8 ms·

A Quick Overview of Matrix

44 points by julietteeb 3y ago

Fabeltjeskrant 3y ago
What about beeper.com?
the_gipsy 3y ago
The "bridges" really work well if you can host your own and "puppeteer" your account. I only use Element on my phone now and all whatsapp messages come through without issues. I am also spending some time hacking around some terminal matrix client. I don't have to worry about some corporation pulling the rug.
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  Does that mean I could set a bot to login to my account and post as me, all from the comfort of an IRC client? Any more deets?
  - the_gipsy 3y ago
    I don't know if you can "puppeteer" a matrix account (that puppeteers a whatsapp account) from an IRC account/client. The matrix TUI client I am using is iamb[1]. It's still early WIP, but usable. [1]: https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb
rwxer 3y ago
One of the really nice features of Matrix is the IRC bridge to Libera Chat. Libera Chat is the current home of open source projects' community and support channels. Earlier it was necessary to set up an IRC bouncer if you needed a persistent connection to the IRC server. But now you can just create an account on Matrix and join a Libera IRC channel from Matrix. The Matrix bridge functions like an IRC gateway on Matrix. It's a great way to stay logged into the IRC channels and ensure that you don't miss any messages when you are away.
- abstractbeliefs 3y ago
  Sadly, I think Matrix's bridge onto Libera might soon be curtailed - they've not been good neighbors for some time and it's eroding the usability of IRC for IRC natives. https://libera.chat/news/matrix-irc-bridge-updates https://libera.chat/news/matrix-irc-bridge-updates
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    On the Matrix side, we've put a lot of effort into being good neighbours, fwiw - e.g. recently this massive refactor at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/1669 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/166... to allow the matrix<->irc bridge to be restarted without reconnecting all its IRC users (the single biggest complaint we ever had about the bridge in terms of eroding usability of IRC for IRC natives). Sadly it looks like it wasn't considered sufficient, based on https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling.
    - abstractbeliefs 3y ago
      I'm not sure how many years you have been bridging in but with recent developments like Matrix logging all chats (including a second bot after the first one was banned) it sounds like too little too late.
      - Arathorn 3y ago
        Matrix does not "log all chats". There were some IRC channels which had been explicitly configured by their chanops in the past to be "world readable" in Matrix parlance (i.e. opting into being publicly viewable), which meant that they showed up on archive.matrix.org. It seems this caused concern because archive.matrix.org didn't have UI to explain why a given channel was visible (i.e. "chanop Bob explicitly set this channel to be world-readable on the Matrix bridge on Jan 1 2017") - and so after we got complaints from ircops last weekend we immediately took the service down to double-check and add the UI to spell out what's going on (and give the IRC channels & networks in question a chance to mark themselves as non-world-readable if that's what they want). As I said, we're trying to be good neighbours, but there's a lot of ill will flying around.
solarkraft 3y ago
Does anyone else find it funny that the flagship SDK (JS) is largely undocumented? And that the UX of all clients in existence leaves a lot to be desired (yes, Element X is the best one but it lacks features for now)? Matrix is annoyingly hard to get into, IMO. It has gotten better in the last years, but it isn't exactly good yet. It hurts because I want it to be good so that everyone can switch. I plan to talk about this with the Element developers at CCCamp.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  It's probably fair to say that matrix-rust-sdk is the flagship now, not matrix-js-sdk. Yes, js-sdk's doc isn't exhaustive, but http://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-js-sdk/stable/ http://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-js-sdk/stable/ and guides like https://matrix.org/docs/legacy/usage-of-the-matrix-js-sdk/ https://matrix.org/docs/legacy/usage-of-the-matrix-js-sdk/ tend to be pretty good. In terms of "Matrix sucks because not all clients have good UX" - you could say the same about the Web. Meanwhile Element X kicks ass, and is rapidly coming up to feature parity - to the extent that we're going to soft-launch it on the App Store tomorrow. > I plan to talk about this with the Element developers at CCCamp. No need; we have the message loud and clear... :|
  - 3np 3y ago
    This comment could be read as "Element X solves the major UX issues and we're on top of things", in which case no, the message did not get through.
    - hammyhavoc 3y ago
      Pull requests welcome.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - 3np 3y ago
        We have a few pending already (some for a couple of years since last follow-up) and Arathorn saying "don't come talk to us about it" doesn't inspire confidence _at all_.
preya2k 3y ago
I'm beginning to doubt whether Matrix can actually succeed. It's a great idea, and there are great people involved, but there's just so many different problems/features that it's still lacking. And the progress is painstakingly slow. I really want them to succeed and I still try to get everyone on board and evangelize all my clients to join Matrix – but the truth is, I'm loosing hope. Example: About a year ago, "Threads" went out of Beta and the feature is pretty much still unusable, because Notifications get stuck all the time. Even though there was a lot of progress to fix this – it's still not up to par with other Messengers.
- doubled112 3y ago
  This is roughly my feeling too. I've been running my own home server for a while now, and talked a friend or two into doing the same. We use it daily and it is "good enough" for us, but I'd never try to sell it to somebody that isn't already interested. Notifications seem get a little better, then get a little worse again, and then the cycle repeats. Unless I've watched the system notification come in, I just ignore it. Definitely not perfect. I've also managed to get into a state where it'll notify me about messages from days ago that are marked as read, and never clear without a logout. I was really excited about the possibility of third party clients, but in general, they all have some big missing features and/or show stopping bugs.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  Agreed that the stuck notification problems with threads is a real embarrassment. However, I wouldn't give up on the whole project over one nasty class of bugs (which i am very hopeful we're close to nailing...)
