4 ms·

I always wonder why Gnome is the default in most distros. It has no API stability guarantee, so long term software investment is not possible. It actively fig

I always wonder why Gnome is the default in most distros. It has no API stability guarantee, so long term software investment is not possible. It actively fights against the choices of its end users. It is severely dumbed down, locking its end users in less efficient workflows. Corporate backing was an upside for providing accessibility, but a recent post here on HN stated things were quickly detoriating. So it's not the right choice for developers, power users, basic users, users with acccessibility needs. But what's left? At this point, gnome seems optimized for being a demo model. You may look at it and marvel at its glorious platonic art, but do not dare to touch it with your grubby fingers or get any work done. This is a shame, really. The Windows 11 experience is at an all-time low right now, and leaves end users actively looking for alternatives. A Debian+KDE is great for non-technical end users, who mostly are used to and want win95 on steroids.

petepete 3y ago
> So it's not the right choice for developers, power users, basic users, users with acccessibility needs. But what's left? Oh come on, most people use it just fine without needing to complain about every last design choice. There are alternatives but for most people, most of the time, GNOME is more than enough. I'm a developer, I use it all day on desktop and laptop without the need for any extra config. I use one extension to hide the panel to avoid any risk of burn in on my oled monitor.
- xeyownt 3y ago
  Exactly my experience too for 10-ish years. I will never want more than what Gnome provides and when I want less, I usually go for xfce.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    On my personal devices I have to install the system tray extension, because Steam, but apart from that Gnome works far better than anything else including OSX for me.
    - pshirshov 3y ago
      Until it doesn't. If you need accessibility support it won't work well. If you need multi-head 4k setup with fractional scaling it won't work well.
      - happymellon 3y ago
        Multihead 4K works better for me than MacOS. I can't even change the volume of the external speakers on MacOS.
        pshirshov 3y ago
        Does it work for you in Gnome Wayland session? Do you use fractional scaling? Do you use any XWayland applications, like VSCode or Jetbrains products?
        happymellon 3y ago
        Oh, so your problem isn't with Gnome but X applications, having issues with fractional scaling and X itself not supporting different scaling amounts on different monitors? Per screen fractional scaling has been available for years (even in Electron), if these particular applications don't support it, it's not because they can't but won't. Although VSCode does claim to support it. > Do you use fractional scaling? I don't because I bought an appropriate monitor. As I said, Gnome works great for me. MacOS doesn't let me change the volume of my external speakers. MacOS doesn't let me move windows between virtual desktops without having to switch to the touchpad. MacOS doesn't let me easily snap a window to either the left or right side of the screen or even maximize it with the keyboard. It's lacking so many really basic features.
        pshirshov 3y ago
        Nope, my problem is with Gnome. Plasma has implemented proper fractional scaling for XWayland. I guess if Plasma works but Gnome doesn't - the problem isn't about the apps, it's about the compositor.
foul 3y ago
I can think only of deception on purpose. Like, they have a million users without any attention span so distros need something that sells itself as a streamlined package without deviations for UX with pro helpdesk support, so that DEs or whatever else with volunteers in development and support can work without being suffocated by triaging absurd bugs and suggestion of new features never backed by a pull request (and even then, a good FLOSS project should add them to the test harness, change docs, etc). So maybe GNOME/systemd out-of-the-box wouldn't make the luser scream for malfunction at first sight. I don't know.
stereolambda 3y ago
Large FOSS projects are social movements, because they have to attract contributors somehow, and they reflect the wider culture. I read modern GNOME as a symptom of longue duree (historiographical term, meaning something that exists for a long time in the unspoken background) of Jobesian thinking that people caught as users and designers. There might be all sorts of economic justifications for mainstream proprietary tech doing this, but for a well-funded FOSS project it has to had become a cultural thing.
npteljes 3y ago
>Debian+KDE is great for non-technical end users, who mostly are used to and want win95 on steroids. I'd agree, but Debian is just not packaged in a convenient way. Even I had trouble figuring it out, and I consider myself a Linux enthusiast. For this reason, my recommendation would rather be Zorin, which literally aims to be "windows-like" to ease the transition from it. And frankly, to me, as someone who knows their way around Linux, is also attractive. It's a neat bundle of capable software that's tuned for out of the box experience.
marcthe12 3y ago
I believe the maintainer of the Fedora KDE spin actually commented on this on reddit some months back. Basically KDE unlike GNOME is a packaging nightmare. Too many packages with a few having lots of deps. On top of that the release schedule has zero alignment to any non rolling release (and multiple since all package can be grouped in 3 differents suites with their own schedule) which usually ends up have outdated KDE. Infact the best KDE experience is tumbleweed or arch which are both rolling releases. GNOME has no such issue. I belive KDE is adjusting the release schedule to try to solve this(I think they will switching to a 6 month schedule after plasma 6)
worksonmine 3y ago
> A Debian+KDE is great for non-technical end users I really want to like KDE but it just feels unstable and janky. I don't do much customization, just dark theme and arrange the bar to remove most plugins and set their positions. These settings are sometimes reset after reboot and I'd have to rearrange the bar. Probably a me problem, but a non-technical user moving to Linux will blame Linux for this and not KDE. If I suggest Linux to anyone Gnome is my first choice unless I know they want to tweak their DE. I guess the distros have similar reasons. Breakage between versions is better than reboots.
yoyohello13 3y ago
Gnome’s “intended” workflow of using many workspaces and heavy use of key binds is very efficient. I’ve been using it for several years and actually learned how to use it the way the developers intended and it’s way more efficient and polished than every other desktop environment. Frankly, I think people think a desktop should be like windows xp and complain that Gnome is different.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Strange, I found most of those things easier with KDE and Gnome V2. What do you consider polished and efficient? Minimal chrome?
edg5000 3y ago
Gnome on Debian is very different than Gnome on Ubuntu though, if you are referring to Debian, which likely uses Gnome defaults, I agree that it is suboptimal. On Debian Gnome does not have the dock visible unless the application menu is opened. Also there are considerable less settings available in the Settings app. Two problems with Gnome I have is the Software center getting stuck on the loading screen, this has been going on for a while and is really a shame, since it provides easy access to a vast collection of awesome software. I think KDE's store is better in this regard. Although I use Muon myself. The other problem is that I could not use it with a touchscreen. The build-in onscreen keyboard cannot be disabled and sadly is lacking many basic keys. I had to use KDE on my touchscreen Linux devices for that reason alone. Also the Contacts app has a little shortcoming where it does not handle the business field in contacts as expected. Maybe I should get involved myself rather than complaining about it. It is awesome software though and I use it daily.
pjmlp 3y ago
Because being based on C, and the GPL license, meant that in the old days it won the adoption war against KDE. If you as a user or developer, wanted a full stack experience regarding UNIX desktops, the choice was pretty much either GNOME or KDE, as everything else were plain window managers without any GUI development stack (think desktop frameworks in macOS/NeXT/Windows/MacOS/... sense). Nowadays the reality is quite different regarding licenses and all of that, and there are lightweight desktops with frameworks like XFCE as well. However, the path to adoption is a long one, and all major distributions are still GNOME focused and changing to KDE or something else is a major effort than rewriting their distribution specific changes to a newer GNOME version. Regarding Windows 11, we keep hearing similar remarks since Windows XP, it has hardly changed.
ankurdhama 3y ago
> less efficient workflows Lots of people talk about this but I am not sure what does this even mean? I open programs, work inside the program and switch between programs. All of this is allowed by Gnome or any other DE/WM. But somehow people always use the word "workflow" and how a particular DE/WM doesn't support their "workflow".
epakai 3y ago
I mostly agree, but one place where Gnome excels is touch screens. Other DEs simply don't have the features necessary to run on a slate with no keyboard. UI elements are sized appropriately, on-screen keyboard is workable, gestures are there. Little else has made effort in these areas. But that's only really suited for consumption devices, not productivity.

