8 ms·
> I'm talking about lifting them up, correcting the wrongs, reimbursing the damage done. I don't think people realize how dangerous trying to "repair" or "corr
by oceanplexian 3y ago
> I'm talking about lifting them up, correcting the wrongs, reimbursing the damage done.
I don't think people realize how dangerous trying to "repair" or "correct" history can actually be. It could literally go on for thousands of years, look at the Israeli's and Palestinians. While I'm fine if people who committed discriminatory acts are held accountable in the law, it's a period of time we should be ashamed of and need to stop revisiting.
In my opinion, the best way to respect people who were wronged is to let it go. Yes it will always be unfair, but people in history books are not "us". We are a different generation of human beings with the power to create the world we want to live in.
- tsimionescu 3y ago> In my opinion, the best way to respect people who were wronged is to let it go. Yes it will always be unfair, but people in history books are not "us". We are a different generation of human beings with the power to create the world we want to live in. Many people alive today in the USA were directly harmed by legal discrimination against black people. Explicit legal discrimination stopped in 1971, not in the history books. And of course, significant administrative discrimination continued long after, probably persisting today in some places.
- vore 3y agoHow would you feel on the other side of this? Given how recently discrimination was still legal, is it really great that you can shrug and say "well, tough tits I guess"?
- nwienert 3y agoI wasn’t admitted into better colleges while minority friends with worse grades and general resumes were. It upsets me that I was discriminated against. Should I pursue some reparations? How do you factor this in?
- ludditetech 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoYou can't attack others this aggressively on HN, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. Your comments in this thread were so egregious that I briefly banned your account - but your earlier contributions to HN have been fine, so I don't want to do that. If you could please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and comment in the intended spirit in the future, though, that would be good.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y agoMy great grandfather was enslaved and then murdered as part of systematic oppression of millions of people. Am I entitled to reparations?
- TexanFeller 3y ago> imagine if my mom was raped repeatedly, my dad whipped and hung from a bough Mom and dad is one thing, but no one alive today had that happen to their parents, so this is just emotional manipulation. For people alive today it was more like great great great grandparents. There are awful things that were done to blacks at scale in living memory, but nothing like what you're talking about.
- yawpitch 3y ago[flagged]
- Alupis 3y agoDiscrimination against Japanese, Chinese, Irish, German, Mexican, Native American and more are not "imaginary harms". Are we in favor of reparations for every group? Or is it just this one? Reparation talk is a way to buy votes - nothing more. It's a total non-starter if you dig into how you'd go about it... We can't pretend like handing people a pile of cash will suddenly solve all the issues the community endures today.
- justinclift 3y agoMaybe shrug and say "Well, I hope that's over now..."
- forgetfreeman 3y agoDangerous for who, exactly?
- pohl 3y ago[flagged]
- muricula 3y agoThe current Israel-Palestine conflict is actually less than 100 years old. The Israelis and Palestinians weren't fighting under the Ottomans, which lasted over 400 years.
- int_19h 3y agoMutual dislike and occasional violence was already there under the Ottomans, once substantial Jewish immigration to Palestine began in late 19th century.
- Sai_ 3y agoThink the reference is to the claims and counterclaims to Palestinian lands which go back thousands of years.
- fsckboy 3y agoif you're going to go back thousands of years, you're going to have to talk about Jewish lands again.
- ludditetech 3y ago[flagged]
- andrekandre 3y ago> We are a different generation of human beings with the power to create the world we want to live in. i get your point but i'm of two minds about it because tbh thats easy to say when one is on the advantaged side.... doesn't it make sense that nation-states that have done direct damage to communities should be held liable, just as individuals?
- rayiner 3y agoLots of people also say that from the not-advantaged side. Most Indians aren’t sitting around insisting on reparations for the $41 trillion Britain took from them. They understand that it’s futile to do so, and making that the goal will only leave them in poverty long term.
