12 ms·

Apple Vision Pro developer kit

169 points by Pulcinella 3y ago

madeofpalk 3y ago
There's not really many details here, and because I don't have a paid developer account I wasn't able to see what's on the other side of the Apply button, but are there any details on the terms? I'm curious about costs and other restrictions.
- Pulcinella 3y ago
  Terms & Conditions PDF: https://developer.apple.com/visionos/developer-kit/apply/static/policy/vision-pro-developer-kit-program-terms.pdf https://developer.apple.com/visionos/developer-kit/apply/sta...
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Thanks! Exactly what i was after Edit: No mention of costs in the T&Cs, but i did find it amusing that you must use it in a room with "solid doors, floors, walls and ceiling, and locks that can be engaged when the DK is in use"
    - linsomniac 3y ago
      So you're in a locked room... and injure yourself. And paramedics break in to help you. Violation of your T&C.
  - treesciencebot 3y ago
    Wow, this is pretty strict. If you are working from home, don't let your children or partner even see it. > You must ensure that unauthorized persons (including any family, friends, roommates or household employees) do not access, view, handle, or use the DK.
    - josho 3y ago
      I think this is just to catch the potential loophole of a roommate trying it out and blogging about their experience. If that happens then this clause means you are in contract breach.
    - dagmx 3y ago
      Pretty common for developer kits though. Its the same deal for previous developer kits, and consoles etc... Its an extension of the NDA to everyone around you, but since you can't bind them to an NDA, you say that the person who is bound to it is on the hook for transitive breaches of the NDA
    - ingenieros 3y ago
      They are treating this as a major game console sdk with all the NDA's that come with them.
    - gardenhedge 3y ago
      Huh? My children and partner never use my work stuff
    - cududa 3y ago
      It's unlikely to be seeded to indie devs working from home. Even massive companies are only going to get 1 or 2, and those are going to be locked in a room in the office.
      - 4ad 3y ago
        If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit, this is not true. Everybody got it, big and small.
        whywhywhywhy 3y ago
        > If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit It's not.
        cududa 3y ago
        This is going to be nothing like the Apple Silicon dev kit bro. They're expecting to be able to manufacture about 250,000-350,000 a year. They need those for Apple Stores, their own internal development, and of course customers. This is probably going to be more like 1,000 dev kits or less that go out.
  - dblitt 3y ago
    > Microsoft Word - Vision Pro Developer Kit Program Terms (FINAL).docx
- samstave 3y ago
  [flagged]
bogwog 3y ago
So to get this you need to apply by giving your app idea to a company notorious for stealing third party app ideas?
- paxys 3y ago
  Don't worry, they aren't going to steal your app idea. They will wait for it to get successful first.
  - delfinom 3y ago
    They also reserve the right to kick you out of the app store once they have their clone ready :D
    - nmjohn 3y ago
      Which apps have they done that to?
      - lostmsu 3y ago
        I remember something about phone usage trackers.
      - bangonkeyboard 3y ago
        FlickType: https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/apple-blocked-the-flicktype-watch-keyboard-then-announced-a-clone-of-it https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/apple-blocked-the-flickty...
      - Alifatisk 3y ago
        Remember Tiles?
- f6v 3y ago
  I don’t download any apps except maybe 3 or 4. What have they stolen?
  - 3y ago
martythemaniak 3y ago
There's one app I'd love to develop and use for this and it's for home renovations. I want to put this on, then walk around my house, have it create a real-time digital version of my place, and quickly remodel and renovate. Move existing furniture around, try new wall colours, shop for art, change the flooring, browse new furniture, etc. I don't want to spend my few free hours driving around flooring warehouses, looking at low-res pictures of furniture on websites like wayfair, etc, I just want to sit/stand comfortably at home and see how things will be at the end and customize it easily. This could theoretically be a business. If you're gonna be spending tens of thousands of dollars on a renovation, it'd make sense to rent a headset for a few weeks while you decide on everything. And since there's a strong purchase intent, you can sell real stuff (floors, tiles, furniture) through the app as well.
- alanwreath 3y ago
  I am assuming this is temporary but I believe there is a limitation for how far you can walk with the device on, which seems to limit this type of app (I can’t see this limitation persisting though )
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    I think that limitation is in VR mode where you are limited to a couple of meters. I don’t think AR has that limitation and this idea sounds like an AR experience.
- ingenieros 3y ago
  You won't be able to move more than 1 meter with this device. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... If a person moves more than about a meter, the system automatically makes all displayed content translucent to help them navigate their surroundings. When a fully immersive experience starts, the system defines an invisible zone that extends 1.5 meters from the initial position of the wearer’s head. If their head moves outside of that zone, the experience automatically stops and passthrough returns to help people avoid colliding with objects in their physical surroundings. The system can stop an immersive experience when people get too close to a physical object or when they move too quickly.
mgrandl 3y ago
Can I apply in Germany? My dev account recently expired, but I would renew it for a chance to get my hands on the dev kit…
- stirlo 3y ago
  I doubt someone who’s such a small developer that they recently let their dev account expire would be considered for this. They’ll be targeting big and established developers not people who decide to spend $99 on a dev account so they can access cool toys early.
  - mgrandl 3y ago
