11 ms·

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family

by jylam 3y ago

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues, that's even mandatory for mass-layoffs (through unions and/or elected representatives). You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3

chaosharmonic 3y ago
That would be pretty suspect here too now, actually [0] [0] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/nlrb-non-disparagement-confidentiality-provisions/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/la...
foobarian 3y ago
Would that sentence in itself be illegal? Or just if the promised action is performed?
- jylam 3y ago
  For a company to threaten to do this.
FredPret 3y ago
As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, keeping more of your money = stronger property rights
- oldandboring 3y ago
  This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories and observations from the perspective of the employee, where US workers have no rights and would be rioting in the streets if we hadn't been brainwashed by corporate media. Here on earth, what you wrote is much closer to the truth. The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    > with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.
        FredPret 3y ago
        It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
gonehome 3y ago
Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.
- suryong 3y ago
  There are places like HK and Singapore where firing is super easy, yet the software industry in those places still pales to USA and even to Europe in some cases
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    The population is not comparable though. I guess that's why many people compare US to Europe, and not US to Sweden.
- manuelmoreale 3y ago
  > I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there Care to elaborate on why this is a bad thing? Also, software salaries are not all salaries and are probably not all that representative to the bigger picture.
  - gonehome 3y ago
    Growth makes people rich, billion dollar companies create a lot of wealth and the US is a very rich country in part because of this. Some employees that capture a piece of that wealth funnel it back into more startups/growth (Silicon Valley) creating more jobs, more growth and more wealth (not to mention whatever the new startup is doing is usually creating a new thing people want too). Software salaries are extremely high, but software companies in the US pay a lot in non software roles too. On net you end up way in a way richer society that operates this way vs. one that incentivizes not operating this way. That doesn't mean there should be zero protections from abuse, but it's important to be cautious about the net effect of these sorts of regulations and how you can end up trapped in a worse local maximum because of them. In a society where you can take bigger risks, make bigger bets, you can get a lot bigger wins at scale. I think that's a good/important thing.
somenits 3y ago
I could respond with something equally condescending and sarcastic like “You Europeans should try not legislating yourselves into laughably low salaries,” but that would be rude and counterproductive.
- ChoHag 3y ago
  [dead]
systemvoltage 3y ago
Tbh, I prefer the American style (both as someone who has worked as a employee and someone who has employed). I also think this type of European mentality is the reason for its stagnation. Constant regulation that saps the energy out of amazing talent in Europe.
aroundtown 3y ago
> You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3 I wish we could fight for more rights. We are too spread out for protests to work. The politicians do everything they can to separate themselves from their electorate. And the average person doesn't have enough money to weather a week of no paychecks. Meanwhile half the populace gets angry at the thought of helping out anyone beneath them as they don't want them to get ahead. The worst is that you have a very vocal minority trying to constantly burn down the house so that they can be king of the burn pit.
- stanjo 3y ago
  This is very succinct. I was raised to value "a hard day's work," and while I still do, I realize as an adult that I should know who or what I'm working for.
- wallmountedtv 3y ago
  > I wish we could fight for more rights. We are too spread out for protests to work. One word, Unions. Its why Europe is doing so well with workers rights in STEM today compared to America.
quux 3y ago
Is that kind of language legal in states like CA and NY with WARN laws?
- QuinnyPig 3y ago
  This will depend upon how large your family is.
- pixelatedindex 3y ago
  WARN just states that you need to give advanced notice, and if you don’t then you have to give severance. Usually you have to sign a release to get your severance, and that includes being in good standing. I’m not sure if the employer can define what “good standing” is, or if it’s a legally binding term. All this to say, it’s probably legal.
anon291 3y ago
> You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3 What is the purpose of these 'rights'? As a software engineer in America, who's been laid off many times, I get (1) unemployment, (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared),(3) a free vacation for however long as I want, (4) lots of savings because I make so much more than my European counterparts, and (5) a great job market so I can rinse and repeat 1-5. Exactly what am I missing? Having spoken to many non-American devs... they're the ones being abused by being forced to work for sub-market wages for very little gain, and very little opportunity should they decide to branch out on their own.
