6 ms·

One catch would be the use of lead would restrict the use cases fairly heavily

by xxpor 3y ago

phatskat 3y ago
> fairly heavily Not being in sciences I can’t tell if this sentence is legit or you just got a good joke in there
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the use of lead would restrict the use cases Most people aren't licking the insides of their computer processors, fusion reactors, radio telescopes and MRIs.
- amatecha 3y ago
  It's more about producing toxic waste and contaminating the environment - no one's licking the solder joints in their electronics either, but you still have to use lead-free solder. For instance in EU, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A02011L0065-20230301#B-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... Canada, https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/environmental-workplace-health/environmental-contaminants/lead/lead-information-package-some-commonly-asked-questions-about-lead-human-health.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/environmenta... USA, https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > more about producing toxic waste Compared to refining traditional conductors and recycling/disposing of used electronics? > you still have to use lead-free solder One, fumes. Two, people touch their solder and then grab a cookie. We're premature. The results need to be proven. But the benefits of RTP superconductors is mindblowingly high enough that risks from lead contamination (far from a novel problem, I might add) can be safely ignored.
    - amatecha 3y ago
      It's like fundamental best practice to always wash your hands thoroughly with soap if you handle leaded solder. You might want to read more in the links I shared about the harmful effects of lead before "whatabouting" to other problems of electronics recycling/waste. and yes, it's entirely possible this application would get an exemption from usual restrictions on lead. For example in the EU directive, one of the exemptions is: > Lead in solders for servers, storage and storage array systems, network infrastructure equipment for switching, signalling, transmission, and network management for telecommunications
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > fundamental best practice to always wash your hands thoroughly with soap if you handle leaded solder But people don't, particularly students, and sometimes they also let their irons run too hot at which point fumes become an issue. Also, there is an easy alternative, so why not. If the choice is lead superconductor or not, nobody is going to pause on a use case because there is lead. If they do, and if this is real, please let me know--I'd love to have them as competition. > might want to read more in the links I shared about the harmful effects of lead before "whatabouting" to other problems of electronics recycling/waste The point is, whether a RTP superconductor does or doesn't contain lead is irrelevant to its adoption. The advantages are too large. What current directives say are, similarly, irrelevant.
        amatecha 3y ago
        Oh, sure. You could have just said that then. You instead originally said something about "no one licks the insides of the computers", which isn't the reason lead in electronics/PCBs/etc. is restricted, and what I was pointing out.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        Was being cheeky in response to OP claiming "the use of lead would restrict the use cases fairly heavily."
  - amatecha 3y ago
    Why is this being downvoted into oblivion? It's a completely valid, good-faith point explaining why lead has restrictions on its uses other than "someone might lick it"... It would be nice if people actually responded and vocalized their disagreement or described the flaws in my reasoning, rather than just suppressing my message.
petsfed 3y ago
Its not a dirty secret, but just like the rules on chemicals under the organic certification, if you can show that there's no way to do what you want to do with lead-free, you can get an exemption. I suspect that "significantly lowers the cost of power generation" would outweigh "contains lead".
- amatecha 3y ago
  Yeah, I just mentioned in another comment that there already exist exemptions such as server/networking hardware: "Lead in solders for servers, storage and storage array systems, network infrastructure equipment for switching, signalling, transmission, and network management for telecommunications" ( https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A02011L0065-20230301#B-14 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... )
- kibwen 3y ago
  > if you can show that there's no way to do what you want to do with lead-free The bar is even lower than that. For example, bullets are still made of lead, not because it's necessary, but because it's cheap, and despite the fact that it contaminates the meat of the hunted animal with lead.
  - hollerith 3y ago
    Tangentially, the US Army has completely stopped using lead in bullets. Their 5.56 NATO ammo has copper where the lead used to be (i.e., inside a brass jacket) which reduces performance because copper is only 2/3 as dense as lead.
    - pnpnp 3y ago
      To be fair, the US Army puts a looooot of ammo in the ground, which can have pretty severe consequences. The consumer market still uses it, which is probably a tiny fraction of what the military uses in training.
    - kibwen 3y ago
reaperman 3y ago
For the benefits of superconduction, I imagine RoHS exemptions would be made.
carabiner 3y ago
Lead is used everywhere. Not in paint anymore but you can buy lead weights at hardware stores. Don't grind it up and put it in your muni water supply, but it's a household substance that is harmful if ingested, like many others.
- geph2021 3y ago
  another example, you can still buy lead based solder, even at a local hardware store.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Also lead acid batteries which have ~ 50 lbs of lead sulfide in them (which also releases toxic gas if melted!)
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      Sulfate, perhaps.
  - tehnub 3y ago
    Is lead based solder not standard? (I've never soldered.)
    - pubby 3y ago
      Both lead solder and lead-free solder are commonplace. Lead is standard in aerospace and military applications, while lead-free is standard in most products sold in the EU.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > you can buy lead weights at hardware stores Those are often bismuth weights.
fijiaarone 3y ago
If you think lead is scary, wait till you hear about carbon dioxide.
- tga_d 3y ago
  I mean, modulo edge cases, lead is a lot scarier than CO2; it's only because of the ridiculously obscene quantities of CO2 being produced that it's a more immanent threat. There's obviously not enough information yet to weigh the value/consequences of the amount of lead used here, but if your measure of whether something is a good idea for mitigating carbon emissions is just "it's not carbon emissions", you're going to find yourself kicking a can a bit down the road, or (much) worse.
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    Maybe they could pack it into epoxy encapsulated modules of standard size, so you could always reuse it in another motor or transformer or what have you, assuming you were willing to disassemble the scrapped gadget?
- labster 3y ago
  If you think CO2 is scary, wait til you hear about methyl mercury.
- SomeRndName11 3y ago
  If you think carbon dioxide is scary, wait for your cup of Pepsi. (Low toxicity of CO2 is actually one of the reasons it is not treated seriously enough).
Roark66 3y ago
Cobalt is way more toxic than lead and yet every consumer grade lithium ion battery contains it. The fact something is toxic is not that important. What is that we manage the end of life for the products it contains responsibly.
- rezonant 3y ago
  Well yes and that its properly contained or otherwise shown to not pose an ingestion or undue exposure risk
sheepscreek 3y ago
This is a phenomenal find in any case. As for how to avoid lead poisoning, coat the lead with a thin layer of some substance, perhaps a plastic or rubber that doesn’t affect its magnetic capabilities. Or perhaps they can galvanize it with safer metal, leaving a really small part exposed.
- throwawaymobule 3y ago
  I think people are talking about RoHS rather than practical danger. Since RoHS is incredibly strict about quantities, e.g. if you can mechanically seperate a piece of the widget, that's what gets measured. It'd likely be exempt though.

