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Some loose thoughts: Military aircraft cockpits sometimes don't have a great concept of "inside" and "outside", the way a cell, waterproof device, the aircraft

Some loose thoughts: Military aircraft cockpits sometimes don't have a great concept of "inside" and "outside", the way a cell, waterproof device, the aircraft's pressure seal etc do. If you drop something (FOD), there may not be a clearly defined boundary to where it can end up, or it may not be possible to see or get to it while strapped in etc. Rudder pedals, or the various mechanical and electrical connections around them, as indicated in the article, are a great example of this. If you can't find it, the AC may have to be grounded and thoroughly searched/panels removed etc. Military avionics may be missing basic things that an EFB can help with, including maps, nav point and airport databases, weather info, ADSB info etc. EFBs are (IMO) a poor substitute due to the FOD concern here, the clunky touch screen interface (which you probably have to take gloves off for), the risk of getting locked out of important things like checklist and plates by BlackBerry, Foreflight licenses, passcode timers or other security layer etc. You might have a jet that's 30 years old, just got retrofitted with a really nice radar etc, but the funding didn't make it through for a database, better displays/UI etc that would be better integrated with a jet, so you lean on the EFBs. There are sometimes EFB mounts that can attach to a canopy via suction cup, clip onto various surfaces etc.

rsynnott 3y ago
> If you can't find it, the AC may have to be grounded and thoroughly searched/panels removed etc. _Why_ is this? Weight reduction or something? On the face of it it sounds like a design flaw.
- PuffinBlue 3y ago
  I think the article and this mishap is an example of the reason why - if you can't find a dropped and loose object in the cockpit then you can't fly the aircraft because it may move in flight to somewhere where it can interfere with the controls. In writing this answer it struck me you might be reading AC as Air Conditioning, instead of AirCraft, which I suppose could have lead to your question asking about weight reduction.
  - lukeschlather 3y ago
    Out of context I read AC as "alternating current" with "grounded" taking on a totally different meaning.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Hopefully, we never need an aircraft to be fully grounded with a tethered cable. That'd be ridiculous. As a kid, I had a plane that was tethered and would only fly in circles. Oh, where the mind wanders on a Friday
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
        > Hopefully, we never need an aircraft to be fully grounded with a tethered cable. That’s one way of landing an helicopter on a boat in a rough sea. It works surprisingly well.
        dylan604 3y ago
        Speaking of grounding a helicopter, it reminded me of the Hunt For Red October scene of trying to get a person from a helicopter to a submarine. It always seemed like such a complicated something as opposed to just putting someone in the water to let a diver collect them, which is precisely what wound up happening anyways
        Arrath 3y ago
        My cousin was picked up from a submarine by a helicopter, I'll have to ask him how that was orchestrated.
        dylan604 3y ago
        To me, it's still a helicopter that can hover. If your cousin had been picked up from a submarine with a sky hook, then that's over the top.
- awhow 3y ago
  You don't want a screwdriver, or anything else, pressed up against a control rod or a rotating component.
- 83 3y ago
  Because while the FOD might not be an immediate problem, it could bounce around and get caught in a mechanical linkage causing a fatal crash, could be rubbing against wires causing a fatal crash, could start on fire (if it has lithium battery) causing a fatal crash, could cause a huge delay when maintenance finds a random part bouncing around later on and they don't know what it's from... you get the idea.
  - ta123456789 3y ago
    I thought the question is not why this is a problem, but rather why is it possible at all for a loose object to end up in the depths of the AC to cause problems. Is there some reason we cannot avoid this? From a laymans perspective I think of a car, where dropping something small while driving is unlikely to cause problems in the machinery.
    - r3trohack3r 3y ago
      Depending on your definition of “small” this is not true. I used to slide my flip flops off while driving until one got wedged under the break pedal and prevented me from breaking.
      - qotgalaxy 3y ago
        [dead]
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      Well, for starters, cars are designed to only travel in two dimensions, so that limits the problem quite a bit.
    - bitwalker 3y ago
