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Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. The entire company is fascinating because t

Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. The entire company is fascinating because they holistically designed an entire system where every single part of it works in concert to deliver their unique experience. Nobody can really copy them because you can’t do it unless you start from a truly ground up perspective. Others who seem superficially similar on the surface simply can’t deliver a comparable experience because of this. Is there any good public writing going into detail about this? Lots has been written on how Costco is Costco but all my info on CCF has been from geeking out with insiders who are also passionate about system design.

CharlesW 3y ago
> Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. I mean, it's a themed casual dining experience along the lines of Rainforest Cafe, Buca di Beppo, Hard Rock Cafe, Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., etc. What "rules" are they breaking?
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  I'd also like to know. It seems like a lot of restaurants like BJ's Brewhouse which has a menu longer than a dictionary (exaggerating of course, but it's ridiculous). Of course nothing is THAT great.
  - techsupporter 3y ago
    The video that webwielder2 posted below from PolyMatter is a really good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 In short, it's about making an experience that draws people in who are looking for the comfort/familiarity/ease of a chain, while not just relying on that. The Cheesecake Factory is an above-average restaurant masquerading as a Sysco-food-reheating-service. The very large menu is a feature--something for everyone--that would be a bug if a lot of other restaurants tried it because the execution is often so dismal once a particular level of size or growth (or both) is reached.
    - CaptainNegative 3y ago
      "Something for everyone" is stretching it when they have one vegan entree: The Impossible Burger. The closest second option, if it even counts as a separate option, is the "Skinny" Impossible Burger, which comes with mayo that can be removed. Nothing else is close to vegan, unless you're into ordering Chicken Lettuce Wraps without Chicken.
      - account42 3y ago
        So it does seem they have something even for vegans. Something doesn't mean that the entire selection is built around your particular quirks.
        CaptainNegative 3y ago
        By that notion my home kitchen also has something for everyone because I have a tomato in the fridge. Where's my HN praise for being so culinarily flexible?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 3y ago
        True Vegan (no Honey etc) is unusually strict but “there are 9 vegan options at the Cheesecake Factory, plus a handful of other dishes that can be customized to make it vegan.” https://dietmenus.com/restaurant/the-cheesecake-factory https://dietmenus.com/restaurant/the-cheesecake-factory Vegetarian bumps that to 52 menu items.
        CaptainNegative 3y ago
        There are a few more options when generalizing beyond entrées, but still five of the items listed on that page are salads, with the other four being a side of beets, asparagus, artichoke, or edamame. Which, at double digit Calories, is only as much a reasonable meal for vegans as it is for carnists (that is to say not much of one).
  - Simulacra 3y ago
    Perhaps it's just me, but I always think the longer the menu the more food gets wasted.
    - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
      The bigger your throughput is the less food gets wasted because the variance of food needed for a day decreases. One restaurant with a big menu would be more efficient than two smaller restaurants with smaller menu.
    - ahstilde 3y ago
      In an industry with famously low margins, wasting food is literally throwing away cash.
    - shalmanese 3y ago
      The Cheesecake Factory has 2.5% food waste [0] compared to 4 - 10% in the rest of the industry [1]. [0] https://aviyer2010.com/2012/09/05/the-cheesecake-factory-and-2-5-food-waste/ https://aviyer2010.com/2012/09/05/the-cheesecake-factory-and... [1] https://www.upkeep.com/learning/how-to-calculate-restaurant-food-waste/ https://www.upkeep.com/learning/how-to-calculate-restaurant-...
    - HWR_14 3y ago
      This tends to be true. But not in this case.
  - scott_s 3y ago
    From the submitted article: > Proteins, sauces, veggies, the dressings that go in their gigantic salads, the chicken marsala and mushrooms — it’s cooked on the spot. If there’s any part of the Cheesecake Factory that resembles an industrial machine, it’s the multiple stations and line cooks needed to create handmade food for every meal. ... > “Their quality, their execution, and consistency across the country — it is always the same. And that’s a compliment! That’s impeccable,” pastry chef and Food Network star Young says, “The sauces, the dressings, everything is made in-house. That level of consistency doesn’t happen anywhere else.” This is in the last section, titled "The Cheesecake Factory is a marvel." That section is the most interesting part, because it talks about the execution required to make a large amount of a wide variety of food from scratch, at scale, consistently.
- stevenwoo 3y ago
  They make almost everything (baked desserts and cheesecake excepted) in house. Most casual dining places use a lot of Sysco pre-made stuff. This doesn't make it better but that's unusual for a chain, along with the high number of menu items.
  - smashed 3y ago
    You're saying the cheesecake factory makes everything except the actual cheese cakes?
    - pryelluw 3y ago
      They should maybe rebrand to The Cheesecake Outlet.
      - babypuncher 3y ago
        I think "Factory" works, since the cheesecakes are the menu item that is made in an actual factory instead of a kitchen.
        kuhewa 3y ago
        That would make sense if the sign was on the factory that made them and not the restaurant they are delivered to
        babypuncher 3y ago
        Perhaps "Cheesecake Factory Outlet" would be more to your liking?
    - stevenwoo 3y ago
      The article mentions they have separate bakeries (uncertain whether Cheesecake Factory owned or not), the in house kitchen/pantry/freezer is optimized around food prep/cooking everything else on menu.
    - 3y ago
- shalmanese 3y ago
