3 ms·

IMHO the west as a whole will need to re-consider its metrics. Europe, not only Eurozone, lag in absolute numbers of economic activity but the life quality is

by mrtksn 3y ago

IMHO the west as a whole will need to re-consider its metrics. Europe, not only Eurozone, lag in absolute numbers of economic activity but the life quality is not that different from the US and arguably it’s even better depending on what is important for you. An appendicitis generates more economic activity in the US but Europeans die les from it. On the other hand, Europe does lag on post soviet era tech(that’s anything seen mainstream adoption since 90’s) and the contenders for US are China, Taiwan an India. China, Taiwan, and India might be at the frontlines on some tech but their societies are facing political and demographic problems in much different ways than the west. I’m afraid our world is poised for a dramatic change as every country is screwed in a different way and people see no easy way out.

Aperocky 3y ago
The existing metrics are already the fairest. i.e. Life expectancy, work length, income, spending, etc. Metrics has to be objectively measurable, otherwise they would have a huge subjective bias. Some people can be happy and enjoy life in almost any circumstances - but that is much harder to measure across societies and you'll end up with scams like "happiest country on Earth".
legitster 3y ago
I was recently talking with a friend who moved to Germany and loved it. But now that he is raising a family he is planning on moving back to the states. There's definitely a quantity/quality difference. Things in Germany are just nicer. But at a certain point, the "niceness" of things doesn't matter to you much anymore when you are trying to raise a family of 4 in a 800 sq ft apartment.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unless you actually need it and you won’t be seen by a professor just because you feel like. Germany will try to make you live healthier life through preventative medicine, Turkey will try to give you a 5 minutes access to a doctor and infrastructure quickly. I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one.
  - legitster 3y ago
    I think as much as Americans like the idea of European healthcare systems, I think most of them would be appalled in practice. Not that it's inherently inferior, but part of the reason healthcare is so expensive in America is that Americans (perhaps a bit spoiled by our own prosperity) demand lots of care. My wife's sister saw specialists 11 different times last year because she was not happy with the advice. And I would not say this is an entirely unheard of extreme. In the US, if someone gets denied anything from their doctor, it is somewhat of a scandal.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Different expectation and I respect both approaches. I'm accustomed to the EU version of it and I expect the doctor to tell me what to do and my defence against bad advice is getting a second opinion. In Turkey, where I lived for quite a while, the modus operandi is that you go to the hospital to demand something. If the government ones don't make you happy you go to the private one and they will pour all the tests you can handle. Once I thought I'm having a heart attack and rushed to the ER in a private hospital. Turns out I'm just a bit dehydrated, so drinking water would do it but the doctor asked me if I would like an IV. I was appalled because my expectation is that if I need an IV the doc should just do it, he should't ask me. I asked if I need it, he said it's not necessary but can speed up the recovery. It turns out, Turks like to go to the hospital to get an IV when they don't feel very well, they just like that a professional is taking care of them even if they don't actually need a medical intervention and they will get better spontaneously as they rest and the private hospitals provide this service. I like the European way better.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one. To my understanding, infant mortality has less to do with quality of care, and a lot more to do with environmental and genetic factors. The biggest causes of infant mortality in the US are congenital defects and complications due to premature birth. There seem to be enough confounding factors that I'd question comparing infant mortality rates across borders to begin with.
- ginko 3y ago
  If there's one thing I wouldn't want to do in the United States it would be raising a family. Seems like there is absolutely zero freedom for children there.
rafaelero 3y ago
Nobody said GDP equals quality of life, what are you talking about?
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  What is the point of GDP as a metric then? Who is the economy serving? Why have an economy if it's not improving quality of life to some extent. GDP is most often used by the government of a single country to measure its economic health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
  - rafaelero 3y ago
    There are a bunch of benefits of having economic power that doesn't relate to happiness. Power projection and resilience to hard times are some of them.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      You injected the word "happiness" I did not. All the tings you mentioned still should have a meaning, positive impact on the lives of the populace.
  - cman1444 3y ago
    Just because GDP isn't a direct measure of quality of life doesn't make it a useless statistic. It's also useful to measure the economic heft of a country which is important in a macro context. Sometimes things need to be viewed from the top down, not just the ground up.
- woooooo 3y ago
  It tends to get thoughtlessly assumed, rather than argued or asserted.

