14 ms·

I'm sorry to be cynical here but all this is good only in theory or in a blog article. Real life is much different. Let me articulate. 1. There are many more s

I'm sorry to be cynical here but all this is good only in theory or in a blog article. Real life is much different. Let me articulate. 1. There are many more sr mgr/director+ positions than sr. staff+ 2. Corporate politics is brutal and a seasoned mgr is adept at it. Unfortunately, the sooner you get better at it the better for your career. This is one of the reasons why a seasoned director will always be able to command a much bigger scope than sr. staff+. 3. The bar for rising in the IC ladder is astronomically higher than that for mgmt ladder. 4. And let's not forget interviews. Management interviews are much easier than ICs. (think leetcode). 5. Last but not the least, even in big tech companies (FAANGM or whatever acronym) you should really measure how many of sr. staff+ folks became sr. staff+ after a stint in mgmt. They used mgmt to catapult their career after seeing stagnation/difficulty of moving up as an IC. You would be surprised how many of these very senior ICs have had mgmt careers for several years before. It's easy to extol the virtues of being an IC once you've reached there but no one sees how they got there :-). Now, don't get me wrong. There are some companies/orgs/teams where higher ICs are valued much more and do better than mgrs but it's really the minority. It's in your best interest to switch to mgmt after 8-10 yrs of IC career (8-10 yrs is sufficient enough to gain a solid footing in tech) and learn the ropes fast. I waited for 18 yrs and can see the difference.

