17 ms·
Guam: The America that Americans forget
- zippyseve78 3y ago[dead]
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- kolencherry 3y agohttps://archive.is/FjGj3 https://archive.is/FjGj3
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- mc32 3y agoAh, yes, the island that could capsize, if we load it up with too much materiel, according to a particular US Senator... Guam is like Guantanamo, or Diego Garcia. We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Else all those little island bases would be quiet places like so many other small islands that dot the oceans.
- baggy_trough 3y agoI don't understand why "only" and "and nothing more" are present in that sentence. You don't think strategic projection of power is important?
- sreejithr 3y agoWhat about those islanders though? "Power projection" is important. But it's sad that its at the expense of human beings who live and work there.
- jakear 3y agoThis could be (and has been) said about literally any "first peoples" anywhere. Does something about them being "islanders" change things for you?
- sreejithr 3y agoOh so since we’ve screwed natives before, it’s fine to do it again to islanders? We shouldn’t ask these questions because we’ve done worse anyway?
- jakear 3y agoTalk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.
- eatonphil 3y agoSort of related, the list of Associated states is an interesting rabbit hole to read about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_state
- 29athrowaway 3y agoCGP Grey made a video about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSOQDQvVLU
- deaddodo 3y agoThe territories of the United States are not associated states, but subnational entities (equal to the States in hierarchy, not necessarily political status). The Marshall Islands, Micronesia, etc are free associations.
- justin_kempton 3y ago[flagged]
- kreelman 3y ago...Interesting. Walt Nauta was born in Guam. His experiences might not change the forgetfulness, but nonetheless interesting to see his path into the mainstream of the US legal consciousness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Nauta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Nauta
- soniman 3y agoWho remembers this IBM ad: Farmer 1: "Have you ever been outside the US?" Farmer 2: "Does Guam count?"
- wayne 3y agoThe article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That eliminates all Asian competition and the US airlines get a monopoly even though they barely fly there and many of these flights are codeshares being operated by Asian airlines!
- triceratops 3y agoCan't you buy 2 separate tickets?
- messe 3y agoThe issue then is if you have checked luggage.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y agoSo get your luggage? Deboarding, going through immigration, getting luggage, and going through customs takes no more than 45 minutes at Narita. Give yourself a 2 hour layover to be safe. Or pack like Rick Steves and just bring a backpack with the essentials.
- pipnonsense 3y agoI don't think they ever meant it's impossible to get there, just unnecessarily difficult (or expensive) due to a regulation that is bring unnecessary hassle (which is exactly what you are describing, but, somehow, using a tone that it's something smooth).
- reillyse 3y agoA backpack and a production crew :)
- givemeethekeys 3y agoForgetting what is America is one of the reasons Americans lost the Philippines as a territory.
- calgarymicro 3y agoDid they ever want to keep it? It was my understanding that, as with Mexico following the Mexican American War, many in the US didn't want permanent integration due to racial sentiments; the thought of giving tens of millions of Filipinos US citizenship horrified them.
- r24y 3y agoFor anyone interested: the article mentions “How to Hide an Empire” by Daniel Immerwahr. It's a very well-written and well-researched book -- Immerwahr does a great job creating a narrative from all the historical events in the book. The reason I mention it here is because it goes into detail about Americans' reluctance to grant full citizenship to residents of its overseas territories.
- givemeethekeys 3y agoOrdinary American citizens didn't like the idea of being colonizers, since they had, not long ago, been a colony themselves and fought to free themselves.
- dumpHero2 3y agoOh, they love a part of it. The part where they get the cheap labor, but not the part where they hang around for too long and start asking for human rights.
- skissane 3y ago> Ordinary American citizens didn't like the idea of being colonizers, since they had, not long ago, been a colony themselves and fought to free themselves. Bad comparison: the American Revolution was a group of colonialists rebelling against their colonialist bosses, not a rebellion of the colonised against the coloniser. Indeed, one of the American Revolution’s complaints was that London was too protective of Native American rights, and was limiting its colonies expansion into Native American territories. So rather than an anti-colonialist rebellion, it was a pro-colonialist rebellion
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- ccakes 3y agoGuam is also a pretty large interconnection point for submarine cables. Not too many networks break out to layer 3 there, but more traffic than you’d expect passes through (or at least, used to). https://www.submarinecablemap.com/country/guam https://www.submarinecablemap.com/country/guam
- hyperionplays 3y agoOneQode is breaking out layer 3 in Guam, because of its location. https://www.oneqode.com/guam/ https://www.oneqode.com/guam/
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago> As tensions with China mount, the U.S. military continues to build up Guam and other Pacific territories — placing the burdens of imperial power on the nation’s most ignored and underrepresented citizens. Oh NYT never change. If the country never did, you would bet the NYT would have something like below: > As tensions with China mount, the U.S. military continues to ignore Guam and other Pacific territories — endangering on the nation’s most ignored and underrepresented citizens.