  https://www.fsrmagazine.com/slideshows/26-casual-chains-earning-most-money-restaurant https://www.fsrmagazine.com/slideshows/26-casual-chains-earn... If you ignore the tiny chain at #1, look at the gap between CCF and their #2 competitor in sales per location. I think at some point I read that CCF was second only to Apple Store in revenue per square foot (I think in prime real estate corridors, excluding luxury or some similar criteria, it was a while ago). Edit: first watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myRFzVmH1tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myRFzVmH1tg . Best way to analogize it is that CCF is the Katie Ledecky of casual chain restaurants. Because people who write about business and tech don’t really go to casual chain restaurants, nobody appreciates their accomplishments like they do Costco or In-n-Out.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    You’re probably tight. Personally I’m not sure I’ve ever eaten in one. I like a good fast casual burger now and then it’s often a good choice late night or at an airport. Sometimes I’ll break down and eat at some casual chain at an airport or in some suburban location. But if there’s a location with a CCF there are probably other options I’m inclined to choose first.
    - zoky 3y ago
      Cheesecake Factory is actually pretty good, though. My go-to is the spicy cashew chicken, which is really tasty, and big enough that I always take some home. A tip if you ever do go: When the bread arrives, eschew the butter and ask for a side of ranch dressing to dip the bread in. It sounds weird (I don’t even like ranch normally) and everybody I’ve ever told about it looks at me skeptically, but once they try it they instantly become a convert.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        I’ve eaten at Cheesecake Factory a couple of times but it always feels so heavy to me. I’d rather pay the higher prices at Din Tai Feng and get more manageable portions.
- ttymck 3y ago
  What is the theme?
  - irrational 3y ago
    The one near me has an Egyptian theme. The main room is a hypostyle hall, lotus columns and everything. It’s a bit like visiting Luxor, only, the holy of holies would be where the bathrooms are.
  - currymj 3y ago
    the theme is "Cheesecake Factory". very weird postmodern mix of different ornamental elements from world civilizations throughout history.
- listenallyall 3y ago
  Cheesecake Factory is not like any of these.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 7speter 3y ago
  The big rule they break is that they have a gigantic menu. Its the actual antithesis of what gordon ramsey tries to teach restaurant owners over and over in his show Kitchen Nightmares.
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    Which is why they're so interesting to study! What will also be interesting imo is seeing what CCF looks like in another 20 years after we've (maybe) gone through another recession. Will they cut back the menu to save labor costs from needing so many people who can cook wildly different dishes at the same time? Smaller restaurants with less kitchen space? More centralization of food prep that is then shipped into an individual location flash frozen? Businesses that try to expand too much (in all senses of the idea) will face scaling issues and potentially need to cut scope to increase efficiency and lower costs, or be forced to raise prices to compensate. CCF has been around for 45 years according to Wikipedia and has only gotten bigger and more complex at the individual store level. For a restaurant, that is an incredible feat and deserves a lot of analysis that can hopefully be shared with smaller chains or owner-operators to help them find profitability with their existing "small" menus.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Cheesecake factory is probably maxed out in terms of expansion. They are only found in the one or two sides of a city that has residents with higher incomes, in or near the mall with the Apple Store and Nordstroms. Their market cap has not gone anywhere in 10+ years and they earn meager profit margins, so I assume people whose job it is to analyze the businesses have mostly predicted there is not much room for expansion.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        I had never thought about it much and I don’t routinely eat out locally but the one location I could identify off the top of my head, it’s because I sometimes go to the Apple Store in the mall.
    - 3y ago
oatmeal1 3y ago
> Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. I read the article. It doesn't read like he understood 'the rules' at all. > Overton told Thrillist in that same interview that he wouldn’t have made the menu so big and expansive if he had known more about the industry and how restaurants are supposed to operate.
- valianteffort 3y ago
  I'm surprised anyone enjoys anything besides the cheesecake. I've been to several locations with different people so it's not isolated to me or one restaurant. The pasta sauce is so watered down it doesn't even stick to the pasta. Their food is mediocore at best.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    My big letdown was the cheesecake. Pretty average but with lots of different flavor options. Definitely nowhere near dedicated cheesecake bakeries. Also it was expensive
  - xeromal 3y ago
    It really depends on the person. Clearly they're doing something right.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I think their cheesecake is mediocre at best as well. But then, I have no nostalgic or warm feelings about The Cheesecake Factory. It's just a chain restaurant, with everything that comes with that. I don't avoid the place. It's mediocre, not bad, but I'll always look to see if there's a better option around.
    - JuanPosadas 3y ago
      It's a _mall_ chain restaurant that's hours away from where I grew up. I have no idea what the nostalgia would be about.
  - 3y ago
asciimike 3y ago
As a side note, my favorite writing on Costco being Costco is here: https://minesafetydisclosures.com/blog/2018/6/18/costco https://minesafetydisclosures.com/blog/2018/6/18/costco
- shalmanese 3y ago
  Mine Safety Disclosures is one of the most slept on blogs! Everything they write is a banger!
  - shostack 3y ago
    Can I get this in newsletter format or something?
    - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
      https://github.com/rss2email/rss2email https://github.com/rss2email/rss2email
  - philsnow 3y ago
    I'm not familiar with this idiomatic use of "sleep on", can you explain it a bit? Is it like "discounted" (not as in lower price, but as in to hold a low opinion of)?
    - reaperman 3y ago
      It's modern slang for "underrated".[0] 0: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slept%20on https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slept%20on
- fbdab103 3y ago
  This was way too engaging. Has there ever been a more recent follow-up with updated numbers?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
chii 3y ago
> Is there any good public writing going into detail about this? some details have been outline in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0
jglamine 3y ago
Culver's is an example of doing the same thing for fast food. Large menu, breaks all the traditional fast-food rules. But somehow works and people love it.