    Yeah for sure, I am just wondering whether they technically send them out in Germany, or whether this is US only.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Of course there are plenty of large German companies with the means to pay for a full developer kit and who are part of the Apple ecosystem in some way.
jjkeddo199 3y ago
I hope Apple releases a haptic feedback type of electrode addon+API to the Vision Pro, similarly to how rumble controllers work for gaming consoles. Imagine having an electrode that you could stick to the back of your neck to simulate onTouch/onPress events. Imagine being able to feel raindrops or gusts of wind in videogames. Immersion would be greatly increased from this feature alone! Apple would be foolish to omit something like this!
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  I went to a "4D theater" at Disney World once that simulated an alien xenomorph run amok on a space station. It'd get close and there'd be a puff of breath on your neck; it'd go dark, someone'd scream and you'd hear juicy noises accompanied by a misting of water. Pretty terrifying as a 13 year old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraTERRORestrial_Alien_Encounter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraTERRORestrial_Alien_Encou... > Air blown through soft textile tubes caused them to slap against the back of audience members' heads which, in conjunction with hot air blowers and olfactory emitters, created the most direct physical effect by suggesting the alien was licking audience members. That bit was mean.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
BigglesB 3y ago
Interesting that it actually calls out game developers right at the start despite everything else announced about the headset indicating that they couldn’t care less about gaming on VisionOS…
- MikeTheRocker 3y ago
  What about the system level integration of the Unity game engine?
  - Auracle 3y ago
    You can use Unity for things other than games. Not having controllers will be pretty limiting for gaming - some types of games will be fine, others definitely won’t be.
    - stirlo 3y ago
      I can see them having the ability to link a wireless controller for hardcore gaming like you can to Apple TV (and of course iOS devices). For everything else games could use hand tracking with a similar control scheme to Kinect and Wii attempted.
    - binarycrusader 3y ago
      In an interview John Carmack did with Lex Friedman recently, one of the things that Carmack pointed out is that VR games such as Beat Saber were a perfect fit for requiring a controller since it was natural to move and slice through something without significant physical feedback (at least as represented in the game). However, most VR games that require a controller for VR interactivity with "real world objects" tend to fare less well as they create a cognitive dissonance between the actions the player is taking and their perceived results. Anecdotally, for the few VR demos I've tried I agree.
      - fragmede 3y ago
        The Novint Falcon is a force-feedback controller that gives that feedback. Imagine holding a pencil for writing, and using it to scratch the surface of a sugar cube and feeling the indentations, and then also touching the sides of it to literally feel out how big it is.
Dig1t 3y ago
The largest question that they are not talking about is: will porn apps be allowed? Two very different futures depending on how that question is answered.
- mdgrech23 3y ago
  I mean couldn't they just not allow porn apps but allow you play video and what's on those videos is up to you?
  - VectorLock 3y ago
    You don't need a $3000+ AR headset to play videos.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Sure, but there will be enterprising developers looking to go far beyond that not very interactive approach. Hand tracking plus a full gaming PC plus 3D rendering has some... obvious possible end results.
- VectorLock 3y ago
  It sounds crass, but this really would be the make-or-break use-case just like it was for the VHS and DVD formats.
- herval 3y ago
  webxr is supported, so web-based apps will work as for official app store apps, I highly doubt it
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Porn apps are not allowed on any of their existing App Stores, so I'm not sure why this would be different.
  - Dig1t 3y ago
    Well, this platform is uniquely well suited for porn. It would be a massive system seller for them if it were allowed. It goes beyond just videos, interactive experiences are a new thing for porn and you need to actually be able to install an app to make them work. There is historical precedent for platform winners being the one that had the support of the porn industry. See: Blu-ray vs HD-DVD and others.
fidotron 3y ago
[removed]
- tagraves 3y ago
  Isn't this exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips when they were first being released? Plus, Apple announced they would do developer kit applications for the Vision Pro at the same time they announced the Vision Pro, so they couldn't have based this decision on the traction with third party developers.
  - WraithM 3y ago
    It is exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips. I had a developer kit Mac Mini with an M1 chip in it that I sent back to Apple when the developer period was over.
  - fidotron 3y ago
    [removed]
    - TillE 3y ago
      This is Apple, they have billions in cash on hand. There's very little pressure to make money on the first gen Vision Pro, not if they're committed to the product line long term. Anyway, it's been reported that manufacturing these has been a slow process, hence the slow rollout. They don't expect to sell a ton, not at $3500.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Yes. And the Intel switch before it.
kirykl 3y ago
In other words we built the solution, now were looking for your problems
baby 3y ago
Compare this with the Quest devkit: https://developer.oculus.com/quest/ https://developer.oculus.com/quest/
jbverschoor 3y ago
For Apple TV they did the same.. it could’ve been an awesome gaming platform, but the remote was the worst ever.
- jmu1234567890 3y ago
  But you can use console controllers with it?
hashtag-til 3y ago
Are HN excited with this gadget?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
darthrupert 3y ago
Apple Vision is a failure. It's not a matter of implementation. The whole concept is a failure. I wonder how much Apple's stock price relies on this fiasco...
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  How can it be a failure when it isn't out yet?

