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French Assembly to allow remote police surveillance via phone cameras and mics

116 points by mysterypie 3y ago

mock-possum 3y ago
Man are they really going to go through with this?? I’m not even sure what I would do if I was in that situation, where my own government decided it was okay to spy on everyone that way. I’d probably be eying the nearest border.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
  The US could already do that more more than 20 years already, it's nothing new, they are just catching up, crime these days is very well organized and tech savvy, they have to adapt somehow
  - DarkmSparks 3y ago
    They all can and already do it afaik. This is just "allowing" them to actually use what gets collected in court instead of having to do so much parallel construction to pretend they can't.
  - dgan 3y ago
    Just because your neighbour is doing morally questionable acts, doesn't mean you are getting carte blanche for you. So your first argument doesn't hold. Your second argument might hold but you are not providing anything. I reject the premise that criminals are more tech savvy than regular citizens. I would be more likely to support this law if somehow i was proved it wouldn't be used against peaceful ecologists and Macron protesters.
    - WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
      I'm not saying that All I'm saying is before you complain about your neighbor, clean your own house
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    You in twenty years: “China could already do social scoring more more than 20 years already, it's nothing new, they are just catching up, crime these days is very well organized and tech savvy, they have to adapt somehow”
    - ImHereToVote 3y ago
      You do have a social score if you live in the US. Your credit score is a score on how well you fit as a cog into capitalist society.
      - jonathanstrange 3y ago
        I never understood why Americans are so willing to make debts. The last time I was in debt with my bank is 20 years ago when I was a student and the maximum was 400 Euro.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        Some people like to have a fixed place to live…
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  After a quick chat with regular (non-tech) people, they're fine with it. The main reason being that "they can't just do that, they need a judge to sign off on it". They do seem a bit unsurprised that the politicians carved out an exception for themselves ("of course they did"). People here still seem to have faith that the institutions generally work as intended.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    No, the politicians and the state have just isolated themselves effectively enough from the riots. The riots are the only thing people can do to protest a number of measures, most seriously the changes to the pensions. These riots (and "riots", not all are violent, and I haven't heard at all of these rioters damaging people) don't affect the state much, but they affect regular people plenty. Torched cars. Destroyed shops. Nonfunctioning services. Police stations are now fortresses, as are most of the government departments. The state has made a definite choice: the hard hand, no help, and absolute priority to their own protection. Normal crime, like theft from stores, what people want the state to work on, is not even prosecuted anymore. You'd have to steal from a big store, in the city center, while an agent is there to have any chance of getting arrested (only youngsters, whom they can arrest indefinitely without evidence and convict even when innocent, ever get persecuted. Of course, the lack of evidence standards in cases against minors raise the question exactly how often these convictions (sorry "protection measures", not convictions) are fabricated. Let's just say the relation between police and youngsters is strained for some reason). People want this to stop, and so they want more protection of the state. The French state, of course, could be said to have been less than effective in stopping these riots and the destruction. People, including representatives, are just point blank assuming this will help the police to be effective. That the police is the cause of the riots does not seem to make a big impression. "Do not shoot people moving away from you in the face" is clearly to much for the police to handle. When you ask people "what else would you want people to do?" there are no answers, because especially nobody wants the obvious option: another long-term national strike. Ironically the state has done nothing but grow. This is the fundamental conflict: everyone has to "save" (especially people who can't), but not the state. With inflation people have to spend ~11% less, effectively. The state has decided their absolutely necessary expenses will not even have to return to pre-pandemic levels. People want protection, that's why this gets approved. But the state, where they believe to get this protection, is the direct cause of most of the problems people face.
