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Amazon CEO Asks His Hollywood Studio to Explain Its Big Spending

30 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

purpleblue 3y ago
I'm at the precipice of getting rid of most of my streaming services. I only keep Amazon video around is because it's free. The only show I watch on that is The Boys. I'm waiting for Netflix to ask me to purchase a second account for my sibling who I share my Netflix account with, and when that happens I'll immediately cancel it. There's nothing there I watch anymore. Disney+ has a slew of failed Marvel shows and I cancelled it early on. Hulu, Peacock and the rest of the services have nothing for me. The only quality content is HBO that I'm willing to pay $15/month for. I also pay for Youtube premium because no matter how much I try to force the issue, my kids watch Youtube the way I watch TV, so I'd rather get rid of all the ads. Everything else, I will pirate without guilt.
- mikece 3y ago
  > Everything else, I will pirate without guilt. I ask this without irony: is there even anything worth sourcing from the high seas these days? Entertainment has largely turned to crap in my opinion.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    It depends on what you like, but there is stuff out there. And the pirating is easier because good content is spread so thinly across platforms. Personally, I enjoy comedies and cooking, and those have done right. I’m kind of over the dramatic HBO-style experience.
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      Comedies and Cooking are pretty cheap to produce so they are under less pressure. Hmmm.... I wonder if a comedy series about cooking would bring in viewers? :-)
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        The anime Food Wars is basically this, satirizing Iron Chef style shows and anime.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    For one thing, there is all of the material getting removed by streaming services either for controversial content or simply because it is no longer profitable for the services to host them.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    My plex server is probably 90% things that are over 10 years old. I relatively recently finished Columbo. I don't really have much of a problem pirating something where most of the people who were involved are dead or in a nursing home.
  - monsieurgaufre 3y ago
    Hard to get documentaries, live bootlegs from the users' favorite bands, ... The "long tail" has moved to the high seas. At least, in my case.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  > Everything else, I will pirate without guilt. Are you unwilling or unable to pay for the remaining content you plan to consume? I’ve never understood how flippant HN is about piracy. The entire tech industry is built on intellectual property.
  - afavour 3y ago
    I suspect your view is going to be unpopular but I agree with you. It's fine to find today's selection of streaming TV awful. Just don't watch it. "I'm going to watch this awful thing, I'm just not going to pay for it" isn't really all that defensible as a viewpoint. Declining streaming revenue means the expensive, good shows will get cancelled and replaced by shitty, cheap to make reality TV. And then people will moan about how all the good TV they used to pirate got cancelled.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Plenty of good shows get cancelled even without piracy, though. One wonders what’s the best way to signal to the suits that a show is in hot demand. Maybe by buying it directly or by being a Nielsen viewer.
      - whatshisface 3y ago
        The best way to support a show you like is by being a million people. :-)
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        When it comes to streaming content, the suits have all the data. It comes down to the simple formula of does this show keep and attract subscribers in sufficient numbers to make its production costs worthwhile.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
- oflannabhra 3y ago
  We cut the sub on Netflix last year when they hiked the price. We've re-subbed a single month since then, during the holidays, and we didn't even fill up the month with enough to watch. I'm not sure if that's a discoverability problem, but my sense is that it is a quality problem. We've now moved to a carousel of rotating subscriptions between Hulu, Disney, HBO, Peacock, etc. It's much cheaper although annoying to manage. The only streaming services we haven't cancelled have been Prime and Apple TV+, mostly because they are free as part of bundles. Apple TV+ has had the highest number of favorite shows for us, and has easily been the best value. (Prehistoric Planet, Tiny World, Severance, Silo, Black Bird, For All Mankind, and many others).
  - browningstreet 3y ago
    Services like https://www.justwatch.com https://www.justwatch.com make it easier to track shows as they move from service to service, as well...
- bojan 3y ago
  Recently I only get real value from Sky Showtime, because Star Trek Strange New Worlds is on it. And considering the way they canceled Prodigy, I do wonder how long SNW will last.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > I'm waiting for Netflix to ask me to purchase a second account for my sibling who I share my Netflix account with, and when that happens I'll immediately cancel it. There's nothing there I watch anymore. If you don’t watch anymore, like you say, then why have a subscription at all?
  - mwcremer 3y ago
    Sounds like their sibling still uses it.
cs702 3y ago