169 points by Pulcinella 3y ago

There's not really many details here, and because I don't have a paid developer account I wasn't able to see what's on the other side of the Apply button, but are there any details on the terms? I'm curious about costs and other restrictions.

Pulcinella 3y ago
Terms & Conditions PDF: https://developer.apple.com/visionos/developer-kit/apply/static/policy/vision-pro-developer-kit-program-terms.pdf https://developer.apple.com/visionos/developer-kit/apply/sta...
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Thanks! Exactly what i was after Edit: No mention of costs in the T&Cs, but i did find it amusing that you must use it in a room with "solid doors, floors, walls and ceiling, and locks that can be engaged when the DK is in use"
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    So you're in a locked room... and injure yourself. And paramedics break in to help you. Violation of your T&C.
- treesciencebot 3y ago
  Wow, this is pretty strict. If you are working from home, don't let your children or partner even see it. > You must ensure that unauthorized persons (including any family, friends, roommates or household employees) do not access, view, handle, or use the DK.
  - josho 3y ago
    I think this is just to catch the potential loophole of a roommate trying it out and blogging about their experience. If that happens then this clause means you are in contract breach.
  - dagmx 3y ago
    Pretty common for developer kits though. Its the same deal for previous developer kits, and consoles etc... Its an extension of the NDA to everyone around you, but since you can't bind them to an NDA, you say that the person who is bound to it is on the hook for transitive breaches of the NDA
  - ingenieros 3y ago
    They are treating this as a major game console sdk with all the NDA's that come with them.
  - gardenhedge 3y ago
    Huh? My children and partner never use my work stuff
  - cududa 3y ago
    It's unlikely to be seeded to indie devs working from home. Even massive companies are only going to get 1 or 2, and those are going to be locked in a room in the office.
    - 4ad 3y ago
      If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit, this is not true. Everybody got it, big and small.
      - whywhywhywhy 3y ago
        > If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit It's not.
      - cududa 3y ago
        This is going to be nothing like the Apple Silicon dev kit bro. They're expecting to be able to manufacture about 250,000-350,000 a year. They need those for Apple Stores, their own internal development, and of course customers. This is probably going to be more like 1,000 dev kits or less that go out.
- dblitt 3y ago
  > Microsoft Word - Vision Pro Developer Kit Program Terms (FINAL).docx
samstave 3y ago
[flagged]

bogwog 3y ago

So to get this you need to apply by giving your app idea to a company notorious for stealing third party app ideas?