- TMWNN 3y ago[flagged]
- zgluck 3y agoWent digging for what might be the origin of the joke. SAHL BACK IN U.S. WITH MORE BITE (1986) https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-10-09-8603160248-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-10-09-860316... And what is a liberal, according to [Mort] Sahl? Well, he offered a nice definition at one point, saying that if the Reagan-Gorbachev summit broke down and the worst eventually took place, the headline in the Washington Post the next day would read: 'Nuclear Holocaust; World Ends; Women and Minorities Hit Hardest.' ... His real quarrel is with what he sees as the cynical manner in which the American political landscape has been divided up in our time--so that a 'liberal Left' that doesn't deserve the label can engage in self-serving mock combat with a bogyman 'Right.' Or as Sahl puts it, 'The liberals always settle for singing; the Republicans just want to run the banks.'
- postsantum 3y agoOh wow, this even predates the Hillary's "women have always been the primary victims of war" (1998)
- anonym29 3y agoNo taxation without representation. Stop charging the inhabitants for any and all U.S. taxes. Hell, decolonize and let them have their freedom and independence.
- TulliusCicero 3y agoI doubt a majority of Guam residents want independence at this point. Being part of the US is economically useful, compared to being a small independent island. But yeah, statehood would solve the representation issue.
- justahuman74 3y agoCould they join onto another state (Alaska? Hawaii?), Guam's population is very low to have a full 2 senators
- TulliusCicero 3y agoThat doesn't really matter. Alaska had a little over 200k people when it became a state in 1959. Wyoming these days has what, 600k people? Like yeah, the Senate's disproportionate representation is dumb and bad, but that's the system we're stuck with. And Guam is farther from Hawaii than Hawaii is from the US mainland IIRC.
- quickthrower2 3y agoGuam is closer to Sri Lanka than it is to the US mainland, and closer to Australia than it is to Midway. It's pretty far away ha ha!
- codyb 3y agoTalking about proportionality and the Senate is like talking about fine dining and McDonalds. Although, oddly enough it seemed to be a small bulwark _against_ extremism in the last election since you can't gerrymander a Senate race. So that was a pleasant surprise. As a NYer the fact others get 40 times my representation is irksome though.
- TMWNN 3y agoThe usual lies and distortions that we expect from the Times. Just some examples: >In 1893, Americans overthrew the monarchy in Hawaii, then later annexed the island. A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. >a series of Supreme Court rulings called the Insular Cases that began in 1901, five years after the court allowed “separate but equal” segregation" The Insular Cases had absolutely nothing to do with Plessy v. Ferguson. The latter is no longer the law of the land; the former still are. >Though some CHamoru tried to fight the Japanese, the overwhelming narrative holds that American soldiers were the saviors of Guam. Every year on July 21, the island shuts down for the Liberation Day Parade, a grand military procession down Marine Corps Drive to mark the anniversary of Uncle Sam’s return. This and the following paragraph makes it sound like Guam's residents have been brainwashed into thinking that American soldiers were not, in fact, the saviors of Guam. >The country wasn’t colloquially referred to as “America” until 1898. This is so, so, so wrong that I can't even sputter about it. Small islands are either part of bigger countries, or are protected by them. There is no alternative. One does not have to like it to accept it as the only realistic outcome. If Guam were not American, it would today be a Chinese possession with the entirety of its surface area garrisoned. Without the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in the Pacific War, the Japanese rapes of native Guamian women would have continued forever.
- pimlottc 3y ago> A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. The native-born citizens in the Committee of Safety [0] were almost all second and third generation descendants of Americans. No ethnic Hawaiians were members. While the committee was composed of private citizens, they acted with the ultimate goal of annexation with the United States. They were crucially supported by a contingent of US troops that surrounded the palace of the Hawaiian monarchy on the orders of the chief American diplomat, whose interests in annexation aligned with the committee. [1] 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Safety_(Hawaii) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Safety_(Hawaii) 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Ki...