  - gtvwill 3y ago
    Why not? One nasty class of bugs can make any project entirely unusable. In business it's all it takes to make me use your competitor over you. As a dev you need to not fall into the trap of lumping users problems and faults off onto your own scale of what is or isn't important. This will ruin your business. You as the dev/on the inner circle have bias to what you think is or isn't important. If you disregard something as small but your users are like yea it's small but it's a major problem that makes the platform unusable your gonna drop users quicker than you can blink all the while asking yourself why? Dangerous position, be wary of judging your clients problems importance on your own scale. Matrix will fail with that attitude. You won't focus on what your consumers want.
dolmen 3y ago
Very quick.
dolmen 3y ago
I recommend to have a look at the "Matrix 2.0" presentation that happened at FOSDEM 2023 in February: https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/matrix20/ https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/matrix20/
aaviator42 3y ago
All my server back-ends send me alerts and logs via matrix, which I can check easily from any device, including my phone :) https://github.com/aaviator42/MatrixTexter https://github.com/aaviator42/MatrixTexter
- mxuribe 3y ago
  I'm like you @aaviator42! :-) I've been using matrix for chat since it first came out...and then stumbled upon using it as my system notifications tool...it was one of those "duh!" use-case moments for me. So by using matrix, there's one less app/client i have to use for notifications; all human-to-human chats go into relevant rooms, and system notifications go into dedicated "notifications" room(s). Matrix is truly so versatile! Now that i see that yours uses PHP, i can share with friends and colleagues who have the same idea as you and I, but prefer leveraging PHP on their infrastructure. My code happens to use python [0]...but the beauty of all of this is that - with open source - users get to choose their preference! Kudos to you! [0] = https://github.com/mxuribe/howler https://github.com/mxuribe/howler
  - aaviator42 3y ago
    Hi! Nice to meet my counterpart from another universe! So many similarities between our READMEs! :) I agree, FOSS is such a beautiful concept, that allows us to do cool stuff like this. :D Kudos to you as well!
    - mxuribe 3y ago
      Likewise on all points!! :-D Also, i hope you don't mind, i was so impressed with your app, that i am now pointing to it from my repo: https://github.com/mxuribe/howler#q-im-not-a-fan-of-python-are-there-alternatives-built-in-other-languages-or-other-environments-or-platforms https://github.com/mxuribe/howler#q-im-not-a-fan-of-python-a...
- justaj 3y ago
  This is almost completely broken on non-GCF (Google Services) phones. I've seen message notifications arriving 12 hours (!!!) later. For those users it's recommended to use Matrix clients alongside something like https://ntfy.sh/ https://ntfy.sh/ , which sends push messages to your phone. However, one could then also ask: What is the need for Matrix in that case? I suppose end-to-end encryption would be one argument, but you could also encrypt message (contents) client side with something like GPG. So, I'm left wondering what really is the benefit of Matrix for those users.
palata 3y ago
I used IRC for 15 years, and then was quite into Matrix (and their bridging) for a while. I used Matrix for 2 years, until I realised that almost all of the channels I used were on IRC. Moving back to IRC, I realised how heavy Matrix seems to be. I understand IRC is very old and lacking a few features, but Matrix seems like a completely overkill solution. It seems so complex that the only way to write a third-party client is by using the official libs, and even that seems so hard that they keep suggesting that Element is the only good alternative (while acknowledging that it still has pretty big UX issues, after all those years). Also I remember reading from one of the leads that performance was not their main concern. They would rather work on academic features than make sure the protocol is very efficient. That's a problem for me. At this point I am not sure if Matrix can succeed...
- panick21_ 3y ago
  If you restrict yourself to features that IRC has, then there are lots of clients that are fine. Also, Matrix Client-Server API is just HTTP calls, it isn't really that hard. But using the SDK gives you things like encryption and other features.
- matricaria 3y ago
  I still wonder if I’m doing thing wrong, if so, please tell me. For me, IRC just doesn’t work. I can’t receive messages when I’m offline. I can’t read what other wrote while i was offline. These for me are just plain red flags. I also can’t search if somebody else asked the same question before. There is no good mobile (iOS) app. I tried Palaver, it’s ok but every other chat app is much better. Lastly, IRC is really hard to set up and log into. And I would call myself pretty tech savvy. This just eliminates it from ever becoming mainstream.
  - progval 3y ago
    If the networks you are connecting to don't support persistence / chat history (most don't, because of the technical and legal complications), then you need to either setup a bouncer (pounce, Soju, ZNC), pay someone to host it for you (chat.sr.ht, IRCCloud), or find a free host you feel you can trust (plenty of results when googling "free IRC bouncer")
plantroon 3y ago
I got Element on my desktop, Schildichat on my phone. Bridged to all other messengers I used. IRC is handled with Heisenbridge. Before this I used weechat+bitlbee. Matrix is better, more capable, but way heavier, on both the server side and client side. I even dabbled in XMPP but in the end just bridged it into Matrix as it's not much better by itself (though it also supports extensions and can connect to many IM networks). The clients are buggy, especially on Android, they overheat the phone for no reason (when in use. Notifications are handled via push so background usage is great). But XMPP wasn't better in any other way so Matrix remains my go-to solution.

