8 ms·

Apple Says It Will Exit the UK Market If Government Passes Online Safety Bill

72 points by intunderflow 3y ago

brucethemoose2 3y ago
The headline is misleading. e2e encryption features, like facetime, imessage and some chat AppStore apps, would be pulled from the UK. IDK where TechDirt got "exit the UK market" from.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  They got it from the same playbook that they think will keep people engaged and drive traffic.
- willio58 3y ago
  Wow yeah kind of a far cry from the headline..
- ponderings 3y ago
  apple will declare war on the uk
  - remarkEon 3y ago
    With $250B in cash (or whatever it is right now), they could raise a hell of an Army.
    - unsupp0rted 3y ago
      Could they? Realistically, how powerful of a mercenary army would $250B buy, going from 0 to deployable? Supply lines are expensive. Feeding an army is hard. Would an Apple army be competitive in a war lasting months, not to mention years, with a mid-level average country’s army?
      - photonbeam 3y ago
        The uk military budget is something like US$55b/y So presumably something comparable for a few years of conflict, not that I think this is even remotely probable
        xyse53 3y ago
        That's on top of what they already have.
        Detrytus 3y ago
        That's a PEACETIME budget. If UK feels threatened they will make military spending a priority, and in such case they can easily throw like $500b on weapons. And they have an advantage, because they have a lot of military production happening right there in UK, so they can just nationalize the factories and have the weapons delivered at manufacturing cost, without any markup. So far there's no way an international corporation could win a war against a country. Give it a hundred more years though, and things might change.
        angus-prune 3y ago
        The East India Company would like a word.
        verve_rat 3y ago
        Win a war against the UK != win a war against any country.
        ponderings 3y ago
        To share my ignorant thoughts on the topic.... It would be an entirely unconventional war.(I imagine) I suppose it would have to start with an extensive legal investigation to map out what kind of public attack apple can get away with without jeopardizing their revenue/breaking to many laws in other countries. A secret attack would be more of a finance question (I imagine) but if that can be arranged they can field their own political options or support opposing parties. Farages brexit project only cost a few million.[0] It was poorly hidden and not punished. (I imagine) Apple could quite legitimately bid on things related to their business model (that they can always modify) and drive up prices, render more than just apple products unavailable and hinder technology companies in the UK sufficiently to make them leave. As long as the effort enjoys plausible deniability anything goes. After project brexit an attempt to disrupt UK/US relations could also be quite effective (I imagine) The long game (I imagine) could be to dramatically lower prices of apple products in the UK so that everyone buys them. Then argue the encryption thing doesn't sit well with their agenda and switch everything off and on again and off again. Perhaps something more subtitle, no IOS updates as the update has encryption and no apps for the current OS. They can do that as often as they like. Investment funds are happy to kill everyone in whatever way possible as long as it makes money.[1](no imagination required) It's a rather fascinating topic that I should study further (without imagining so much) [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-seventh-on-list-of-meps-outside-earnings https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-s... [1] - https://www.investorsagainstgenocide.org/about/resources/voting-results-for-genocide-free-investing-shareholder-proposals/ https://www.investorsagainstgenocide.org/about/resources/vot...
    - prepend 3y ago
      There’s a fun book called Jennifer Government by Max Barry about corporations fielding their own armies and directly controlling countries.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      The way its portrayed, Apple constantly comes out like the most powerless $trillion company. Its always, oh the government is gonna veto this or make Apple do that. How is that never the case when it comes to money or taxes or labor issues or any number of other things they have remarkable control over, but whenever its something good that helps or is valuable to the regular individual they are so impotent or the result is so arbitrarily contingent? The government is making us take this off the App Store and since we're the only app store, unfortunately this will be the end of whatever for you. Gosh, we're so sad the government will make us do this and we have like zero access to courts or lobbying agencies or god forbid we engage in any dirty tricks like we do everywhere else like everyone else.
skymer 3y ago
If the law makes apple ban 3d party e2e encrypted apps along with its own, UK sales of iphones will be a good test of society's current values.
ksec 3y ago
It is funny as Apple no longer use Fundamental Human Rights as reason or excuses. I guess they do constantly read some press / Twitter and forum to adjust their PR strategy.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Apple no longer use Fundamental Human Rights as reason The term has been driven to overinclusive uselessness. When every personal grievance is seriously launched as an attack on human rights, the term loses meaning.
  - spanktheuser 3y ago
    > When every personal grievance is seriously launched… That is quite a statement that I think you need to back up. How about you link to 3 examples. Remember, they have to be personal, and they have to be serious.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    That isn't true whatsoever. I large number of people who enjoy the status quo would like us to think so, however.
hilbert42 3y ago
Perhaps the UK has to descend further towards third-world country status before its citizens will be prepared to stand up and take charge of their governance instead of allowing small groups of narrow-minded do-gooder elites to do so. Presumably—if they bother to so act at all—that will be after just about every high-tech company has left for more fertile grounds.
- DropInIn 3y ago
  > do-gooder Hmm..... so we don't want people in governance positions trying governance to do good? Is that your position? Because if not I question why you included that term....
- rcme 3y ago
  > instead of allowing small groups of narrow-minded do-gooder elites to do so. Isn’t that the entire history of UK governance? They literally have something called the House of Lords.
  - jlokier 3y ago
    The House of Lords are usually the sane and reasonable ones that block abusive legislation created by those in the House of Commons. The latter are far more political, and almost all the scandals, drama, grifting, public lies and human rights abusive legislation originates in the Commons. It's a strange thing that the "lords" protect individual freedom and democracy of the common person more than the "commons" but that's how it often appears to be. Case in point: The legislation this article is about. If it passes the Commons it is quite likely to be bounced back by the Lords following a more human rights focused debate there.
    - nly 3y ago
      The House of Lords can't block legislation though, they can only amend it and send it back, and only a limited number of times...and the amendments they propose are only advisory and can be ignored.
  - 3y ago
jonathantf2 3y ago
While I’m happy that Apple are standing their ground I don’t know of a single person who uses FaceTime or iMessage over WhatsApp here
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Meta will almost certainly pull out rather than break encryption. The only important part of the UK market for them is the advertising agencies.
- IndySun 3y ago
  Where is 'here'? I know several people 'here' that admirably use iMessage exclusively over the equally less private WhatsApp.
- prepend 3y ago
  So you don’t know many people, thanks for noting it but not sure how relevant it is to the conversation. It seems a third of users use iMessage [0]. You not knowing one of 20 million people in your country seems more like a curiosity of why your social circle is so similar. [0] https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1328650/imessage-messengers-brand-profile-in-the-uk https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1328650/imessage-messenge...
  - maest 3y ago
    Your comment is needlessly snarky and patronising. Your link would have been sufficient.
    - prepend 3y ago
      Perhaps I was too snarky, but I also wanted to help change a perspective that it’s not just important what I experience but to check that against others. I struggle with thinking “I don’t see it, so it must be so” and wish others would point this out more for me. Also, I kind of like snarky as it is closer to authenticity, I think, than always saying “good job, did you think of it this way…”
- 3y ago
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] Tons of conversation about this a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297
- archo 3y ago
  -- Related -- Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption : https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remove-security-law/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remov... HN Discussion: (784-comments - 2023-07-20) : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297
lnxg33k1 3y ago
Domain matches content I guess
louwhopley 3y ago
If this passes and non-App Store app downloads take off, then the biggest hit could be taken by Apple’s App Store revenues… and the UK gov will loose even more control when people start downloading properly encrypted software off platform from the open internet.
bvoq 3y ago
Good. They don’t need tech anyway.