For a while, before Jassy became CEO, people at the company would sometimes jokingly refer to Amazon Studios as "the loss leader for Bezos's sex life." Now that subscriber growth is slowing down at most streaming services, the end of the "golden age of TV" is at hand. Welcome to the "bean-counting age of TV," in which streaming services try to milk subscribers for as much as possible without pissing them off too much. Going forward, I'm expecting cheaper content, greater restrictions, higher prices, a proliferation of tiered subscription plans, and pervasive advertisement. Completely predictable.
- afavour 3y ago
  > Going forward, I'm expecting cheaper content Netflix's proliferation of reality TV (Love is Blind etc) felt absolutely jarring to me at first but it's just the tip of the iceberg. We're going to look back on the era of prestige TV fondly.
  - nullindividual 3y ago
    > Netflix's proliferation of reality TV (Love is Blind etc) felt absolutely jarring to me at first but it's just the tip of the iceberg. This should be seen as a death-kneel for any channel/service, yet those cable channels keep going after decades of truly terrible TV. I wonder what kind of person these shows pander to.
    - afavour 3y ago
      > I wonder what kind of person these shows pander to. An absolutely massive audience that just wants to switch off at the end of the day rather than engage in a deep drama or similar. I'm not exactly defending it but don't underestimate the size of that audience.
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        Yeah I'll bite. James Cameron said something to the effect of "a ticket to a movie is a promise to give something 100% of your attention for 2 hours" -- and most of the time I'm NOT willing to do that. Reality TV or something is fine much of the time.
malfist 3y ago
Internally, there's been a lot of hate towards financing these big spends in the era of layoffs. Lots of rumors say that we were saddled with Rings of Power because Bezos wanted his own Game of Thrones.
mikece 3y ago
High costs for studios seems to be something experienced by everyone in Hollywood; the difference for Amazon is that the studios sell their product on a pay-per-view basis upon launch whereas Amazon gives it away for free to everyone with Prime (at least for now... maybe Prime will start doing PPV on initial release adn then free for Prime members later?). I've had Prime for years and wish the service was bifurcated such that I only get the shipping benefits -- I don't really care for the streaming media part of it.
- explorigin 3y ago
  Amazon runs advertisements with its shows now...it just does so under the channel name "FreeVee".
- solardev 3y ago
  Funny, I wish there was a way to pay for streaming media without the shipping.
xyst 3y ago
Interesting. I always thought of Prime Video and Amazon Studios as loss leaders. Also they were investing so much into the studio as to become the dominant leader in 20 yrs as they streamline the process and pump out IP more efficiently (similar to AWS). Seems like they are going backwards or current CEO doesn’t have the backbone to make it happen.
- malfist 3y ago
  Full disclosure: disgruntled amazon employee It seems like lately a lot of our CEO's decisions lack backbone or conviction. It seems like he go the role of CEO by yes-maning Bezos (See brain double quote here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/andy-jassy-amazon-ceo-jeff-bezos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/andy-jassy-ama...) A lot of the decisions made by our CEO lately have been justified with "not invented here" logic. Announcements for both RTO and layoffs have been justified with "other leaders are doing it" statements. Unpopular decisions (like RTO) are made days after a public forum where our CEO could have announced it.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > It seems like lately a lot of our CEO's decisions lack backbone or conviction. It seems like he go the role of CEO by yes-maning Bezos For sake of argument, I’m assuming Jeff Bezos decided who to succeed him. Your observation would imply that you think Jeff Bezos made a poor decision. He is often lauded for his insights and good decision-making, but of course that doesn’t mean one is infallible. Do you think his choice was wrong and he made a mistake?
  - birdymcbird 3y ago
    this is amazon culture since beginning. decision making federated to director level or VP organization and s-team only step in on bigger goal. rto not even top 3 company problem though. main issue is fast pace culture that had its own problem with retention now turned into lazy, cancerous zombie. -performance bar lowered at all levels. -management layers overrun by hires from failing companies. i left after 10 years. tech stopped hiring innovators. it simply h1b wagon..people who do exactly as told because they afraid of PIP and having to move back to india. the other class of worker is a politician from some company like ibm. from ibm, they bring EXTREME culture of politics and empire building. my theory that amazon leadership know this biggest business risk. any rto policy to get these people to quit without severance. amazon leadership know problem so bad they will risk strong talent.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Unfortunately the place where I buy toilet paper from is not the first place I think of when I want to be entertained. Unfortunately it's a culture and branding problem which I don't think Amazon can fix.
- cowsup 3y ago
  More companies need to utilize different brand names when launching vastly different products. If there was a service called “Comcast (Stream / Video / Watch / Play),” the numbers would be in the toilet; but they brand their streaming platform as “Peacock” and it’s quite respectable. Had Amazon named their service something unique, and announced it as some sort of bonus subscription you get as part of Prime (or something you can subscribe to separately), I wonder if more people would watch. It would also help separate the streaming platform from the concept of “Purchase a movie through Amazon.”
  - ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