44 points by julietteeb 3y ago

What about beeper.com?

The "bridges" really work well if you can host your own and "puppeteer" your account. I only use Element on my phone now and all whatsapp messages come through without issues. I am also spending some time hacking around some terminal matrix client. I don't have to worry about some corporation pulling the rug.

tentacleuno 3y ago
Does that mean I could set a bot to login to my account and post as me, all from the comfort of an IRC client? Any more deets?
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  I don't know if you can "puppeteer" a matrix account (that puppeteers a whatsapp account) from an IRC account/client. The matrix TUI client I am using is iamb[1]. It's still early WIP, but usable. [1]: https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb

rwxer 3y ago

One of the really nice features of Matrix is the IRC bridge to Libera Chat. Libera Chat is the current home of open source projects' community and support channels. Earlier it was necessary to set up an IRC bouncer if you needed a persistent connection to the IRC server. But now you can just create an account on Matrix and join a Libera IRC channel from Matrix. The Matrix bridge functions like an IRC gateway on Matrix. It's a great way to stay logged into the IRC channels and ensure that you don't miss any messages when you are away.

abstractbeliefs 3y ago
Sadly, I think Matrix's bridge onto Libera might soon be curtailed - they've not been good neighbors for some time and it's eroding the usability of IRC for IRC natives. https://libera.chat/news/matrix-irc-bridge-updates https://libera.chat/news/matrix-irc-bridge-updates
- Arathorn 3y ago
  On the Matrix side, we've put a lot of effort into being good neighbours, fwiw - e.g. recently this massive refactor at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/1669 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/pull/166... to allow the matrix<->irc bridge to be restarted without reconnecting all its IRC users (the single biggest complaint we ever had about the bridge in terms of eroding usability of IRC for IRC natives). Sadly it looks like it wasn't considered sufficient, based on https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling.
  - abstractbeliefs 3y ago
    I'm not sure how many years you have been bridging in but with recent developments like Matrix logging all chats (including a second bot after the first one was banned) it sounds like too little too late.
    - Arathorn 3y ago
      Matrix does not "log all chats". There were some IRC channels which had been explicitly configured by their chanops in the past to be "world readable" in Matrix parlance (i.e. opting into being publicly viewable), which meant that they showed up on archive.matrix.org. It seems this caused concern because archive.matrix.org didn't have UI to explain why a given channel was visible (i.e. "chanop Bob explicitly set this channel to be world-readable on the Matrix bridge on Jan 1 2017") - and so after we got complaints from ircops last weekend we immediately took the service down to double-check and add the UI to spell out what's going on (and give the IRC channels & networks in question a chance to mark themselves as non-world-readable if that's what they want). As I said, we're trying to be good neighbours, but there's a lot of ill will flying around.