nine_zeros 3y ago
There is a lot of reality in this post. Sadly, ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. A manager path is just a chiller life. No leetcode interviews, performance review is focused on hiring/firing/delivery rather than actual product building, maintenance etc. Managers create arbitrary processes for their team just to show to their bosses that they are doing something important. Managers also scapegoat ICs when their policies fail. It's a wild paradox. Companies want ICs, to develop and maintain but the corporate ladder is designed to favor/give power to managers. Wild!
- eclectic29 3y ago
  The important thing is to learn to play the same game your company plays (whether it's IC or mgmt) and start learning the mgmt ropes soon.
  - sfn42 3y ago
    I just write code for the highest bidder. I'm not interested in management, I studied software development because that's what I want to do. If my company doesn't pay me competitive rates to do what I'm good at I'll go do it elsewhere. I don't see any reason to stop doing what I'm good at. I certainly don't see any reason why anyone should pay me more to do something I'm probably not good at.
- jghn 3y ago
  > A manager path is just a chiller life. As someone who has done both multiple times each, this statement comes off as someone who hasn't spent time in management. My stress levels are always much lower when I'm an IC. Even when I'm a high level IC. My blood pressure levels drop when I'm an IC. etc etc etc. This is not to say that everything about being a manager is harder than being an IC. Not at all. But they're just not directly comparable the way you're doing here. They require completely different skillsets, and come with different challenges. For me, it turns out that the hard parts of manager life stress me out, big time. Thus I prefer IC work.
  - FlyingSnake 3y ago
    Exactly this. OP probably has not seen the grind of middle management and the stress that comes with it. They don’t call it manager-IC pendulum for nothing.
  - akamia 3y ago
    I'm in the process of transitioning back to an IC role from a management position and that was one of the biggest factors. As a manager, the level of stress I felt just became unbearable. I'm wrapping up my management responsibilities right now but just knowing that I'll be back to IC work soon and won't have that management stress has had a huge positive impact on my daily life.
    - mattchamb 3y ago
      I am 2 weeks back as an IC after 3 years of management, so I went through the same thing. Take it slowly, youll have some management instincts that are hard to kick. I am really enjoying logging off and being uncontactable at the end of the day.
      - akamia 3y ago
        That's super helpful to hear. I'm also making the move after 3 years in management. Being able to be done at the end of the day is something I'm really looking forward to but it's going to take some time to get back into that mindset. As a manager, I felt like I was always on.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  Who defines the corporate ladder and decides who moves up it? Managers. Obviously it's going to be designed in the way that works best for them.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    This and the parent thread sound kind of simplistic. In any non-trivial-size company, there are many managers, and the space on top is always limited. So lower and mid-levels have to compete with each other for that limited space, they can always be undercut, left behind over an outside hire, end up on a crappy project by bad luck, end up with a bad boss or the opposite, a team of incompetent ICs who fail to deliver while there is only so much a manager can do. Always have to beg for adequate resources and overall be at the mercy of a large number of random people. Saying that it's disneyland designed for easy promotions doesn't... really sound correct?
- claudiulodro 3y ago
  Let's switch industries for a more objective perspective: Does a general contractor have a chiller life than a framer? In some ways, sure, they don't have to climb ladders hauling 2x6s in the rain, however I don't think the framer would be more relaxed if they were dealing with permitting offices, sourcing reliable subcontractors, estimating and collecting payments from clients, etc. rather than framing. They're both necessary roles for large-scale projects.
- vkou 3y ago
  > ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. > A manager path is just a chiller life. Not quite correct. Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. When your immediate manager is at that point, they will absolutely twist your thumbs off, rather than have your failures be reflected on him. They aren't interested in your excuses, because their boss isn't interested in theirs. And if you aren't high up in management seniority, you still be standing in line to get a bucket of shit dumped on you (courtesy of the management fight I've described above), but it's also your responsibility to shield your team from it. How you do it is up to you, have fun. :) ... And once you've cleaned yourself and your team off, and think 'Gosh, that was bad, but hey, at least I survived getting through that messy place in the line', you'll discover that the line is actually circular.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    > Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. Guess whose fault it becomes once the line manager is being blamed from above.
    - vkou 3y ago
      He can blame you all he wants, but firing you is unlikely to ship whatever he wants faster.
      - nine_zeros 3y ago
        I still get fired, despite having done nothing wrong. The company doesn't want engineers fired for BS reasons. Only the manager wants it. Management games are detrimental to innovation.
c7b 3y ago
You didn't once mention creating better products/services for customers, fostering an enjoyable work environment or even creating value for shareholders. Your whole argument is about (a very narrow Machiavellian view of) individual career progression. If it makes the company less attractive to types who think like that, that sounds overall good to me. Seems like that's also what they were aiming for, and with some success, judging from the interview (which is of course a marketing piece, so to be taken with the right amounts of salt).
- boondoggle16 3y ago