    Absolutely. Branding and what space things take in your head is very important. I associate Amazon with mostly generic stuff which I can get a good price on and it will get delivered fast and a huge amount of Chinese knockoffs which are super over priced compared to Ali express (aka Ali express with better English copy). Prime is also associated with that and by extension so is Prime video.
fabian2k 3y ago
I haven't watched it as the reviews indicate it's likely not worth it, but Amazon's Citadel does seem kinda absurd in terms of money spent compared to the result. There are certainly series where you can see the money they spent, that kind of quality might not get you a mainstream audience anyway but even if it is not a commcercial success you can still understand why it was expensive. It doesn't seem surprising that a very expensive series that doesn't look expensive and at the same time fails to attract a mainstream audience would trigger some scrutiny.
TradingPlaces 3y ago
Wait? He’s just asking now?
spiderPig 3y ago
The biggest winner in all this will be Netflix. They’re the only profitable streaming service and we’ll see all these streamers consolidate and either sell their catalogs again or cut down on spending
iamleppert 3y ago
It’s about time that tech companies go in and clean up Hollywood. There needs to be a year of efficiency imposed on these spendthrifts. The Hollywood elite needs to be held accountable, if they are not delivering ROI and maximizing shareholder value. It should not cost so much for a TV show or movie. YouTubers with more views are producing hit after hit with nothing more than an iPhone these days. Directors should streamline their operations with AI, and on-screen talent and team members should be paid an hourly wage that is only time they are actually in front of a camera, delivering value. If they really believe in a project, they can choose to give up cash compensation for the privilege of purchasing options of a TV show. This helps align incentives and optimize risk to capital and stakeholders to do more and deliver faster with less. Amazon and others should think about relocating production to areas outside of California where the costs are out of control and in a locale where the regulatory environment is optimized for business returns. TV shows and movies need to be evaluated on a quarterly basis and KPI’s should be enforced at all levels. To minimize risk, investment into AI that can be trained to emulate consumer watching behavior is needed and production should be run in a data-driven agile process. If a show can’t be monetized, it isn’t worth being produced. Entertainment needs to be in the service of moving ad inventory, growing or retaining paying subscribers, or improving conversion of existing profit centers.
- blarghyblarg 3y ago
  I honestly can't tell if you're an arts supporter writing satire, or a bean counter who is serious.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Poeslaw Productions presents: Hollywood, founder’s cut
- dijit 3y ago
  Wow, this is really on the line, I can't quite tell if you're being sarcastic or not. For the sake of it not being sarcasm; obviously it's my belief that not everything (especially entertainment of all things) should be seen through the lens of purely making money. I am quite sure there are dozens and dozens of people who will disagree with me -- but it's always been my belief that Art that covers it's own costs and leaves its mark on humanity and history is a much greater success than making money hand-over-fist. The game industry is really straddling the line with this and has been for quite a substantial amount of time, it's a war between MBAs and creatives, though even Sony recognises the need for creative freedom and does not expect a substantial profit on their games. (though I suppose their incentives are different, great games boost sales of the consoles which gives them greater market share)
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Apparently they saw the video as a way of getting people on to Prime. They aren't doing a very good job then; I had not heard of ANY of the shows they list in the article.
dbg31415 3y ago
I feel like Amazon shows spend money on actors and sets, but not nearly enough on writing. And that just sort of underscores how important writers are. You can have a cool concept, but if you can't build a good story out of it... or you don't give writers time to explore... you end up with a story that doesn't capture audiences. I feel like Amazon is probably the least forgiving with deadlines, and that's going to lead to shittier scripts going into production. Over time... that dooms a series. Most Amazon shows seem like cool concepts. But the writing, at times, just seems really "basic cable-y" -- and it's a shame since it's clear Amazon is spending a mint on these shows. But the end result just feels like someone wearing a $12k suit and flip flips. Something just seems off. Also, Amazon doesn't do nearly enough to advertise shows. They need to get more hype, more people talking about their shows -- they seem to think that ads inside of Amazon are enough. I feel like their efforts are probably stifled since many news outlets are tied to their own entertainment streaming services. "Let's only talk about Disney+ shows..." But like Reddit, and social media in general... they need to do more to get the word out about their shows. A friend (who is also in his 40s) put it really well when we were talking about the problem with Amazon shows... "They are Showtime when they want to be HBO." They certainly are spending the money to be HBO... but it's not all about money, sometimes it's about time and giving up control to the artists so the artists can do their best work. Lastly, holy hell this can't be underscored enough, I hate using Amazon Prime Video since they don't have a way to turn off the "buy now" buttons. Like, if I want to have kids or elderly parents on that account... I just want them to see shows that don't cost me money to watch, and Amazon does nothing but layer in ads for shows and services that I have to buy. Among all the streaming services, Amazon is THE WORST at this. And as a result, I don't even want to install it on my parent's TVs for the simple fact that Dad will complain if there are shows on there he has to pay for, and he'll flip out if he gets an unexpected bill -- like to the point he won't feel comfortable using that TV at all, even another app, if he feels it'll bill him. I bet a lot of older folks are in this boat.