solarkraft 3y ago

Does anyone else find it funny that the flagship SDK (JS) is largely undocumented? And that the UX of all clients in existence leaves a lot to be desired (yes, Element X is the best one but it lacks features for now)? Matrix is annoyingly hard to get into, IMO. It has gotten better in the last years, but it isn't exactly good yet. It hurts because I want it to be good so that everyone can switch. I plan to talk about this with the Element developers at CCCamp.

Arathorn 3y ago
It's probably fair to say that matrix-rust-sdk is the flagship now, not matrix-js-sdk. Yes, js-sdk's doc isn't exhaustive, but http://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-js-sdk/stable/ http://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-js-sdk/stable/ and guides like https://matrix.org/docs/legacy/usage-of-the-matrix-js-sdk/ https://matrix.org/docs/legacy/usage-of-the-matrix-js-sdk/ tend to be pretty good. In terms of "Matrix sucks because not all clients have good UX" - you could say the same about the Web. Meanwhile Element X kicks ass, and is rapidly coming up to feature parity - to the extent that we're going to soft-launch it on the App Store tomorrow. > I plan to talk about this with the Element developers at CCCamp. No need; we have the message loud and clear... :|
- 3np 3y ago
  This comment could be read as "Element X solves the major UX issues and we're on top of things", in which case no, the message did not get through.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    Pull requests welcome.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - 3np 3y ago
      We have a few pending already (some for a couple of years since last follow-up) and Arathorn saying "don't come talk to us about it" doesn't inspire confidence _at all_.

preya2k 3y ago

I'm beginning to doubt whether Matrix can actually succeed. It's a great idea, and there are great people involved, but there's just so many different problems/features that it's still lacking. And the progress is painstakingly slow. I really want them to succeed and I still try to get everyone on board and evangelize all my clients to join Matrix – but the truth is, I'm loosing hope. Example: About a year ago, "Threads" went out of Beta and the feature is pretty much still unusable, because Notifications get stuck all the time. Even though there was a lot of progress to fix this – it's still not up to par with other Messengers.

doubled112 3y ago
This is roughly my feeling too. I've been running my own home server for a while now, and talked a friend or two into doing the same. We use it daily and it is "good enough" for us, but I'd never try to sell it to somebody that isn't already interested. Notifications seem get a little better, then get a little worse again, and then the cycle repeats. Unless I've watched the system notification come in, I just ignore it. Definitely not perfect. I've also managed to get into a state where it'll notify me about messages from days ago that are marked as read, and never clear without a logout. I was really excited about the possibility of third party clients, but in general, they all have some big missing features and/or show stopping bugs.
Arathorn 3y ago
Agreed that the stuck notification problems with threads is a real embarrassment. However, I wouldn't give up on the whole project over one nasty class of bugs (which i am very hopeful we're close to nailing...)
- gtvwill 3y ago
  Why not? One nasty class of bugs can make any project entirely unusable. In business it's all it takes to make me use your competitor over you. As a dev you need to not fall into the trap of lumping users problems and faults off onto your own scale of what is or isn't important. This will ruin your business. You as the dev/on the inner circle have bias to what you think is or isn't important. If you disregard something as small but your users are like yea it's small but it's a major problem that makes the platform unusable your gonna drop users quicker than you can blink all the while asking yourself why? Dangerous position, be wary of judging your clients problems importance on your own scale. Matrix will fail with that attitude. You won't focus on what your consumers want.

dolmen 3y ago

Very quick.

