11 ms·

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its locati

by wayne 3y ago

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That eliminates all Asian competition and the US airlines get a monopoly even though they barely fly there and many of these flights are codeshares being operated by Asian airlines!

triceratops 3y ago
Can't you buy 2 separate tickets?
- messe 3y ago
  The issue then is if you have checked luggage.
  - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
    So get your luggage? Deboarding, going through immigration, getting luggage, and going through customs takes no more than 45 minutes at Narita. Give yourself a 2 hour layover to be safe. Or pack like Rick Steves and just bring a backpack with the essentials.
    - pipnonsense 3y ago
      I don't think they ever meant it's impossible to get there, just unnecessarily difficult (or expensive) due to a regulation that is bring unnecessary hassle (which is exactly what you are describing, but, somehow, using a tone that it's something smooth).
    - reillyse 3y ago
      A backpack and a production crew :)
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      You don’t need to go through immigration at Narita if you are just transferring planes at the airport.
      - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
        You don't get a transfer if you've bought two separate flights. You have to pick up your luggage and put it on the next flight.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        If the airlines have agreements, you can often get your luggage automatically routed to your next flight. I used to do that between Alaska Airlines and Hainan. Not sure if you can get that done in Tokyo, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were actually possible.
    - kmeisthax 3y ago
      They don't let you check bags right before the plane takes off - AFAIK it's either 30 minutes or an hour before depending on what airline and airport[0] you change at. So a 2 hour layover "to be safe" would at best give you a grand total of 15 minutes to get all the way back to departures, recheck your bags, go through security, the immigration checkpoint, get to your new gate, etc. If there's any delay, you miss your next flight, and the airline will not rebook you because your layover's a self-connection, not an actually ticketed thing. So your Guam trip just became a Japan trip. 3 hours would actually have some safety margin in it for short delays. Personally I don't get how people manage really short connections, and I hear plenty of people getting screwed over because of them. Also, I'm not entirely sure how this works with immigration. The visitor form for Japan asks you about your hotel you plan to stay at - which you won't have since you aren't intending this to become a Japan trip. I have no clue if the immigration officer actually checks that field or if it's purely just for keeping records on tourists. [0] I heard an hour at LAX. This is the same airport that universally refuses to store luggage overnight - a fact that even people in the airport industry don't seem to understand - so perhaps this is just a rule specific to that tire fire of an airport.
- yongjik 3y ago
  That's going to be at least twice as expensive as one ticket with a layover.
- rtpg 3y ago
  you can but you're going to pay more in general. There are a lot of pricing rules around layovers that make it cheaper than buying tickets separately (basically to give the airlines flexibility to utilize all their planes).
whalesalad 3y ago
United goes direct from Honolulu
- coredog64 3y ago
  You can also take the scenic route from HI to RMI to FSM. I can’t think of any reason to hang out in Majuro, but two of the FSM stops are great sightseeing destinations. On Pohnpei you can visit Nan Madol. If you’re into diving, there’s a huge number of Japanese warships sunk near Chuuk.
- interrupt21h 3y ago
  This. Used for American Samoa...just make damn sure to make your connection. If it's anything like American Samoa, there are only a few flights a week. The smart move is to arrive a day early in Hawaii and spend the night
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Dude. Just buy two separate round trip tickets.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  And pray neither is delayed, causing you to miss the next leg.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Just space them out out or even take a couple days to visit Japan. Some airports even have programs where they'll take you on a field trip during your layover
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      These suggestions are cognitive load on the person making the trip. Most people break out in sweats thinking about organizing a trip to begin with, booking something with any complexity or risk is unbearable to them. My parents are both like this.
      - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
        I had a partner like that. Would freak out if I started driving without our destination already in the GPS. I think at least half of travel should be an adventure. Adventures are uncomfortable - but they make the best stories. Nobody has ever said, "Man, remember that time we went on that perfectly planned trip where nothing out of the ordinary happened? How exciting!"
        bluGill 3y ago