- dbg31415 3y ago
  An example of where the show's writers just really missed the mark... I wanted to like "A League of Their Own" -- I loved the movie. But I can't watch the TV show. It seems like they have spent a lot to make the world feel like it's WW2-era. Except when anyone speaks. All the dialogue and idioms seem pulled from the present. And, for me, it doesn't seem intentional. It just seems sloppy. And that makes it impossible for me to get lost in the story. Like it feels like all the actors know it's 2023 and could at any minute bust out a cell phone and take a selfie. Like, "Mad Men" was a great period piece. "Halt and Catch Fire" was also a great period piece. And even "A Knights Tale", or even "Norsemen" was a good sort of modern spin on antiquity. But ALOTO just feels sort of unintentionally lost between the two. I can only guess the dialogue gets improvised (I can see this being the case given the casting choices and how one of the creators is also one of the actors), or the writers don't have a shared style guide for consistency, or the story editor (or whatever role) is pressed for time. But the end result is a show that portrayed a world that had no real conflict (since the actors all sort of seem to know it's 2023) and so it just sort of felt like a predictable outcome where everyone just sort of says things that imply, "I know where society is headed!" And I quickly lost interest.
prepend 3y ago
> The article also noted that a minority of the viewers who started The Rings of Power, Amazon’s most expensive project ever, finished the series. It’s funny how something is so bad people won’t even watch it for free. I don’t think this is a completely correct assumption, but since Amazon doesn’t give viewership numbers (or Netflix or Hulu or hbo) it’s hard to know if a show is successful or popular or profitable. I’d like to see old fashioned Nielsen rating numbers so you can tell if 1M households watched something and could compare shows. I’m sure some people watch an episode because the marginal cost is $0 so it’s probably equivalent to an old prime time show on ABC/CBS/NBC that would have high ratings in the beginning and then low ratings in the end. Broadcast tv was free too. It reminds me of how friends wouldn’t even watch a movie or show on torrents and that would help me understand if a movie is good or bad (with a torrenting crowd) because people won’t even download Justice League and watch it for free. Anyway, I’ve been surprised at how bad Amazon’s shows are considering their spend. They seem like the anti-AppleTV. AppleTV seems to spend a lot as well, but make much higher quality stuff. I suspect it’s because AppleTV has a direct cost and budget and want to attract people to watch. And prime video is lumped into Prime membership that is probably pure profit to Amazon and just customers on auto charge year after year, so most don’t even watch video yet they have revenue from 152M US prime members [0] so Amazon is getting $21B/year and may not care about viewership, they just need to spend money. [0] https://www.searchlogistics.com/learn/statistics/amazon-prime-statistics/ https://www.searchlogistics.com/learn/statistics/amazon-prim...
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >> The article also noted that a minority of the viewers who started The Rings of Power, Amazon’s most expensive project ever, finished the series. >It’s funny how something is so bad people won’t even watch it for free. By contrast, ratings for The Last of Us on HBO rose steadily through every episode <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_Us_(TV_series)#Ratings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_Us_(TV_series)#Rat...>.
more_corn 3y ago
I’d rather an explanation why so many expensive shows suck. Citadel is terrible. As though the show runners have no idea what makes a show like that good. Keep in mind that you’re asking people to suspend disbelief. Don’t continually challenge that disbelief. I tried the show, said meh, tried again and turned it off in disgust. Compare to John wick (same target) doesn’t have a great story, but they ask you to suspend disbelief once and then never challenge you again. It’s got character, pathos. Not magical fucking skis. Rings of power sucked terribly. I remember being repeatedly amazed at how such a high production value show could grab me not at all. The first fight scene was mind blowing. And yet I didn’t care. The ship they sail in the (second?) episode. Gorgeous, wonderful, compelling. I remember thinking. You built this whole unique wooden ship, and actually learned to sail it just to convince me of the authenticity of the scene. Only to throw it away five min later. The story and dialogue? Utter crap. Don’t even get me started on the narration. Bro. Go back to your notes from your first creative writing class. A quarter of the way down the first page you’ll see something that says “Show, don’t tell.” You need to actually sit down and figure out what that means. What to know how they get maximum bang for their buck? They need someone on each project (with veto rights) who actually knows how to tell a story. The thing they’re lacking isn’t expensive, but it does take a bit of rigor and someone with the courage and power to say no.