dolmen 3y ago

I recommend to have a look at the "Matrix 2.0" presentation that happened at FOSDEM 2023 in February: https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/matrix20/ https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/matrix20/

aaviator42 3y ago

All my server back-ends send me alerts and logs via matrix, which I can check easily from any device, including my phone :) https://github.com/aaviator42/MatrixTexter https://github.com/aaviator42/MatrixTexter

mxuribe 3y ago
I'm like you @aaviator42! :-) I've been using matrix for chat since it first came out...and then stumbled upon using it as my system notifications tool...it was one of those "duh!" use-case moments for me. So by using matrix, there's one less app/client i have to use for notifications; all human-to-human chats go into relevant rooms, and system notifications go into dedicated "notifications" room(s). Matrix is truly so versatile! Now that i see that yours uses PHP, i can share with friends and colleagues who have the same idea as you and I, but prefer leveraging PHP on their infrastructure. My code happens to use python [0]...but the beauty of all of this is that - with open source - users get to choose their preference! Kudos to you! [0] = https://github.com/mxuribe/howler https://github.com/mxuribe/howler
- aaviator42 3y ago
  Hi! Nice to meet my counterpart from another universe! So many similarities between our READMEs! :) I agree, FOSS is such a beautiful concept, that allows us to do cool stuff like this. :D Kudos to you as well!
  - mxuribe 3y ago
    Likewise on all points!! :-D Also, i hope you don't mind, i was so impressed with your app, that i am now pointing to it from my repo: https://github.com/mxuribe/howler#q-im-not-a-fan-of-python-are-there-alternatives-built-in-other-languages-or-other-environments-or-platforms https://github.com/mxuribe/howler#q-im-not-a-fan-of-python-a...
justaj 3y ago
This is almost completely broken on non-GCF (Google Services) phones. I've seen message notifications arriving 12 hours (!!!) later. For those users it's recommended to use Matrix clients alongside something like https://ntfy.sh/ https://ntfy.sh/ , which sends push messages to your phone. However, one could then also ask: What is the need for Matrix in that case? I suppose end-to-end encryption would be one argument, but you could also encrypt message (contents) client side with something like GPG. So, I'm left wondering what really is the benefit of Matrix for those users.

palata 3y ago

I used IRC for 15 years, and then was quite into Matrix (and their bridging) for a while. I used Matrix for 2 years, until I realised that almost all of the channels I used were on IRC. Moving back to IRC, I realised how heavy Matrix seems to be. I understand IRC is very old and lacking a few features, but Matrix seems like a completely overkill solution. It seems so complex that the only way to write a third-party client is by using the official libs, and even that seems so hard that they keep suggesting that Element is the only good alternative (while acknowledging that it still has pretty big UX issues, after all those years). Also I remember reading from one of the leads that performance was not their main concern. They would rather work on academic features than make sure the protocol is very efficient. That's a problem for me. At this point I am not sure if Matrix can succeed...

panick21_ 3y ago
If you restrict yourself to features that IRC has, then there are lots of clients that are fine. Also, Matrix Client-Server API is just HTTP calls, it isn't really that hard. But using the SDK gives you things like encryption and other features.
matricaria 3y ago
I still wonder if I’m doing thing wrong, if so, please tell me. For me, IRC just doesn’t work. I can’t receive messages when I’m offline. I can’t read what other wrote while i was offline. These for me are just plain red flags. I also can’t search if somebody else asked the same question before. There is no good mobile (iOS) app. I tried Palaver, it’s ok but every other chat app is much better. Lastly, IRC is really hard to set up and log into. And I would call myself pretty tech savvy. This just eliminates it from ever becoming mainstream.
- progval 3y ago
  If the networks you are connecting to don't support persistence / chat history (most don't, because of the technical and legal complications), then you need to either setup a bouncer (pounce, Soju, ZNC), pay someone to host it for you (chat.sr.ht, IRCCloud), or find a free host you feel you can trust (plenty of results when googling "free IRC bouncer")

plantroon 3y ago

I got Element on my desktop, Schildichat on my phone. Bridged to all other messengers I used. IRC is handled with Heisenbridge. Before this I used weechat+bitlbee. Matrix is better, more capable, but way heavier, on both the server side and client side. I even dabbled in XMPP but in the end just bridged it into Matrix as it's not much better by itself (though it also supports extensions and can connect to many IM networks). The clients are buggy, especially on Android, they overheat the phone for no reason (when in use. Notifications are handled via push so background usage is great). But XMPP wasn't better in any other way so Matrix remains my go-to solution.