6 ms·

Botulinum toxin: Bioweapon and magic drug (2010)

57 points by redbell 3y ago

sambeau 3y ago
And yet people continue to inject it into their faces, because wrinkles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- mdip 3y ago
  I saw the title and that was the first thing I thought of. I was sincerely hoping that "magic drug" wasn't referring to its use in cosmetic surgery[0]. As I'm not a member of anything medical-field related I was unaware that it had been used to treat "blepharospasm"[1]. Having gone through that to the point of actually seeking treatment, I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that option. At the point -- two days with no sleep -- I would have raided the drawers and given myself a shot. But, really, Botox is what most people think of when thinking "magic drug." I'm not sure that's the word I'd use. I'm a guy in my 40s with a pretty typical subset of people categorized as "I used to know them in High School". Literally in the period of 4 years about 25% of the women in my friends list were very clearly talked into getting Botox. One woman must be involved in some multi-level marketing scam related to Botox because she's frequently posting pictures of her face "post treatment" (and, I'm sorry, it's grizzly) I have to believe that some people have good results. But, no joke, I can pick out at least 10 women who have what I call "Botox Face". You notice it first in the lips -- "permanent semi-duck-face". Then they start talking -- large portions of their face don't move as expected. I had a co-worker who had it done, missed a few days of work, and when she returned I had assumed she suffered a stroke (thank God I didn't say anything). I had known she had Botox before (she had the lips already) so this was a second course of treatment. Despite how this sounds, this wasn't intended as an attack on folks who use Botox. I'm truly curious -- it seems like a lot of people have this done and the results are much worse than before for many of them. How many is anyone's guess ... in theory, it would be impossible to tell the difference between good Botox and "natural" but I can't think of another form of cosmetic surgery that has worse results. But considering how many people have bad results, why do so many people continue to get it done (including folks who previously had bad results!) [0] Ok, maybe just a little, because it's an "easy target". [1] Such a fun word -- one that people know if they've ever had their eye twitch consistently for a month (try sleeping that way).
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    "Having gone through that to the point of actually seeking treatment, I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that option." This is really surprising. If you Google 'blepharospasm treatment' and read a few articles, it's impossible not to come across Botox. And this isn't even recent... About 20 years ago, I did a project related to commercializing an innovative treatment of blepharospasm, and I recall contrasting this new treatment against the alternatives available at the time. Botox was one of them.
    - mdip 3y ago
      The biggest problem was being taken seriously. Everyone gets an eye-twitch from time-to-time. I made a special appointment with my PCP and was told "get more sleep", reduce stress and eat more things containing potassium... I have since found a new doctor. :) This was the early 00's but considering your project 20 years ago, that lands in at about the right time-frame.
  - poorselfimage 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - AbrahamParangi 3y ago
    I think people see the pictures and it looks like it might be an improvement but it's the motion of expressions that really makes it look weird/uncanny. A human face is always moving and it reads very wrong to see it move wrong.
    - atkailash 3y ago
      [dead]
  - jnovek 3y ago
    Fun fact: cosmetic Botox led directly to the discovery that it could be used to treat chronic migraine — some people who received it for cosmetic reasons noticed that it improved their headache symptoms and reported this to their doctors.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bluepod4 3y ago
  Digitalis/Digoxin/Lanoxin is a life-saving drug that is derived from the toxic Foxglove plant and can still poison someone in sufficient quantities according to Agatha Christie and the internet. (I guess lots of drugs can harm you in sufficient quantities lol.)
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Hey I grow foxglove in my garden. Lovely. Here's another one : CASTOR OIL PLANT. Pretty common. Has these beans. Take some of the beans. Soak em in water for a couple days and you have a fabulous poison : ricin. Excruciating tummy ache and bloody diarrhea. Then you die. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricinus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricinus
    - bluepod4 3y ago
      I wasn’t aware of the castor oil plant’s beans. My good old friend Calabar Bean came to visit last week though (Cain’s Jawbone reference).
myself248 3y ago
Seems like a good thread to ask (I brought this up a few weeks ago too): Why not use little bits of botox to prevent wisdom teeth from growing in the first place? It'd be a heck of a lot less invasive than removing them later.
- ddmf 3y ago
  I almost died due to sepsis after a wisdom tooth removal - interestingly the bacteria smelled like butterscotch, and my long term chronic paroxysmal hemicrania went away.
- mdip 3y ago
  That's a pretty fantastic idea! Of course, I'm far from an expert in anything related to medicine and I'm sure there's some reason this is dangerous/wouldn't work but I'd love to know why...
- thangngoc89 3y ago
  Wisdom teeth started growing at the age of 14-15. Are you willing to inject botox to your child?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Are you willing to inject botox to your child? You're framing this as if it's a mortal sin to administer medicine to children. Botox is well studied. If there is medical benefit, it would be fine.
    - nilespotter 3y ago
      Actually, he just asked a question.
- dan-robertson 3y ago
  How common is it to need wisdom teeth removed these days? Eg mine came up slowly but having them out wasn’t even something I discussed with my dentist
