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Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Why do we allow businesses to socialize their losses and privatize their profits? Nob

Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Why do we allow businesses to socialize their losses and privatize their profits? Nobody batted an eye when the last administration created an additional 3T in deficit. Investing in Americans education is single handedly the best investment America can make as a country. I rather see bad business models fail and watch educated Americans fill in the gaps.

gruez 3y ago
>Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Why do we allow businesses to socialize their losses and privatize their profits? Which loan forgiveness program are you talking about? The PPP loans was explicitly designed from the outset to be forgiven, if they were used for payroll. In the end it was a roundabout way for the government to ensure people continued to get paid during lockdowns, not a way to "socialize their losses and privatize their profits".
sanderjd 3y ago
You're right I didn't have a problem with it in 2020 when those loans intended to keep businesses from permanently shuttering were forgiven. But I would certainly dislike the same policy now. Things are super different today than they were three years ago...
adventured 3y ago
> Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Well that's obviously false. I had a problem with it. And if you dared to say it during the pandemic, you were likely to get stoned by the wildly emotional pandemic mob. The solution to the cost of education is the US, is to realize the cost somewhere, ie make someone actually responsible for the fact that very young adults with next to zero credit / income / responsibility are borrowing rather insane sums of money they can't actually afford to borrow. Society can debate who gets to be responsible (banks, universities, taxpayers, borrowers), someone has to be, otherwise the upward spiral (of debt) will just continue until it becomes an outsized economic threat (it's getting there). For decades the can has been kicked down the road intentionally, nobody wants to take responsibility. Biden and the Democrat approach is just more debt via loan forgiveness, which will result in an even bigger loan forgiveness after that. It's identical to the healthcare cost problem in the US. The Democrats want to solve healthcare via universal healthcare, and they want to pretend it can be done without fixing the cost problem. They never talk about dramatically reducing the cost of healthcare, and how many millions of jobs need to be vaporized to do it, and how many medical professionals need to take a big pay cut to do it. The gravy train has to end, and that means millions of nurses, doctors, hospital workers get slashed pay; millions of related industry jobs vanish (in insurance, medtech, pharma, et al.), and the middle class and higher incomes that go with them. Big education - the government borrowing pact with universities and their freewheeling ability to spend - is a gravy train for admin and universities generally, and has been for decades. It has to end just the same as big healthcare's gravy train has to end. Salaries have to be smashed, jobs have to be destroyed en masse, everything has to be squeezed, cut, slashed. Which is exactly how most of Europe manages their healthcare systems - tight rationing, tight controls.
- lom888 3y ago
  Removing the bankruptcy exemption from student loans as was the status quo prior to the 1980s solves this. The lenders then have a vested interest in ensuring that their lendees generate enough income to pay off the loans.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
foogazi 3y ago
> Investing in Americans education is single handedly the best investment America can make as a country. Loan forgiveness is not an investment in education
- oddtuple 3y ago
  Yes, yes it is
  - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
    Having loan forgiveness policy is an investment in education. One time loan forgiving of people who already gotten education is not. A thought upon budget allotment and condition for loan forgiveness every year is significantly better than spending it in one go for publicity.
    - oddtuple 3y ago
      Why not both?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > One time loan forgiving of people who already gotten education is not. The one time forgiveness was adopted roughly simultaneously with reforms to lending and, particularly, repayment programs designed to ameliorate the creation of the same debt problem, it wasn’t a policy adopted by itself in a vacuum.
      - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
        I am not fully aware of the context and I couldn't even find it. Could you send some links for "reforms to lending and, particularly, repayment programs designed to ameliorate the creation of the same debt problem"?
  - robomartin 3y ago
    >> Loan forgiveness is not an investment in education > Yes, yes it is No. It most definitely is not. It's paying off a bunch of loans that people freely agreed to accept in exchange for their chosen degree. It's the abdication of all responsibility. It's the creation of a society where commitments mean nothing. It is also rewarding behavior that isn't constructive and, devoid of consequences, is caustic. Plenty of us have taken-on these commitments and worked hard for decades making good on our agreement and paying off the loans. What entitles this generation to behave as children when they should behave as adults? How about we pay off half of everyone's mortgages then and call it an investment? I guarantee that would have far greater impact than the student loan bailout? And, BTW, after you pay off my mortgage, I get to keep living in my house forever. Because, well, if we pay off someone's student loan/s, they get to keep the degree and use it to make money. The whole thing is laughable. Want to fix student loans? Get government out of that business ASAP. The minute loans don't have that guarantee, the cost of education will drop precipitously. The other thing that is important is to remove non-degree coursework as graduation requirements. Someone going for an engineering degree has to spend about one full year on coursework having nothing to do with engineering. One way to look at this is that, in the US, 25% of your student loan is for shit that is not going to help get you hired. Or that 25% of your loan isn't for engineering coursework. Being that this is a requirement for graduation, this means that this unnecessary 25% of the cost of the degree is being imposed on every single student. That's wrong.
nradov 3y ago
I have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. State governments shouldn't have forced private businesses to shut down in the first place. And if state governments chose to do so anyway, the federal government shouldn't have covered the cost of their bad policy decisions.
- oddtuple 3y ago
  I’m glad they did, we were in a pandemic.