- grey-area 3y ago
  The US and UK do this too, intelligence agencies routinely break the law with no consequences.
  - nyokodo 3y ago
    This is an escalation of the intelligence over-reach because the Police are a much more intrusive force on everyday life.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  where do you live that you are so certain this isn't already done?
- ovi256 3y ago
  > my own government decided it was okay to spy on everyone that way Most have already decided it's okay, and they do it through their intelligence agencies. This is an expansion in scale through LE agencies.
- ur-whale 3y ago
  You government (wherever that may be save a few places) is very likely already doing it, they're just being very discreet about it instead of making it the law of the land.
thereisanewmrkt 3y ago
Can't wait for the market to adapt with covers on the phone camera.
- pengaru 3y ago
  Hardware switches ubiquitous finally
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    Not if they're outlawed! Think of the children/terrorists!
    - pengaru 3y ago
      "She'll get years for that. Off switches are illegal!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9AZZVnNw60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9AZZVnNw60
hans_castorp 3y ago
Didn't France also make using encryption illegal a while ago?
- pjerem 3y ago
  No ?
- adm_ 3y ago
  Yes from 1986 to 1996-99. It is legal since then. Source: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiffrement#En_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiffrement#En_France (in french)
  - hans_castorp 3y ago
    Ah, thanks
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    French Republic v. Math
- zapdrive 3y ago
  Slightly of topic, but they also make DNA tests to determine paternity illegal without the consent of the mother! I recommend all new fathers to do it quietly (without ruffling any feathers), costs basically nothing (< $200) as compared to the pain/devastation finding out 10-20-30 years later that the children you raised were not yours. Doesn't happen a lot, but can happen to anyone. In France you'll go to jail for doing this, or at least have to create a scene with your partner.
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  Australia's been pursuing it since 2018: https://youtube.com/watch?v=i326eNOa6Us&feature=share7 https://youtube.com/watch?v=i326eNOa6Us&feature=share7 Personally, I have nothing to hide. But I enjoy hiding as much as I can for the enjoyment of the technological challenge and also the absolute "Fuck You, Forever" to those sociopaths that want to control that which they have no natural right to control.
HashThis 3y ago
Why does Apple (iPhone) and Google (android OS) enable this?
- DarkmSparks 3y ago
  nothing they can do afaik. these capabilities are built in at the hardware level in the baseband processor.
  - lost_tourist 3y ago
    they could make it easy to completely turn off that hardware so that it can't be used.
  - tinus_hn 3y ago
    Apple compiles the baseband firmware itself, they have control and it’s really doubtful they’d allow the network to just listen in. This is more likely about the use of spyware that is installed on the phone using vulnerabilities in the OS.
hoppyhoppy2 3y ago
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36621757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36621757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36616037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36616037
kkfx 3y ago
FAR more concerning is https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf page 43, second half, article 2212 first, second and fifth paragraph, a complete rewrite of a national defense law who add the possibility INSTEAD of just ordering domestic enterprises to prioritize war-related productions adding the power to requisition ANYTHING, private citizens properties AND their own bodies, just on a decree by Council of Ministers bypassing ANY other law. Curiously so far only few extreme left and extreme right sites have pointed that out loud. Meanwhile at the Parliament a nice intervention to "limit surveillance power" for connected sex toys https://twitter.com/Ugobernalicis/status/1676639024184786958 https://twitter.com/Ugobernalicis/status/1676639024184786958 Welcome to the Summer 2023.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  Is it still a free country if the prime minister can requisition anybody's property or services via a decree? It's declaring the State and the government to be above the people.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  Does this not help temper the concern somewhat? >Art. L. 2212-3. – Les mesures prescrites en application des articles L. 2212-1 et L. 2212-2 sont strictement proportionnées aux objectifs poursuivis et appropriées aux circonstances de temps et de lieu. Elles ne peuvent être ordonnées qu’à défaut de tout autre moyen adéquat disponible dans un délai utile. Il y est mis fin sans délai lorsqu’elles ne sont plus nécessaires.