- aix1 3y ago
  > been laid off many times How does one end up being laid off many times? Have you had a long career or do you specifically seek out high-risk high-reward jobs? Or just the roll of the dice?
  - anon291 3y ago
    High-risk high-reward. Lots of startups. Some succeed. Some go under.
  - boondoggle16 3y ago
    Not the op but, I've seen this for lots of reasons. Sometimes just a roll of the dice. Large companies tend to lay off more. If you've only worked in startups, it's very possible you may never be laid off. I've never been laid off despite working 20 years in industry. Working in banks, FAGMAN, etc, you are much more likely to be laid off. I guess you could consider that high-risk, but those jobs are low-risk overall imo, because they pay a lot more than startups.
- SaintGhurka 3y ago
  >> (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared) Could you explain this one? Do you mean via medicaid?
vore 3y ago
It makes no sense to put the blame on individuals like this. I am no fan of the lack of workers' rights in the US, but the holier-than-thou European smugness is really not appreciated, given how little recourse people have in the American system.
- cassepipe 3y ago
  I don't think the "holier-than-thou European smugness" is the reason why people lack workers' rights in the US. Most americans have never talked to a European person. But that certainly is the narrative some billionaire backed media is pushing. You only have the recourses you fought for. Having a culture where an organized workforce is not seen as rampant bolshevism would be a good start.
  - vore 3y ago
    I didn't say European attitudes were responsible for workers' rights in the US being bad: that would be a hell of a cause. It's just extremely tiring when Europeans come in to flex their workers' rights super smugly like this <3 – yes, we know it's bad, we don't need someone to come rub it in every time.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    The smugness is believing that if you oppose European style regulations in anyway it is because you are brain washed by "billionaire backed media " and clearly have not seen the light as to how wonderful everything about the European style utopia of perfection we are missing in the backwaters of misery and abuse that is the United States
dudul 3y ago
You should fight for higher salaries sometime (sic) <3 Additionally, a company putting this language in their termination agreement doesn't make it legal.
cperciva 3y ago
If "social contacts made through your membership in the family" are covered by non-disclosure/non-solicitation, conceivably an ex-employee could be liable for damages? I agree that "withholding pay" is not the answer here, but if it went to court it might net out in the end.
Twirrim 3y ago
> You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues For all the other just absurd lack of rights employees have in the US, that at least is one that employees do have. Companies are legally _not allowed_ to stop you from discussing your salary with coworkers, or punish you in any way for you having done so.
- TheRealPomax 3y ago
  Actually, if you're not unionized companies are 100% allowed to fire you for whatever reason they like, such as talking about your salary, as long as the underlying reason does not run afoul of anti-discrimination law (which discussing salary won't) and they pay you full severance due to it being a "termination without cause".
  - ddq 3y ago
    https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages# https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
    - jehb 3y ago
      "We're not firing you for discussing your wages, we're firing you for leaking proprietary individual labor budget information with unauthorized employees."
    - TheRealPomax 3y ago
      That's the best part! They don't have to fire you with a reason, at-will employment means they can just fire you and you're going to have to prove in court it could only have been because you were talking about your salary. Good luck! You just show up to the office, your fob doesn't work, and security walks out to inform you that you don't work here anymore and to expect an email from HR. (Will a good company do this? No. Could they if they wanted to, and totally get away with it? You bet!)
      - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thumbuddy 3y ago
The US mostly has dystopian workers rights laws
xhevahir 3y ago
"You should fight for some more rights sometime" comes across as pretty condescending, regardless of the trailing emoticon. And unduly self- congratulatory, too--just as it's not within the realm of possibility for the average American worker to change the system they've inherited, it's unlikely that you yourself did a great deal to further the labor-rights regime of Western Europe.
phpisthebest 3y ago
Americans do not look to government to protect, coddle or provide for them. That is the big difference. I neither want nor desire government to be my parent

by jylam 3y ago

chaosharmonic 3y ago

That would be pretty suspect here too now, actually [0] [0] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/nlrb-non-disparagement-confidentiality-provisions/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/la...

foobarian 3y ago

Would that sentence in itself be illegal? Or just if the promised action is performed?

jylam 3y ago
For a company to threaten to do this.