        Sure I remember the adventure in Denver that one time, but we barely made it to the funeral the trip was about, and we missed a lot of time with family. If you just want to travel randomly, then no plan is fine. However we laid out plans can ensure you get to the must sees that are farther from home. Also many close to home things have wierd hours They are open so if you don't plan you won't see them that trip.
r24y 3y ago
Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.
- CobaltFire 3y ago
  My family and I loved our time there (Navy as well). We almost retired there, but my son's health condition(s) precludes that. Space-A is how we flew back during our tour there, and if you know the tricks it work great. If you don't it's a nightmare.
  - bigfryo 3y ago
    My father was stationed in Guam for a couple of years during the Korean War but he was in the Navy. And then when I was getting mustered out of the Navy 40 years ago I landed on Guam briefly on a flight out of Kobe Japan, on my way to Hawaii
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  > those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    There is quite a bit of difference between the inconvenience of not having a Target that gets frequent shipments of a wide variety of goods which help ease daily life, and not having the amenities of a 15M person city versus a 1.5M person city. My biggest pain point of remote island life is not having access to a variety of affordable dairy foods.
TulliusCicero 3y ago
I wish we'd get rid of this rule entirely. Just seems like naked protectionism, no? If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  You make it sound like that's a US-specific rule, but there's an equivalent rule in basically every country (with some exceptions, the main one being between EU member states).
  - silverpepsi 3y ago
    Two wrongs don't make a right?
    - maxcan 3y ago
      No, but they often add up to a stable Nash equilibrium.
- fransje26 3y ago
  It's better than that. Those are IATA rules, and IATA has been functioning as a cartel more or less since it has been founded..
  - realityking 3y ago
    They‘re actually defined by ICAO, a UN agency with states as members. And the actual restrictions are of course a matter of domestic legislation stemming out countries sovereignty over their airspace. These restrictions largely don‘t exist among European Union member states and between Australia and New Zealand. IATAs cartel like behavior was due to them regulating airline prices and services. This started at a time when governments where still regulating domestic prices thinking that competition on price or service would lead to cutting corners on safety.
- zoky 3y ago
jlmorton 3y ago
> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement. There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.
  - jlmorton 3y ago
    Nevertheless, notice the other example I gave is a United flight originating in Honolulu, Hawaii, transiting Micronesia, and ending in Guam. It’s the same rule.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      That is an American airline flight that starts and ends in the US, therefore complying with the rule.
      - jlmorton 3y ago
        The rule is simply that foreign-owned airlines can’t fly point-to-point routes between US destinations. I’m in Chicago, and I can book a Korean Air, non-codeshare ORD-ICN-GUM right now. You can find it on Kayak.
        mjg59 3y ago
        Kayak may offer it, but if you try to book that on the Korean Air website you get: "This is based on the regulations of the U.S. Department of Transportation and you cannot make a reservation for an itinerary from the mainland U.S. to Guam (GUM) via a third country" The rule is not that foreign-owned airlines can't fly point-to-point routes between US destinations - Air Canada can't sell SFO→JFK via Toronto, for instance. You may somehow be able to cause something to be ticketed, but that doesn't mean that you'd be able to check in.
smcin 3y ago
Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge") So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific? [0]: "Guam replaces Honolulu as stop for PAL flights" https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-replaces-honolulu-stop-pal-flights https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-re... [1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW) [2]: discussed on https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-technical-stop-guam.html https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-techni... I'm sure Gordon Lightfoot (RIP) could have sung about treaties...
- throwaway742 3y ago
  What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?
  - smcin 3y ago
    I'm sure they'd treat you locally (I wonder if air-rage cases get dropped there unscheduled, too, although I don't think so). It's not like the border is hermetically sealed; just disembarking on those particular flights is not available to passengers or skiplaggers. (To be clear, that's because it's a non-US (Philippine Airlines) flight on a technical stopover in a US territory (Guam)). The limitation is purely legal. The airline treaties distort pricing and competition, otherwise it should be possible to do a 24/48h stopover in Guam, Taipei etc., and even lower your overall ticket price if you're flexible about dates. If not, a creative itinerary with multiple stopovers like Manila-Guam-Honolulu-Anchorage-Seattle could be interesting.
mushufasa 3y ago
There used to be direct flights on Continental before they were acquired/merged by United
hiidrew 3y ago
Sounds similar to the article's mention of the Jones Act and the issues it causes.

