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> apps could not require users to have “an account” in order to run There is some big qualification missing or I don't understand what does that even mean. How

> apps could not require users to have “an account” in order to run There is some big qualification missing or I don't understand what does that even mean. How could a banking app run without an account? An online game? The Twitter app nowadays? Dropbox/Nextcloud/...? Etc. Yeah, I agree that for a lot of apps, requiring a account is just a marketing gimmick, but I don't think such a general rule could work.

EA-3167 3y ago
Perhaps the standard should be, "If you are required to have an account to use this service, on or off the app, then you can require it on the app." For context that would mean that to browse a site like Hacker News, you couldn't require an account, but to post you could. It covers things like Banks or Steam, etc. Would that be workable?
- freedomben 3y ago
  That seems like a great policy to me. I bought a guitar tuner app in the past and that's exactly and all it did: act as a tuner. But it then got acquired by a company that sells guitar lessons and other things, and they completely f-ed up the app and it requires an account and a subscription now if you want to tune your guitar. Fortunately there are other options in the Play Store, but I paid like $15 or $20 for it at some point. This tempts me at a side comment about why I hate automatic updates, but I'll refrain. Luckily it was Android so I was able to backup the APK before they ruined the app, and I sideload it now. Along with old Pocket Casts, Audible, and a couple of others.
  - mfashby 3y ago
    Was that DaTuner? I got really annoyed by that too.
  - jddj 3y ago
    I only go to F-droid for these utility apps. Guitar tuners, flashlights, QR scanners, etc. Open source hobby-sized projects which are done when they're done.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      This is a terrific strategy! I'm going to do exactly this. Thanks for sharing.
      - mfashby 3y ago
        Cythara on f-droid for guitar tuning!
jadbox 3y ago
There are many exceptions to the rule with Apple's policies. I knew a few app developers that could skirt many of the official rules, because they had friends that worked for Apple.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  I cannot wait for the DMA to take effect early next year so I can install ANY other app store.
- lilyball 3y ago
  They’re lying to you then, because “friends that work for Apple” have no say in the App review process.
ryandrake 3y ago
Good question! We actually asked Apple exactly this when appealing the AppStore de-listing. How come others can require an account and we can't? What was it about our app that made us have to spend the engineering effort to add a guest login (this was a disingenuous argument that I advised against, since we deliberately spent engineering effort to require the login)? Their response, not the exact wording since it was over a decade ago, was along the lines of: "1. We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant. 2. Your app core use case clearly functions without an account as evidenced by the previous versions having full functionality not requiring an account." 1. Is a standard Apple reply when you compare your app's treatment to others'. Everyone gets this when they bring another developer's app into the argument. 2. Called our bluff and is pretty hard to argue against unless we changed something core to our backend such that it now requires an account. Even if that was the case, I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Throughout the whole exchange with Apple, I had to be Devil's Advocate, since I advised against the change to require an account from the start, being apparently the only person in the company who had actually read the AppStore guidelines. Nobody listened to me, of course.
- immibis 3y ago
  Apple used COMMON SENSE? That's incredible. Google would never do that
  - phreack 3y ago
    Keep in mind GP mentioned this was over a decade ago. Common sense is way less likely to exist at scale.
- floomk 3y ago
  > We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit.
kilolima 3y ago
For example, Gaia Maps. It's just a navigation app using publicly funded USGS or crowd sourced base maps, but by switching over to a user account requirement, they can con people into paying a monthly subscription for map "updates". If you're going to rip people off with "software as a service" then you need to require an account.
- newaccount74 3y ago
  Just because maps are based on public data doesn't mean that making them doesn't cost money.
avar 3y ago
> How could a banking app run without an account? I use two banking apps that have a FAQ feature that's just a fancy wrapper for their respective online knowledge bases. It's only due to laziness on their part that the entire app needs a login. Even if the only thing I'd like to do is browse the knowledge base. Similarly, you shouldn't need to be logged in to queue up an arbitrary number of transactions. To execute them sure, but every banking app I've tried makes you login from the outset for no discernible reason.
- jollygoodshow 3y ago
  How do you nominate which account to 'queue' up those transactions against? And what benefit does not logging in have when you have to login anyway to do actually do something? I'd rather everything be kept (relatively) secret and secure
kccqzy 3y ago
You are not creative enough. A banking app can run without an account by showing you interest rates for deposits and mortgages, and show you a map of their branch locations. An online game can run without an account by showing you a tutorial and videos of other people playing the game. The Twitter app should show you tweets without an account.
RajT88 3y ago
Many online games do not require an account. Ones that do not store things like level progression or inventory between play sessions. You need an account for WoW, but not Unreal Tournament, to use 90's examples.