by mrtksn 3y ago

Aperocky 3y ago

The existing metrics are already the fairest. i.e. Life expectancy, work length, income, spending, etc. Metrics has to be objectively measurable, otherwise they would have a huge subjective bias. Some people can be happy and enjoy life in almost any circumstances - but that is much harder to measure across societies and you'll end up with scams like "happiest country on Earth".

legitster 3y ago

I was recently talking with a friend who moved to Germany and loved it. But now that he is raising a family he is planning on moving back to the states. There's definitely a quantity/quality difference. Things in Germany are just nicer. But at a certain point, the "niceness" of things doesn't matter to you much anymore when you are trying to raise a family of 4 in a 800 sq ft apartment.

mrtksn 3y ago
Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unless you actually need it and you won’t be seen by a professor just because you feel like. Germany will try to make you live healthier life through preventative medicine, Turkey will try to give you a 5 minutes access to a doctor and infrastructure quickly. I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one.
- legitster 3y ago
  I think as much as Americans like the idea of European healthcare systems, I think most of them would be appalled in practice. Not that it's inherently inferior, but part of the reason healthcare is so expensive in America is that Americans (perhaps a bit spoiled by our own prosperity) demand lots of care. My wife's sister saw specialists 11 different times last year because she was not happy with the advice. And I would not say this is an entirely unheard of extreme. In the US, if someone gets denied anything from their doctor, it is somewhat of a scandal.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Different expectation and I respect both approaches. I'm accustomed to the EU version of it and I expect the doctor to tell me what to do and my defence against bad advice is getting a second opinion. In Turkey, where I lived for quite a while, the modus operandi is that you go to the hospital to demand something. If the government ones don't make you happy you go to the private one and they will pour all the tests you can handle. Once I thought I'm having a heart attack and rushed to the ER in a private hospital. Turns out I'm just a bit dehydrated, so drinking water would do it but the doctor asked me if I would like an IV. I was appalled because my expectation is that if I need an IV the doc should just do it, he should't ask me. I asked if I need it, he said it's not necessary but can speed up the recovery. It turns out, Turks like to go to the hospital to get an IV when they don't feel very well, they just like that a professional is taking care of them even if they don't actually need a medical intervention and they will get better spontaneously as they rest and the private hospitals provide this service. I like the European way better.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one. To my understanding, infant mortality has less to do with quality of care, and a lot more to do with environmental and genetic factors. The biggest causes of infant mortality in the US are congenital defects and complications due to premature birth. There seem to be enough confounding factors that I'd question comparing infant mortality rates across borders to begin with.
ginko 3y ago
If there's one thing I wouldn't want to do in the United States it would be raising a family. Seems like there is absolutely zero freedom for children there.

rafaelero 3y ago

Nobody said GDP equals quality of life, what are you talking about?

ChatGTP 3y ago
What is the point of GDP as a metric then? Who is the economy serving? Why have an economy if it's not improving quality of life to some extent. GDP is most often used by the government of a single country to measure its economic health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
- rafaelero 3y ago
  There are a bunch of benefits of having economic power that doesn't relate to happiness. Power projection and resilience to hard times are some of them.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    You injected the word "happiness" I did not. All the tings you mentioned still should have a meaning, positive impact on the lives of the populace.
- cman1444 3y ago
  Just because GDP isn't a direct measure of quality of life doesn't make it a useless statistic. It's also useful to measure the economic heft of a country which is important in a macro context. Sometimes things need to be viewed from the top down, not just the ground up.
woooooo 3y ago
It tends to get thoughtlessly assumed, rather than argued or asserted.