One catch would be the use of lead would restrict the use cases fairly heavily

by xxpor 3y ago

One catch would be the use of lead would restrict the use cases fairly heavily

phatskat 3y ago

> fairly heavily Not being in sciences I can’t tell if this sentence is legit or you just got a good joke in there

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> the use of lead would restrict the use cases Most people aren't licking the insides of their computer processors, fusion reactors, radio telescopes and MRIs.

amatecha 3y ago
It's more about producing toxic waste and contaminating the environment - no one's licking the solder joints in their electronics either, but you still have to use lead-free solder. For instance in EU, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A02011L0065-20230301#B-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... Canada, https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/environmental-workplace-health/environmental-contaminants/lead/lead-information-package-some-commonly-asked-questions-about-lead-human-health.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/environmenta... USA, https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > more about producing toxic waste Compared to refining traditional conductors and recycling/disposing of used electronics? > you still have to use lead-free solder One, fumes. Two, people touch their solder and then grab a cookie. We're premature. The results need to be proven. But the benefits of RTP superconductors is mindblowingly high enough that risks from lead contamination (far from a novel problem, I might add) can be safely ignored.
  - amatecha 3y ago
    It's like fundamental best practice to always wash your hands thoroughly with soap if you handle leaded solder. You might want to read more in the links I shared about the harmful effects of lead before "whatabouting" to other problems of electronics recycling/waste. and yes, it's entirely possible this application would get an exemption from usual restrictions on lead. For example in the EU directive, one of the exemptions is: > Lead in solders for servers, storage and storage array systems, network infrastructure equipment for switching, signalling, transmission, and network management for telecommunications
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > fundamental best practice to always wash your hands thoroughly with soap if you handle leaded solder But people don't, particularly students, and sometimes they also let their irons run too hot at which point fumes become an issue. Also, there is an easy alternative, so why not. If the choice is lead superconductor or not, nobody is going to pause on a use case because there is lead. If they do, and if this is real, please let me know--I'd love to have them as competition. > might want to read more in the links I shared about the harmful effects of lead before "whatabouting" to other problems of electronics recycling/waste The point is, whether a RTP superconductor does or doesn't contain lead is irrelevant to its adoption. The advantages are too large. What current directives say are, similarly, irrelevant.
      - amatecha 3y ago
        Oh, sure. You could have just said that then. You instead originally said something about "no one licks the insides of the computers", which isn't the reason lead in electronics/PCBs/etc. is restricted, and what I was pointing out.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        Was being cheeky in response to OP claiming "the use of lead would restrict the use cases fairly heavily."
- amatecha 3y ago
  Why is this being downvoted into oblivion? It's a completely valid, good-faith point explaining why lead has restrictions on its uses other than "someone might lick it"... It would be nice if people actually responded and vocalized their disagreement or described the flaws in my reasoning, rather than just suppressing my message.