EA-3167 3y ago

Perhaps the standard should be, "If you are required to have an account to use this service, on or off the app, then you can require it on the app." For context that would mean that to browse a site like Hacker News, you couldn't require an account, but to post you could. It covers things like Banks or Steam, etc. Would that be workable?

freedomben 3y ago
That seems like a great policy to me. I bought a guitar tuner app in the past and that's exactly and all it did: act as a tuner. But it then got acquired by a company that sells guitar lessons and other things, and they completely f-ed up the app and it requires an account and a subscription now if you want to tune your guitar. Fortunately there are other options in the Play Store, but I paid like $15 or $20 for it at some point. This tempts me at a side comment about why I hate automatic updates, but I'll refrain. Luckily it was Android so I was able to backup the APK before they ruined the app, and I sideload it now. Along with old Pocket Casts, Audible, and a couple of others.
- mfashby 3y ago
  Was that DaTuner? I got really annoyed by that too.
- jddj 3y ago
  I only go to F-droid for these utility apps. Guitar tuners, flashlights, QR scanners, etc. Open source hobby-sized projects which are done when they're done.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    This is a terrific strategy! I'm going to do exactly this. Thanks for sharing.
    - mfashby 3y ago
      Cythara on f-droid for guitar tuning!

jadbox 3y ago

There are many exceptions to the rule with Apple's policies. I knew a few app developers that could skirt many of the official rules, because they had friends that worked for Apple.

Gareth321 3y ago
I cannot wait for the DMA to take effect early next year so I can install ANY other app store.
lilyball 3y ago
They’re lying to you then, because “friends that work for Apple” have no say in the App review process.

ryandrake 3y ago

Good question! We actually asked Apple exactly this when appealing the AppStore de-listing. How come others can require an account and we can't? What was it about our app that made us have to spend the engineering effort to add a guest login (this was a disingenuous argument that I advised against, since we deliberately spent engineering effort to require the login)? Their response, not the exact wording since it was over a decade ago, was along the lines of: "1. We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant. 2. Your app core use case clearly functions without an account as evidenced by the previous versions having full functionality not requiring an account." 1. Is a standard Apple reply when you compare your app's treatment to others'. Everyone gets this when they bring another developer's app into the argument. 2. Called our bluff and is pretty hard to argue against unless we changed something core to our backend such that it now requires an account. Even if that was the case, I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Throughout the whole exchange with Apple, I had to be Devil's Advocate, since I advised against the change to require an account from the start, being apparently the only person in the company who had actually read the AppStore guidelines. Nobody listened to me, of course.

immibis 3y ago
Apple used COMMON SENSE? That's incredible. Google would never do that
- phreack 3y ago
  Keep in mind GP mentioned this was over a decade ago. Common sense is way less likely to exist at scale.
floomk 3y ago
> We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit.

kilolima 3y ago

For example, Gaia Maps. It's just a navigation app using publicly funded USGS or crowd sourced base maps, but by switching over to a user account requirement, they can con people into paying a monthly subscription for map "updates". If you're going to rip people off with "software as a service" then you need to require an account.

newaccount74 3y ago
Just because maps are based on public data doesn't mean that making them doesn't cost money.

avar 3y ago

> How could a banking app run without an account? I use two banking apps that have a FAQ feature that's just a fancy wrapper for their respective online knowledge bases. It's only due to laziness on their part that the entire app needs a login. Even if the only thing I'd like to do is browse the knowledge base. Similarly, you shouldn't need to be logged in to queue up an arbitrary number of transactions. To execute them sure, but every banking app I've tried makes you login from the outset for no discernible reason.

jollygoodshow 3y ago
How do you nominate which account to 'queue' up those transactions against? And what benefit does not logging in have when you have to login anyway to do actually do something? I'd rather everything be kept (relatively) secret and secure

kccqzy 3y ago

You are not creative enough. A banking app can run without an account by showing you interest rates for deposits and mortgages, and show you a map of their branch locations. An online game can run without an account by showing you a tutorial and videos of other people playing the game. The Twitter app should show you tweets without an account.

RajT88 3y ago

Many online games do not require an account. Ones that do not store things like level progression or inventory between play sessions. You need an account for WoW, but not Unreal Tournament, to use 90's examples.