  - naunauyoh 3y ago
    Seems a bit like an empty statement, "autre moyen adéquat" seems a bit too vague and could just result in a "We tried nothing and we're out of ideas, let's apply article 2212-1"
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  Might be time for them to elect a nutter like Le Pen to swing it bit back the other way.
chaostheory 3y ago
News like this further make the case that the GPRD is mainly protectionist legislation that mainly benefits EU corporations. The EU doesn’t really care about the privacy of their citizens regardless of the virtue signaling.
- byroot 3y ago
  No it doesn't. EU is a large union of 27 countries. France is having a big authoritarian turn that started after the 2015 terror attacks, and it accelerated under Macron. That law would certainly not pass in the majority of EU countries. Additionally, even though I believe this law is terrible, you can't compare a for profit company collecting information on ALL its users, and a police service collecting information on a few thousands people after a judge allowed them to.
  - nehal3m 3y ago
    >you can't compare a for profit company collecting information on ALL its users, and a police service collecting information on a few thousands people after a judge allowed them to. I'm not entirely sure about that. If data is legally collected by a company, who's to say the government can't legally purchase it for their own ends?
    - cccbbbaaa 3y ago
      Under GDPR, if you process personal data, you are required to have a clear scope: which data, why, for how long is it retained, under which legal basis (articles 5 and 6), etc. Selling data later would be a misappropriation of legal basis. More info here: https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/principles-gdpr/purpose-data-processing/can-we-use-data-another-purpose_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/r...
      - nehal3m 3y ago
        Interesting, that's good to know. What happens if the state decides to appropriate the data rather than sell it?
Synaesthesia 3y ago
So, this is why Edward Snowden takes out the microphones out of his phones manually. https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/features/story/when-edward-snowden-gets-a-new-phone-to-protect-his-privacy-this-is-what-he-does-1834292-2021-07-29 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/features/story/when-edw...
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  the highlighted thing is a microphone? i can't find anything about it googling for "s1457 4257". usually this leads you to specs etc.
  - bhaney 3y ago
    > the highlighted thing is a microphone? It's a typical SMD MEMS microphone, yeah > i can't find anything about it googling for "s1457 4257". That's because "1457 4257" is that particular unit's Job Identification Number, and the "S" at the beginning indicates that it's a production unit rather than a test or sample. There's no part identifier on it.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      how is it exposing a membrane? it looks like solid piece of plastic.
      - bhaney 3y ago
        There's a hole in it, you just can't see it from that angle. Bottom port mics, where the hole is in the underside of the package and there's a matching hole in the PCB to allow sound in, are more common (and typically perform better) than top port mics, where the hole would be visible from the top side of the package. Both kinds do exist though.
        2-718-281-828 3y ago
        interesting. i lack the competence to solder around on a smartphone pcb. would it be sufficient to just poke the hole with a needle or drop a small amount of super glue i/onto it?
DeathArrow 3y ago
Next, they should make it unlawful to not carry a smartphone with you.
- hkt 3y ago
  Keeping in mind european attitudes to carrying ID - in some EU countries there are formal and informal penalties if you don't have it - this is not especially far fetched.
  - blakblakarak 3y ago
    It’s obligatory in France. Until recently the french ID was comically large which led to men having to carry massive wallets which gave rise to the ubiquitous “man bag”.
    - darylrunco 3y ago
