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Amazon to force 'voluntary resignation' on workers who don't relocate
- krthr 3y ago"This story is available exclusively to Insider subscribers. Become an Insider and start reading now."
- tchbnl 3y ago> It's Amazon's latest effort to encourage more in-person work. I don't think that's the real reason behind it.
- flappyeagle 3y agoWhat’s the real reason
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoControl
- hashtag-til 3y agoMiddle managers reason to justify their “work”
- nwalizer 3y agoReal estate
- red-iron-pine 3y agospecifically leases they can't get out of, and a commercial real estate bubble that's looking more and more precarious
- horns4lyfe 3y agoAre they also, going to give all their commuting employees electric cars, to align with their “climate pledge”? Doubt it, but I’m sure their executives will still lecture the rest of us about climate change.
- o1y32 3y agoIn other news I heard that the traffic in downtown Seattle is horrible after Amazon's return-to-office mandate. (Learned this second hand, please correct me if wrong)
- x86x87 3y agoTraffic indeed sucks. It depends on the day. Wed is the worst. Friday is the "best"
- sidlls 3y agoThis happened in the Bay Area, too. Prior to everyone adopting "RTO" (return to office) policies, my commute to the office regardless of the day was about 20 minutes (leaving from SF). After, on Tuesdays through Thursdays, it can easily be 30-40 minutes. And getting back home? Horrible. Before RTO I could leave the office at 4 or 5 and be back in my nice apartment within a half hour. Now it takes 10 fuckin minutes just to get off on Sixth Street after a 20-30 minute drive. And if there's a wreck on the 80 going to the east bay forget it--it's another 10-20 minutes just to get through the last 2 blocks of traffic.
- linuxftw 3y agoOrganize your local political machine to declare each flu season an emergency, and enforce lock downs again.
- red-iron-pine 3y agoI hate traffic but fuck off with more lockdowns
- 3y ago
- silveira 3y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20230724200726/https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-voluntary-resignation-employees-relocate-rto-2023-7 https://web.archive.org/web/20230724200726/https://www.busin...
- muttled 3y agoI can't see the article, but based on other articles, isn't this effectively constructive dismissal disguised as "accepting your resignation"?
- patmorgan23 3y agoYes
- reportgunner 3y ago> "collaborating and inventing is easier and more effective when we're in person." I read this as "when we're in prison" for some reason and couldn't believe someone would seriously say that.
- zarathustreal 3y agoMy favorite part of working there when this started being pushed was “source?” And the reply being “trust us bro” It’s so hilariously mismanaged..the execs are just useful idiots for the globalist agenda at this point
- piva00 3y ago> the execs are just useful idiots for the globalist agenda at this point What does "globalist agenda" mean?
- zarathustreal 3y agoThere’s a group of unelected elites that have created an global organization known as the World Economic Forum whose stated goal is to abolish private property and bring about a “Great Reset” [0] across the globe, consolidating power and eventually removing borders - this necessitates keeping certain structures of power in place and growing the gap between the “1%” and the other 99%. Eventually the goal seems to be to widen the gap to the point that the general public is so poor as to accept communism as an alternative to the poverty with the 1% as benevolent dictators [0] https://www.weforum.org/focus/the-great-reset https://www.weforum.org/focus/the-great-reset
- yodsanklai 3y agoHow a forced "voluntary resignation" is different from a being fired? is it some corporate euphemism or is it a thing?
- andsoitis 3y ago> How a forced "voluntary resignation" is different from a being fired? is it some corporate euphemism or is it a thing? It is different in that you have a choice. You can either adapt to the new policy (work conditions change) or you can leave. Totally up to you.
- tedajax 3y agoStill a firing, false choice etc...
- andsoitis 3y ago> Still a firing, false choice etc... Why do you view it as a false choice?
- tedajax 3y agoBecause saying "you can keep your job if you uproot your life" isn't a fair choice.