- shadowgovt 3y agoFWIW, when reparations are discussed, it is usually a reference to the fact that after the civil War, the government somehow found a way to scrape down in its pockets and compensate the slave owners for their "loss of property." One can I think reasonably ask how this government was able to find the resources to pay people for losing their slaves and not the resources to compensate slaves for the years of freedom stolen. Although it is almost certainly too late to reconcile that particular wrong directly as those slaves are now all dead.
- chii 3y agoPerhaps the payments were to appease the powerful slave owners so that another civil war does not happen. It was not done for some sort of moral duty or obligation. The slaves had no power, and this would not pose threat of civil unrest.
- shadowgovt 3y agoThis is a train of thought that appears to pull into the station of using civil unrest to balance the scales. After all, if the government only responds to power then power is the coin of the realm to purchase the justice one wants. Interesting, and worth considering the next time there's a riot.
- skinnymuch 3y agoPalestine’s stolen land is from only the 20th century. Not thousands of years. No I don’t think people getting their land stolen in the past 100 years is okay to let go. Same sort of people usually think Taiwan stealing the island from indigenous or America stealing Puerto Rico or Hawai’i is okay too. Stolen land is stolen land.
- johndhi 3y agoIs any land not stolen land?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bruce511 3y agoYes! [1] (Hey, you asked.) The ridiculousness of the reply enhances your argument though. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil
- concordDance 3y agoI think his point was clear enough: that almost all the places people lived used to belong to some other group back in time.
- speleding 3y agoAsk the Dutch :-) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder
- ropable 3y agoWith due respect, you've made a very poor argument here. The harms caused by many historical actions have significant, ongoing consequences to this day. You've stated that taking actions to "repair or correct" those harms can be "dangerous" without actually presenting any evidence for it. The idea of "letting it go" feels vey much like it's coming from a position of privilege. I'd be happy to discuss these ideas further if you would like to.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y agoI’m white, and my ancestors suffered through slavery and genocide. How much am I owed in reparations?
- nailer 3y agoI’m not sure why this is downvoted. Turkey with the slavs, Britain with Ireland, and many African countries profited greatly from slavery.
- luckydata 3y agothe last known victim of a lynching in the USA were Italians. https://lasc.libguides.com/mass-lynching-italian-americans#:~:text=Most%20people%20do%20not%20realize,rounded%20up%20by%20the%20hundreds https://lasc.libguides.com/mass-lynching-italian-americans#:.... I'm expecting my reparation checks anytime now.
- nailer 3y agoThe idea of punishing people for something their ancestors may or may not have done based on skin color is racism. Other commenters do not need to engage with you to refute this racism.
- peanutcrisis 3y agoYou're conflating pragmatism with "position of privilege". You're free to disagree whether "let it go" is ideal or not. However, assuming "privilege" here is just bad faith and discriminatory; you're making an unsubstantiated character judgement on the basis of someone's race or class. Clearly, people, regardless of their race or class, have the ability to observe, to evaluate evidence, and to think critically. This is not a quality that's exclusive to "sacred victims". Surely it's possible that someone's race and class could introduce blindspots to their perspective (which extends to "scared victims" as well), but assuming that to be the default flaw in someone's position as opposed to actually finding that flaw in that person's position is intellectually dishonest. Conversations about race breakdown because ideologues are more interested in enforcing their views as opposed to finding out the truth. Smear tactics like accusing someone of being blindsided by "privilege" is the modern day equivalent of writing off your opponents without actually addressing their actual points.
- LapsangGuzzler 3y agoThe United Kingdom essentially created what we consider to be modern day Israel. It wasn’t a sovereign nation going back thousands of years.
- efitz 3y agoThe Ottoman Empire controlled the region until about 1922. The British came in at that time and arbitrarily drew a line dividing the region into “Mandatory Palestine” and “Transjordan”. This lasted until 1948 and the creation of the modern state of Israel. For thousands of years people of several religions and cultures (Jewish, Muslim, Roman, Druze, Armenian) lived together in that area; like most such arrangements there weren’t clear lines that differentiated cultural groups. The lines on the map are and were always arbitrary. Same every time and every where the west has tried to draw lines on maps.
- achenet 3y agoyou should read a bit more about the history of that area.
