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> No, it does not outweigh the emissions of the vehicle over its lifetime. Do you have some data to back this up? It seems very unlikely that you’d save an ent

> No, it does not outweigh the emissions of the vehicle over its lifetime. Do you have some data to back this up? It seems very unlikely that you’d save an entire vehicle’s worth of ecological destruction by moving from ICE to power plant. The real answer is walkways, bike paths, public transportation, trains, remote work and to turn all of our freeways into green spaces.

mwint 3y ago
> to turn all of our freeways into green spaces. And live and die within 20mi of where you’re born?
- cornercasechase 3y ago
  Sounds nice! But of course not necessary when you have high speed rail.
  - mwint 3y ago
    Okay, so 20mi of where you were born and the four other places easily accessible by rail. It just wouldn’t work in rural, spread out America. (Anyway, if we cave to this demand, getting rid of trains will be next on the docket. Remember when the green folks were all about EVs, until they started happening? And now it’s “no personal transportation”?)
  - Tade0 3y ago
    High-speed rail can't stop too often, so all the towns in between stops and far from that line would have to be served by low speed rail, running a few times a day at most. As everywhere - there's a tradeoff between efficiency and latency. Sometimes it's not worth going all in with efficiency.
- nurumaik 3y ago
  Rail for long-distance travel
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  It never even occurred to me that dying on the antipode of my birthplace would be a goal of mine. Different strokes and all that I suppose.
- okanat 3y ago
  This is a strawman argument. In Europe university students travel hundereds if not thousands of kilometers to do exchange which can be done by train and many actually do. This is usually the most suitable and most likely time for someone to travel really long distances. There are also those things called planes which many trains have an express line to. Even medium speed rail enable people to commute distances like 80 km (50 mi) under 40 minutes, ~30 times each day. There are people who are doing that in my company.
  - mavhc 3y ago
    Emissions for driving ICE vs flying in a plane are very similar, don't fly.
tw04 3y ago
> It seems very unlikely that you’d save an entire vehicle’s worth of ecological destruction by moving from ICE to power plant. Why would that seem very unlikely? What is the daily carbon output of a solar panel, wind turbine, hydro electric dam, or nuclear power plant? > The real answer is walkways, bike paths, public transportation, trains, remote work and to turn all of our freeways into green spaces. There are entire industries that can’t function without in person work. Talking about turning all freeways into green spaces makes you sound incredibly out of touch with the average American.
slashdev 3y ago
The power plants are a lot more efficient, but it does require converting the electric grid over to renewables and nuclear. Natural gas is cleaner, but it’s a stop on the way to the destination, not the destination. We will also achieve that, because quite frankly, we have no choice in the matter. Walkways, bike paths, and public transit are great things. I wish they did more of that where I live. I’d rather not use cars when I have the option. But they will never be the solution. They should be a part of the solution.
- JackSlateur 3y ago
  Electricity transportation is not efficient Recycling EV stuff is also terrible Funny fact: here in france, in 2019 (so pre-covid), automobile were responsible for 10% of the petroleum consumption on the main land 10%, yes, just 10% (source: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2119673 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2119673) The project to replace all cars by EV cars is a fraud. I'm sure not everybody will lose in that project. But don't worry : in the best case (which we know will never be anything but theory and dream), we will resolve 10% of the initial problem. Awesome!
  - schiffern 3y ago
    >10%, yes, just 10% You forgot to include diesel (Gazole), which makes up a whopping 46% of all petroleum use in France. As for your "scam," it doesn't exist. Nobody's claiming EVs can solve the entire sustainability problem all by themselves. That would be oversimplified, "Silver Bullet" thinking. EVs are great, but they're just one part of a complete sustainable economy. "Necessary but not sufficient." [edit: removed a faulty statistic in a tangent]
    - orwin 3y ago
      19% from renewables and 78% from nuclear from what i read, so you're off by an order of magnitude here.
    - JeanMarcS 3y ago
      I don't understand where you get those number from. In the first paragraph of your link : > In 2020, nuclear power made up the largest portion of electricity generation, at around 78%.[2] Renewables accounted for 19.1% of energy consumption.
mbgerring 3y ago
It’s extremely likely, given the rapid and accelerating decarbonization of the electric grid in every country with lots of cars. Here’s one study (of many), using only the then-current electric grid, which will become cleaner over time: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-l...
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
> Do you have some data to back this up? The graphs in this very article back this assertion up! https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/Electric-Vehicles-for-Everyone-The-Impossible-Dream-figure-4.png https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/El... https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/Electric-Vehicles-for-Everyone-The-Impossible-Dream-figure-5.png https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/El...
throwuwu 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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jwestbury 3y ago
Engineering Explained went into this in some detail in a video about five years ago[0]. The key takeaway: If two people were driving the same car, and one sold their car and bought an electric car whilst the other kept driving the old car, it would take less than five years (on average) for the electric car to have less emissions than the old, ICE vehicle. There are certainly some other moral questions here, involving treatment of labour in places where, e.g., we mine for lithium, but those are a bit harder to quantify. The quantifiable aspects are pretty clear, and electric cars are the clear winner. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM
Tade0 3y ago
> It seems very unlikely that you’d save an entire vehicle’s worth of ecological destruction by moving from ICE to power plant. Even a compact vehicle goes through ~20 tonnes of fuel throughout its lifetime - that's an order of magnitude more than it weighs. Fuel production in and of itself is an energy-intensive process, with crude being cracked into shorter chains of hydrocarbons at a minimum temperature of 450°C and, depending on the process, pressure of up to 70 atmospheres. What's more polluting? Producing an appropriate number of solar panels and 350kg worth of battery, or cooking 20 tonnes of crude, which isn't even the whole process?
RobinL 3y ago
You can see some interactive calculations here that show the breakeven (the point at which EV beats ICE on carbon emissions) is around 26,000 km in the UK: https://www.robinlinacre.com/carbon_electric_car/ https://www.robinlinacre.com/carbon_electric_car/ There are two big effects: - the energy usage per mile of electric vehicles is far lower than ICE - some of the energy used by an electric car can come from renewable sources