CharlesW 3y ago

> Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. I mean, it's a themed casual dining experience along the lines of Rainforest Cafe, Buca di Beppo, Hard Rock Cafe, Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., etc. What "rules" are they breaking?

7thaccount 3y ago
I'd also like to know. It seems like a lot of restaurants like BJ's Brewhouse which has a menu longer than a dictionary (exaggerating of course, but it's ridiculous). Of course nothing is THAT great.
- techsupporter 3y ago
  The video that webwielder2 posted below from PolyMatter is a really good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 In short, it's about making an experience that draws people in who are looking for the comfort/familiarity/ease of a chain, while not just relying on that. The Cheesecake Factory is an above-average restaurant masquerading as a Sysco-food-reheating-service. The very large menu is a feature--something for everyone--that would be a bug if a lot of other restaurants tried it because the execution is often so dismal once a particular level of size or growth (or both) is reached.
  - CaptainNegative 3y ago
    "Something for everyone" is stretching it when they have one vegan entree: The Impossible Burger. The closest second option, if it even counts as a separate option, is the "Skinny" Impossible Burger, which comes with mayo that can be removed. Nothing else is close to vegan, unless you're into ordering Chicken Lettuce Wraps without Chicken.
    - account42 3y ago
      So it does seem they have something even for vegans. Something doesn't mean that the entire selection is built around your particular quirks.
      - CaptainNegative 3y ago
        By that notion my home kitchen also has something for everyone because I have a tomato in the fridge. Where's my HN praise for being so culinarily flexible?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 3y ago
      True Vegan (no Honey etc) is unusually strict but “there are 9 vegan options at the Cheesecake Factory, plus a handful of other dishes that can be customized to make it vegan.” https://dietmenus.com/restaurant/the-cheesecake-factory https://dietmenus.com/restaurant/the-cheesecake-factory Vegetarian bumps that to 52 menu items.
      - CaptainNegative 3y ago
        There are a few more options when generalizing beyond entrées, but still five of the items listed on that page are salads, with the other four being a side of beets, asparagus, artichoke, or edamame. Which, at double digit Calories, is only as much a reasonable meal for vegans as it is for carnists (that is to say not much of one).
- Simulacra 3y ago
  Perhaps it's just me, but I always think the longer the menu the more food gets wasted.
  - LudwigNagasena 3y ago
    The bigger your throughput is the less food gets wasted because the variance of food needed for a day decreases. One restaurant with a big menu would be more efficient than two smaller restaurants with smaller menu.
  - ahstilde 3y ago
    In an industry with famously low margins, wasting food is literally throwing away cash.
  - shalmanese 3y ago
    The Cheesecake Factory has 2.5% food waste [0] compared to 4 - 10% in the rest of the industry [1]. [0] https://aviyer2010.com/2012/09/05/the-cheesecake-factory-and-2-5-food-waste/ https://aviyer2010.com/2012/09/05/the-cheesecake-factory-and... [1] https://www.upkeep.com/learning/how-to-calculate-restaurant-food-waste/ https://www.upkeep.com/learning/how-to-calculate-restaurant-...
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    This tends to be true. But not in this case.
- scott_s 3y ago
  From the submitted article: > Proteins, sauces, veggies, the dressings that go in their gigantic salads, the chicken marsala and mushrooms — it’s cooked on the spot. If there’s any part of the Cheesecake Factory that resembles an industrial machine, it’s the multiple stations and line cooks needed to create handmade food for every meal. ... > “Their quality, their execution, and consistency across the country — it is always the same. And that’s a compliment! That’s impeccable,” pastry chef and Food Network star Young says, “The sauces, the dressings, everything is made in-house. That level of consistency doesn’t happen anywhere else.” This is in the last section, titled "The Cheesecake Factory is a marvel." That section is the most interesting part, because it talks about the execution required to make a large amount of a wide variety of food from scratch, at scale, consistently.
stevenwoo 3y ago
They make almost everything (baked desserts and cheesecake excepted) in house. Most casual dining places use a lot of Sysco pre-made stuff. This doesn't make it better but that's unusual for a chain, along with the high number of menu items.
- smashed 3y ago
  You're saying the cheesecake factory makes everything except the actual cheese cakes?
  - pryelluw 3y ago
    They should maybe rebrand to The Cheesecake Outlet.
    - babypuncher 3y ago