72 points by intunderflow 3y ago

The headline is misleading. e2e encryption features, like facetime, imessage and some chat AppStore apps, would be pulled from the UK. IDK where TechDirt got "exit the UK market" from.

gumballindie 3y ago
They got it from the same playbook that they think will keep people engaged and drive traffic.
willio58 3y ago
Wow yeah kind of a far cry from the headline..
ponderings 3y ago
apple will declare war on the uk
- remarkEon 3y ago
  With $250B in cash (or whatever it is right now), they could raise a hell of an Army.
  - unsupp0rted 3y ago
    Could they? Realistically, how powerful of a mercenary army would $250B buy, going from 0 to deployable? Supply lines are expensive. Feeding an army is hard. Would an Apple army be competitive in a war lasting months, not to mention years, with a mid-level average country’s army?
    - photonbeam 3y ago
      The uk military budget is something like US$55b/y So presumably something comparable for a few years of conflict, not that I think this is even remotely probable
      - xyse53 3y ago
        That's on top of what they already have.
      - Detrytus 3y ago
        That's a PEACETIME budget. If UK feels threatened they will make military spending a priority, and in such case they can easily throw like $500b on weapons. And they have an advantage, because they have a lot of military production happening right there in UK, so they can just nationalize the factories and have the weapons delivered at manufacturing cost, without any markup. So far there's no way an international corporation could win a war against a country. Give it a hundred more years though, and things might change.
        angus-prune 3y ago
        The East India Company would like a word.
        verve_rat 3y ago
        Win a war against the UK != win a war against any country.
        ponderings 3y ago
        To share my ignorant thoughts on the topic.... It would be an entirely unconventional war.(I imagine) I suppose it would have to start with an extensive legal investigation to map out what kind of public attack apple can get away with without jeopardizing their revenue/breaking to many laws in other countries. A secret attack would be more of a finance question (I imagine) but if that can be arranged they can field their own political options or support opposing parties. Farages brexit project only cost a few million.[0] It was poorly hidden and not punished. (I imagine) Apple could quite legitimately bid on things related to their business model (that they can always modify) and drive up prices, render more than just apple products unavailable and hinder technology companies in the UK sufficiently to make them leave. As long as the effort enjoys plausible deniability anything goes. After project brexit an attempt to disrupt UK/US relations could also be quite effective (I imagine) The long game (I imagine) could be to dramatically lower prices of apple products in the UK so that everyone buys them. Then argue the encryption thing doesn't sit well with their agenda and switch everything off and on again and off again. Perhaps something more subtitle, no IOS updates as the update has encryption and no apps for the current OS. They can do that as often as they like. Investment funds are happy to kill everyone in whatever way possible as long as it makes money.[1](no imagination required) It's a rather fascinating topic that I should study further (without imagining so much) [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-seventh-on-list-of-meps-outside-earnings https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-s... [1] - https://www.investorsagainstgenocide.org/about/resources/voting-results-for-genocide-free-investing-shareholder-proposals/ https://www.investorsagainstgenocide.org/about/resources/vot...
  - prepend 3y ago
    There’s a fun book called Jennifer Government by Max Barry about corporations fielding their own armies and directly controlling countries.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    The way its portrayed, Apple constantly comes out like the most powerless $trillion company. Its always, oh the government is gonna veto this or make Apple do that. How is that never the case when it comes to money or taxes or labor issues or any number of other things they have remarkable control over, but whenever its something good that helps or is valuable to the regular individual they are so impotent or the result is so arbitrarily contingent? The government is making us take this off the App Store and since we're the only app store, unfortunately this will be the end of whatever for you. Gosh, we're so sad the government will make us do this and we have like zero access to courts or lobbying agencies or god forbid we engage in any dirty tricks like we do everywhere else like everyone else.