- spicyramen_ 3y ago[dead]
- metaphor 3y agoMaleffa yu ni kostumbren taotao tano, kon todo i lengguahe; mampos Amerikanon pao asu yu pago...and yet any way I looked at it---whether as an ethnic native of the Marianas who grew up with wideband exposure to what definitely seemed like a pronounced bimodal economic distribution; or as a veteran who eagerly and proudly served for a decade; or as an assimilated American who benefits from the resources and opportunities the mainland has to offer---this article managed to stir up some deeply repressed emotions that brutally ripped my heart into three.
- leobabauta 3y agoI'm with you, che'lu.
- emmelaich 3y agoSorta related, Guam is a good place for game servers to have similar pings for Asia, Oceania and USA (sorta) https://www.oneqode.com/guam/ https://www.oneqode.com/guam/
- RileyJames 3y agoYea I recently started hosting a very niche game server in Guam (action quake 2) because of its central location. It’s 95ms from Melbourne, AU, 110ms from Auckland, NZ and about 120ms from west coast US. Central US is probably about 150ms. All of which are very close playable. Living in Australia, as a teen FPS gamer it was always frustrating to know that no matter what tech comes next, the physical distance is the limiting factor. So Guam is a cool workaround. I used oneqode. Really easy, and affordable.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoAction Quake 2, jeez that's a blast from the past. Precursor to counter strike if I recall correctly. RA2 was my jam back in the day, migrating to RA3.
- coufu 3y agoAs someone who grew up in Guam, that’s really interesting to hear the island being used as a workaround for ping times. I was always frustrated getting 100-200ms on games like Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament while everyone in the US had much lower pings. Then again, I was playing on US servers. Maybe if I was privy to people using Guam servers as a workaround to bridge the ping gap in this way, I could have used it to my advantage and had the lowest pings on Guam servers haha. I’d probably still lose though, but at least I wouldn’t be able to blame it on ping time.
- emmelaich 3y agoAlso interesting is Palau: > Politically, Palau is a presidential republic in free association with the United States, which provides defense, funding, and access to social services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau [oops, it's mentioned, nvm]
- deaddodo 3y agoFree association is different than territorial status. Territories are subnational entities (like states), while free associated states are sovereign entities that share some sort of agreement. In the case of the Pacific Islands and the US, free association has to do with military protection and guaranteed sovereignty in exchange for shared military access. It oftentimes takes the place of vassalage or protectorate status, but with equal party station (either party can leave, if they see fit versus the more powerful entity enforcing the situation).
- juanani 3y ago[dead]
- pugworthy 3y agoGreat Radiolab piece a while back entitled, "Americanish" - great listen. It focuses on American Samoa but it perhaps has some bearing on the topic. https://radiolab.org/podcast/americanish https://radiolab.org/podcast/americanish
- cygnusmove 3y agoWas born in Saipan, a smaller island next to Guam. Americans didn’t forget Guam and Northern Mariana Islands. It’s more like Americans were never aware we are part of America to begin with. Hell, I got married in the States recently. My marriage license registration didn’t go through because my birthplace wasn’t a thing in the online application form. My wife had no issue, and she was born in a foreign country.
- sidewndr46 3y agoSounds like fun. They probably ask what country Saipan was part of when you mentioned it too right? I've always wondered if anyone has been born on Palmyra Atoll, would make for fun trying to get documents saying as such
- cygnusmove 3y agoMy wife and I had to take time off from work to go in person to explain. The rep knew exactly what the issue was and fixed it in minute. The problem is always the website and how they implement the address selection for US 50 states, territories, and overseas military addresses. But yes, people will ask where I’m from. I used to explain where I’m from but nowadays I just say I’m from Hawaii to keep intros short.
- dgrabla 3y agoSomewhat related, the hilarious way the US navy conquered Guam from Spain https://halfarsedhistory.net/2022/02/06/episode-189-the-capture-of-guam/ https://halfarsedhistory.net/2022/02/06/episode-189-the-capt...
- keepamovin 3y agoI skydived first time in Guam. Also went to some CrossFit classes when i was there. The people were lovely. There were some weirdos too be sure, mostly in the bars, tho it was fun hanging at the bars with the military personnel. My conclusion: submariners - definite weirdos, "chair force" - cool in a tidy sort of way. Nobody else self-identified! Overwhelmingly most people were awesome and the little island has a great esprit de corps. I really liked it, but there’s not that much to do, besides hanging out with folks and going to various exercises, jet-skiing, beach. OK, there's quite a bit to do, but not as much as living in a larger place. Which is OK. You can make your own fun. There's a couple shooting ranges too if you enjoy that. The Korean tourists certainly enjoyed their fully-automatic weapons when I was there. There’s a strange juxtaposition between poor “local” areas, the luxury brands on the high street catering to Asian tourists, and the regular suburban areas. Clime-wise it's kind of like Singapore. Shopping-wise it's like mainland America, or maybe more like Hawai'i. Complete with sprawling malls, Dairy Queen, iHop, Pizza Hut, in a “tropical pacific” climate. Also, IIRC quite a lot of stray dogs hanging about. This was all pre-pandemic so maybe everything is different nowadays. I was living in Asia at time so flights were a no brainer. Everyone seems to drive giant utility trucks as well. You have to rent some kind of vehicle.