paxys 3y ago
Don't worry, they aren't going to steal your app idea. They will wait for it to get successful first.
- delfinom 3y ago
  They also reserve the right to kick you out of the app store once they have their clone ready :D
  - nmjohn 3y ago
    Which apps have they done that to?
    - lostmsu 3y ago
      I remember something about phone usage trackers.
    - bangonkeyboard 3y ago
      FlickType: https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/apple-blocked-the-flicktype-watch-keyboard-then-announced-a-clone-of-it https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/apple-blocked-the-flickty...
    - Alifatisk 3y ago
      Remember Tiles?
f6v 3y ago
I don’t download any apps except maybe 3 or 4. What have they stolen?
- 3y ago

martythemaniak 3y ago

There's one app I'd love to develop and use for this and it's for home renovations. I want to put this on, then walk around my house, have it create a real-time digital version of my place, and quickly remodel and renovate. Move existing furniture around, try new wall colours, shop for art, change the flooring, browse new furniture, etc. I don't want to spend my few free hours driving around flooring warehouses, looking at low-res pictures of furniture on websites like wayfair, etc, I just want to sit/stand comfortably at home and see how things will be at the end and customize it easily. This could theoretically be a business. If you're gonna be spending tens of thousands of dollars on a renovation, it'd make sense to rent a headset for a few weeks while you decide on everything. And since there's a strong purchase intent, you can sell real stuff (floors, tiles, furniture) through the app as well.

alanwreath 3y ago
I am assuming this is temporary but I believe there is a limitation for how far you can walk with the device on, which seems to limit this type of app (I can’t see this limitation persisting though )
- Tagbert 3y ago
  I think that limitation is in VR mode where you are limited to a couple of meters. I don’t think AR has that limitation and this idea sounds like an AR experience.
ingenieros 3y ago
You won't be able to move more than 1 meter with this device. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/immersive-experiences https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... If a person moves more than about a meter, the system automatically makes all displayed content translucent to help them navigate their surroundings. When a fully immersive experience starts, the system defines an invisible zone that extends 1.5 meters from the initial position of the wearer’s head. If their head moves outside of that zone, the experience automatically stops and passthrough returns to help people avoid colliding with objects in their physical surroundings. The system can stop an immersive experience when people get too close to a physical object or when they move too quickly.

mgrandl 3y ago

Can I apply in Germany? My dev account recently expired, but I would renew it for a chance to get my hands on the dev kit…

stirlo 3y ago
I doubt someone who’s such a small developer that they recently let their dev account expire would be considered for this. They’ll be targeting big and established developers not people who decide to spend $99 on a dev account so they can access cool toys early.
- mgrandl 3y ago
  Yeah for sure, I am just wondering whether they technically send them out in Germany, or whether this is US only.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Of course there are plenty of large German companies with the means to pay for a full developer kit and who are part of the Apple ecosystem in some way.

jjkeddo199 3y ago

I hope Apple releases a haptic feedback type of electrode addon+API to the Vision Pro, similarly to how rumble controllers work for gaming consoles. Imagine having an electrode that you could stick to the back of your neck to simulate onTouch/onPress events. Imagine being able to feel raindrops or gusts of wind in videogames. Immersion would be greatly increased from this feature alone! Apple would be foolish to omit something like this!

ceejayoz 3y ago
I went to a "4D theater" at Disney World once that simulated an alien xenomorph run amok on a space station. It'd get close and there'd be a puff of breath on your neck; it'd go dark, someone'd scream and you'd hear juicy noises accompanied by a misting of water. Pretty terrifying as a 13 year old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraTERRORestrial_Alien_Encounter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraTERRORestrial_Alien_Encou... > Air blown through soft textile tubes caused them to slap against the back of audience members' heads which, in conjunction with hot air blowers and olfactory emitters, created the most direct physical effect by suggesting the alien was licking audience members. That bit was mean.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