skymer 3y ago

If the law makes apple ban 3d party e2e encrypted apps along with its own, UK sales of iphones will be a good test of society's current values.

ksec 3y ago

It is funny as Apple no longer use Fundamental Human Rights as reason or excuses. I guess they do constantly read some press / Twitter and forum to adjust their PR strategy.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Apple no longer use Fundamental Human Rights as reason The term has been driven to overinclusive uselessness. When every personal grievance is seriously launched as an attack on human rights, the term loses meaning.
- spanktheuser 3y ago
  > When every personal grievance is seriously launched… That is quite a statement that I think you need to back up. How about you link to 3 examples. Remember, they have to be personal, and they have to be serious.
- flangola7 3y ago
  That isn't true whatsoever. I large number of people who enjoy the status quo would like us to think so, however.

hilbert42 3y ago

Perhaps the UK has to descend further towards third-world country status before its citizens will be prepared to stand up and take charge of their governance instead of allowing small groups of narrow-minded do-gooder elites to do so. Presumably—if they bother to so act at all—that will be after just about every high-tech company has left for more fertile grounds.

DropInIn 3y ago
> do-gooder Hmm..... so we don't want people in governance positions trying governance to do good? Is that your position? Because if not I question why you included that term....
rcme 3y ago
> instead of allowing small groups of narrow-minded do-gooder elites to do so. Isn’t that the entire history of UK governance? They literally have something called the House of Lords.
- jlokier 3y ago
  The House of Lords are usually the sane and reasonable ones that block abusive legislation created by those in the House of Commons. The latter are far more political, and almost all the scandals, drama, grifting, public lies and human rights abusive legislation originates in the Commons. It's a strange thing that the "lords" protect individual freedom and democracy of the common person more than the "commons" but that's how it often appears to be. Case in point: The legislation this article is about. If it passes the Commons it is quite likely to be bounced back by the Lords following a more human rights focused debate there.
  - nly 3y ago
    The House of Lords can't block legislation though, they can only amend it and send it back, and only a limited number of times...and the amendments they propose are only advisory and can be ignored.
- 3y ago

jonathantf2 3y ago

While I’m happy that Apple are standing their ground I don’t know of a single person who uses FaceTime or iMessage over WhatsApp here

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
Meta will almost certainly pull out rather than break encryption. The only important part of the UK market for them is the advertising agencies.
IndySun 3y ago
Where is 'here'? I know several people 'here' that admirably use iMessage exclusively over the equally less private WhatsApp.
prepend 3y ago
So you don’t know many people, thanks for noting it but not sure how relevant it is to the conversation. It seems a third of users use iMessage [0]. You not knowing one of 20 million people in your country seems more like a curiosity of why your social circle is so similar. [0] https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1328650/imessage-messengers-brand-profile-in-the-uk https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1328650/imessage-messenge...
- maest 3y ago
  Your comment is needlessly snarky and patronising. Your link would have been sufficient.
  - prepend 3y ago
    Perhaps I was too snarky, but I also wanted to help change a perspective that it’s not just important what I experience but to check that against others. I struggle with thinking “I don’t see it, so it must be so” and wish others would point this out more for me. Also, I kind of like snarky as it is closer to authenticity, I think, than always saying “good job, did you think of it this way…”
3y ago

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] Tons of conversation about this a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297

archo 3y ago
-- Related -- Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption : https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remove-security-law/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remov... HN Discussion: (784-comments - 2023-07-20) : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36800297

lnxg33k1 3y ago

Domain matches content I guess

louwhopley 3y ago

If this passes and non-App Store app downloads take off, then the biggest hit could be taken by Apple’s App Store revenues… and the UK gov will loose even more control when people start downloading properly encrypted software off platform from the open internet.

bvoq 3y ago

Good. They don’t need tech anyway.