      There is no obligation to have, even less to carry, an ID card in France (in French : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601). But yeah, the previous card was ridiculously large.
      - byroot 3y ago
        For people who don't read French, yes on paper there is no legal obligation to have any kind of ID on you. However, police forces are allowed to ask anyone their identity without any reason, and if they can't justify of their identity, they can be detained by the police for up to 4 hours for verification, and Police may requires them to do a fingerprint scan: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036
      - mlok 3y ago
        Same URL, but in English : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601?...
orwin 3y ago
Not surprised, it's a continuation of what happening since 2019 (it started a bit earlier, in 2009 to be exact, was reinforced in 2015, but each time with the intent of 'not going further' for both Sarkozy and Hollande). I've discussed that with ecologists and union workers/socialists extensively. I'm not victim blaming, and some were in agreement, but it was obvious that if we accepted undue policing power to investigate Muslims and anarchists, or even royalists, soon enough the state would turn against any threat to its ideology, and the ecologists saw that recently. And once again, the state was smart, and only rural ecologists were illegally detained, the student/bicycles ecologists were left alone. Niemöller still isn't studied enough in Europe it seems.
- paganel 3y ago
  > Niemöller still isn't studied enough in Europe it seems. To this day Robert Paxton's works on Vichy France are still seen by many inside France as "controversial" and what have you, so measures like this one here are just what you'd expect coming from "republican" France.
septune 3y ago
Will listen-and-watch orders be send using operator cell-network or in-band using any OS-API through data-network ?
2rsf 3y ago
Israel has a somewhat similar law, as expected it didn't end up so well https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-police-use-of-nso-spyware-set-to-be-probed-by-knesset-subcommittee/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-police-use-of-nso-spywa...
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  All i see is that a few recommendations were made regarding some judicial over sight. Still doesn't end well for the public.
cubefox 3y ago
No mention of how this works on a technical level. Are they requiring phone manufacturers to put in a backdoor if they want to sell phones in France?
- ovi256 3y ago
  This law specifies the legal mechanism for activating the backdoor. The backdoor will most likely be provided by tools like Pegasus.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Pegasus has nothing to do with backdoors, it uses security vulnerabilities.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Yes, manufacturers have always been bullied by large countries to either build in backdoors for inteligence agencies or be put out of business. This just legalizes existing tech I guess, but that doesn't make it any less bizarre that they decided to put it into plain sight.
finikytou 3y ago
we had riots in france. the government let the riot go without doing much then they lied about the number saying it was a few thousands while anyone with a statistic 101 can tell its a blatant lie. last time we had similar people breaking everything at a soccer game and the ministry of interior told us it was english fans... a while ago we had protest 'yellow vest' and protest against retirement age the government used police to massively destroy the people that were protesting many were left with lifelong disabilities. then we had the covid confinement where we had to have a paper to go out and average citizen where hunted and assaulted for not respecting it. and now we have people rioting and breaking businesses, hurting others in the streets with nothing to stop them. it just doesnt make sense. to me it sounds like we are becoming a dictature where lies are pushed as facts, riots are pushed by the state and entertained to scare the average citizen, surveillance state is controlling us and any kind of protest is severely dealt with. france is becoming scary under macron. just like canada with trudeau, those two guys, young leaders that corrupt journalist pushed and love even tho they represent everything wrong in our country, those two 'modern leaders' they used wokism and green washing to move us further away from real democracies like switzerland. now we are a pink dictature.
ur-whale 3y ago
As if there was already not enough reasons to flee that god-forsaken place (see recent riots, one example among many), now parliament is busy manufacturing new ones. Amazing.