Glench 3y ago
Huh, didn't realize botox could be an effective bioweapon. I get regular botox injections to help with my headaches. It works really really well. Takes a couple weeks to kick in then lasts for a couple months before dissipating naturally.
- loa_in_ 3y ago
  What muscles does your treatment target? It's pretty surprising to me that it helps with headaches. I'm very curious, and very interested in getting rid of headaches of my own.
  - Glench 3y ago
    It varies per person, but for me, surprisingly, muscles in the occiput, temples, and around the trapezius. It was amazing for me to realize that tension in my shoulders, back, and neck could contribute to headaches, but it really is all interconnected.
    - bluepod4 3y ago
      Did you have other options for relieving that tension? Or was Botox the most effective?
      - Glench 3y ago
        Like the other commenter said on this page, I tried other stuff first — medications, acupuncture, and daily stretches/exercises for a year. The acupuncture and daily stretches were helpful and I still do them, but out of compassion for myself I wanted something that would work more deeply and immediately to provide relief. And there are no side effects of Botox (for me) which is amazing.
- hwillis 3y ago
  The Botox-like family are the most potent substances by weight, whether they're used for medication or poison. It's kind of crazy when you consider it. It takes thousands of botox doses to kill you. That's not dissimilar from most drugs- take a thousand advil and you'll certainly die. One unit dose of botox is 50 picograms. A lethal intramuscular dose is ~160 nanograms. A lethal inhaled dose is ~1 microgram. That's crazy. Inject any other chemical into the heart, brain, wherever you want- you will not be able to kill someone with a smaller dose of anything. The next most potent drugs (eg LSD, actually) create perceptible effects at fifty times the lethal dosage of botox. LSD is noticeable at <25 micrograms. Ricin is lethal at 1.6 milligrams. Fentanyl is lethal at 2 milligrams and dosed at 50 micrograms. Even covid the vaccines have 30+ micrograms of RNA that makes the larger amount of protein that trains your immune system. 50 picograms is only ~50,000 individual virus, about half of what is released by the infection of a single cell. Botox is within spitting distance of the lethality of a nuclear fission reaction. 160 nanograms of U-235 releases ~16 kJ, a bit under the energy in two AA batteries or ten 5.56 rifle shots. That's more than enough energy to cauterize a critical cardiac artery, or pop your skull... but it's less than an M80. Realistically (lol) if you pulled 160 nanograms of material from the center of our sun (or probably any star short of a neutron star), it's going to stop fusing immediately since it'll be too busy exploding. I've got no idea what the math on that is, but I'd be pretty surprised if it beat out botox for lethality. Which is crazy.
jnovek 3y ago
Botox for migraine absolutely changed my life. I went from almost continuous daily migraines to 2 or 3 4-hour migraines per week. Each treatment is progressively more effective, this change happened for me over the period of a year. It got me to a point where I could show up at the gym and, between those two things, I’ve been back to work full-time again.
- gehwartzen 3y ago
  I've been thinking about doing this for a while. I grind and clench my teeth quite a bit at night. How often did you have to get it done? Did your insurance cover it or is this something you can use HSA money for? What's your cost per treatment? Also does it in any way effect your chewing strength or ability to make the full range of facial expressions? Many Thanks!
  - jnovek 3y ago
    Insurance covers it, but I had to try (I think) four other treatment modalities and show that they weren’t sufficient first. My neurologist is really tuned into the insurance process because she’s seen Botox help so many people and we were able to eliminate four modalities in about a year. If you aren’t lucky enough to have a doctor willing to play the insurance game, you might have to do your own legwork with insurance but, at least in my experience, it’s worth it. Edit: forgot to mention — I’m lucky enough not to deal with bruxism so I don’t get injections low enough in my face to know if it affects jaw strength. Mine are mainly in my scalp, shoulders and forehead. It does reduce the expressiveness of my forehead a little bit, but I consider it a fair trade considering the alternative.
    - ianai 3y ago
      I have the impression from my neurologist that insurance companies are now steering patients towards the prophylactic cgrp blockers like Ajovy. It’s got to be much cheaper to give a patient a self injectable than pay a neurologist for dozens of injections. Personally I’d much rather not risk the headaches coming back to make a change.
- 3y ago
Xenoamorphous 3y ago
I think it was in a Michael Crichton book that I read that something like a couple of pounds of this toxin would be enough to kill all mankind and that stuck with me. No idea if it’s accurate though. Also I guess in terms of toxins a couple of pounds is a lot.
- justusthane 3y ago
  On the contrary, the article says it would only take 39.2 grams to kill every human on the planet. Wild.
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  I think it has the lowest known LD50. The amount they must dilute it by would probably make homeopaths blush.
1-6 3y ago
Botox may also be a helpful tool against seizures: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28475998/#:~:text=After%20botulinum%20toxin%20(BoT)%20injection,again%20efficacious%20in%20one%20case https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28475998/#:~:text=After%20bo....
tristor 3y ago
I have severe bruxism and Botox treatments of my masseter muscle has made a huge difference. It’s something I was very reluctant about initially but I’m glad I ultimately tried it.
pfisherman 3y ago
Relevant (and entertaining) “In the Pipeline” article. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/there-s-toxicity-and-there-s-toxicity https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/there-s-toxicity-a...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