  >a very narrow Machiavellian view A very narrow view which is adopted by the vast majority of managers and successful salespeople. Otherwise, why did they get to become manager? > If it makes the company less attractive to types who think like that Not at all... this article is supposed to attract eager, naive kids who will work their butts off for little reward. Machiavellians will find an easier time of becoming manager at this company. Staff positions are super limited, but the "possibility" reduces competition for management positions.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    > Not at all... this article is supposed to attract eager, naive kids who will work their butts off for little reward. I suppose for a company that's better than attracting managers who work their butts off to do nothing but enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else? It just depends on who really holds the power at the company - the people who want a return on investment (the company to succeed), or the people who want to extract as much value from the company for themselves (the execs). When companies start making decisions left and right that don't make any sense - it's not because execs are morons. It's because things are working as intended, and the execs are extracting value for themselves at the expense of everything else.
    - ironmagma 3y ago
      I used to think execs were morons. Now, I realize they're just evil. Hanlon's razor is a bit overrated.
OJFord 3y ago
This 'theory or blog article' is about one of your 'some companies' though, the interviewee is the.. I can't remember, CTO or something, it's not a vacuous 'this is how I think you should behave wherever you work', it's saying 'this is how we work [and slightly a hiring pitch on that basis]'.
FlyingSnake 3y ago
> Management interviews are much easier than ICs. (think leetcode) And the ICs themselves are to be blamed for encouraging and fostering such ridiculous processes.
- wintogreen74 3y ago
  maybe any given interview is harder for a technical IC, but IME you go through a far more rigorous process for senior management.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    What do you mean by rigorous. In my experience the hiring process might be longer, but if anything it’s much less rigorous.
mandeepj 3y ago
> Management interviews are much easier than ICs. You'd think so, but it's not. During mgmt interviews, you have to show how did you rally your team and had impact. It's much easier to rally yourself (think leetcode) than rally 6 other people.
- jacques_chester 3y ago
  > It's much easier to rally yourself (think leetcode) than rally 6 other people. For me at least this hasn't been true.
- mrburkins 3y ago
  But there’s no test suite that fails for a story about rallying 6 others, or having impact all of which cannot be verified and thus easily embellished - leetcode, and subsequently your candidacy, either passes the bar or it doesn’t.
- dimal 3y ago
  I don’t know. For staff engineer interviews I’ve been on, they seem to want technical proficiency and team leadership. They want the full package.
tiffanyh 3y ago
> "There are many more sr mgr/director+ positions than sr. staff+" Your points seems be based on the assumption there's more people managers than IC's. I'm not certain that is accurate (or at least accurate at a well operated company).
- zeroxfe 3y ago
  That's not what they're saying. At the lower and mid levels, there are far more ICs than managers. At the top levels, there are more managers than ICs (at each level.) This is the case in most major tech companies I've seen.
- tikhonj 3y ago
  More people managers at a sufficiently high level. It's not that there are more managers than junior/mid/senior engineers, it's that there are more senior managers/directors than there are senior staff/principal engineers. At least at big tech companies, I understand that this is just true and by several multiples at that. So there would be several times more directors than principal engineers at Google, which are the two relevant roles at the same level (L8).
sfn42 3y ago
What's IC supposed to mean?
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  Integrated Circuit
- macromagnon 3y ago
  Individual Contributor.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- minorninth 3y ago
  Individual Contributor. A general-purpose word that means you're not a manager.
  - sfn42 3y ago
    Thanks
moomoo11 3y ago
I’d rather start my own company which is what I’m doing. Absolutely hate corporate politics when I have not enough equity to put that much effort in.
hypnotechno9a 3y ago
You are talking about engineering IC's. The article is talking about Product Manager ICs which is far less complex to handle in an organization.
darth_avocado 3y ago
> Bar for rising in the IC ladder is astronomically higher than climbing in a mgmt ladder This is the root of all evil. Just getting from Sr -> Staff Engineer is not only a product of skill and experience, but also what problem you are working on, how many ICs exist on the team/org at your level, what opportunities exist in your org and much more. When a staff engineer leaves a company, the probability of a senior engineer getting promoted is the same as an external hire getting the spot. When a senior manager leaves, one of the other managers gets a promotion almost every time. In management you can just hire enough people under you to automatically climb the corporate ladder. Management often rewards inefficiency whereas as an IC you get punished for it.
nhumrich 3y ago
> There are many more mgr/director positions Not only this, but management levels is pretty well recognized across the industry. The titles themselves might not be the same, but where you fit in is. High level engineering positions is not that way. It often can depend a lot on your experience with the company and not necessarily tech in general. You could be a staff engineer one place, and {bigCo} just decides based on one person during the interview that you should only be an SDE 2 during the interview. So often, the non management track leads you stuck without options other than being "downleveled" and taking a demotion to leave.
icedchai 3y ago
The higher the position, the easier the interview. My interview for a CxO-level position at an early stage company was one of the easiest in my life (and I got the job offer.) I was stupid to take the position. After several years, I realized I dislike managing people and dealing with corporate politics, so I went back to a "staff+" job. In general, most companies do not value higher level ICs, including the one I'm at now. But I don't like going to meetings all day, so what am I to do?