116 points by mysterypie 3y ago

Man are they really going to go through with this?? I’m not even sure what I would do if I was in that situation, where my own government decided it was okay to spy on everyone that way. I’d probably be eying the nearest border.

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
The US could already do that more more than 20 years already, it's nothing new, they are just catching up, crime these days is very well organized and tech savvy, they have to adapt somehow
- DarkmSparks 3y ago
  They all can and already do it afaik. This is just "allowing" them to actually use what gets collected in court instead of having to do so much parallel construction to pretend they can't.
- dgan 3y ago
  Just because your neighbour is doing morally questionable acts, doesn't mean you are getting carte blanche for you. So your first argument doesn't hold. Your second argument might hold but you are not providing anything. I reject the premise that criminals are more tech savvy than regular citizens. I would be more likely to support this law if somehow i was proved it wouldn't be used against peaceful ecologists and Macron protesters.
  - WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
    I'm not saying that All I'm saying is before you complain about your neighbor, clean your own house
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  You in twenty years: “China could already do social scoring more more than 20 years already, it's nothing new, they are just catching up, crime these days is very well organized and tech savvy, they have to adapt somehow”
  - ImHereToVote 3y ago
    You do have a social score if you live in the US. Your credit score is a score on how well you fit as a cog into capitalist society.
    - jonathanstrange 3y ago
      I never understood why Americans are so willing to make debts. The last time I was in debt with my bank is 20 years ago when I was a student and the maximum was 400 Euro.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        Some people like to have a fixed place to live…
vladvasiliu 3y ago
After a quick chat with regular (non-tech) people, they're fine with it. The main reason being that "they can't just do that, they need a judge to sign off on it". They do seem a bit unsurprised that the politicians carved out an exception for themselves ("of course they did"). People here still seem to have faith that the institutions generally work as intended.
- candiodari 3y ago
  No, the politicians and the state have just isolated themselves effectively enough from the riots. The riots are the only thing people can do to protest a number of measures, most seriously the changes to the pensions. These riots (and "riots", not all are violent, and I haven't heard at all of these rioters damaging people) don't affect the state much, but they affect regular people plenty. Torched cars. Destroyed shops. Nonfunctioning services. Police stations are now fortresses, as are most of the government departments. The state has made a definite choice: the hard hand, no help, and absolute priority to their own protection. Normal crime, like theft from stores, what people want the state to work on, is not even prosecuted anymore. You'd have to steal from a big store, in the city center, while an agent is there to have any chance of getting arrested (only youngsters, whom they can arrest indefinitely without evidence and convict even when innocent, ever get persecuted. Of course, the lack of evidence standards in cases against minors raise the question exactly how often these convictions (sorry "protection measures", not convictions) are fabricated. Let's just say the relation between police and youngsters is strained for some reason). People want this to stop, and so they want more protection of the state. The French state, of course, could be said to have been less than effective in stopping these riots and the destruction. People, including representatives, are just point blank assuming this will help the police to be effective. That the police is the cause of the riots does not seem to make a big impression. "Do not shoot people moving away from you in the face" is clearly to much for the police to handle. When you ask people "what else would you want people to do?" there are no answers, because especially nobody wants the obvious option: another long-term national strike. Ironically the state has done nothing but grow. This is the fundamental conflict: everyone has to "save" (especially people who can't), but not the state. With inflation people have to spend ~11% less, effectively. The state has decided their absolutely necessary expenses will not even have to return to pre-pandemic levels. People want protection, that's why this gets approved. But the state, where they believe to get this protection, is the direct cause of most of the problems people face.
grey-area 3y ago
The US and UK do this too, intelligence agencies routinely break the law with no consequences.
- nyokodo 3y ago
  This is an escalation of the intelligence over-reach because the Police are a much more intrusive force on everyday life.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
where do you live that you are so certain this isn't already done?
ovi256 3y ago
> my own government decided it was okay to spy on everyone that way Most have already decided it's okay, and they do it through their intelligence agencies. This is an expansion in scale through LE agencies.
ur-whale 3y ago
You government (wherever that may be save a few places) is very likely already doing it, they're just being very discreet about it instead of making it the law of the land.

thereisanewmrkt 3y ago

Can't wait for the market to adapt with covers on the phone camera.

pengaru 3y ago
Hardware switches ubiquitous finally
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Not if they're outlawed! Think of the children/terrorists!
  - pengaru 3y ago
    "She'll get years for that. Off switches are illegal!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9AZZVnNw60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9AZZVnNw60

hans_castorp 3y ago

Didn't France also make using encryption illegal a while ago?

pjerem 3y ago
No ?
adm_ 3y ago
Yes from 1986 to 1996-99. It is legal since then. Source: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiffrement#En_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiffrement#En_France (in french)
- hans_castorp 3y ago
  Ah, thanks
- moffkalast 3y ago
  French Republic v. Math
zapdrive 3y ago
Slightly of topic, but they also make DNA tests to determine paternity illegal without the consent of the mother! I recommend all new fathers to do it quietly (without ruffling any feathers), costs basically nothing (< $200) as compared to the pain/devastation finding out 10-20-30 years later that the children you raised were not yours. Doesn't happen a lot, but can happen to anyone. In France you'll go to jail for doing this, or at least have to create a scene with your partner.
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
Australia's been pursuing it since 2018: https://youtube.com/watch?v=i326eNOa6Us&feature=share7 https://youtube.com/watch?v=i326eNOa6Us&feature=share7 Personally, I have nothing to hide. But I enjoy hiding as much as I can for the enjoyment of the technological challenge and also the absolute "Fuck You, Forever" to those sociopaths that want to control that which they have no natural right to control.

HashThis 3y ago

Why does Apple (iPhone) and Google (android OS) enable this?

