4 ms·

I wonder if over-reliance on digital tools prevents us from being challenged enough to maintain an optimal working memory.

api 3y ago
Seems more likely that the Internet is flooding us and overwhelming our working memory.
MengerSponge 3y ago
And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. Plato (400 BC)
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Funny, given that we read Plato.
  - ycombinete 3y ago
    Plato would not have missed the irony. He was incredibly literary and ironic in his writing. There’s always tension in Plato as to what was his opinion and what was Socrates’. Furthermore many characters in his dialogues are explicitly meant to be wrong in their opinions. Just reading a Plato quote as evidence of Plato’s actual opinion is a route to confusion. This idea as communicated in Phaedrus, by Socrates, was certainly Socrates’ opinion: Socrates never wrote anything down.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I'd bet most of us have to remember a lot more than Plato did. What did he have in his day to day that's similar to the steps I have to take to log into various systems, or recalling the structure of different file systems so I can find things, or the ever growing and changing number of apps and tools? If I were a philosopher, I probably wouldn't need to write things down as much either and it'd be easier to see the need for the written word as "weakness".
emoII 3y ago
Another perspective is that putting our knowledge in the world by using digital tools is the only way we can function while being bombarded by information and distractions
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  And it is possibly the only truly safe way to ensure knowledge propagation.
  - passion__desire 3y ago
    Internalise external information > solve problems in your head by moving pieces around > externalize solutions
    - intelVISA 3y ago
      Transfer solutions to product > burn VC money > retire
    - vidarh 3y ago
      Externalising solutions without externalising the process that lead there is the cause of a whole lot of problems, though. Unstated assumptions often lead to beliefs around choices in solutions that have little to do with reality, but that percolate through systems.
Topfi 3y ago
I really believe it depends on the tool and use case. A Zettelkasten (digital or physical) does create some reliance, yes, but considering the improved output commonly associated, I'd be very surprised if a Zettelkasten tool prevented a user from sufficiently challenging their working memory. There have been, admittedly, no studies on specific digital tools and their impact on the working memory, though at the same time, even the benefit of actively training working memory is inconclusive at best[0]. In general, I am doubtful over any statement that general use of modern technology could lead to a short-term memory impairement. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4968033/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4968033/
falcolas 3y ago
A human's working memory has never been that big. 5-7 items at a time. Less for those who are also dealing with other mental issues.
- pengaru 3y ago
  Which is kind of bonkers when you think about how much complexity there is in the gray matter upstairs, so many neurons, yet just 5-7 items in the cache at a time. Jim Keller raised this point in one of his Lex Fridman interviews. They're some of the more worthwhile ones to listen to IMO.
- criddell 3y ago
  Is what Marilou Henner can do different than working memory?
  - falcolas 3y ago
    There is one thing I always point out when individuals are called out as an exception: genetic mutants whose abilities are ideal for specific tasks exist. Runners who don’t produce lactic acid, swimmers with absurdly long arms, and so forth. The diagnosis of Marilu Henner’s recall ability as Hyperthymesia (per her Wikipedia article) seems to confirm this is a mutation compared to typical memory formation. That aside, long term memory is indeed distinct from working memory. Long term memory is formed from your working memory, but the memories are stored separately.
gopalv 3y ago
> prevents us from being challenged enough Digital tools mostly seem help me with long-term memory and doesn't do a thing for the working memory exercise. I can look up a phone number or have a calendar on what I'm doing next Wednesday, but the working memory of "what am I doing right now" hasn't gone digital yet. Navigation has vaguely the same, because it's more long form memory rather than the hot list in my brain (maybe "what gear am I in?" on a manual car? doubtful). Of all the day to day activities I do, cooking is one of those things where I've really felt like my working memory is working hard & despite quite a few tools like timers or automatic cookers, the way the kitchen is organized with closed drawers is a most-recent working memory exercise like those face-down card games.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kayodelycaon 3y ago
From personal experience they don’t. Nothing has been able to improve my working memory. If anything digital tools greatly improve my memory by allowing me to offload things.
- autoexec 3y ago
  What have you tried? I'm not doubting your efforts. I think there's a very real wall people working to improve their working memory are bound to hit eventually, but I haven't explored things specifically designed to improve working memory. I play video games, I play instruments, I write programs, and I have to imagine that all of it helps, but I haven't tried "brain training" or used tools marketed as improving working memory. I'm not even really sure what's on offer in that space, so if you've found some I'm curious to know about them.
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago
    Surprisingly, working in food service pushed my brain pretty hard for working memory. I managed to push myself from 3 items to 4, but it required constant effort to keep it there. The improvement would disappear after a week of not working. I can’t think of any better test than trial by fire. Kind of like learning languages. Study all you want, theory won’t save you when it comes to practical application. :) When it comes to programming, becoming familiar with your tools and learning to offload stuff to paper far exceeds anything else. If you know something well, you need less working memory to do it.
autoexec 3y ago
I doubt it. Not for most people writing software anyway. It might just be my own limitations, but I feel like I'm challenged quite a lot. I'm also not sure how much improvement we can realistically get. Some improvement will certainly come with practice, but at a certain point you're bound to approach your limits and the number of errors and amount of time wasted won't be worth the extra effort expended depending only on what your brain can hold onto at once.

api 3y ago

Seems more likely that the Internet is flooding us and overwhelming our working memory.