petsfed 3y ago

Its not a dirty secret, but just like the rules on chemicals under the organic certification, if you can show that there's no way to do what you want to do with lead-free, you can get an exemption. I suspect that "significantly lowers the cost of power generation" would outweigh "contains lead".

amatecha 3y ago
Yeah, I just mentioned in another comment that there already exist exemptions such as server/networking hardware: "Lead in solders for servers, storage and storage array systems, network infrastructure equipment for switching, signalling, transmission, and network management for telecommunications" ( https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A02011L0065-20230301#B-14 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... )
kibwen 3y ago
> if you can show that there's no way to do what you want to do with lead-free The bar is even lower than that. For example, bullets are still made of lead, not because it's necessary, but because it's cheap, and despite the fact that it contaminates the meat of the hunted animal with lead.
- hollerith 3y ago
  Tangentially, the US Army has completely stopped using lead in bullets. Their 5.56 NATO ammo has copper where the lead used to be (i.e., inside a brass jacket) which reduces performance because copper is only 2/3 as dense as lead.
  - pnpnp 3y ago
    To be fair, the US Army puts a looooot of ammo in the ground, which can have pretty severe consequences. The consumer market still uses it, which is probably a tiny fraction of what the military uses in training.
  - kibwen 3y ago

reaperman 3y ago

For the benefits of superconduction, I imagine RoHS exemptions would be made.

carabiner 3y ago

Lead is used everywhere. Not in paint anymore but you can buy lead weights at hardware stores. Don't grind it up and put it in your muni water supply, but it's a household substance that is harmful if ingested, like many others.

geph2021 3y ago
another example, you can still buy lead based solder, even at a local hardware store.
- lazide 3y ago
  Also lead acid batteries which have ~ 50 lbs of lead sulfide in them (which also releases toxic gas if melted!)
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Sulfate, perhaps.
- tehnub 3y ago
  Is lead based solder not standard? (I've never soldered.)
  - pubby 3y ago
    Both lead solder and lead-free solder are commonplace. Lead is standard in aerospace and military applications, while lead-free is standard in most products sold in the EU.
marcosdumay 3y ago
> you can buy lead weights at hardware stores Those are often bismuth weights.

fijiaarone 3y ago

If you think lead is scary, wait till you hear about carbon dioxide.

tga_d 3y ago
I mean, modulo edge cases, lead is a lot scarier than CO2; it's only because of the ridiculously obscene quantities of CO2 being produced that it's a more immanent threat. There's obviously not enough information yet to weigh the value/consequences of the amount of lead used here, but if your measure of whether something is a good idea for mitigating carbon emissions is just "it's not carbon emissions", you're going to find yourself kicking a can a bit down the road, or (much) worse.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  Maybe they could pack it into epoxy encapsulated modules of standard size, so you could always reuse it in another motor or transformer or what have you, assuming you were willing to disassemble the scrapped gadget?
labster 3y ago
If you think CO2 is scary, wait til you hear about methyl mercury.
SomeRndName11 3y ago
If you think carbon dioxide is scary, wait for your cup of Pepsi. (Low toxicity of CO2 is actually one of the reasons it is not treated seriously enough).

Roark66 3y ago

Cobalt is way more toxic than lead and yet every consumer grade lithium ion battery contains it. The fact something is toxic is not that important. What is that we manage the end of life for the products it contains responsibly.

rezonant 3y ago
Well yes and that its properly contained or otherwise shown to not pose an ingestion or undue exposure risk

sheepscreek 3y ago

This is a phenomenal find in any case. As for how to avoid lead poisoning, coat the lead with a thin layer of some substance, perhaps a plastic or rubber that doesn’t affect its magnetic capabilities. Or perhaps they can galvanize it with safer metal, leaving a really small part exposed.

throwawaymobule 3y ago
I think people are talking about RoHS rather than practical danger. Since RoHS is incredibly strict about quantities, e.g. if you can mechanically seperate a piece of the widget, that's what gets measured. It'd likely be exempt though.