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>The best ICE still isn't cool weird metaphor. Given that ICE isn't going anywhere for some time I wish that people would realize that the choices are never a

by serf 3y ago

>The best ICE still isn't cool weird metaphor. Given that ICE isn't going anywhere for some time I wish that people would realize that the choices are never a binary "perfectly clean EV" vs. "Coal-powered tree crusher" -- advancement in ICEs still represent an environmental benefit to the world. The Honda Monkey is one of the most efficient ICE vehicles that a consumer could hope to find, but i'll bite : where might I pick up a Tokai Challenger? The way towards EV isn't by demonizing the things that have made the world tick throughout every industrialized society, it's by incentivizing the use of alternatives.

dieselgate 3y ago
Thanks for mentioning this, could not have worded it better. I see EVs being shipped/distributed all the time on top of ICE semi-trucks
- photonerd 3y ago
  And the goal is to make those EV Semis… they just aren’t yet
ant6n 3y ago
Where will u pick up that Honda Monkey with 100L tank? …see how that is a non argument? Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. There’s basically no option for them except perhaps e-fuels, but given the 5x energy use compared to EVs, they will have extremely limited scope.
- jebarker 3y ago
  > Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. Is this actually possible? i.e. are there actually enough resources and production capacity to replace all ICE vehicles on the road in two decades. I remember hearing Elon Musk suggest it'd take about double that.
  - ThrowAway1922A 3y ago
    It’s completely impossible when you bring trains, planes, and boats into the conversation. It’s almost surely impossible to replace the global fleet of cars in that time too.
    - lambda 3y ago
      Don't forget walking, bicycles, e-bikes, electric motorcycles, working from home, buses, etc. Yes, we are behind schedule, and we can't get there just by replacing ICE cars one for one with electric cars, but there is plenty more we can do. Living in walkable neighborhoods. Demanding better infrastructure for more than just cars. Working from home if you have a desk job. And of course personal transport is only part of it. Electricity generation. Industrial precesses like steelmaking, and concrete will need to go carbon neutral as well. Electric cars will be part of it, though. Those infrastructure changes won't happen overnight, we need all possible options at our disposal, it's not either/or, it's "yes, and." But it can be done.
      - jebarker 3y ago
        From my narrow viewpoint in the US mountain west I think the future will look like increase in all those green technologies you mention alongside a legacy of ICE vehicles still in use. There are numerous reasons, some more valid than others, that will stop people transitioning away from ICE. So we'll need tech to counteract that effect. A complete transition to EV is naively optimistic in my opinion.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    Given that cars rarely live longer than twenty years and we manage to increase the number of cars every year, I'd say it's very possible.
    - jebarker 3y ago
      The world isn't stopping buying ICE cars today though. It will be a gradual transition.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 3y ago
  You can pick up a Honda Monkey with a 5L tank and get the same efficient fuel mileage as they did, just have to fill up more often.
  - caseyohara 3y ago
    Actually much better fuel efficiency than they did because of the weight of all the fuel they were lugging around. They achieved 91 mpg. A stock 125cc Monkey is claimed to get 169 mpg, but actual user reports are closer to 120 mpg. https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/monkey https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/monkey
  - ant6n 3y ago
    And you can use solar power for an EV (car, motorbike, train, …), just need to charge more often.
    - DwnVoteHoneyPot 3y ago
      You try going 4,183km to the top of Norway on solar.
- ilyt 3y ago
  > Where will u pick up that Honda Monkey with 100L tank? …see how that is a non argument? Yes, the lack of monkeys with 100L tank is not an argument; base model will get better fuel efficiency. > Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. Pretty sure monkey + the fuel for entirety of its lifetime would still produce less CO2 than EV over lifetime + whatever amount of solar panels and power storage needed to keep it powered.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Don't be too sure. Solar panels can power more than just batteries of a vehicle. Regardless, public transit or a bicycle would be better than all of them
  - nl 3y ago
    > Pretty sure monkey + the fuel for entirety of its lifetime would still produce less CO2 than EV over lifetime + whatever amount of solar panels and power storage needed to keep it powered. Doubtful for a similarly sized vehicle. For comparable sized cars, EVs are always better than the ICE equivalent including all production: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-defini...
    - ant6n 3y ago
      Also, by 2050, effectively everything needs to be co2 neutral, that includes electricity generation and manufacturing.
undersuit 3y ago
The biggest achievement in ICE is turning them off. The technology that's being put in cars now to turn off the engine while idling, electronic acceleration assist, and idling some cylinders when possible just trash the minor improvements we're eking out of wasting 65% or more of the energy in hydrocarbons.
sacnoradhq 3y ago
Wrong on so many levels. Moral relativism of past acts cannot justify the unjustifiable. ICEs are banned in 2040 in dozens of countries. There will be no world and no air to breathe if climate change isn't solved by removing carbon from the air with haste. It is also difficult for people to admit that their lifestyles are unsustainable when they feel entitled to continue their reckless behaviors when they feel they deserve it. People cannot be allowed the choice of killing us all, so leadership requires banning certain things without a vote that are necessary for the survival of the species and of the planet. But this won't happen and the human race will go extinct because of pearl clutching and an inability to make tough choices. And so people keep doing burn-outs in their Ford Mustangs and sucking down triple cheeseburgers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...