30 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

I'm at the precipice of getting rid of most of my streaming services. I only keep Amazon video around is because it's free. The only show I watch on that is The Boys. I'm waiting for Netflix to ask me to purchase a second account for my sibling who I share my Netflix account with, and when that happens I'll immediately cancel it. There's nothing there I watch anymore. Disney+ has a slew of failed Marvel shows and I cancelled it early on. Hulu, Peacock and the rest of the services have nothing for me. The only quality content is HBO that I'm willing to pay $15/month for. I also pay for Youtube premium because no matter how much I try to force the issue, my kids watch Youtube the way I watch TV, so I'd rather get rid of all the ads. Everything else, I will pirate without guilt.

mikece 3y ago
> Everything else, I will pirate without guilt. I ask this without irony: is there even anything worth sourcing from the high seas these days? Entertainment has largely turned to crap in my opinion.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  It depends on what you like, but there is stuff out there. And the pirating is easier because good content is spread so thinly across platforms. Personally, I enjoy comedies and cooking, and those have done right. I’m kind of over the dramatic HBO-style experience.
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Comedies and Cooking are pretty cheap to produce so they are under less pressure. Hmmm.... I wonder if a comedy series about cooking would bring in viewers? :-)
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      The anime Food Wars is basically this, satirizing Iron Chef style shows and anime.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  For one thing, there is all of the material getting removed by streaming services either for controversial content or simply because it is no longer profitable for the services to host them.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  My plex server is probably 90% things that are over 10 years old. I relatively recently finished Columbo. I don't really have much of a problem pirating something where most of the people who were involved are dead or in a nursing home.
- monsieurgaufre 3y ago
  Hard to get documentaries, live bootlegs from the users' favorite bands, ... The "long tail" has moved to the high seas. At least, in my case.
lockhouse 3y ago
> Everything else, I will pirate without guilt. Are you unwilling or unable to pay for the remaining content you plan to consume? I’ve never understood how flippant HN is about piracy. The entire tech industry is built on intellectual property.
- afavour 3y ago
  I suspect your view is going to be unpopular but I agree with you. It's fine to find today's selection of streaming TV awful. Just don't watch it. "I'm going to watch this awful thing, I'm just not going to pay for it" isn't really all that defensible as a viewpoint. Declining streaming revenue means the expensive, good shows will get cancelled and replaced by shitty, cheap to make reality TV. And then people will moan about how all the good TV they used to pirate got cancelled.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Plenty of good shows get cancelled even without piracy, though. One wonders what’s the best way to signal to the suits that a show is in hot demand. Maybe by buying it directly or by being a Nielsen viewer.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      The best way to support a show you like is by being a million people. :-)
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      When it comes to streaming content, the suits have all the data. It comes down to the simple formula of does this show keep and attract subscribers in sufficient numbers to make its production costs worthwhile.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
oflannabhra 3y ago
We cut the sub on Netflix last year when they hiked the price. We've re-subbed a single month since then, during the holidays, and we didn't even fill up the month with enough to watch. I'm not sure if that's a discoverability problem, but my sense is that it is a quality problem. We've now moved to a carousel of rotating subscriptions between Hulu, Disney, HBO, Peacock, etc. It's much cheaper although annoying to manage. The only streaming services we haven't cancelled have been Prime and Apple TV+, mostly because they are free as part of bundles. Apple TV+ has had the highest number of favorite shows for us, and has easily been the best value. (Prehistoric Planet, Tiny World, Severance, Silo, Black Bird, For All Mankind, and many others).
- browningstreet 3y ago
  Services like https://www.justwatch.com https://www.justwatch.com make it easier to track shows as they move from service to service, as well...
bojan 3y ago
Recently I only get real value from Sky Showtime, because Star Trek Strange New Worlds is on it. And considering the way they canceled Prodigy, I do wonder how long SNW will last.
andsoitis 3y ago
> I'm waiting for Netflix to ask me to purchase a second account for my sibling who I share my Netflix account with, and when that happens I'll immediately cancel it. There's nothing there I watch anymore. If you don’t watch anymore, like you say, then why have a subscription at all?
- mwcremer 3y ago
  Sounds like their sibling still uses it.

cs702 3y ago

For a while, before Jassy became CEO, people at the company would sometimes jokingly refer to Amazon Studios as "the loss leader for Bezos's sex life." Now that subscriber growth is slowing down at most streaming services, the end of the "golden age of TV" is at hand. Welcome to the "bean-counting age of TV," in which streaming services try to milk subscribers for as much as possible without pissing them off too much. Going forward, I'm expecting cheaper content, greater restrictions, higher prices, a proliferation of tiered subscription plans, and pervasive advertisement. Completely predictable.