- andsoitis 3y ago> Because saying "you can keep your job if you uproot your life" isn't a fair choice. Surely an employer and employee are free to choose the employment terms and when the terms are deemed unacceptable to either, they can part ways? If you're a top notch Amazon engineer, for example, and you don't want to uproot your life it would be fairly easy to find another job that is more suitable, don't you think? All employment relationships have tradeoffs.
- 3y ago
- turnsout 3y agoCan you imagine being asked to move to a different city, go into the office, only to use Chime all day? The only people who will agree are the ones who sadly have no alternative.
- andsoitis 3y ago> The only people who will agree are the ones who sadly have no alternative. Many people will continue to choose to work at Amazon and specifically because they want to be around other colleagues a few days in the week. It is pretty presumptive and insulting to say to someone like that that they're in a "sad" position and they are "victims".
- anonym29 3y agoExhibit 1. A 'Hacker News' post by a user exhibiting the tell-tale emotionally-charged defense of their abuser, a classic hallmark of Stockholm Syndrome.
- andsoitis 3y ago> defense of their abuser I personally wouldn't choose to work for Amazon, for their remote work policy but also many other reasons. But I do believe it is insulting to say to someone who makes a clearly thought out tradeoff decision that it is where they want to work (e.g. someone who already lives in Seattle) that they are victims. Just because it doesn't suit your preferences, doesn't mean it doesn't suit others' perfectly well.
- grayhatter 3y agorule #2 of hacker news, never express an opinion different from the hive mind. I don't agree with the other commenters, that you're suffering from Stockholm. So I'm sorry your opinion is getting unfairly trashed the way it is. But like you're not wrong to enjoy working in the office, they're not wrong for wanting to work at home. And it's pretty clear Amazon is being abusive with their policies So not everyone is a victim sure, some of them are, and I think the expectation is that everyone will help stand up against the bully, even when the bully isn't targeting you.
- sydon 3y agoHow can they force their employees to resign, if they're going back on the terms they made before? I'm not familiar with American labour laws but this sounds illegal.
- jmclnx 3y agoI do not know how they can do this also, but it depends upon the State. I think "blue" states Amazon would not be able to do this, "red" states I think anything goes. Red State Gov. only cares about not giving poor people money.
- kube-system 3y agoGenerally speaking, employees in the US can be fired for almost any reason, as long as it isn’t for an illegal reason. While Amazon isn’t calling this “firing”, forcing someone to resign is essentially the same thing as far as the law is concerned.
- CoolGuySteve 3y ago"In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal. "
- tptacek 3y agoThat matters when employees have contracts promising termination only with cause. But these employees are likely all at-will; they can be fired for having the wrong hair cut.
- kube-system 3y agoConstructive dismissals aren’t necessarily illegal, they’re just not resignations. A “resignation” that is actually a constructive dismissal would usually qualify that employee for any legal benefits they’d receive as a fired employee, like unemployment.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- adastra22 3y agoThis is unrelated to “with Cause” conditions in employment contracts. This is about qualifying for unemployment and other benefits.
- danaris 3y agoConstructive dismissal isn't about whether it's legal or not to do it. It is, however, relevant to things like unemployment benefits—my wife, for instance, had her job changed on her just as the lockdowns were beginning, to something she had already made it very clear she was adamantly unwilling to do (and this was a complete change in title, responsibilities, department, the whole works), and after she had been instrumental in some reports that were pretty critical of the administration and (indirectly) supportive of unionization. She quit, and had no trouble (at least, no more than usual) getting the state to agree she deserved unemployment.
- nashashmi 3y agoIs that even legal? I'm guessing this is to avoid unemployment benefits and severance packages.
- adastra22 3y agoNope.
- Simulacra 3y agoIt's not about being in the office, innovation, or any of that BS. It's about control. The employer cannot control what they cannot see and monitor. In their minds, WFH employees are getting the job done but the risk to security, working for competitors simultaneously, or themselves for that matter on company time, and it instills this paranoia. Power has shifted to the employee and now the employer is working to take it back.
- linuxftw 3y agoIf only there were some way the employees could band together and negotiate equitable terms of employment.
