter taxis in there. Disclaimer: I am a "viralata", a Brazilian that ran away from the country.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > Embraer is skilled That's an understatement, they're a top 3 if not even top 2 aircraft manufacturer in the world. I'm not entirely convinced in the electric taxi model's financial viability, but Embraer are certainly capable of manufacturing them.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    That being said, Embraer almost threw in the towel and merged with Boeing had it not been for regulators blocking it.
    - myth2018 3y ago
      Wrong. The deal was abandoned by Boeing, as an unfolding of the 737-MAX major fiasco. And that merge wasn't Embraer "throwing the towel": Bombardier, Embraer's direct competitor, partnered up with Airbus, getting a critical competitive advantage. It was only natural for Embraer too seek a similar partnership.
      - sofixa 3y ago
        > Bombardier, Embraer's direct competitor, partnered up with Airbus, getting a critical competitive advantage They didn't "partner up". They gave up their modern design (C-Series) to Airbus, then had a fire sale of the remaining assets like the CRJ series, all due to Boeing sabotage. Apart from Bombardier, Boeing are the other big losers from the whole debacle, because Airbus got a very good and modern design for "free" (assumes liabilities).
oniony 3y ago
Great, now I'll have to put up with factories flying around everywhere, littering the sky.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  Factory pattern considered harmful.
- dghughes 3y ago
  Amazon wanted to have dirigible factories hovering over cities and drones would fly out with orders. edit: warehouse not factory
FreshStart 3y ago
[flagged]
alexpotato 3y ago
It's good to point out that Brazil (in the largest cities) already has the concept of "flying taxis", at least for the rich: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/15/world/sao-paulo-journal-rich-brazilians-rise-above-rush-hour-jams.html https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/15/world/sao-paulo-journal-r...
- brianbreslin 3y ago
  Ah was coming to point that out. SP, Mexico City, and a few other mega cities in LatAm are already relying on private helicopters for the ultra-rich to get around the cities. They probably have an advantage over any US market for these EVTOL vehicles as the in-city aerial regulations are already established to support this. FAA is more focused on airplanes than helicopters in the US
- konschubert 3y ago
  Millions suffering from the noise so mr corrupt can get to work. Talk about an underpriced externality.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    This also happens in the US, but it's mostly tourists rather than the super rich. In NYC we have the advocacy group "Stop The Chop" that is attempting to reduce the number of helicopter flights over expensive neighborhoods. I think it is doomed to fail; air traffic is regulated by the federal government, and I don't think they care at all. The best path is to just buy the heliport and shut it down, but I don't think anyone wants to spend that much money on it. ("If we can get it for free, yeah, screw anyone that wants to fly over our property. If we have to pay, honestly it's not that annoying." Don't tell them I said that.)
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago
  New York did once: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
reset2023 3y ago
Old thinking stock 100 years ago, old corporate/government structures can't get the internet. Their solutions always concern building physical things. They will never get it. A black swan event in the horizon will bring about a new structure that uses the physical world only for what is essential: health, water, food & shelter. Getting people from A to B and back is a solution from the 1900s industrial revolution that brought about cities.
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
boringg 3y ago
This sounds like fiction and a publicity stunt. I give there a 0.01% chance that flying taxis take off in Brazil.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mrguyorama 3y ago
"Flying Taxi" doesn't work. Either you try to do it cheaply and regularly kill riders because your underpaid maintenance staff missed a step somewhere, or you quadruple check every speck of dust to ensure people don't regularly and predictably die but then a single ride is "I'm too rich for public transport" price. What possible difference could change that status quo? We have commodity helicopters right now, but very few people commute anywhere by helicopter.

65 points by joak 3y ago

Embraer makes some very interesting mid-sized commercial planes. This piece is light on details and the price range seems crazy optimistic - can you believe you would only pay 2x or 3x what an Uber charges to fly over a city? Nevertheless, seems like a promising concept.

joak 3y ago
Sao Paulo is the city with the highest number of helicopters. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/20/brazil They probably know where the costs are. Maintenance and fuel I guess... And electric VTOLs are far cheaper on these two.
- nradov 3y ago
  That remains to be proven. In theory, maintenance might eventually be cheaper. But there are still a lot of mechanical parts which will require periodic manual inspection every certain number of cycles or operating hours. Electric motors are simpler than combustion engines but eVTOL designs tend to have a lot of them for control and reliability. Crew expenses will be similar (autonomous operation with passengers is still many years away). Electricity may be cheaper than fuel, but recharging times will be critical for profitable operation.
  - smugma 3y ago
    Battery swap probably makes more sense here.
pedrolins 3y ago
I was at a talk given by the president of Embraer-X (that's an Embraer subsidiary that looks into these riskier ventures), and he got into the details of how they validated their business plan of using these vehicles for urban transportation. They offered helicopter rides to one of Rio's major airports and charged R$100 per passenger (according to him, that's an accurate estimate of future prices once they make their eVTOL) at a loss just to see if there was demand. They got booked the entire year in advance.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  That is mostly because Brazilian traffic and public transport is atrocious given the city size. Rio de Janiero is a bit larger than Moscow, Paris and Guangzhou yet each have at least 5x the metro infrastructure.
kikokikokiko 3y ago
Brazilian guy here: Embraer is in deep trouble ever since before the pandemic, when their merge deal with Boeing went south after the Max debacle. I would really like to believe otherwise, but I can only see this as vaporware intended to pump the stock price of Embraer. Flying taxi drones as an economic viable alternative, on a 3rd world country nonetheless, is a hard nut to crack. If even their helicopter taxi venture proof of concept was not being profitable, using a proven technology. How in hell will they make this drone experiment be profitable then?
- epups 3y ago
  As far as I can tell, they experienced a dip during the COVID period but they have a healthy financial outlook right now: https://airinsight.com/embraer-improves-operating-profit-after-strong-q4/ https://airinsight.com/embraer-improves-operating-profit-aft...
xfalcox 3y ago
São Paulo traffic is so bad that even Uber had an Helicopter option here for a brief period. https://flyflapper.com/stories/uber-air/ https://flyflapper.com/stories/uber-air/

fwungy 3y ago

"Plan" is a weak verb. E.g. - I _plan_ to marry Ariane Grande.