nine_zeros 3y ago

There is a lot of reality in this post. Sadly, ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. A manager path is just a chiller life. No leetcode interviews, performance review is focused on hiring/firing/delivery rather than actual product building, maintenance etc. Managers create arbitrary processes for their team just to show to their bosses that they are doing something important. Managers also scapegoat ICs when their policies fail. It's a wild paradox. Companies want ICs, to develop and maintain but the corporate ladder is designed to favor/give power to managers. Wild!

eclectic29 3y ago
The important thing is to learn to play the same game your company plays (whether it's IC or mgmt) and start learning the mgmt ropes soon.
- sfn42 3y ago
  I just write code for the highest bidder. I'm not interested in management, I studied software development because that's what I want to do. If my company doesn't pay me competitive rates to do what I'm good at I'll go do it elsewhere. I don't see any reason to stop doing what I'm good at. I certainly don't see any reason why anyone should pay me more to do something I'm probably not good at.
jghn 3y ago
> A manager path is just a chiller life. As someone who has done both multiple times each, this statement comes off as someone who hasn't spent time in management. My stress levels are always much lower when I'm an IC. Even when I'm a high level IC. My blood pressure levels drop when I'm an IC. etc etc etc. This is not to say that everything about being a manager is harder than being an IC. Not at all. But they're just not directly comparable the way you're doing here. They require completely different skillsets, and come with different challenges. For me, it turns out that the hard parts of manager life stress me out, big time. Thus I prefer IC work.
- FlyingSnake 3y ago
  Exactly this. OP probably has not seen the grind of middle management and the stress that comes with it. They don’t call it manager-IC pendulum for nothing.
- akamia 3y ago
  I'm in the process of transitioning back to an IC role from a management position and that was one of the biggest factors. As a manager, the level of stress I felt just became unbearable. I'm wrapping up my management responsibilities right now but just knowing that I'll be back to IC work soon and won't have that management stress has had a huge positive impact on my daily life.
  - mattchamb 3y ago
    I am 2 weeks back as an IC after 3 years of management, so I went through the same thing. Take it slowly, youll have some management instincts that are hard to kick. I am really enjoying logging off and being uncontactable at the end of the day.
    - akamia 3y ago
      That's super helpful to hear. I'm also making the move after 3 years in management. Being able to be done at the end of the day is something I'm really looking forward to but it's going to take some time to get back into that mindset. As a manager, I felt like I was always on.
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
Who defines the corporate ladder and decides who moves up it? Managers. Obviously it's going to be designed in the way that works best for them.
- twelve40 3y ago
  This and the parent thread sound kind of simplistic. In any non-trivial-size company, there are many managers, and the space on top is always limited. So lower and mid-levels have to compete with each other for that limited space, they can always be undercut, left behind over an outside hire, end up on a crappy project by bad luck, end up with a bad boss or the opposite, a team of incompetent ICs who fail to deliver while there is only so much a manager can do. Always have to beg for adequate resources and overall be at the mercy of a large number of random people. Saying that it's disneyland designed for easy promotions doesn't... really sound correct?
claudiulodro 3y ago
Let's switch industries for a more objective perspective: Does a general contractor have a chiller life than a framer? In some ways, sure, they don't have to climb ladders hauling 2x6s in the rain, however I don't think the framer would be more relaxed if they were dealing with permitting offices, sourcing reliable subcontractors, estimating and collecting payments from clients, etc. rather than framing. They're both necessary roles for large-scale projects.
vkou 3y ago
> ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. > A manager path is just a chiller life. Not quite correct. Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. When your immediate manager is at that point, they will absolutely twist your thumbs off, rather than have your failures be reflected on him. They aren't interested in your excuses, because their boss isn't interested in theirs. And if you aren't high up in management seniority, you still be standing in line to get a bucket of shit dumped on you (courtesy of the management fight I've described above), but it's also your responsibility to shield your team from it. How you do it is up to you, have fun. :) ... And once you've cleaned yourself and your team off, and think 'Gosh, that was bad, but hey, at least I survived getting through that messy place in the line', you'll discover that the line is actually circular.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  > Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. Guess whose fault it becomes once the line manager is being blamed from above.
  - vkou 3y ago
    He can blame you all he wants, but firing you is unlikely to ship whatever he wants faster.
    - nine_zeros 3y ago
      I still get fired, despite having done nothing wrong. The company doesn't want engineers fired for BS reasons. Only the manager wants it. Management games are detrimental to innovation.

c7b 3y ago

You didn't once mention creating better products/services for customers, fostering an enjoyable work environment or even creating value for shareholders. Your whole argument is about (a very narrow Machiavellian view of) individual career progression. If it makes the company less attractive to types who think like that, that sounds overall good to me. Seems like that's also what they were aiming for, and with some success, judging from the interview (which is of course a marketing piece, so to be taken with the right amounts of salt).

boondoggle16 3y ago
>a very narrow Machiavellian view A very narrow view which is adopted by the vast majority of managers and successful salespeople. Otherwise, why did they get to become manager? > If it makes the company less attractive to types who think like that Not at all... this article is supposed to attract eager, naive kids who will work their butts off for little reward. Machiavellians will find an easier time of becoming manager at this company. Staff positions are super limited, but the "possibility" reduces competition for management positions.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  > Not at all... this article is supposed to attract eager, naive kids who will work their butts off for little reward. I suppose for a company that's better than attracting managers who work their butts off to do nothing but enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else? It just depends on who really holds the power at the company - the people who want a return on investment (the company to succeed), or the people who want to extract as much value from the company for themselves (the execs). When companies start making decisions left and right that don't make any sense - it's not because execs are morons. It's because things are working as intended, and the execs are extracting value for themselves at the expense of everything else.
  - ironmagma 3y ago
    I used to think execs were morons. Now, I realize they're just evil. Hanlon's razor is a bit overrated.