afavour 3y ago
> Going forward, I'm expecting cheaper content Netflix's proliferation of reality TV (Love is Blind etc) felt absolutely jarring to me at first but it's just the tip of the iceberg. We're going to look back on the era of prestige TV fondly.
- nullindividual 3y ago
  > Netflix's proliferation of reality TV (Love is Blind etc) felt absolutely jarring to me at first but it's just the tip of the iceberg. This should be seen as a death-kneel for any channel/service, yet those cable channels keep going after decades of truly terrible TV. I wonder what kind of person these shows pander to.
  - afavour 3y ago
    > I wonder what kind of person these shows pander to. An absolutely massive audience that just wants to switch off at the end of the day rather than engage in a deep drama or similar. I'm not exactly defending it but don't underestimate the size of that audience.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      Yeah I'll bite. James Cameron said something to the effect of "a ticket to a movie is a promise to give something 100% of your attention for 2 hours" -- and most of the time I'm NOT willing to do that. Reality TV or something is fine much of the time.

malfist 3y ago

Internally, there's been a lot of hate towards financing these big spends in the era of layoffs. Lots of rumors say that we were saddled with Rings of Power because Bezos wanted his own Game of Thrones.

mikece 3y ago

High costs for studios seems to be something experienced by everyone in Hollywood; the difference for Amazon is that the studios sell their product on a pay-per-view basis upon launch whereas Amazon gives it away for free to everyone with Prime (at least for now... maybe Prime will start doing PPV on initial release adn then free for Prime members later?). I've had Prime for years and wish the service was bifurcated such that I only get the shipping benefits -- I don't really care for the streaming media part of it.

explorigin 3y ago
Amazon runs advertisements with its shows now...it just does so under the channel name "FreeVee".
solardev 3y ago
Funny, I wish there was a way to pay for streaming media without the shipping.

xyst 3y ago

Interesting. I always thought of Prime Video and Amazon Studios as loss leaders. Also they were investing so much into the studio as to become the dominant leader in 20 yrs as they streamline the process and pump out IP more efficiently (similar to AWS). Seems like they are going backwards or current CEO doesn’t have the backbone to make it happen.

malfist 3y ago
Full disclosure: disgruntled amazon employee It seems like lately a lot of our CEO's decisions lack backbone or conviction. It seems like he go the role of CEO by yes-maning Bezos (See brain double quote here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/andy-jassy-amazon-ceo-jeff-bezos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/andy-jassy-ama...) A lot of the decisions made by our CEO lately have been justified with "not invented here" logic. Announcements for both RTO and layoffs have been justified with "other leaders are doing it" statements. Unpopular decisions (like RTO) are made days after a public forum where our CEO could have announced it.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > It seems like lately a lot of our CEO's decisions lack backbone or conviction. It seems like he go the role of CEO by yes-maning Bezos For sake of argument, I’m assuming Jeff Bezos decided who to succeed him. Your observation would imply that you think Jeff Bezos made a poor decision. He is often lauded for his insights and good decision-making, but of course that doesn’t mean one is infallible. Do you think his choice was wrong and he made a mistake?
- birdymcbird 3y ago
  this is amazon culture since beginning. decision making federated to director level or VP organization and s-team only step in on bigger goal. rto not even top 3 company problem though. main issue is fast pace culture that had its own problem with retention now turned into lazy, cancerous zombie. -performance bar lowered at all levels. -management layers overrun by hires from failing companies. i left after 10 years. tech stopped hiring innovators. it simply h1b wagon..people who do exactly as told because they afraid of PIP and having to move back to india. the other class of worker is a politician from some company like ibm. from ibm, they bring EXTREME culture of politics and empire building. my theory that amazon leadership know this biggest business risk. any rto policy to get these people to quit without severance. amazon leadership know problem so bad they will risk strong talent.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Unfortunately the place where I buy toilet paper from is not the first place I think of when I want to be entertained. Unfortunately it's a culture and branding problem which I don't think Amazon can fix.

cowsup 3y ago
More companies need to utilize different brand names when launching vastly different products. If there was a service called “Comcast (Stream / Video / Watch / Play),” the numbers would be in the toilet; but they brand their streaming platform as “Peacock” and it’s quite respectable. Had Amazon named their service something unique, and announced it as some sort of bonus subscription you get as part of Prime (or something you can subscribe to separately), I wonder if more people would watch. It would also help separate the streaming platform from the concept of “Purchase a movie through Amazon.”
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
  Absolutely. Branding and what space things take in your head is very important. I associate Amazon with mostly generic stuff which I can get a good price on and it will get delivered fast and a huge amount of Chinese knockoffs which are super over priced compared to Ali express (aka Ali express with better English copy). Prime is also associated with that and by extension so is Prime video.

fabian2k 3y ago

I haven't watched it as the reviews indicate it's likely not worth it, but Amazon's Citadel does seem kinda absurd in terms of money spent compared to the result. There are certainly series where you can see the money they spent, that kind of quality might not get you a mainstream audience anyway but even if it is not a commcercial success you can still understand why it was expensive. It doesn't seem surprising that a very expensive series that doesn't look expensive and at the same time fails to attract a mainstream audience would trigger some scrutiny.