57 points by redbell 3y ago

sambeau 3y ago

And yet people continue to inject it into their faces, because wrinkles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

mdip 3y ago
I saw the title and that was the first thing I thought of. I was sincerely hoping that "magic drug" wasn't referring to its use in cosmetic surgery[0]. As I'm not a member of anything medical-field related I was unaware that it had been used to treat "blepharospasm"[1]. Having gone through that to the point of actually seeking treatment, I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that option. At the point -- two days with no sleep -- I would have raided the drawers and given myself a shot. But, really, Botox is what most people think of when thinking "magic drug." I'm not sure that's the word I'd use. I'm a guy in my 40s with a pretty typical subset of people categorized as "I used to know them in High School". Literally in the period of 4 years about 25% of the women in my friends list were very clearly talked into getting Botox. One woman must be involved in some multi-level marketing scam related to Botox because she's frequently posting pictures of her face "post treatment" (and, I'm sorry, it's grizzly) I have to believe that some people have good results. But, no joke, I can pick out at least 10 women who have what I call "Botox Face". You notice it first in the lips -- "permanent semi-duck-face". Then they start talking -- large portions of their face don't move as expected. I had a co-worker who had it done, missed a few days of work, and when she returned I had assumed she suffered a stroke (thank God I didn't say anything). I had known she had Botox before (she had the lips already) so this was a second course of treatment. Despite how this sounds, this wasn't intended as an attack on folks who use Botox. I'm truly curious -- it seems like a lot of people have this done and the results are much worse than before for many of them. How many is anyone's guess ... in theory, it would be impossible to tell the difference between good Botox and "natural" but I can't think of another form of cosmetic surgery that has worse results. But considering how many people have bad results, why do so many people continue to get it done (including folks who previously had bad results!) [0] Ok, maybe just a little, because it's an "easy target". [1] Such a fun word -- one that people know if they've ever had their eye twitch consistently for a month (try sleeping that way).
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  "Having gone through that to the point of actually seeking treatment, I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that option." This is really surprising. If you Google 'blepharospasm treatment' and read a few articles, it's impossible not to come across Botox. And this isn't even recent... About 20 years ago, I did a project related to commercializing an innovative treatment of blepharospasm, and I recall contrasting this new treatment against the alternatives available at the time. Botox was one of them.
  - mdip 3y ago
    The biggest problem was being taken seriously. Everyone gets an eye-twitch from time-to-time. I made a special appointment with my PCP and was told "get more sleep", reduce stress and eat more things containing potassium... I have since found a new doctor. :) This was the early 00's but considering your project 20 years ago, that lands in at about the right time-frame.
- poorselfimage 3y ago
  [flagged]
- AbrahamParangi 3y ago
  I think people see the pictures and it looks like it might be an improvement but it's the motion of expressions that really makes it look weird/uncanny. A human face is always moving and it reads very wrong to see it move wrong.
  - atkailash 3y ago
    [dead]
- jnovek 3y ago
  Fun fact: cosmetic Botox led directly to the discovery that it could be used to treat chronic migraine — some people who received it for cosmetic reasons noticed that it improved their headache symptoms and reported this to their doctors.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bluepod4 3y ago
Digitalis/Digoxin/Lanoxin is a life-saving drug that is derived from the toxic Foxglove plant and can still poison someone in sufficient quantities according to Agatha Christie and the internet. (I guess lots of drugs can harm you in sufficient quantities lol.)
- swayvil 3y ago
  Hey I grow foxglove in my garden. Lovely. Here's another one : CASTOR OIL PLANT. Pretty common. Has these beans. Take some of the beans. Soak em in water for a couple days and you have a fabulous poison : ricin. Excruciating tummy ache and bloody diarrhea. Then you die. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricinus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricinus
  - bluepod4 3y ago
    I wasn’t aware of the castor oil plant’s beans. My good old friend Calabar Bean came to visit last week though (Cain’s Jawbone reference).