- 40yearoldman 3y agoYes. Let’s do this thing that will likely lower pay and ensure shitty engineers keep jobs they can’t do because of a horribly short sighted view that RTO is not equitable. The issues with Unions is there appears to be no way for a company to hire non union workers. Once this happens you are basically the mob. And hold the company and other employees hostage to mob rule. Which is almost always not driven by logic. There are enough remote jobs. The idea that you want a specific job at a specific place to allow you to work remotely is insane. Nobody owes you shit. Either you like the terms and work there or you don’t and find another job.
- linuxftw 3y agoA CBA can cover things other than wages. Many states are also right to work, so nobody has to join the union in those states. How long do you think Amazon will last as a company if their engineering department went on strike? Probably about 15 minutes. Amazon workers could really get a fair slice of the pie of they organized.
- 40yearoldman 3y agoWhat is fair? Last I checked most Amazon engineers make 400k+.
- zarathustreal 3y agoWhat exactly is insane about wanting a software engineering job to allow you to work remotely? Obviously it’s entirely possible to do remotely, I’m curious what I’m missing that makes this insane?
- 40yearoldman 3y agoNothing insane. Its insane to expect a specific company to change its policies for your preferences. The way it is now some companies are remote others are not. They have different benefits. But what you want to do is strong arm everybody to do it your way. Some of us don’t want to work remote and don’t want to deal with those who do work remote. The way it is now allows me to work at companies that don’t offer remote and for you to work at companies that do offer remote. People demanding remote work by force with unions are basically the lady who wanes to apply Safeway and target coupons at Walmart.
- dh2022 3y agoThis is the Amazon I know! This is the Amazon I worked for 4 years. Every time I wonder if things changed one of these stories pops up. And reinforces my resolve to never work for this piece-of-** company unless I cannot make my next mortgage payment.
- disqard 3y agoI have never worked there, but this also squares with my outsider's impression of it. Thanks for confirming, though -- and I hope your mortgage payments never ever force you into that situation. Good luck!
- flappyeagle 3y agoBefore the flood of remote work die-hards start to flood this thread I want to implore you to spend that energy making better tools for remote collaborating. It’s been 3 years since we started social distancing and exactly nothing is different today vs then. We are still stuck in Notion, Zoom, and Slack. The unlucky ones are on MS Teams. Remote learning is terrible for most people, remote training is similar. Ad hoc collaboration is still high friction, dev environments are highly local (where’s figma for web dev?) Some of you are highly skilled and use these existing tools optimally but you don’t have the elevation to see that huge swaths of the workforce are struggling.
- unpwn 3y agoAs if RTO solves this at all. Lots of teams are distributed across the many hubs. Amazon is basically asking a large number of its employees to commute hours into the office, or move across the country, just to sit on chime/slack all day anyway.
- flappyeagle 3y agoIt does solve it at all. You might work with someone at a different hub, but most people don't most of the time.
- fullshark 3y agoThese companies were counting on a major economic downturn to scare employees back, and since that didn't happen are now going to use mandates and accept some increased attrition. It will work cause they all overhired like crazy, but maybe one in ten of the employees that quits as a result was truly essential and there will be some chaos internally as a result.
- imchillyb 3y ago"Voluntary Resignation" is a bold-faced-lie. These employees are being forced to relocate or BE FIRED.
- brigadier132 3y agoI remember all the emails from Amazon recruiters and they sold remote work hard.
- zarathustreal 3y agoThis was already happening, I was laid off from AWS back in May with the other 9,000 employees and the vast majority of people laid off were the fully-remote employees far enough from an office to have a valid reason to stay remote. This is just AWS getting more bold about it
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- meling 3y agoWhat does work contracts say about work location? Especially for those that were hired during the pandemic or in a remote role.
- archo 3y agohttps://archive.is/aJrbv https://archive.is/aJrbv
- sacnoradhq 3y agoNever work for Amazon. It doesn't matter how much money they promise you, because you can never get a good deal with a snake.
- squalo 3y agoAmazon doesn't want to lose those millions in tax incentives