TradingPlaces 3y ago

Wait? He’s just asking now?

spiderPig 3y ago

The biggest winner in all this will be Netflix. They’re the only profitable streaming service and we’ll see all these streamers consolidate and either sell their catalogs again or cut down on spending

iamleppert 3y ago

It’s about time that tech companies go in and clean up Hollywood. There needs to be a year of efficiency imposed on these spendthrifts. The Hollywood elite needs to be held accountable, if they are not delivering ROI and maximizing shareholder value. It should not cost so much for a TV show or movie. YouTubers with more views are producing hit after hit with nothing more than an iPhone these days. Directors should streamline their operations with AI, and on-screen talent and team members should be paid an hourly wage that is only time they are actually in front of a camera, delivering value. If they really believe in a project, they can choose to give up cash compensation for the privilege of purchasing options of a TV show. This helps align incentives and optimize risk to capital and stakeholders to do more and deliver faster with less. Amazon and others should think about relocating production to areas outside of California where the costs are out of control and in a locale where the regulatory environment is optimized for business returns. TV shows and movies need to be evaluated on a quarterly basis and KPI’s should be enforced at all levels. To minimize risk, investment into AI that can be trained to emulate consumer watching behavior is needed and production should be run in a data-driven agile process. If a show can’t be monetized, it isn’t worth being produced. Entertainment needs to be in the service of moving ad inventory, growing or retaining paying subscribers, or improving conversion of existing profit centers.

blarghyblarg 3y ago
I honestly can't tell if you're an arts supporter writing satire, or a bean counter who is serious.
Apocryphon 3y ago
Poeslaw Productions presents: Hollywood, founder’s cut
dijit 3y ago
Wow, this is really on the line, I can't quite tell if you're being sarcastic or not. For the sake of it not being sarcasm; obviously it's my belief that not everything (especially entertainment of all things) should be seen through the lens of purely making money. I am quite sure there are dozens and dozens of people who will disagree with me -- but it's always been my belief that Art that covers it's own costs and leaves its mark on humanity and history is a much greater success than making money hand-over-fist. The game industry is really straddling the line with this and has been for quite a substantial amount of time, it's a war between MBAs and creatives, though even Sony recognises the need for creative freedom and does not expect a substantial profit on their games. (though I suppose their incentives are different, great games boost sales of the consoles which gives them greater market share)

MattPalmer1086 3y ago

Apparently they saw the video as a way of getting people on to Prime. They aren't doing a very good job then; I had not heard of ANY of the shows they list in the article.

dbg31415 3y ago

I feel like Amazon shows spend money on actors and sets, but not nearly enough on writing. And that just sort of underscores how important writers are. You can have a cool concept, but if you can't build a good story out of it... or you don't give writers time to explore... you end up with a story that doesn't capture audiences. I feel like Amazon is probably the least forgiving with deadlines, and that's going to lead to shittier scripts going into production. Over time... that dooms a series. Most Amazon shows seem like cool concepts. But the writing, at times, just seems really "basic cable-y" -- and it's a shame since it's clear Amazon is spending a mint on these shows. But the end result just feels like someone wearing a $12k suit and flip flips. Something just seems off. Also, Amazon doesn't do nearly enough to advertise shows. They need to get more hype, more people talking about their shows -- they seem to think that ads inside of Amazon are enough. I feel like their efforts are probably stifled since many news outlets are tied to their own entertainment streaming services. "Let's only talk about Disney+ shows..." But like Reddit, and social media in general... they need to do more to get the word out about their shows. A friend (who is also in his 40s) put it really well when we were talking about the problem with Amazon shows... "They are Showtime when they want to be HBO." They certainly are spending the money to be HBO... but it's not all about money, sometimes it's about time and giving up control to the artists so the artists can do their best work. Lastly, holy hell this can't be underscored enough, I hate using Amazon Prime Video since they don't have a way to turn off the "buy now" buttons. Like, if I want to have kids or elderly parents on that account... I just want them to see shows that don't cost me money to watch, and Amazon does nothing but layer in ads for shows and services that I have to buy. Among all the streaming services, Amazon is THE WORST at this. And as a result, I don't even want to install it on my parent's TVs for the simple fact that Dad will complain if there are shows on there he has to pay for, and he'll flip out if he gets an unexpected bill -- like to the point he won't feel comfortable using that TV at all, even another app, if he feels it'll bill him. I bet a lot of older folks are in this boat.