myself248 3y ago

Seems like a good thread to ask (I brought this up a few weeks ago too): Why not use little bits of botox to prevent wisdom teeth from growing in the first place? It'd be a heck of a lot less invasive than removing them later.

ddmf 3y ago
I almost died due to sepsis after a wisdom tooth removal - interestingly the bacteria smelled like butterscotch, and my long term chronic paroxysmal hemicrania went away.
mdip 3y ago
That's a pretty fantastic idea! Of course, I'm far from an expert in anything related to medicine and I'm sure there's some reason this is dangerous/wouldn't work but I'd love to know why...
thangngoc89 3y ago
Wisdom teeth started growing at the age of 14-15. Are you willing to inject botox to your child?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Are you willing to inject botox to your child? You're framing this as if it's a mortal sin to administer medicine to children. Botox is well studied. If there is medical benefit, it would be fine.
  - nilespotter 3y ago
    Actually, he just asked a question.
dan-robertson 3y ago
How common is it to need wisdom teeth removed these days? Eg mine came up slowly but having them out wasn’t even something I discussed with my dentist

Glench 3y ago

Huh, didn't realize botox could be an effective bioweapon. I get regular botox injections to help with my headaches. It works really really well. Takes a couple weeks to kick in then lasts for a couple months before dissipating naturally.