      Cars have a lot of trim/seals/insulation/carpeting to reduce road noise and be aesthetically pleasing, and military aircraft cockpits don't care about either of those things, and are largely just a metal tube with racks on which all of the avionics and other cockpit equipment are mounted, with holes in a handful of places where wiring harnesses enter/exit the cockpit. All of that equipment is regularly worked on, removed/replaced, and so it is necessary that it be (relatively) easy to access and remove. The equivalent would be like if you had to pull all of the instruments, electronics, and seats out of your car every 1000 miles, clean them up, replace faulty bits, and then put it all back again. All of the fancy trim, carpeting, etc., just makes that job harder, so you would probably want a car that doesn't have any of that, and is designed to make doing that kind of work easier, better still if you can avoid having to remove everything, and only have to remove the bits individually that need to be maintained. The down side of course, is that without all of the fancy trim and stuff, there would be gaps where things could fall and be hard to reach, and holes where wiring travels to the engine compartment/trunk/etc. Of course, FOD presents way less of a danger in a car than it does an aircraft, so you might not care if you drop something there, but aside from that, I think the analogy holds up.
- maushu 3y ago
  Because the missing device might cause something similar to this crash but instead with a internal mechanism. You really don't want loose stuff around moving mechanisms.
sph 3y ago
FOD? EFB? Any explanation of these acronyms for people outside the US military?
- black6 3y ago
  Foreign Object (Debris|Damage) Electronic Flight Book
- d1sxeyes 3y ago
  Foreign Object Debris (shit that’s not supposed be there) and Electronic Flight Bag (an iPad or some other type of device which replaces paperwork)
- fullstop 3y ago
  FOD = Foreign Object Debris EFB = Electronic Flight ~Book~ Bag edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag It's bag, not book.
  - foobarbecue 3y ago
    The article says the B in EFB is "bag." Seemed strange to me, but I'm not familiar with the term. Do you think the article got it wrong?
    - theolivenbaum 3y ago
      It used to be an actual bag full of paper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_bag https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_bag
    - fullstop 3y ago
      I could be wrong, for sure.
    - modernerd 3y ago
      > The EFB gets its name from the traditional pilot's flight bag, which is typically a heavy (up to or over 18 kg or 40 lb) documents bag that pilots carry to the cockpit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag
FabHK 3y ago
Near-crash due to dropped pen: Air show plane went into nose dive after loose pen in cockpit jammed the controls https://archive.is/YmIgB https://archive.is/YmIgB
- bbojan 3y ago
  There was a helicopter crash in Canada due to an unrestrained tool bag: https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa/2019/10/30/1_4662438.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa/20... And this one in Ireland due to a rag: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/helicopter-crash-caused-by-cleaning-cloth-1.846677 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/helicopter-crash-caused-by-c...
mmaunder 3y ago
FOD? “EFBs are (IMO) a poor substitute due to the FOD concern here, the clunky touch screen interface (which you probably have to take gloves off for), the risk of getting locked out of important things like checklist and plates by BlackBerry, Foreflight licenses, passcode timers or other security layer etc.”??? This is basically just wrong. EFBs like ForeFlight are an incredibly rich and indispensable suite of tools from approach plates to a huge range of charts to log books to synthetic vision to adsb-in and much more. And operationally they’re very reliable and robust. I’m instrument rated, fly with a primary and backup iPad and have mine clamped to the yoke and it ain’t going anywhere. ForeFlight licenses? What are you even talking about? In North America FF is almost a standard among GA pilots.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- civilitty 3y ago
  The GP is talking about them in an operational military context, not a GA. I'm not too familiar with helicopters but see the L39 Alabtross or T38, for example. Even in trainer jets that are optimized for keeping students alive, the PIC can barely fit an iPad mini anywhere in the cockpit and there are tons of little places for things to fall and jam any number of mechanical linkages.
scarier 3y ago
For perspective, the thing EFBs primarily replace is paper charts and approach plates, which are probably a worse FOD hazard due to how many different ones you have to use on a long flight. Most military pilots are trained to “dummy-cord” or otherwise secure anything that can become a FOD hazard inside the cockpit. There are plenty of products out there that let you strap a tablet to your leg at least as securely as a traditional kneeboard or IFR strap.