BigglesB 3y ago

Interesting that it actually calls out game developers right at the start despite everything else announced about the headset indicating that they couldn’t care less about gaming on VisionOS…

MikeTheRocker 3y ago
What about the system level integration of the Unity game engine?
- Auracle 3y ago
  You can use Unity for things other than games. Not having controllers will be pretty limiting for gaming - some types of games will be fine, others definitely won’t be.
  - stirlo 3y ago
    I can see them having the ability to link a wireless controller for hardcore gaming like you can to Apple TV (and of course iOS devices). For everything else games could use hand tracking with a similar control scheme to Kinect and Wii attempted.
  - binarycrusader 3y ago
    In an interview John Carmack did with Lex Friedman recently, one of the things that Carmack pointed out is that VR games such as Beat Saber were a perfect fit for requiring a controller since it was natural to move and slice through something without significant physical feedback (at least as represented in the game). However, most VR games that require a controller for VR interactivity with "real world objects" tend to fare less well as they create a cognitive dissonance between the actions the player is taking and their perceived results. Anecdotally, for the few VR demos I've tried I agree.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      The Novint Falcon is a force-feedback controller that gives that feedback. Imagine holding a pencil for writing, and using it to scratch the surface of a sugar cube and feeling the indentations, and then also touching the sides of it to literally feel out how big it is.

Dig1t 3y ago

The largest question that they are not talking about is: will porn apps be allowed? Two very different futures depending on how that question is answered.

mdgrech23 3y ago
I mean couldn't they just not allow porn apps but allow you play video and what's on those videos is up to you?
- VectorLock 3y ago
  You don't need a $3000+ AR headset to play videos.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Sure, but there will be enterprising developers looking to go far beyond that not very interactive approach. Hand tracking plus a full gaming PC plus 3D rendering has some... obvious possible end results.
VectorLock 3y ago
It sounds crass, but this really would be the make-or-break use-case just like it was for the VHS and DVD formats.
herval 3y ago
webxr is supported, so web-based apps will work as for official app store apps, I highly doubt it
madeofpalk 3y ago
Porn apps are not allowed on any of their existing App Stores, so I'm not sure why this would be different.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  Well, this platform is uniquely well suited for porn. It would be a massive system seller for them if it were allowed. It goes beyond just videos, interactive experiences are a new thing for porn and you need to actually be able to install an app to make them work. There is historical precedent for platform winners being the one that had the support of the porn industry. See: Blu-ray vs HD-DVD and others.

fidotron 3y ago

[removed]

tagraves 3y ago
Isn't this exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips when they were first being released? Plus, Apple announced they would do developer kit applications for the Vision Pro at the same time they announced the Vision Pro, so they couldn't have based this decision on the traction with third party developers.
- WraithM 3y ago
  It is exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips. I had a developer kit Mac Mini with an M1 chip in it that I sent back to Apple when the developer period was over.
- fidotron 3y ago
  [removed]
  - TillE 3y ago
    This is Apple, they have billions in cash on hand. There's very little pressure to make money on the first gen Vision Pro, not if they're committed to the product line long term. Anyway, it's been reported that manufacturing these has been a slow process, hence the slow rollout. They don't expect to sell a ton, not at $3500.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Yes. And the Intel switch before it.

kirykl 3y ago

In other words we built the solution, now were looking for your problems

baby 3y ago

Compare this with the Quest devkit: https://developer.oculus.com/quest/ https://developer.oculus.com/quest/

jbverschoor 3y ago

For Apple TV they did the same.. it could’ve been an awesome gaming platform, but the remote was the worst ever.

jmu1234567890 3y ago
But you can use console controllers with it?

hashtag-til 3y ago

Are HN excited with this gadget?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

darthrupert 3y ago

Apple Vision is a failure. It's not a matter of implementation. The whole concept is a failure. I wonder how much Apple's stock price relies on this fiasco...

sebzim4500 3y ago
How can it be a failure when it isn't out yet?