mwint 3y ago

> to turn all of our freeways into green spaces. And live and die within 20mi of where you’re born?

cornercasechase 3y ago
Sounds nice! But of course not necessary when you have high speed rail.
- mwint 3y ago
  Okay, so 20mi of where you were born and the four other places easily accessible by rail. It just wouldn’t work in rural, spread out America. (Anyway, if we cave to this demand, getting rid of trains will be next on the docket. Remember when the green folks were all about EVs, until they started happening? And now it’s “no personal transportation”?)
- Tade0 3y ago
  High-speed rail can't stop too often, so all the towns in between stops and far from that line would have to be served by low speed rail, running a few times a day at most. As everywhere - there's a tradeoff between efficiency and latency. Sometimes it's not worth going all in with efficiency.
nurumaik 3y ago
Rail for long-distance travel
hotpotamus 3y ago
It never even occurred to me that dying on the antipode of my birthplace would be a goal of mine. Different strokes and all that I suppose.
okanat 3y ago
This is a strawman argument. In Europe university students travel hundereds if not thousands of kilometers to do exchange which can be done by train and many actually do. This is usually the most suitable and most likely time for someone to travel really long distances. There are also those things called planes which many trains have an express line to. Even medium speed rail enable people to commute distances like 80 km (50 mi) under 40 minutes, ~30 times each day. There are people who are doing that in my company.
- mavhc 3y ago
  Emissions for driving ICE vs flying in a plane are very similar, don't fly.

tw04 3y ago

> It seems very unlikely that you’d save an entire vehicle’s worth of ecological destruction by moving from ICE to power plant. Why would that seem very unlikely? What is the daily carbon output of a solar panel, wind turbine, hydro electric dam, or nuclear power plant? > The real answer is walkways, bike paths, public transportation, trains, remote work and to turn all of our freeways into green spaces. There are entire industries that can’t function without in person work. Talking about turning all freeways into green spaces makes you sound incredibly out of touch with the average American.