MengerSponge 3y ago

And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. Plato (400 BC)

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Funny, given that we read Plato.
- ycombinete 3y ago
  Plato would not have missed the irony. He was incredibly literary and ironic in his writing. There’s always tension in Plato as to what was his opinion and what was Socrates’. Furthermore many characters in his dialogues are explicitly meant to be wrong in their opinions. Just reading a Plato quote as evidence of Plato’s actual opinion is a route to confusion. This idea as communicated in Phaedrus, by Socrates, was certainly Socrates’ opinion: Socrates never wrote anything down.
autoexec 3y ago
I'd bet most of us have to remember a lot more than Plato did. What did he have in his day to day that's similar to the steps I have to take to log into various systems, or recalling the structure of different file systems so I can find things, or the ever growing and changing number of apps and tools? If I were a philosopher, I probably wouldn't need to write things down as much either and it'd be easier to see the need for the written word as "weakness".

emoII 3y ago

Another perspective is that putting our knowledge in the world by using digital tools is the only way we can function while being bombarded by information and distractions

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
And it is possibly the only truly safe way to ensure knowledge propagation.
- passion__desire 3y ago
  Internalise external information > solve problems in your head by moving pieces around > externalize solutions
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    Transfer solutions to product > burn VC money > retire
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Externalising solutions without externalising the process that lead there is the cause of a whole lot of problems, though. Unstated assumptions often lead to beliefs around choices in solutions that have little to do with reality, but that percolate through systems.

Topfi 3y ago

I really believe it depends on the tool and use case. A Zettelkasten (digital or physical) does create some reliance, yes, but considering the improved output commonly associated, I'd be very surprised if a Zettelkasten tool prevented a user from sufficiently challenging their working memory. There have been, admittedly, no studies on specific digital tools and their impact on the working memory, though at the same time, even the benefit of actively training working memory is inconclusive at best[0]. In general, I am doubtful over any statement that general use of modern technology could lead to a short-term memory impairement. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4968033/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4968033/

falcolas 3y ago

A human's working memory has never been that big. 5-7 items at a time. Less for those who are also dealing with other mental issues.

pengaru 3y ago
Which is kind of bonkers when you think about how much complexity there is in the gray matter upstairs, so many neurons, yet just 5-7 items in the cache at a time. Jim Keller raised this point in one of his Lex Fridman interviews. They're some of the more worthwhile ones to listen to IMO.
criddell 3y ago
Is what Marilou Henner can do different than working memory?
- falcolas 3y ago
  There is one thing I always point out when individuals are called out as an exception: genetic mutants whose abilities are ideal for specific tasks exist. Runners who don’t produce lactic acid, swimmers with absurdly long arms, and so forth. The diagnosis of Marilu Henner’s recall ability as Hyperthymesia (per her Wikipedia article) seems to confirm this is a mutation compared to typical memory formation. That aside, long term memory is indeed distinct from working memory. Long term memory is formed from your working memory, but the memories are stored separately.

gopalv 3y ago

> prevents us from being challenged enough Digital tools mostly seem help me with long-term memory and doesn't do a thing for the working memory exercise. I can look up a phone number or have a calendar on what I'm doing next Wednesday, but the working memory of "what am I doing right now" hasn't gone digital yet. Navigation has vaguely the same, because it's more long form memory rather than the hot list in my brain (maybe "what gear am I in?" on a manual car? doubtful). Of all the day to day activities I do, cooking is one of those things where I've really felt like my working memory is working hard & despite quite a few tools like timers or automatic cookers, the way the kitchen is organized with closed drawers is a most-recent working memory exercise like those face-down card games.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

kayodelycaon 3y ago

From personal experience they don’t. Nothing has been able to improve my working memory. If anything digital tools greatly improve my memory by allowing me to offload things.

autoexec 3y ago
What have you tried? I'm not doubting your efforts. I think there's a very real wall people working to improve their working memory are bound to hit eventually, but I haven't explored things specifically designed to improve working memory. I play video games, I play instruments, I write programs, and I have to imagine that all of it helps, but I haven't tried "brain training" or used tools marketed as improving working memory. I'm not even really sure what's on offer in that space, so if you've found some I'm curious to know about them.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  Surprisingly, working in food service pushed my brain pretty hard for working memory. I managed to push myself from 3 items to 4, but it required constant effort to keep it there. The improvement would disappear after a week of not working. I can’t think of any better test than trial by fire. Kind of like learning languages. Study all you want, theory won’t save you when it comes to practical application. :) When it comes to programming, becoming familiar with your tools and learning to offload stuff to paper far exceeds anything else. If you know something well, you need less working memory to do it.

autoexec 3y ago

I doubt it. Not for most people writing software anyway. It might just be my own limitations, but I feel like I'm challenged quite a lot. I'm also not sure how much improvement we can realistically get. Some improvement will certainly come with practice, but at a certain point you're bound to approach your limits and the number of errors and amount of time wasted won't be worth the extra effort expended depending only on what your brain can hold onto at once.