      I think "Factory" works, since the cheesecakes are the menu item that is made in an actual factory instead of a kitchen.
      - kuhewa 3y ago
        That would make sense if the sign was on the factory that made them and not the restaurant they are delivered to
        babypuncher 3y ago
        Perhaps "Cheesecake Factory Outlet" would be more to your liking?
  - stevenwoo 3y ago
    The article mentions they have separate bakeries (uncertain whether Cheesecake Factory owned or not), the in house kitchen/pantry/freezer is optimized around food prep/cooking everything else on menu.
  - 3y ago
shalmanese 3y ago
https://www.fsrmagazine.com/slideshows/26-casual-chains-earning-most-money-restaurant https://www.fsrmagazine.com/slideshows/26-casual-chains-earn... If you ignore the tiny chain at #1, look at the gap between CCF and their #2 competitor in sales per location. I think at some point I read that CCF was second only to Apple Store in revenue per square foot (I think in prime real estate corridors, excluding luxury or some similar criteria, it was a while ago). Edit: first watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myRFzVmH1tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myRFzVmH1tg . Best way to analogize it is that CCF is the Katie Ledecky of casual chain restaurants. Because people who write about business and tech don’t really go to casual chain restaurants, nobody appreciates their accomplishments like they do Costco or In-n-Out.
- ghaff 3y ago
  You’re probably tight. Personally I’m not sure I’ve ever eaten in one. I like a good fast casual burger now and then it’s often a good choice late night or at an airport. Sometimes I’ll break down and eat at some casual chain at an airport or in some suburban location. But if there’s a location with a CCF there are probably other options I’m inclined to choose first.
  - zoky 3y ago
    Cheesecake Factory is actually pretty good, though. My go-to is the spicy cashew chicken, which is really tasty, and big enough that I always take some home. A tip if you ever do go: When the bread arrives, eschew the butter and ask for a side of ranch dressing to dip the bread in. It sounds weird (I don’t even like ranch normally) and everybody I’ve ever told about it looks at me skeptically, but once they try it they instantly become a convert.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I’ve eaten at Cheesecake Factory a couple of times but it always feels so heavy to me. I’d rather pay the higher prices at Din Tai Feng and get more manageable portions.
ttymck 3y ago
What is the theme?
- irrational 3y ago
  The one near me has an Egyptian theme. The main room is a hypostyle hall, lotus columns and everything. It’s a bit like visiting Luxor, only, the holy of holies would be where the bathrooms are.
- currymj 3y ago
  the theme is "Cheesecake Factory". very weird postmodern mix of different ornamental elements from world civilizations throughout history.
listenallyall 3y ago
Cheesecake Factory is not like any of these.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
7speter 3y ago
The big rule they break is that they have a gigantic menu. Its the actual antithesis of what gordon ramsey tries to teach restaurant owners over and over in his show Kitchen Nightmares.
- yurishimo 3y ago
  Which is why they're so interesting to study! What will also be interesting imo is seeing what CCF looks like in another 20 years after we've (maybe) gone through another recession. Will they cut back the menu to save labor costs from needing so many people who can cook wildly different dishes at the same time? Smaller restaurants with less kitchen space? More centralization of food prep that is then shipped into an individual location flash frozen? Businesses that try to expand too much (in all senses of the idea) will face scaling issues and potentially need to cut scope to increase efficiency and lower costs, or be forced to raise prices to compensate. CCF has been around for 45 years according to Wikipedia and has only gotten bigger and more complex at the individual store level. For a restaurant, that is an incredible feat and deserves a lot of analysis that can hopefully be shared with smaller chains or owner-operators to help them find profitability with their existing "small" menus.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Cheesecake factory is probably maxed out in terms of expansion. They are only found in the one or two sides of a city that has residents with higher incomes, in or near the mall with the Apple Store and Nordstroms. Their market cap has not gone anywhere in 10+ years and they earn meager profit margins, so I assume people whose job it is to analyze the businesses have mostly predicted there is not much room for expansion.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I had never thought about it much and I don’t routinely eat out locally but the one location I could identify off the top of my head, it’s because I sometimes go to the Apple Store in the mall.
  - 3y ago