slashdev 3y ago

The power plants are a lot more efficient, but it does require converting the electric grid over to renewables and nuclear. Natural gas is cleaner, but it’s a stop on the way to the destination, not the destination. We will also achieve that, because quite frankly, we have no choice in the matter. Walkways, bike paths, and public transit are great things. I wish they did more of that where I live. I’d rather not use cars when I have the option. But they will never be the solution. They should be a part of the solution.

JackSlateur 3y ago
Electricity transportation is not efficient Recycling EV stuff is also terrible Funny fact: here in france, in 2019 (so pre-covid), automobile were responsible for 10% of the petroleum consumption on the main land 10%, yes, just 10% (source: https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2119673 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2119673) The project to replace all cars by EV cars is a fraud. I'm sure not everybody will lose in that project. But don't worry : in the best case (which we know will never be anything but theory and dream), we will resolve 10% of the initial problem. Awesome!
- schiffern 3y ago
  >10%, yes, just 10% You forgot to include diesel (Gazole), which makes up a whopping 46% of all petroleum use in France. As for your "scam," it doesn't exist. Nobody's claiming EVs can solve the entire sustainability problem all by themselves. That would be oversimplified, "Silver Bullet" thinking. EVs are great, but they're just one part of a complete sustainable economy. "Necessary but not sufficient." [edit: removed a faulty statistic in a tangent]
  - orwin 3y ago
    19% from renewables and 78% from nuclear from what i read, so you're off by an order of magnitude here.
  - JeanMarcS 3y ago
    I don't understand where you get those number from. In the first paragraph of your link : > In 2020, nuclear power made up the largest portion of electricity generation, at around 78%.[2] Renewables accounted for 19.1% of energy consumption.

mbgerring 3y ago

It’s extremely likely, given the rapid and accelerating decarbonization of the electric grid in every country with lots of cars. Here’s one study (of many), using only the then-current electric grid, which will become cleaner over time: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-l...

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

> Do you have some data to back this up? The graphs in this very article back this assertion up! https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/Electric-Vehicles-for-Everyone-The-Impossible-Dream-figure-4.png https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/El... https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/Electric-Vehicles-for-Everyone-The-Impossible-Dream-figure-5.png https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/El...

throwuwu 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jwestbury 3y ago

Engineering Explained went into this in some detail in a video about five years ago[0]. The key takeaway: If two people were driving the same car, and one sold their car and bought an electric car whilst the other kept driving the old car, it would take less than five years (on average) for the electric car to have less emissions than the old, ICE vehicle. There are certainly some other moral questions here, involving treatment of labour in places where, e.g., we mine for lithium, but those are a bit harder to quantify. The quantifiable aspects are pretty clear, and electric cars are the clear winner. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

Tade0 3y ago

> It seems very unlikely that you’d save an entire vehicle’s worth of ecological destruction by moving from ICE to power plant. Even a compact vehicle goes through ~20 tonnes of fuel throughout its lifetime - that's an order of magnitude more than it weighs. Fuel production in and of itself is an energy-intensive process, with crude being cracked into shorter chains of hydrocarbons at a minimum temperature of 450°C and, depending on the process, pressure of up to 70 atmospheres. What's more polluting? Producing an appropriate number of solar panels and 350kg worth of battery, or cooking 20 tonnes of crude, which isn't even the whole process?

RobinL 3y ago

You can see some interactive calculations here that show the breakeven (the point at which EV beats ICE on carbon emissions) is around 26,000 km in the UK: https://www.robinlinacre.com/carbon_electric_car/ https://www.robinlinacre.com/carbon_electric_car/ There are two big effects: - the energy usage per mile of electric vehicles is far lower than ICE - some of the energy used by an electric car can come from renewable sources