4 ms·

"[...] recruited athletes, legacies, those on the dean’s interest list, and children of faculty and staff (ALDCs). Among white admits, over 43% are ALDC." Near

"[...] recruited athletes, legacies, those on the dean’s interest list, and children of faculty and staff (ALDCs). Among white admits, over 43% are ALDC." Nearly half of white students get (got) a VIP lane into Harvard.

mchanson 3y ago
[flagged]
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Ohh, now what are the odds a black person you meet at Harvard are deserving of their place in the world? Anyway, it's not really a coin flip. Per this article 25% of legacies would make it on their own. And why aren't athletes deserving of their place in the world? And odds are staff children have a goodish chance of getting in on their own.
- cpr 3y ago
  I resemble that remark! Hey, I was one of the "get some fresh middle class white nobodies from the San Diego area for diversity" legacies in 1972. ;-)
- TigeriusKirk 3y ago
  I would argue that athletes are deserving in this framing. They were outstanding enough in a particular way to earn a spot at the most prestigious school in the country.
  - rory 3y ago
    I think that's fair so long as you exclude e.g. sailing "athletes."
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    Because you're good at football you get free entry into a university? I can understand a football school or something, but why do they need to get into Harvard? Just because I'm an excellent coder (I wish!) should not mean I can get into the New York Philharmonic Orchestra.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      Harvard's admission goal is to find the most successful people in the world, not the most successful academics. Top athletes are very successful, so yes, they probably deserve admission.
      - KingOfCoders 3y ago
        "not the most successful academics" I totally agree. What I do not agree is that athletes should have a VIP lane to admission. Either they make it in like everyone else or the rules for everyone need to be changed to reflect the "most successful people".
        HDThoreaun 3y ago
        The rules largely do reflect "most successful people". Harvard commonly admits people who are spectacular in non academic ways. Athletes are just the tip of the iceberg, they'll admit people with successful business, they'll admit students who lead popular political movements, they'll accept legacies because they're very likely to be successful. Harvard has never just accepted the top test scores for this exact reason. It just turns out the academic success is a good predictor for general success and there aren't tons of 18 year olds with tons of general success so a lot of the admits are from academic success.
        KingOfCoders 3y ago
        "It just turns out the academic success is a good predictor for general success" It turns out that this is not the case and a myth. "Last month, accountancy firm Ernst & Young, one of the UK’s biggest graduate employers, announced that they were to scrap a requirement of at least a 2:1 from its graduate application process. The company claimed there was no evidence that academic success at university was linked to achievement in professional assessments." Guardian, Sep 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2015/sep/01/graduate-jobs-employers-degree-result https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2015/sep/01/graduate-job... Others like PwC followed. The one thing that Harvard is useful for are the connections you make in your time at Harvard, start something with the people you meet there and other people from Harvard you meet that help you with your career. That is what you pay for. And Harvard is in the game for the money.
- anovikov 3y ago
  What do you mean "undeserving"? What's bad or morally wrong about being a person born into money vs a "successful" one who, as it almost always the case, scammed his way into it? From the group of wealthy people i know, heirs are the best ones from a moral side. Next on are the group of crypto con artists. Then all the rest...
  - DrBenCarson 3y ago
    The discussion is about keeping college admission purely based on merit.
rory 3y ago
I'd be curious to know how much the ~25pt asian-white SAT score gap is explained by ALDC students. In other words-- how much harder is it for a non-ALDC asian student to get into Harvard than a non-ALDC white student?
dswalter 3y ago
Nearly half of admitted white students at Harvard got in via a VIP lane, which is really high. But that doesn't necessarily tell the story for what it would be like to apply to Harvard as a white student. There is a subtle yet important distinction in this.
john014 3y ago
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mr_00ff00 3y ago
I would argue that recruited athletes maybe get a pass on being a “VIP lane.” Sure, college is about academics, but someone who spends a lot of time mastering a sport (and is gifted at it) isn’t that different from someone gifted at math and working at it. I feel like HN may disagree, but not all athletes are 2.0 GPA students who relied purely on height to get in somewhere and have never worked hard.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  Nobody doubts that atheletes often had to train hard. But you actually posted the counterargument by yourself: > Sure, college is about academics Exactly: college is about academics and not sports, so athlets should only get a "VIP lane" for academic achievement/potential and not for athletic achievement/potential.
  - mr_00ff00 3y ago
    I think the average accepted GPA at top business schools for MBAs is all the argument I need to see that academics has as much influence on career success as athletic achievement. The CEOs are the future are more people skills related than anything else. If Harvard was all purely academically driven people, it would just create professors. Not exactly the college goal.
    - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
      > If Harvard was all purely academically driven people, it would just create professors. Not exactly the college goal. I am rather used to the German academic culture, but from this perspective I rather say: this is by the self-understanding of universities exactly the central purpose of colleges/universities (the rest is considered to be side gigs).
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I really disagree that Harvard is about academics. Harvard is about creating the next generation of American elite. They're looking for students who will have successful careers. I don't have data but reasonable to assume that athletes at the top of their game will find success in other areas. Same reason they don't just accept the students with the highest test scores.
bluecalm 3y ago
You might say nearly half of white student got a VIP lane but that doesn't mean it's easier to get into Harvard when you are white. In fact if you remove legacy admissions from the pool and calculate the % of admitted people among those who needed to go through the full process you will see the numbers are heavily stacked against white and Asians. It's not like you can choose to be in a group that benefits from those legacy admissions when you're white. That's why the race based rhetoric is so dangerous to fairness - just because it's easier to some people who share some physical characteristics with you doesn't mean it's in any way easier for you. Part of the political spectrum wants to even turn it against you.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  No it might make it harder for everyone getting into Harvard b/c slots are filled up by children of Harvard staff. If you think this is about skin color, they have already won.
  - bluecalm 3y ago
    Btw I think private schools should admit whoever they want as long as they don't discriminate by race/gender/religious affiliation/sexuality and other features specified by law. If they want to be a private club for children of their wealthy donors - let's be it. The problem is elsewhere: degree should matter less. It's better to focus on attacking this one. It's just can't be good that decisions you or your parents made before you're even 18 shape your whole professional life in such radical way.
    - KingOfCoders 3y ago
      "degree should matter less" It already does. Large companies no longer require degrees. I think it started with EY https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/pwc-says-graduates-no-longer-need-at-least-2-1-degree-to-work-at-firm https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/pwc-says-gr...
john0015 3y ago
[dead]