FredPret 3y ago

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, keeping more of your money = stronger property rights

oldandboring 3y ago
This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories and observations from the perspective of the employee, where US workers have no rights and would be rioting in the streets if we hadn't been brainwashed by corporate media. Here on earth, what you wrote is much closer to the truth. The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  > with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago

gonehome 3y ago

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

suryong 3y ago
There are places like HK and Singapore where firing is super easy, yet the software industry in those places still pales to USA and even to Europe in some cases
- lelanthran 3y ago
  The population is not comparable though. I guess that's why many people compare US to Europe, and not US to Sweden.
manuelmoreale 3y ago
> I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there Care to elaborate on why this is a bad thing? Also, software salaries are not all salaries and are probably not all that representative to the bigger picture.
- gonehome 3y ago
  Growth makes people rich, billion dollar companies create a lot of wealth and the US is a very rich country in part because of this. Some employees that capture a piece of that wealth funnel it back into more startups/growth (Silicon Valley) creating more jobs, more growth and more wealth (not to mention whatever the new startup is doing is usually creating a new thing people want too). Software salaries are extremely high, but software companies in the US pay a lot in non software roles too. On net you end up way in a way richer society that operates this way vs. one that incentivizes not operating this way. That doesn't mean there should be zero protections from abuse, but it's important to be cautious about the net effect of these sorts of regulations and how you can end up trapped in a worse local maximum because of them. In a society where you can take bigger risks, make bigger bets, you can get a lot bigger wins at scale. I think that's a good/important thing.

somenits 3y ago

I could respond with something equally condescending and sarcastic like “You Europeans should try not legislating yourselves into laughably low salaries,” but that would be rude and counterproductive.

ChoHag 3y ago
[dead]

systemvoltage 3y ago

Tbh, I prefer the American style (both as someone who has worked as a employee and someone who has employed). I also think this type of European mentality is the reason for its stagnation. Constant regulation that saps the energy out of amazing talent in Europe.

aroundtown 3y ago

> You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3 I wish we could fight for more rights. We are too spread out for protests to work. The politicians do everything they can to separate themselves from their electorate. And the average person doesn't have enough money to weather a week of no paychecks. Meanwhile half the populace gets angry at the thought of helping out anyone beneath them as they don't want them to get ahead. The worst is that you have a very vocal minority trying to constantly burn down the house so that they can be king of the burn pit.

stanjo 3y ago
This is very succinct. I was raised to value "a hard day's work," and while I still do, I realize as an adult that I should know who or what I'm working for.
wallmountedtv 3y ago
> I wish we could fight for more rights. We are too spread out for protests to work. One word, Unions. Its why Europe is doing so well with workers rights in STEM today compared to America.

quux 3y ago

Is that kind of language legal in states like CA and NY with WARN laws?

QuinnyPig 3y ago
This will depend upon how large your family is.
pixelatedindex 3y ago
WARN just states that you need to give advanced notice, and if you don’t then you have to give severance. Usually you have to sign a release to get your severance, and that includes being in good standing. I’m not sure if the employer can define what “good standing” is, or if it’s a legally binding term. All this to say, it’s probably legal.

anon291 3y ago

> You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3 What is the purpose of these 'rights'? As a software engineer in America, who's been laid off many times, I get (1) unemployment, (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared),(3) a free vacation for however long as I want, (4) lots of savings because I make so much more than my European counterparts, and (5) a great job market so I can rinse and repeat 1-5. Exactly what am I missing? Having spoken to many non-American devs... they're the ones being abused by being forced to work for sub-market wages for very little gain, and very little opportunity should they decide to branch out on their own.