- foogazi 3y ago> In my opinion, the best way to respect people who were wronged is to let it go. Let what go ? If someone was wronged by a corporation should they let it go ? Even forgetting slavery, black people were wronged for generations by the state, municipalities, armed forces, banks, schools, restaurants, law enforcement, sports teams - and these were not random one off situations but discrimination by a system of racists. A whole race collectively screwed over. They wouldn’t let people into restaurants based on skin color alone - no one considered the individual
- cturner 3y agoYou are reintroducing group guilt concepts, discussed higher in this thread. Groups do not have guilt, individuals do. When someone is wronged by a corporation, that is an individual. If you remain attracted to group guilt as being valid, some thought games. Does someone white who migrates to america thereby adopt guilt for wrongs? Does that person become liable due to the move? What about someone black who migrates? What about their child? Should the child be guilty or half guilty? Should the tax system be adjusted to compensate? What about descendants of former slave owners who are not american citizens? What if their parent was disinherited along the way? How about for gender issues? Does a man inherit responsibility for past wrongs done to women? If you accept group guilt or intergenerational guilt you are constructing a cast society, where people are defined by their lineage and physical characteristics, rather their actions as an individual. This entrenches social divisions and undermines individual agency and freedom. Western culture, nations and law are grounded in individual responsibility not group identity and are the better for it.
- foogazi 3y ago> You are reintroducing group guilt concepts Read my comment again, I never mentioned guilt.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y agoGroups have responsibility. Consider the opposing argument - groups have no responsibility for anything. Does that seem like a reasonable position? Consider an expansion of the argument - are there still situations in which one group consistently discriminates against and abuses another? People are already in castes, defined by their lineage and physical (and economic) characteristics. You don't break down the walls between castes by pretending they're not real.
- DonHopkins 3y agoYour opinion is noted. It's always the people who benefit from discrimination who want the people who suffer from it to just "let it go".
- rayiner 3y agoMost white Americans today did not “benefit from discrimination” against black Americans. Most white Americans come from families who weren’t even here during the time of slavery. And slavery hurt the vast majority of white Americans who were not slave owners, by driving down the market value of free farm labor. Slavery made a handful of landowners rich, but impoverished the south as a whole. At the turn of the 20th century, the median income in the south was half of what it was in the Midwest.
- DonHopkins 3y agoIt's sadly ironic and self defeating that they claim they don't benefit from discrimination (even though they do but delusionally refuse to acknowledge it), yet they keep on systematically and purposefully discriminating, and idiotically voting against their own best interests, like single payer health care, forgiving student loans, funding education, raising taxes on the wealthy, and ending corporate welfare. And for all their shrill protests about reverse discrimination and communist Democrats handing out welfare to black people for votes to keep them "on the plantation", the red states are MUCH more reliant on federal government handouts that the blue states have to pay for, BECAUSE of their "conservative" policy choices. https://apnews.com/article/north-america-business-local-taxes-ap-top-news-politics-2f83c72de1bd440d92cdbc0d3b6bc08c https://apnews.com/article/north-america-business-local-taxe... WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican leaders have spent months promoting the myth that red low-tax states are subsidizing blue high-tax states because of the deduction for state and local taxes. An Associated Press Fact Check finds it’s actually the other way around. High-tax, traditionally Democratic states (blue), subsidize low-tax, traditionally Republican states (red) — in a big way.
- rayiner 3y agoHow does any of that show that the average white American benefited from discrimination against black people?
- nielsbot 3y agoI think this is flawed thinking. For one thing it benefits everyone to help those who have been systematically disadvantaged. Also, respecting people = giving them needed material benefits not saying “I respect you” We need to keep revisiting the shameful times lest they are forgotten instead of forgetting about them and moving on.
- rpd9803 3y agoYeah I mean we said sorry, what more do those people want? \s
- luckydata 3y agoHow far back do we go, right? I'm sure I'm the descendant of people that at some point were treated brutally by someone else, but it's far back enough that the memory has been lost. I'm all for fixing THE EFFECTS of racial discrimination in the US, but it can't be achieved by sclerotizing that incorrect view of life and dragging it into the future in perpetuity.