mchanson 3y ago

[flagged]

oh_sigh 3y ago
Ohh, now what are the odds a black person you meet at Harvard are deserving of their place in the world? Anyway, it's not really a coin flip. Per this article 25% of legacies would make it on their own. And why aren't athletes deserving of their place in the world? And odds are staff children have a goodish chance of getting in on their own.
cpr 3y ago
I resemble that remark! Hey, I was one of the "get some fresh middle class white nobodies from the San Diego area for diversity" legacies in 1972. ;-)
TigeriusKirk 3y ago
I would argue that athletes are deserving in this framing. They were outstanding enough in a particular way to earn a spot at the most prestigious school in the country.
- rory 3y ago
  I think that's fair so long as you exclude e.g. sailing "athletes."
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  Because you're good at football you get free entry into a university? I can understand a football school or something, but why do they need to get into Harvard? Just because I'm an excellent coder (I wish!) should not mean I can get into the New York Philharmonic Orchestra.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Harvard's admission goal is to find the most successful people in the world, not the most successful academics. Top athletes are very successful, so yes, they probably deserve admission.
    - KingOfCoders 3y ago
      "not the most successful academics" I totally agree. What I do not agree is that athletes should have a VIP lane to admission. Either they make it in like everyone else or the rules for everyone need to be changed to reflect the "most successful people".
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        The rules largely do reflect "most successful people". Harvard commonly admits people who are spectacular in non academic ways. Athletes are just the tip of the iceberg, they'll admit people with successful business, they'll admit students who lead popular political movements, they'll accept legacies because they're very likely to be successful. Harvard has never just accepted the top test scores for this exact reason. It just turns out the academic success is a good predictor for general success and there aren't tons of 18 year olds with tons of general success so a lot of the admits are from academic success.
        KingOfCoders 3y ago
        "It just turns out the academic success is a good predictor for general success" It turns out that this is not the case and a myth. "Last month, accountancy firm Ernst & Young, one of the UK’s biggest graduate employers, announced that they were to scrap a requirement of at least a 2:1 from its graduate application process. The company claimed there was no evidence that academic success at university was linked to achievement in professional assessments." Guardian, Sep 2015 https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2015/sep/01/graduate-jobs-employers-degree-result https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2015/sep/01/graduate-job... Others like PwC followed. The one thing that Harvard is useful for are the connections you make in your time at Harvard, start something with the people you meet there and other people from Harvard you meet that help you with your career. That is what you pay for. And Harvard is in the game for the money.
anovikov 3y ago
What do you mean "undeserving"? What's bad or morally wrong about being a person born into money vs a "successful" one who, as it almost always the case, scammed his way into it? From the group of wealthy people i know, heirs are the best ones from a moral side. Next on are the group of crypto con artists. Then all the rest...
- DrBenCarson 3y ago
  The discussion is about keeping college admission purely based on merit.