by wayne 3y ago

triceratops 3y ago

Can't you buy 2 separate tickets?

messe 3y ago
The issue then is if you have checked luggage.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  So get your luggage? Deboarding, going through immigration, getting luggage, and going through customs takes no more than 45 minutes at Narita. Give yourself a 2 hour layover to be safe. Or pack like Rick Steves and just bring a backpack with the essentials.
  - pipnonsense 3y ago
    I don't think they ever meant it's impossible to get there, just unnecessarily difficult (or expensive) due to a regulation that is bring unnecessary hassle (which is exactly what you are describing, but, somehow, using a tone that it's something smooth).
  - reillyse 3y ago
    A backpack and a production crew :)
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    You don’t need to go through immigration at Narita if you are just transferring planes at the airport.
    - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
      You don't get a transfer if you've bought two separate flights. You have to pick up your luggage and put it on the next flight.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        If the airlines have agreements, you can often get your luggage automatically routed to your next flight. I used to do that between Alaska Airlines and Hainan. Not sure if you can get that done in Tokyo, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were actually possible.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    They don't let you check bags right before the plane takes off - AFAIK it's either 30 minutes or an hour before depending on what airline and airport[0] you change at. So a 2 hour layover "to be safe" would at best give you a grand total of 15 minutes to get all the way back to departures, recheck your bags, go through security, the immigration checkpoint, get to your new gate, etc. If there's any delay, you miss your next flight, and the airline will not rebook you because your layover's a self-connection, not an actually ticketed thing. So your Guam trip just became a Japan trip. 3 hours would actually have some safety margin in it for short delays. Personally I don't get how people manage really short connections, and I hear plenty of people getting screwed over because of them. Also, I'm not entirely sure how this works with immigration. The visitor form for Japan asks you about your hotel you plan to stay at - which you won't have since you aren't intending this to become a Japan trip. I have no clue if the immigration officer actually checks that field or if it's purely just for keeping records on tourists. [0] I heard an hour at LAX. This is the same airport that universally refuses to store luggage overnight - a fact that even people in the airport industry don't seem to understand - so perhaps this is just a rule specific to that tire fire of an airport.
yongjik 3y ago
That's going to be at least twice as expensive as one ticket with a layover.
rtpg 3y ago
you can but you're going to pay more in general. There are a lot of pricing rules around layovers that make it cheaper than buying tickets separately (basically to give the airlines flexibility to utilize all their planes).

whalesalad 3y ago

United goes direct from Honolulu

coredog64 3y ago
You can also take the scenic route from HI to RMI to FSM. I can’t think of any reason to hang out in Majuro, but two of the FSM stops are great sightseeing destinations. On Pohnpei you can visit Nan Madol. If you’re into diving, there’s a huge number of Japanese warships sunk near Chuuk.
interrupt21h 3y ago
This. Used for American Samoa...just make damn sure to make your connection. If it's anything like American Samoa, there are only a few flights a week. The smart move is to arrive a day early in Hawaii and spend the night

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

Dude. Just buy two separate round trip tickets.

alistairSH 3y ago
And pray neither is delayed, causing you to miss the next leg.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Just space them out out or even take a couple days to visit Japan. Some airports even have programs where they'll take you on a field trip during your layover
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    These suggestions are cognitive load on the person making the trip. Most people break out in sweats thinking about organizing a trip to begin with, booking something with any complexity or risk is unbearable to them. My parents are both like this.
    - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
      I had a partner like that. Would freak out if I started driving without our destination already in the GPS. I think at least half of travel should be an adventure. Adventures are uncomfortable - but they make the best stories. Nobody has ever said, "Man, remember that time we went on that perfectly planned trip where nothing out of the ordinary happened? How exciting!"
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Sure I remember the adventure in Denver that one time, but we barely made it to the funeral the trip was about, and we missed a lot of time with family. If you just want to travel randomly, then no plan is fine. However we laid out plans can ensure you get to the must sees that are farther from home. Also many close to home things have wierd hours They are open so if you don't plan you won't see them that trip.

r24y 3y ago

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.