loa_in_ 3y ago
What muscles does your treatment target? It's pretty surprising to me that it helps with headaches. I'm very curious, and very interested in getting rid of headaches of my own.
- Glench 3y ago
  It varies per person, but for me, surprisingly, muscles in the occiput, temples, and around the trapezius. It was amazing for me to realize that tension in my shoulders, back, and neck could contribute to headaches, but it really is all interconnected.
  - bluepod4 3y ago
    Did you have other options for relieving that tension? Or was Botox the most effective?
    - Glench 3y ago
      Like the other commenter said on this page, I tried other stuff first — medications, acupuncture, and daily stretches/exercises for a year. The acupuncture and daily stretches were helpful and I still do them, but out of compassion for myself I wanted something that would work more deeply and immediately to provide relief. And there are no side effects of Botox (for me) which is amazing.
hwillis 3y ago
The Botox-like family are the most potent substances by weight, whether they're used for medication or poison. It's kind of crazy when you consider it. It takes thousands of botox doses to kill you. That's not dissimilar from most drugs- take a thousand advil and you'll certainly die. One unit dose of botox is 50 picograms. A lethal intramuscular dose is ~160 nanograms. A lethal inhaled dose is ~1 microgram. That's crazy. Inject any other chemical into the heart, brain, wherever you want- you will not be able to kill someone with a smaller dose of anything. The next most potent drugs (eg LSD, actually) create perceptible effects at fifty times the lethal dosage of botox. LSD is noticeable at <25 micrograms. Ricin is lethal at 1.6 milligrams. Fentanyl is lethal at 2 milligrams and dosed at 50 micrograms. Even covid the vaccines have 30+ micrograms of RNA that makes the larger amount of protein that trains your immune system. 50 picograms is only ~50,000 individual virus, about half of what is released by the infection of a single cell. Botox is within spitting distance of the lethality of a nuclear fission reaction. 160 nanograms of U-235 releases ~16 kJ, a bit under the energy in two AA batteries or ten 5.56 rifle shots. That's more than enough energy to cauterize a critical cardiac artery, or pop your skull... but it's less than an M80. Realistically (lol) if you pulled 160 nanograms of material from the center of our sun (or probably any star short of a neutron star), it's going to stop fusing immediately since it'll be too busy exploding. I've got no idea what the math on that is, but I'd be pretty surprised if it beat out botox for lethality. Which is crazy.

jnovek 3y ago

Botox for migraine absolutely changed my life. I went from almost continuous daily migraines to 2 or 3 4-hour migraines per week. Each treatment is progressively more effective, this change happened for me over the period of a year. It got me to a point where I could show up at the gym and, between those two things, I’ve been back to work full-time again.

gehwartzen 3y ago
I've been thinking about doing this for a while. I grind and clench my teeth quite a bit at night. How often did you have to get it done? Did your insurance cover it or is this something you can use HSA money for? What's your cost per treatment? Also does it in any way effect your chewing strength or ability to make the full range of facial expressions? Many Thanks!
- jnovek 3y ago
  Insurance covers it, but I had to try (I think) four other treatment modalities and show that they weren’t sufficient first. My neurologist is really tuned into the insurance process because she’s seen Botox help so many people and we were able to eliminate four modalities in about a year. If you aren’t lucky enough to have a doctor willing to play the insurance game, you might have to do your own legwork with insurance but, at least in my experience, it’s worth it. Edit: forgot to mention — I’m lucky enough not to deal with bruxism so I don’t get injections low enough in my face to know if it affects jaw strength. Mine are mainly in my scalp, shoulders and forehead. It does reduce the expressiveness of my forehead a little bit, but I consider it a fair trade considering the alternative.
  - ianai 3y ago
    I have the impression from my neurologist that insurance companies are now steering patients towards the prophylactic cgrp blockers like Ajovy. It’s got to be much cheaper to give a patient a self injectable than pay a neurologist for dozens of injections. Personally I’d much rather not risk the headaches coming back to make a change.
3y ago

Xenoamorphous 3y ago

I think it was in a Michael Crichton book that I read that something like a couple of pounds of this toxin would be enough to kill all mankind and that stuck with me. No idea if it’s accurate though. Also I guess in terms of toxins a couple of pounds is a lot.

justusthane 3y ago
On the contrary, the article says it would only take 39.2 grams to kill every human on the planet. Wild.
bigmattystyles 3y ago
I think it has the lowest known LD50. The amount they must dilute it by would probably make homeopaths blush.

1-6 3y ago

Botox may also be a helpful tool against seizures: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28475998/#:~:text=After%20botulinum%20toxin%20(BoT)%20injection,again%20efficacious%20in%20one%20case https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28475998/#:~:text=After%20bo....

tristor 3y ago

I have severe bruxism and Botox treatments of my masseter muscle has made a huge difference. It’s something I was very reluctant about initially but I’m glad I ultimately tried it.

pfisherman 3y ago

Relevant (and entertaining) “In the Pipeline” article. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/there-s-toxicity-and-there-s-toxicity https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/there-s-toxicity-a...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]