- prmoustache 3y agoMaybe that is because Guam is not in America?
- deaddodo 3y agoIn what way? The territories are as much a part of the US as the states are. They simply have a different status than the states do. I assume you're making some point/remark regarding their status and the political mindfield surrounding it, but that doesn't change their subnational/sovereign situation.
- prmoustache 3y agoI am making that point regarding USA != America. America is a continent, not a country and Guam is not part of it despite being part of the USA. It would be like saying that Bora-Bora or New Caledonia were in Europe. Well no, they are part of France and the European Union, but not Europe. The America/USA ambiguation is very annoying to hear or even considered rude/insulting for most america inhabitants outside of the USA.
- deaddodo 3y agoI'm well aware of it's political decisiveness in LATAM, but it's pretty clear the context here is the colloquial usage in English; despite your personal feelings.
- prmoustache 3y agoWell, US people are prompt to point finger at the rest of the world and tell them how they should treat/call other peoples in order to not hurt them, so I think it is valid from non US people to tell US people to also fix their colloquial usage if it is rude towards other nations. Also colloquial doesn't mean universal. You know, putting your own house in order and stuff like that.
- deaddodo 3y ago
- chaostheory 3y agoThis is one of many news stories that seem to be preparing the masses for potential war with China.
- stareatgoats 3y agoGive peace a chance. Just sayin.
- user6723 3y agoI refueled in Guam a couple times. Five stars. Would refuel there again.
- thret 3y agoIf you do visit Guam, I recommend making the effort to visit Tinian. The North Field is well worth it.
- fishywang 3y agoI visited Guam back in 2014 to empty my UA miles as China-Guam used to be a sweet spot for UA miles redemption back then. I actually got trouble entering Guam because back then I was on L1 visa, which only allows me to enter the US for work, and my employer does not have any office at Guam and I don't have a connection from Guam to US mainland. After being held at the airport for hours (I believe they called my hotel for verification) they finally stamped a parole on my passport and let me in.
- leobabauta 3y agoI'm from Guam, and half Chamoru. Most of the comments in this thread show the ignorance that this article is pointing out — Americans don't understand the situation in Guam, because they've never had to really pay attention. Guam is a U.S. colony that has benefitted from the U.S., but has also been overrun by Americans and people from Asia, so that Chamorus are now a minority on the island. We've long wanted to have a vote to decolonize, but this has been blocked by Americans on the island who demand to have a vote in a matter that should be up to the Chamorus. As a result of blocking decolonization, we have been impacted greatly: * Big military bases have brought a militarized mindset to the residents. * Those bases were taken without asking or recompense, and drive up land prices, which drives up the price of everything else. * The U.S. has protected U.S. corporations from competition (Jones Act, etc) which drives up the prices as well. * The U.S. has set immigration policies to benefit itself, leading to a flood of immigrants who the U.S. doesn't pay for (healthcare, education). * U.S. corporations have taken over commerce (think big box stores and chain restaurants), leading to a loss of the local culture. * Guam residents are mostly in poverty, undereducated, with terrible health. You could argue that it's our own fault, but the U.S.'s unthinking impact has created a system that leads to these results. There's a lot more to this — it's an incredibly deep topic — but I thought there should be a voice here from someone who understands the issues.
- YellOh 3y agoI have no particular opinion on Guam or its governance, but if Chamorus are a minority of the people living there (& a minority of the people born there?) it feels kind of unfair for them to unilaterally make major decisions and remove the majority group from the area. Ex. obviously what American settlers did to mainland Natives was heinous and should not have happened, but it's less clear that Natives of the current generation should be able to unilaterally vote to remove Americans that are born here now. Is there a dissimilarity with Guam I'm missing?
- leobabauta 3y agoGuam is the homeland of the Chamorus, and it was taken from us by the Americans. For them to say they should vote on what should be done with it seems more unfair. We're a minority because of American action, not by choice.
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