CobaltFire 3y ago
My family and I loved our time there (Navy as well). We almost retired there, but my son's health condition(s) precludes that. Space-A is how we flew back during our tour there, and if you know the tricks it work great. If you don't it's a nightmare.
- bigfryo 3y ago
  My father was stationed in Guam for a couple of years during the Korean War but he was in the Navy. And then when I was getting mustered out of the Navy 40 years ago I landed on Guam briefly on a flight out of Kobe Japan, on my way to Hawaii
Aerbil313 3y ago
> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  There is quite a bit of difference between the inconvenience of not having a Target that gets frequent shipments of a wide variety of goods which help ease daily life, and not having the amenities of a 15M person city versus a 1.5M person city. My biggest pain point of remote island life is not having access to a variety of affordable dairy foods.

TulliusCicero 3y ago

I wish we'd get rid of this rule entirely. Just seems like naked protectionism, no? If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.

josephcsible 3y ago
You make it sound like that's a US-specific rule, but there's an equivalent rule in basically every country (with some exceptions, the main one being between EU member states).
- silverpepsi 3y ago
  Two wrongs don't make a right?
  - maxcan 3y ago
    No, but they often add up to a stable Nash equilibrium.
fransje26 3y ago
It's better than that. Those are IATA rules, and IATA has been functioning as a cartel more or less since it has been founded..
- realityking 3y ago
  They‘re actually defined by ICAO, a UN agency with states as members. And the actual restrictions are of course a matter of domestic legislation stemming out countries sovereignty over their airspace. These restrictions largely don‘t exist among European Union member states and between Australia and New Zealand. IATAs cartel like behavior was due to them regulating airline prices and services. This started at a time when governments where still regulating domestic prices thinking that competition on price or service would lead to cutting corners on safety.
zoky 3y ago

jlmorton 3y ago

> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement. There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.
- jlmorton 3y ago
  Nevertheless, notice the other example I gave is a United flight originating in Honolulu, Hawaii, transiting Micronesia, and ending in Guam. It’s the same rule.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    That is an American airline flight that starts and ends in the US, therefore complying with the rule.
    - jlmorton 3y ago
      The rule is simply that foreign-owned airlines can’t fly point-to-point routes between US destinations. I’m in Chicago, and I can book a Korean Air, non-codeshare ORD-ICN-GUM right now. You can find it on Kayak.
      - mjg59 3y ago
        Kayak may offer it, but if you try to book that on the Korean Air website you get: "This is based on the regulations of the U.S. Department of Transportation and you cannot make a reservation for an itinerary from the mainland U.S. to Guam (GUM) via a third country" The rule is not that foreign-owned airlines can't fly point-to-point routes between US destinations - Air Canada can't sell SFO→JFK via Toronto, for instance. You may somehow be able to cause something to be ticketed, but that doesn't mean that you'd be able to check in.

smcin 3y ago

Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and: Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge") So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific? [0]: "Guam replaces Honolulu as stop for PAL flights" https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-replaces-honolulu-stop-pal-flights https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-re... [1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW) [2]: discussed on https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-technical-stop-guam.html https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-techni... I'm sure Gordon Lightfoot (RIP) could have sung about treaties...

throwaway742 3y ago
What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?
- smcin 3y ago
  I'm sure they'd treat you locally (I wonder if air-rage cases get dropped there unscheduled, too, although I don't think so). It's not like the border is hermetically sealed; just disembarking on those particular flights is not available to passengers or skiplaggers. (To be clear, that's because it's a non-US (Philippine Airlines) flight on a technical stopover in a US territory (Guam)). The limitation is purely legal. The airline treaties distort pricing and competition, otherwise it should be possible to do a 24/48h stopover in Guam, Taipei etc., and even lower your overall ticket price if you're flexible about dates. If not, a creative itinerary with multiple stopovers like Manila-Guam-Honolulu-Anchorage-Seattle could be interesting.

mushufasa 3y ago

There used to be direct flights on Continental before they were acquired/merged by United

hiidrew 3y ago

Sounds similar to the article's mention of the Jones Act and the issues it causes.