rsynnott 3y ago

> If you can't find it, the AC may have to be grounded and thoroughly searched/panels removed etc. _Why_ is this? Weight reduction or something? On the face of it it sounds like a design flaw.

PuffinBlue 3y ago
I think the article and this mishap is an example of the reason why - if you can't find a dropped and loose object in the cockpit then you can't fly the aircraft because it may move in flight to somewhere where it can interfere with the controls. In writing this answer it struck me you might be reading AC as Air Conditioning, instead of AirCraft, which I suppose could have lead to your question asking about weight reduction.
- lukeschlather 3y ago
  Out of context I read AC as "alternating current" with "grounded" taking on a totally different meaning.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Hopefully, we never need an aircraft to be fully grounded with a tethered cable. That'd be ridiculous. As a kid, I had a plane that was tethered and would only fly in circles. Oh, where the mind wanders on a Friday
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
      > Hopefully, we never need an aircraft to be fully grounded with a tethered cable. That’s one way of landing an helicopter on a boat in a rough sea. It works surprisingly well.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Speaking of grounding a helicopter, it reminded me of the Hunt For Red October scene of trying to get a person from a helicopter to a submarine. It always seemed like such a complicated something as opposed to just putting someone in the water to let a diver collect them, which is precisely what wound up happening anyways
        Arrath 3y ago
        My cousin was picked up from a submarine by a helicopter, I'll have to ask him how that was orchestrated.
        dylan604 3y ago
        To me, it's still a helicopter that can hover. If your cousin had been picked up from a submarine with a sky hook, then that's over the top.
awhow 3y ago
You don't want a screwdriver, or anything else, pressed up against a control rod or a rotating component.
83 3y ago
Because while the FOD might not be an immediate problem, it could bounce around and get caught in a mechanical linkage causing a fatal crash, could be rubbing against wires causing a fatal crash, could start on fire (if it has lithium battery) causing a fatal crash, could cause a huge delay when maintenance finds a random part bouncing around later on and they don't know what it's from... you get the idea.
- ta123456789 3y ago
  I thought the question is not why this is a problem, but rather why is it possible at all for a loose object to end up in the depths of the AC to cause problems. Is there some reason we cannot avoid this? From a laymans perspective I think of a car, where dropping something small while driving is unlikely to cause problems in the machinery.
  - r3trohack3r 3y ago
    Depending on your definition of “small” this is not true. I used to slide my flip flops off while driving until one got wedged under the break pedal and prevented me from breaking.
    - qotgalaxy 3y ago
      [dead]
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Well, for starters, cars are designed to only travel in two dimensions, so that limits the problem quite a bit.
  - bitwalker 3y ago
    Cars have a lot of trim/seals/insulation/carpeting to reduce road noise and be aesthetically pleasing, and military aircraft cockpits don't care about either of those things, and are largely just a metal tube with racks on which all of the avionics and other cockpit equipment are mounted, with holes in a handful of places where wiring harnesses enter/exit the cockpit. All of that equipment is regularly worked on, removed/replaced, and so it is necessary that it be (relatively) easy to access and remove. The equivalent would be like if you had to pull all of the instruments, electronics, and seats out of your car every 1000 miles, clean them up, replace faulty bits, and then put it all back again. All of the fancy trim, carpeting, etc., just makes that job harder, so you would probably want a car that doesn't have any of that, and is designed to make doing that kind of work easier, better still if you can avoid having to remove everything, and only have to remove the bits individually that need to be maintained. The down side of course, is that without all of the fancy trim and stuff, there would be gaps where things could fall and be hard to reach, and holes where wiring travels to the engine compartment/trunk/etc. Of course, FOD presents way less of a danger in a car than it does an aircraft, so you might not care if you drop something there, but aside from that, I think the analogy holds up.
maushu 3y ago
Because the missing device might cause something similar to this crash but instead with a internal mechanism. You really don't want loose stuff around moving mechanisms.

sph 3y ago

FOD? EFB? Any explanation of these acronyms for people outside the US military?

black6 3y ago
Foreign Object (Debris|Damage) Electronic Flight Book
d1sxeyes 3y ago
Foreign Object Debris (shit that’s not supposed be there) and Electronic Flight Bag (an iPad or some other type of device which replaces paperwork)
fullstop 3y ago
FOD = Foreign Object Debris EFB = Electronic Flight ~Book~ Bag edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag It's bag, not book.
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  The article says the B in EFB is "bag." Seemed strange to me, but I'm not familiar with the term. Do you think the article got it wrong?
  - theolivenbaum 3y ago
    It used to be an actual bag full of paper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_bag https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_bag
  - fullstop 3y ago
    I could be wrong, for sure.
  - modernerd 3y ago
    > The EFB gets its name from the traditional pilot's flight bag, which is typically a heavy (up to or over 18 kg or 40 lb) documents bag that pilots carry to the cockpit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag

FabHK 3y ago

Near-crash due to dropped pen: Air show plane went into nose dive after loose pen in cockpit jammed the controls https://archive.is/YmIgB https://archive.is/YmIgB

bbojan 3y ago
There was a helicopter crash in Canada due to an unrestrained tool bag: https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa/2019/10/30/1_4662438.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa/20... And this one in Ireland due to a rag: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/helicopter-crash-caused-by-cleaning-cloth-1.846677 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/helicopter-crash-caused-by-c...

mmaunder 3y ago

FOD? “EFBs are (IMO) a poor substitute due to the FOD concern here, the clunky touch screen interface (which you probably have to take gloves off for), the risk of getting locked out of important things like checklist and plates by BlackBerry, Foreflight licenses, passcode timers or other security layer etc.”??? This is basically just wrong. EFBs like ForeFlight are an incredibly rich and indispensable suite of tools from approach plates to a huge range of charts to log books to synthetic vision to adsb-in and much more. And operationally they’re very reliable and robust. I’m instrument rated, fly with a primary and backup iPad and have mine clamped to the yoke and it ain’t going anywhere. ForeFlight licenses? What are you even talking about? In North America FF is almost a standard among GA pilots.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
civilitty 3y ago
The GP is talking about them in an operational military context, not a GA. I'm not too familiar with helicopters but see the L39 Alabtross or T38, for example. Even in trainer jets that are optimized for keeping students alive, the PIC can barely fit an iPad mini anywhere in the cockpit and there are tons of little places for things to fall and jam any number of mechanical linkages.

scarier 3y ago

For perspective, the thing EFBs primarily replace is paper charts and approach plates, which are probably a worse FOD hazard due to how many different ones you have to use on a long flight. Most military pilots are trained to “dummy-cord” or otherwise secure anything that can become a FOD hazard inside the cockpit. There are plenty of products out there that let you strap a tablet to your leg at least as securely as a traditional kneeboard or IFR strap.