petepete 3y ago

> So it's not the right choice for developers, power users, basic users, users with acccessibility needs. But what's left? Oh come on, most people use it just fine without needing to complain about every last design choice. There are alternatives but for most people, most of the time, GNOME is more than enough. I'm a developer, I use it all day on desktop and laptop without the need for any extra config. I use one extension to hide the panel to avoid any risk of burn in on my oled monitor.

xeyownt 3y ago
Exactly my experience too for 10-ish years. I will never want more than what Gnome provides and when I want less, I usually go for xfce.
- happymellon 3y ago
  On my personal devices I have to install the system tray extension, because Steam, but apart from that Gnome works far better than anything else including OSX for me.
  - pshirshov 3y ago
    Until it doesn't. If you need accessibility support it won't work well. If you need multi-head 4k setup with fractional scaling it won't work well.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      Multihead 4K works better for me than MacOS. I can't even change the volume of the external speakers on MacOS.
      - pshirshov 3y ago
        Does it work for you in Gnome Wayland session? Do you use fractional scaling? Do you use any XWayland applications, like VSCode or Jetbrains products?
        happymellon 3y ago
        Oh, so your problem isn't with Gnome but X applications, having issues with fractional scaling and X itself not supporting different scaling amounts on different monitors? Per screen fractional scaling has been available for years (even in Electron), if these particular applications don't support it, it's not because they can't but won't. Although VSCode does claim to support it. > Do you use fractional scaling? I don't because I bought an appropriate monitor. As I said, Gnome works great for me. MacOS doesn't let me change the volume of my external speakers. MacOS doesn't let me move windows between virtual desktops without having to switch to the touchpad. MacOS doesn't let me easily snap a window to either the left or right side of the screen or even maximize it with the keyboard. It's lacking so many really basic features.
        pshirshov 3y ago
        Nope, my problem is with Gnome. Plasma has implemented proper fractional scaling for XWayland. I guess if Plasma works but Gnome doesn't - the problem isn't about the apps, it's about the compositor.