OJFord 3y ago

This 'theory or blog article' is about one of your 'some companies' though, the interviewee is the.. I can't remember, CTO or something, it's not a vacuous 'this is how I think you should behave wherever you work', it's saying 'this is how we work [and slightly a hiring pitch on that basis]'.

FlyingSnake 3y ago

> Management interviews are much easier than ICs. (think leetcode) And the ICs themselves are to be blamed for encouraging and fostering such ridiculous processes.

wintogreen74 3y ago
maybe any given interview is harder for a technical IC, but IME you go through a far more rigorous process for senior management.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  What do you mean by rigorous. In my experience the hiring process might be longer, but if anything it’s much less rigorous.

mandeepj 3y ago

> Management interviews are much easier than ICs. You'd think so, but it's not. During mgmt interviews, you have to show how did you rally your team and had impact. It's much easier to rally yourself (think leetcode) than rally 6 other people.

jacques_chester 3y ago
> It's much easier to rally yourself (think leetcode) than rally 6 other people. For me at least this hasn't been true.
mrburkins 3y ago
But there’s no test suite that fails for a story about rallying 6 others, or having impact all of which cannot be verified and thus easily embellished - leetcode, and subsequently your candidacy, either passes the bar or it doesn’t.
dimal 3y ago
I don’t know. For staff engineer interviews I’ve been on, they seem to want technical proficiency and team leadership. They want the full package.

tiffanyh 3y ago

> "There are many more sr mgr/director+ positions than sr. staff+" Your points seems be based on the assumption there's more people managers than IC's. I'm not certain that is accurate (or at least accurate at a well operated company).

zeroxfe 3y ago
That's not what they're saying. At the lower and mid levels, there are far more ICs than managers. At the top levels, there are more managers than ICs (at each level.) This is the case in most major tech companies I've seen.
tikhonj 3y ago
More people managers at a sufficiently high level. It's not that there are more managers than junior/mid/senior engineers, it's that there are more senior managers/directors than there are senior staff/principal engineers. At least at big tech companies, I understand that this is just true and by several multiples at that. So there would be several times more directors than principal engineers at Google, which are the two relevant roles at the same level (L8).

sfn42 3y ago

What's IC supposed to mean?

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
Integrated Circuit
macromagnon 3y ago
Individual Contributor.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
minorninth 3y ago
Individual Contributor. A general-purpose word that means you're not a manager.
- sfn42 3y ago
  Thanks

moomoo11 3y ago

I’d rather start my own company which is what I’m doing. Absolutely hate corporate politics when I have not enough equity to put that much effort in.

hypnotechno9a 3y ago

You are talking about engineering IC's. The article is talking about Product Manager ICs which is far less complex to handle in an organization.

darth_avocado 3y ago

> Bar for rising in the IC ladder is astronomically higher than climbing in a mgmt ladder This is the root of all evil. Just getting from Sr -> Staff Engineer is not only a product of skill and experience, but also what problem you are working on, how many ICs exist on the team/org at your level, what opportunities exist in your org and much more. When a staff engineer leaves a company, the probability of a senior engineer getting promoted is the same as an external hire getting the spot. When a senior manager leaves, one of the other managers gets a promotion almost every time. In management you can just hire enough people under you to automatically climb the corporate ladder. Management often rewards inefficiency whereas as an IC you get punished for it.

nhumrich 3y ago

> There are many more mgr/director positions Not only this, but management levels is pretty well recognized across the industry. The titles themselves might not be the same, but where you fit in is. High level engineering positions is not that way. It often can depend a lot on your experience with the company and not necessarily tech in general. You could be a staff engineer one place, and {bigCo} just decides based on one person during the interview that you should only be an SDE 2 during the interview. So often, the non management track leads you stuck without options other than being "downleveled" and taking a demotion to leave.

icedchai 3y ago

The higher the position, the easier the interview. My interview for a CxO-level position at an early stage company was one of the easiest in my life (and I got the job offer.) I was stupid to take the position. After several years, I realized I dislike managing people and dealing with corporate politics, so I went back to a "staff+" job. In general, most companies do not value higher level ICs, including the one I'm at now. But I don't like going to meetings all day, so what am I to do?