rory 3y ago

I'd be curious to know how much the ~25pt asian-white SAT score gap is explained by ALDC students. In other words-- how much harder is it for a non-ALDC asian student to get into Harvard than a non-ALDC white student?

dswalter 3y ago

Nearly half of admitted white students at Harvard got in via a VIP lane, which is really high. But that doesn't necessarily tell the story for what it would be like to apply to Harvard as a white student. There is a subtle yet important distinction in this.

john014 3y ago

[dead]

mr_00ff00 3y ago

I would argue that recruited athletes maybe get a pass on being a “VIP lane.” Sure, college is about academics, but someone who spends a lot of time mastering a sport (and is gifted at it) isn’t that different from someone gifted at math and working at it. I feel like HN may disagree, but not all athletes are 2.0 GPA students who relied purely on height to get in somewhere and have never worked hard.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
Nobody doubts that atheletes often had to train hard. But you actually posted the counterargument by yourself: > Sure, college is about academics Exactly: college is about academics and not sports, so athlets should only get a "VIP lane" for academic achievement/potential and not for athletic achievement/potential.
- mr_00ff00 3y ago
  I think the average accepted GPA at top business schools for MBAs is all the argument I need to see that academics has as much influence on career success as athletic achievement. The CEOs are the future are more people skills related than anything else. If Harvard was all purely academically driven people, it would just create professors. Not exactly the college goal.
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    > If Harvard was all purely academically driven people, it would just create professors. Not exactly the college goal. I am rather used to the German academic culture, but from this perspective I rather say: this is by the self-understanding of universities exactly the central purpose of colleges/universities (the rest is considered to be side gigs).
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I really disagree that Harvard is about academics. Harvard is about creating the next generation of American elite. They're looking for students who will have successful careers. I don't have data but reasonable to assume that athletes at the top of their game will find success in other areas. Same reason they don't just accept the students with the highest test scores.

bluecalm 3y ago

You might say nearly half of white student got a VIP lane but that doesn't mean it's easier to get into Harvard when you are white. In fact if you remove legacy admissions from the pool and calculate the % of admitted people among those who needed to go through the full process you will see the numbers are heavily stacked against white and Asians. It's not like you can choose to be in a group that benefits from those legacy admissions when you're white. That's why the race based rhetoric is so dangerous to fairness - just because it's easier to some people who share some physical characteristics with you doesn't mean it's in any way easier for you. Part of the political spectrum wants to even turn it against you.

KingOfCoders 3y ago
No it might make it harder for everyone getting into Harvard b/c slots are filled up by children of Harvard staff. If you think this is about skin color, they have already won.
- bluecalm 3y ago
  Btw I think private schools should admit whoever they want as long as they don't discriminate by race/gender/religious affiliation/sexuality and other features specified by law. If they want to be a private club for children of their wealthy donors - let's be it. The problem is elsewhere: degree should matter less. It's better to focus on attacking this one. It's just can't be good that decisions you or your parents made before you're even 18 shape your whole professional life in such radical way.
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    "degree should matter less" It already does. Large companies no longer require degrees. I think it started with EY https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/pwc-says-graduates-no-longer-need-at-least-2-1-degree-to-work-at-firm https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/pwc-says-gr...

john0015 3y ago

[dead]