DarkmSparks 3y ago
nothing they can do afaik. these capabilities are built in at the hardware level in the baseband processor.
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  they could make it easy to completely turn off that hardware so that it can't be used.
- tinus_hn 3y ago
  Apple compiles the baseband firmware itself, they have control and it’s really doubtful they’d allow the network to just listen in. This is more likely about the use of spyware that is installed on the phone using vulnerabilities in the OS.

hoppyhoppy2 3y ago

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36621757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36621757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36616037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36616037

kkfx 3y ago

FAR more concerning is https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf page 43, second half, article 2212 first, second and fifth paragraph, a complete rewrite of a national defense law who add the possibility INSTEAD of just ordering domestic enterprises to prioritize war-related productions adding the power to requisition ANYTHING, private citizens properties AND their own bodies, just on a decree by Council of Ministers bypassing ANY other law. Curiously so far only few extreme left and extreme right sites have pointed that out loud. Meanwhile at the Parliament a nice intervention to "limit surveillance power" for connected sex toys https://twitter.com/Ugobernalicis/status/1676639024184786958 https://twitter.com/Ugobernalicis/status/1676639024184786958 Welcome to the Summer 2023.

Aerroon 3y ago
Is it still a free country if the prime minister can requisition anybody's property or services via a decree? It's declaring the State and the government to be above the people.
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Does this not help temper the concern somewhat? >Art. L. 2212-3. – Les mesures prescrites en application des articles L. 2212-1 et L. 2212-2 sont strictement proportionnées aux objectifs poursuivis et appropriées aux circonstances de temps et de lieu. Elles ne peuvent être ordonnées qu’à défaut de tout autre moyen adéquat disponible dans un délai utile. Il y est mis fin sans délai lorsqu’elles ne sont plus nécessaires.
- naunauyoh 3y ago
  Seems a bit like an empty statement, "autre moyen adéquat" seems a bit too vague and could just result in a "We tried nothing and we're out of ideas, let's apply article 2212-1"
lost_tourist 3y ago
Might be time for them to elect a nutter like Le Pen to swing it bit back the other way.

chaostheory 3y ago

News like this further make the case that the GPRD is mainly protectionist legislation that mainly benefits EU corporations. The EU doesn’t really care about the privacy of their citizens regardless of the virtue signaling.

byroot 3y ago
No it doesn't. EU is a large union of 27 countries. France is having a big authoritarian turn that started after the 2015 terror attacks, and it accelerated under Macron. That law would certainly not pass in the majority of EU countries. Additionally, even though I believe this law is terrible, you can't compare a for profit company collecting information on ALL its users, and a police service collecting information on a few thousands people after a judge allowed them to.
- nehal3m 3y ago
  >you can't compare a for profit company collecting information on ALL its users, and a police service collecting information on a few thousands people after a judge allowed them to. I'm not entirely sure about that. If data is legally collected by a company, who's to say the government can't legally purchase it for their own ends?
  - cccbbbaaa 3y ago
    Under GDPR, if you process personal data, you are required to have a clear scope: which data, why, for how long is it retained, under which legal basis (articles 5 and 6), etc. Selling data later would be a misappropriation of legal basis. More info here: https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/principles-gdpr/purpose-data-processing/can-we-use-data-another-purpose_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/r...
    - nehal3m 3y ago
      Interesting, that's good to know. What happens if the state decides to appropriate the data rather than sell it?

Synaesthesia 3y ago

So, this is why Edward Snowden takes out the microphones out of his phones manually. https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/features/story/when-edward-snowden-gets-a-new-phone-to-protect-his-privacy-this-is-what-he-does-1834292-2021-07-29 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/features/story/when-edw...

2-718-281-828 3y ago
the highlighted thing is a microphone? i can't find anything about it googling for "s1457 4257". usually this leads you to specs etc.
- bhaney 3y ago
  > the highlighted thing is a microphone? It's a typical SMD MEMS microphone, yeah > i can't find anything about it googling for "s1457 4257". That's because "1457 4257" is that particular unit's Job Identification Number, and the "S" at the beginning indicates that it's a production unit rather than a test or sample. There's no part identifier on it.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    how is it exposing a membrane? it looks like solid piece of plastic.
    - bhaney 3y ago
      There's a hole in it, you just can't see it from that angle. Bottom port mics, where the hole is in the underside of the package and there's a matching hole in the PCB to allow sound in, are more common (and typically perform better) than top port mics, where the hole would be visible from the top side of the package. Both kinds do exist though.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        interesting. i lack the competence to solder around on a smartphone pcb. would it be sufficient to just poke the hole with a needle or drop a small amount of super glue i/onto it?