gruez 3y ago

>Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Why do we allow businesses to socialize their losses and privatize their profits? Which loan forgiveness program are you talking about? The PPP loans was explicitly designed from the outset to be forgiven, if they were used for payroll. In the end it was a roundabout way for the government to ensure people continued to get paid during lockdowns, not a way to "socialize their losses and privatize their profits".

sanderjd 3y ago

You're right I didn't have a problem with it in 2020 when those loans intended to keep businesses from permanently shuttering were forgiven. But I would certainly dislike the same policy now. Things are super different today than they were three years ago...

adventured 3y ago

> Nobody seemed to have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. Well that's obviously false. I had a problem with it. And if you dared to say it during the pandemic, you were likely to get stoned by the wildly emotional pandemic mob. The solution to the cost of education is the US, is to realize the cost somewhere, ie make someone actually responsible for the fact that very young adults with next to zero credit / income / responsibility are borrowing rather insane sums of money they can't actually afford to borrow. Society can debate who gets to be responsible (banks, universities, taxpayers, borrowers), someone has to be, otherwise the upward spiral (of debt) will just continue until it becomes an outsized economic threat (it's getting there). For decades the can has been kicked down the road intentionally, nobody wants to take responsibility. Biden and the Democrat approach is just more debt via loan forgiveness, which will result in an even bigger loan forgiveness after that. It's identical to the healthcare cost problem in the US. The Democrats want to solve healthcare via universal healthcare, and they want to pretend it can be done without fixing the cost problem. They never talk about dramatically reducing the cost of healthcare, and how many millions of jobs need to be vaporized to do it, and how many medical professionals need to take a big pay cut to do it. The gravy train has to end, and that means millions of nurses, doctors, hospital workers get slashed pay; millions of related industry jobs vanish (in insurance, medtech, pharma, et al.), and the middle class and higher incomes that go with them. Big education - the government borrowing pact with universities and their freewheeling ability to spend - is a gravy train for admin and universities generally, and has been for decades. It has to end just the same as big healthcare's gravy train has to end. Salaries have to be smashed, jobs have to be destroyed en masse, everything has to be squeezed, cut, slashed. Which is exactly how most of Europe manages their healthcare systems - tight rationing, tight controls.

lom888 3y ago
Removing the bankruptcy exemption from student loans as was the status quo prior to the 1980s solves this. The lenders then have a vested interest in ensuring that their lendees generate enough income to pay off the loans.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

foogazi 3y ago

> Investing in Americans education is single handedly the best investment America can make as a country. Loan forgiveness is not an investment in education

oddtuple 3y ago
Yes, yes it is
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  Having loan forgiveness policy is an investment in education. One time loan forgiving of people who already gotten education is not. A thought upon budget allotment and condition for loan forgiveness every year is significantly better than spending it in one go for publicity.
  - oddtuple 3y ago
    Why not both?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > One time loan forgiving of people who already gotten education is not. The one time forgiveness was adopted roughly simultaneously with reforms to lending and, particularly, repayment programs designed to ameliorate the creation of the same debt problem, it wasn’t a policy adopted by itself in a vacuum.
    - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
      I am not fully aware of the context and I couldn't even find it. Could you send some links for "reforms to lending and, particularly, repayment programs designed to ameliorate the creation of the same debt problem"?
- robomartin 3y ago
  >> Loan forgiveness is not an investment in education > Yes, yes it is No. It most definitely is not. It's paying off a bunch of loans that people freely agreed to accept in exchange for their chosen degree. It's the abdication of all responsibility. It's the creation of a society where commitments mean nothing. It is also rewarding behavior that isn't constructive and, devoid of consequences, is caustic. Plenty of us have taken-on these commitments and worked hard for decades making good on our agreement and paying off the loans. What entitles this generation to behave as children when they should behave as adults? How about we pay off half of everyone's mortgages then and call it an investment? I guarantee that would have far greater impact than the student loan bailout? And, BTW, after you pay off my mortgage, I get to keep living in my house forever. Because, well, if we pay off someone's student loan/s, they get to keep the degree and use it to make money. The whole thing is laughable. Want to fix student loans? Get government out of that business ASAP. The minute loans don't have that guarantee, the cost of education will drop precipitously. The other thing that is important is to remove non-degree coursework as graduation requirements. Someone going for an engineering degree has to spend about one full year on coursework having nothing to do with engineering. One way to look at this is that, in the US, 25% of your student loan is for shit that is not going to help get you hired. Or that 25% of your loan isn't for engineering coursework. Being that this is a requirement for graduation, this means that this unnecessary 25% of the cost of the degree is being imposed on every single student. That's wrong.

nradov 3y ago

I have an issue with giving loan forgiveness to businesses. State governments shouldn't have forced private businesses to shut down in the first place. And if state governments chose to do so anyway, the federal government shouldn't have covered the cost of their bad policy decisions.

oddtuple 3y ago
I’m glad they did, we were in a pandemic.