foul 3y ago

I can think only of deception on purpose. Like, they have a million users without any attention span so distros need something that sells itself as a streamlined package without deviations for UX with pro helpdesk support, so that DEs or whatever else with volunteers in development and support can work without being suffocated by triaging absurd bugs and suggestion of new features never backed by a pull request (and even then, a good FLOSS project should add them to the test harness, change docs, etc). So maybe GNOME/systemd out-of-the-box wouldn't make the luser scream for malfunction at first sight. I don't know.

stereolambda 3y ago

Large FOSS projects are social movements, because they have to attract contributors somehow, and they reflect the wider culture. I read modern GNOME as a symptom of longue duree (historiographical term, meaning something that exists for a long time in the unspoken background) of Jobesian thinking that people caught as users and designers. There might be all sorts of economic justifications for mainstream proprietary tech doing this, but for a well-funded FOSS project it has to had become a cultural thing.

npteljes 3y ago

>Debian+KDE is great for non-technical end users, who mostly are used to and want win95 on steroids. I'd agree, but Debian is just not packaged in a convenient way. Even I had trouble figuring it out, and I consider myself a Linux enthusiast. For this reason, my recommendation would rather be Zorin, which literally aims to be "windows-like" to ease the transition from it. And frankly, to me, as someone who knows their way around Linux, is also attractive. It's a neat bundle of capable software that's tuned for out of the box experience.

marcthe12 3y ago

I believe the maintainer of the Fedora KDE spin actually commented on this on reddit some months back. Basically KDE unlike GNOME is a packaging nightmare. Too many packages with a few having lots of deps. On top of that the release schedule has zero alignment to any non rolling release (and multiple since all package can be grouped in 3 differents suites with their own schedule) which usually ends up have outdated KDE. Infact the best KDE experience is tumbleweed or arch which are both rolling releases. GNOME has no such issue. I belive KDE is adjusting the release schedule to try to solve this(I think they will switching to a 6 month schedule after plasma 6)

worksonmine 3y ago

> A Debian+KDE is great for non-technical end users I really want to like KDE but it just feels unstable and janky. I don't do much customization, just dark theme and arrange the bar to remove most plugins and set their positions. These settings are sometimes reset after reboot and I'd have to rearrange the bar. Probably a me problem, but a non-technical user moving to Linux will blame Linux for this and not KDE. If I suggest Linux to anyone Gnome is my first choice unless I know they want to tweak their DE. I guess the distros have similar reasons. Breakage between versions is better than reboots.

yoyohello13 3y ago

Gnome’s “intended” workflow of using many workspaces and heavy use of key binds is very efficient. I’ve been using it for several years and actually learned how to use it the way the developers intended and it’s way more efficient and polished than every other desktop environment. Frankly, I think people think a desktop should be like windows xp and complain that Gnome is different.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
Strange, I found most of those things easier with KDE and Gnome V2. What do you consider polished and efficient? Minimal chrome?

edg5000 3y ago

Gnome on Debian is very different than Gnome on Ubuntu though, if you are referring to Debian, which likely uses Gnome defaults, I agree that it is suboptimal. On Debian Gnome does not have the dock visible unless the application menu is opened. Also there are considerable less settings available in the Settings app. Two problems with Gnome I have is the Software center getting stuck on the loading screen, this has been going on for a while and is really a shame, since it provides easy access to a vast collection of awesome software. I think KDE's store is better in this regard. Although I use Muon myself. The other problem is that I could not use it with a touchscreen. The build-in onscreen keyboard cannot be disabled and sadly is lacking many basic keys. I had to use KDE on my touchscreen Linux devices for that reason alone. Also the Contacts app has a little shortcoming where it does not handle the business field in contacts as expected. Maybe I should get involved myself rather than complaining about it. It is awesome software though and I use it daily.

pjmlp 3y ago

Because being based on C, and the GPL license, meant that in the old days it won the adoption war against KDE. If you as a user or developer, wanted a full stack experience regarding UNIX desktops, the choice was pretty much either GNOME or KDE, as everything else were plain window managers without any GUI development stack (think desktop frameworks in macOS/NeXT/Windows/MacOS/... sense). Nowadays the reality is quite different regarding licenses and all of that, and there are lightweight desktops with frameworks like XFCE as well. However, the path to adoption is a long one, and all major distributions are still GNOME focused and changing to KDE or something else is a major effort than rewriting their distribution specific changes to a newer GNOME version. Regarding Windows 11, we keep hearing similar remarks since Windows XP, it has hardly changed.

ankurdhama 3y ago

> less efficient workflows Lots of people talk about this but I am not sure what does this even mean? I open programs, work inside the program and switch between programs. All of this is allowed by Gnome or any other DE/WM. But somehow people always use the word "workflow" and how a particular DE/WM doesn't support their "workflow".

epakai 3y ago

I mostly agree, but one place where Gnome excels is touch screens. Other DEs simply don't have the features necessary to run on a slate with no keyboard. UI elements are sized appropriately, on-screen keyboard is workable, gestures are there. Little else has made effort in these areas. But that's only really suited for consumption devices, not productivity.