DeathArrow 3y ago

Next, they should make it unlawful to not carry a smartphone with you.

hkt 3y ago
Keeping in mind european attitudes to carrying ID - in some EU countries there are formal and informal penalties if you don't have it - this is not especially far fetched.
- blakblakarak 3y ago
  It’s obligatory in France. Until recently the french ID was comically large which led to men having to carry massive wallets which gave rise to the ubiquitous “man bag”.
  - darylrunco 3y ago
    There is no obligation to have, even less to carry, an ID card in France (in French : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601). But yeah, the previous card was ridiculously large.
    - byroot 3y ago
      For people who don't read French, yes on paper there is no legal obligation to have any kind of ID on you. However, police forces are allowed to ask anyone their identity without any reason, and if they can't justify of their identity, they can be detained by the police for up to 4 hours for verification, and Police may requires them to do a fingerprint scan: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036
    - mlok 3y ago
      Same URL, but in English : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601?...

orwin 3y ago

Not surprised, it's a continuation of what happening since 2019 (it started a bit earlier, in 2009 to be exact, was reinforced in 2015, but each time with the intent of 'not going further' for both Sarkozy and Hollande). I've discussed that with ecologists and union workers/socialists extensively. I'm not victim blaming, and some were in agreement, but it was obvious that if we accepted undue policing power to investigate Muslims and anarchists, or even royalists, soon enough the state would turn against any threat to its ideology, and the ecologists saw that recently. And once again, the state was smart, and only rural ecologists were illegally detained, the student/bicycles ecologists were left alone. Niemöller still isn't studied enough in Europe it seems.

paganel 3y ago
> Niemöller still isn't studied enough in Europe it seems. To this day Robert Paxton's works on Vichy France are still seen by many inside France as "controversial" and what have you, so measures like this one here are just what you'd expect coming from "republican" France.

septune 3y ago

Will listen-and-watch orders be send using operator cell-network or in-band using any OS-API through data-network ?

2rsf 3y ago

Israel has a somewhat similar law, as expected it didn't end up so well https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-police-use-of-nso-spyware-set-to-be-probed-by-knesset-subcommittee/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-police-use-of-nso-spywa...

InCityDreams 3y ago
All i see is that a few recommendations were made regarding some judicial over sight. Still doesn't end well for the public.

cubefox 3y ago

No mention of how this works on a technical level. Are they requiring phone manufacturers to put in a backdoor if they want to sell phones in France?

ovi256 3y ago
This law specifies the legal mechanism for activating the backdoor. The backdoor will most likely be provided by tools like Pegasus.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Pegasus has nothing to do with backdoors, it uses security vulnerabilities.
moffkalast 3y ago
Yes, manufacturers have always been bullied by large countries to either build in backdoors for inteligence agencies or be put out of business. This just legalizes existing tech I guess, but that doesn't make it any less bizarre that they decided to put it into plain sight.

finikytou 3y ago

we had riots in france. the government let the riot go without doing much then they lied about the number saying it was a few thousands while anyone with a statistic 101 can tell its a blatant lie. last time we had similar people breaking everything at a soccer game and the ministry of interior told us it was english fans... a while ago we had protest 'yellow vest' and protest against retirement age the government used police to massively destroy the people that were protesting many were left with lifelong disabilities. then we had the covid confinement where we had to have a paper to go out and average citizen where hunted and assaulted for not respecting it. and now we have people rioting and breaking businesses, hurting others in the streets with nothing to stop them. it just doesnt make sense. to me it sounds like we are becoming a dictature where lies are pushed as facts, riots are pushed by the state and entertained to scare the average citizen, surveillance state is controlling us and any kind of protest is severely dealt with. france is becoming scary under macron. just like canada with trudeau, those two guys, young leaders that corrupt journalist pushed and love even tho they represent everything wrong in our country, those two 'modern leaders' they used wokism and green washing to move us further away from real democracies like switzerland. now we are a pink dictature.

ur-whale 3y ago

As if there was already not enough reasons to flee that god-forsaken place (see recent riots, one example among many), now parliament is busy manufacturing new ones. Amazing.