dbg31415 3y ago
An example of where the show's writers just really missed the mark... I wanted to like "A League of Their Own" -- I loved the movie. But I can't watch the TV show. It seems like they have spent a lot to make the world feel like it's WW2-era. Except when anyone speaks. All the dialogue and idioms seem pulled from the present. And, for me, it doesn't seem intentional. It just seems sloppy. And that makes it impossible for me to get lost in the story. Like it feels like all the actors know it's 2023 and could at any minute bust out a cell phone and take a selfie. Like, "Mad Men" was a great period piece. "Halt and Catch Fire" was also a great period piece. And even "A Knights Tale", or even "Norsemen" was a good sort of modern spin on antiquity. But ALOTO just feels sort of unintentionally lost between the two. I can only guess the dialogue gets improvised (I can see this being the case given the casting choices and how one of the creators is also one of the actors), or the writers don't have a shared style guide for consistency, or the story editor (or whatever role) is pressed for time. But the end result is a show that portrayed a world that had no real conflict (since the actors all sort of seem to know it's 2023) and so it just sort of felt like a predictable outcome where everyone just sort of says things that imply, "I know where society is headed!" And I quickly lost interest.

prepend 3y ago

> The article also noted that a minority of the viewers who started The Rings of Power, Amazon’s most expensive project ever, finished the series. It’s funny how something is so bad people won’t even watch it for free. I don’t think this is a completely correct assumption, but since Amazon doesn’t give viewership numbers (or Netflix or Hulu or hbo) it’s hard to know if a show is successful or popular or profitable. I’d like to see old fashioned Nielsen rating numbers so you can tell if 1M households watched something and could compare shows. I’m sure some people watch an episode because the marginal cost is $0 so it’s probably equivalent to an old prime time show on ABC/CBS/NBC that would have high ratings in the beginning and then low ratings in the end. Broadcast tv was free too. It reminds me of how friends wouldn’t even watch a movie or show on torrents and that would help me understand if a movie is good or bad (with a torrenting crowd) because people won’t even download Justice League and watch it for free. Anyway, I’ve been surprised at how bad Amazon’s shows are considering their spend. They seem like the anti-AppleTV. AppleTV seems to spend a lot as well, but make much higher quality stuff. I suspect it’s because AppleTV has a direct cost and budget and want to attract people to watch. And prime video is lumped into Prime membership that is probably pure profit to Amazon and just customers on auto charge year after year, so most don’t even watch video yet they have revenue from 152M US prime members [0] so Amazon is getting $21B/year and may not care about viewership, they just need to spend money. [0] https://www.searchlogistics.com/learn/statistics/amazon-prime-statistics/ https://www.searchlogistics.com/learn/statistics/amazon-prim...

TMWNN 3y ago
>> The article also noted that a minority of the viewers who started The Rings of Power, Amazon’s most expensive project ever, finished the series. >It’s funny how something is so bad people won’t even watch it for free. By contrast, ratings for The Last of Us on HBO rose steadily through every episode <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_Us_(TV_series)#Ratings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_Us_(TV_series)#Rat...>.

more_corn 3y ago

I’d rather an explanation why so many expensive shows suck. Citadel is terrible. As though the show runners have no idea what makes a show like that good. Keep in mind that you’re asking people to suspend disbelief. Don’t continually challenge that disbelief. I tried the show, said meh, tried again and turned it off in disgust. Compare to John wick (same target) doesn’t have a great story, but they ask you to suspend disbelief once and then never challenge you again. It’s got character, pathos. Not magical fucking skis. Rings of power sucked terribly. I remember being repeatedly amazed at how such a high production value show could grab me not at all. The first fight scene was mind blowing. And yet I didn’t care. The ship they sail in the (second?) episode. Gorgeous, wonderful, compelling. I remember thinking. You built this whole unique wooden ship, and actually learned to sail it just to convince me of the authenticity of the scene. Only to throw it away five min later. The story and dialogue? Utter crap. Don’t even get me started on the narration. Bro. Go back to your notes from your first creative writing class. A quarter of the way down the first page you’ll see something that says “Show, don’t tell.” You need to actually sit down and figure out what that means. What to know how they get maximum bang for their buck? They need someone on each project (with veto rights) who actually knows how to tell a story. The thing they’re lacking isn’t expensive, but it does take a bit of rigor and someone with the courage and power to say no.