itsyaboi 3y ago
Embraer is a big name in aviation. This is more like "Tom Cruise plans to marry Ariana Grande".
- kikokikokiko 3y ago
  Your analogy is better than it should ever be really. If Embraer really do launch this drone taxi service someday, it will be only to boost it's image as an aviation/inovation company, not because it would be profitable (it probably wouldn't, and it will not happen in the end). If Tom Cruise really do get engaged to Ariana someday, it will be to boost his image as a man's man, an action star that get all the ladies (he probably never enjoyed the fruit very much, and it will never happen in the end).

huqedato 3y ago

Wishful thinking, the electric flying taxi is always 10 years away in the future. Same story as the fusion power.

mschuster91 3y ago
It's a difference if it's some random startup looking to part incompetent investors from their funds (there have been way too many of these), legit startups, or a classic aviation player. In any case, when talking about startups, both Lilium Aviation (Munich) and Volocopter (Bruchsal) got actually flying prototypes into the air [1], and they're led by actually competent former Airbus people. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/projekte/artikel/wirtschaft/flugtaxi-lilium-volocopter-e674545/ https://www.sueddeutsche.de/projekte/artikel/wirtschaft/flug...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

diego_moita 3y ago

I'll believe when/if I see it. As they say in there, "Brazil is the country of the future and it will always be, never the country of the present". This taxi looks like a Brazilian future: always coming, never present. Embraer is skilled, but the manufacturing industry in Brazil is in decline. Besides, most of the money in the country is flowing into smaller towns in the countryside, following agricultural boom. Not too much need for helicopter taxis in there. Disclaimer: I am a "viralata", a Brazilian that ran away from the country.

sofixa 3y ago
> Embraer is skilled That's an understatement, they're a top 3 if not even top 2 aircraft manufacturer in the world. I'm not entirely convinced in the electric taxi model's financial viability, but Embraer are certainly capable of manufacturing them.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  That being said, Embraer almost threw in the towel and merged with Boeing had it not been for regulators blocking it.
  - myth2018 3y ago
    Wrong. The deal was abandoned by Boeing, as an unfolding of the 737-MAX major fiasco. And that merge wasn't Embraer "throwing the towel": Bombardier, Embraer's direct competitor, partnered up with Airbus, getting a critical competitive advantage. It was only natural for Embraer too seek a similar partnership.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > Bombardier, Embraer's direct competitor, partnered up with Airbus, getting a critical competitive advantage They didn't "partner up". They gave up their modern design (C-Series) to Airbus, then had a fire sale of the remaining assets like the CRJ series, all due to Boeing sabotage. Apart from Bombardier, Boeing are the other big losers from the whole debacle, because Airbus got a very good and modern design for "free" (assumes liabilities).

oniony 3y ago

Great, now I'll have to put up with factories flying around everywhere, littering the sky.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
Factory pattern considered harmful.
dghughes 3y ago
Amazon wanted to have dirigible factories hovering over cities and drones would fly out with orders. edit: warehouse not factory

FreshStart 3y ago

[flagged]

alexpotato 3y ago

It's good to point out that Brazil (in the largest cities) already has the concept of "flying taxis", at least for the rich: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/15/world/sao-paulo-journal-rich-brazilians-rise-above-rush-hour-jams.html https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/15/world/sao-paulo-journal-r...

brianbreslin 3y ago
Ah was coming to point that out. SP, Mexico City, and a few other mega cities in LatAm are already relying on private helicopters for the ultra-rich to get around the cities. They probably have an advantage over any US market for these EVTOL vehicles as the in-city aerial regulations are already established to support this. FAA is more focused on airplanes than helicopters in the US
konschubert 3y ago
Millions suffering from the noise so mr corrupt can get to work. Talk about an underpriced externality.
- jrockway 3y ago
  This also happens in the US, but it's mostly tourists rather than the super rich. In NYC we have the advocacy group "Stop The Chop" that is attempting to reduce the number of helicopter flights over expensive neighborhoods. I think it is doomed to fail; air traffic is regulated by the federal government, and I don't think they care at all. The best path is to just buy the heliport and shut it down, but I don't think anyone wants to spend that much money on it. ("If we can get it for free, yeah, screw anyone that wants to fly over our property. If we have to pay, honestly it's not that annoying." Don't tell them I said that.)
TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago
New York did once: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways
RamblingCTO 3y ago

reset2023 3y ago

Old thinking stock 100 years ago, old corporate/government structures can't get the internet. Their solutions always concern building physical things. They will never get it. A black swan event in the horizon will bring about a new structure that uses the physical world only for what is essential: health, water, food & shelter. Getting people from A to B and back is a solution from the 1900s industrial revolution that brought about cities.

networkchad 3y ago
[dead]

boringg 3y ago

This sounds like fiction and a publicity stunt. I give there a 0.01% chance that flying taxis take off in Brazil.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mrguyorama 3y ago

"Flying Taxi" doesn't work. Either you try to do it cheaply and regularly kill riders because your underpaid maintenance staff missed a step somewhere, or you quadruple check every speck of dust to ensure people don't regularly and predictably die but then a single ride is "I'm too rich for public transport" price. What possible difference could change that status quo? We have commodity helicopters right now, but very few people commute anywhere by helicopter.