aix1 3y ago
> been laid off many times How does one end up being laid off many times? Have you had a long career or do you specifically seek out high-risk high-reward jobs? Or just the roll of the dice?
- anon291 3y ago
  High-risk high-reward. Lots of startups. Some succeed. Some go under.
- boondoggle16 3y ago
  Not the op but, I've seen this for lots of reasons. Sometimes just a roll of the dice. Large companies tend to lay off more. If you've only worked in startups, it's very possible you may never be laid off. I've never been laid off despite working 20 years in industry. Working in banks, FAGMAN, etc, you are much more likely to be laid off. I guess you could consider that high-risk, but those jobs are low-risk overall imo, because they pay a lot more than startups.
SaintGhurka 3y ago
>> (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared) Could you explain this one? Do you mean via medicaid?

vore 3y ago

It makes no sense to put the blame on individuals like this. I am no fan of the lack of workers' rights in the US, but the holier-than-thou European smugness is really not appreciated, given how little recourse people have in the American system.

cassepipe 3y ago
I don't think the "holier-than-thou European smugness" is the reason why people lack workers' rights in the US. Most americans have never talked to a European person. But that certainly is the narrative some billionaire backed media is pushing. You only have the recourses you fought for. Having a culture where an organized workforce is not seen as rampant bolshevism would be a good start.
- vore 3y ago
  I didn't say European attitudes were responsible for workers' rights in the US being bad: that would be a hell of a cause. It's just extremely tiring when Europeans come in to flex their workers' rights super smugly like this <3 – yes, we know it's bad, we don't need someone to come rub it in every time.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  The smugness is believing that if you oppose European style regulations in anyway it is because you are brain washed by "billionaire backed media " and clearly have not seen the light as to how wonderful everything about the European style utopia of perfection we are missing in the backwaters of misery and abuse that is the United States

dudul 3y ago

You should fight for higher salaries sometime (sic) <3 Additionally, a company putting this language in their termination agreement doesn't make it legal.

cperciva 3y ago

If "social contacts made through your membership in the family" are covered by non-disclosure/non-solicitation, conceivably an ex-employee could be liable for damages? I agree that "withholding pay" is not the answer here, but if it went to court it might net out in the end.

Twirrim 3y ago

> You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues For all the other just absurd lack of rights employees have in the US, that at least is one that employees do have. Companies are legally _not allowed_ to stop you from discussing your salary with coworkers, or punish you in any way for you having done so.

TheRealPomax 3y ago
Actually, if you're not unionized companies are 100% allowed to fire you for whatever reason they like, such as talking about your salary, as long as the underlying reason does not run afoul of anti-discrimination law (which discussing salary won't) and they pay you full severance due to it being a "termination without cause".
- ddq 3y ago
  https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages# https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
  - jehb 3y ago
    "We're not firing you for discussing your wages, we're firing you for leaking proprietary individual labor budget information with unauthorized employees."
  - TheRealPomax 3y ago
    That's the best part! They don't have to fire you with a reason, at-will employment means they can just fire you and you're going to have to prove in court it could only have been because you were talking about your salary. Good luck! You just show up to the office, your fob doesn't work, and security walks out to inform you that you don't work here anymore and to expect an email from HR. (Will a good company do this? No. Could they if they wanted to, and totally get away with it? You bet!)
    - 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thumbuddy 3y ago

The US mostly has dystopian workers rights laws

xhevahir 3y ago

"You should fight for some more rights sometime" comes across as pretty condescending, regardless of the trailing emoticon. And unduly self- congratulatory, too--just as it's not within the realm of possibility for the average American worker to change the system they've inherited, it's unlikely that you yourself did a great deal to further the labor-rights regime of Western Europe.

phpisthebest 3y ago

Americans do not look to government to protect, coddle or provide for them. That is the big difference. I neither want nor desire government to be my parent