oatmeal1 3y ago

> Cheesecake Factory, similar to Costco, is the ultimate example of how you have to know the rules to break the rules. I read the article. It doesn't read like he understood 'the rules' at all. > Overton told Thrillist in that same interview that he wouldn’t have made the menu so big and expansive if he had known more about the industry and how restaurants are supposed to operate.

valianteffort 3y ago
I'm surprised anyone enjoys anything besides the cheesecake. I've been to several locations with different people so it's not isolated to me or one restaurant. The pasta sauce is so watered down it doesn't even stick to the pasta. Their food is mediocore at best.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  My big letdown was the cheesecake. Pretty average but with lots of different flavor options. Definitely nowhere near dedicated cheesecake bakeries. Also it was expensive
- xeromal 3y ago
  It really depends on the person. Clearly they're doing something right.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I think their cheesecake is mediocre at best as well. But then, I have no nostalgic or warm feelings about The Cheesecake Factory. It's just a chain restaurant, with everything that comes with that. I don't avoid the place. It's mediocre, not bad, but I'll always look to see if there's a better option around.
  - JuanPosadas 3y ago
    It's a _mall_ chain restaurant that's hours away from where I grew up. I have no idea what the nostalgia would be about.
- 3y ago

asciimike 3y ago

As a side note, my favorite writing on Costco being Costco is here: https://minesafetydisclosures.com/blog/2018/6/18/costco https://minesafetydisclosures.com/blog/2018/6/18/costco

shalmanese 3y ago
Mine Safety Disclosures is one of the most slept on blogs! Everything they write is a banger!
- shostack 3y ago
  Can I get this in newsletter format or something?
  - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
    https://github.com/rss2email/rss2email https://github.com/rss2email/rss2email
- philsnow 3y ago
  I'm not familiar with this idiomatic use of "sleep on", can you explain it a bit? Is it like "discounted" (not as in lower price, but as in to hold a low opinion of)?
  - reaperman 3y ago
    It's modern slang for "underrated".[0] 0: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slept%20on https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slept%20on
fbdab103 3y ago
This was way too engaging. Has there ever been a more recent follow-up with updated numbers?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago

chii 3y ago

> Is there any good public writing going into detail about this? some details have been outline in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndqsvTIveR0

jglamine 3y ago

Culver's is an example of doing the same thing for fast food. Large menu, breaks all the traditional fast-food rules. But somehow works and people love it.