by serf 3y ago

dieselgate 3y ago

Thanks for mentioning this, could not have worded it better. I see EVs being shipped/distributed all the time on top of ICE semi-trucks

photonerd 3y ago
And the goal is to make those EV Semis… they just aren’t yet

ant6n 3y ago

Where will u pick up that Honda Monkey with 100L tank? …see how that is a non argument? Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. There’s basically no option for them except perhaps e-fuels, but given the 5x energy use compared to EVs, they will have extremely limited scope.

jebarker 3y ago
> Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. Is this actually possible? i.e. are there actually enough resources and production capacity to replace all ICE vehicles on the road in two decades. I remember hearing Elon Musk suggest it'd take about double that.
- ThrowAway1922A 3y ago
  It’s completely impossible when you bring trains, planes, and boats into the conversation. It’s almost surely impossible to replace the global fleet of cars in that time too.
  - lambda 3y ago
    Don't forget walking, bicycles, e-bikes, electric motorcycles, working from home, buses, etc. Yes, we are behind schedule, and we can't get there just by replacing ICE cars one for one with electric cars, but there is plenty more we can do. Living in walkable neighborhoods. Demanding better infrastructure for more than just cars. Working from home if you have a desk job. And of course personal transport is only part of it. Electricity generation. Industrial precesses like steelmaking, and concrete will need to go carbon neutral as well. Electric cars will be part of it, though. Those infrastructure changes won't happen overnight, we need all possible options at our disposal, it's not either/or, it's "yes, and." But it can be done.
    - jebarker 3y ago
      From my narrow viewpoint in the US mountain west I think the future will look like increase in all those green technologies you mention alongside a legacy of ICE vehicles still in use. There are numerous reasons, some more valid than others, that will stop people transitioning away from ICE. So we'll need tech to counteract that effect. A complete transition to EV is naively optimistic in my opinion.
- adrianN 3y ago
  Given that cars rarely live longer than twenty years and we manage to increase the number of cars every year, I'd say it's very possible.
  - jebarker 3y ago
    The world isn't stopping buying ICE cars today though. It will be a gradual transition.
DwnVoteHoneyPot 3y ago
You can pick up a Honda Monkey with a 5L tank and get the same efficient fuel mileage as they did, just have to fill up more often.
- caseyohara 3y ago
  Actually much better fuel efficiency than they did because of the weight of all the fuel they were lugging around. They achieved 91 mpg. A stock 125cc Monkey is claimed to get 169 mpg, but actual user reports are closer to 120 mpg. https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/monkey https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/monkey
- ant6n 3y ago
  And you can use solar power for an EV (car, motorbike, train, …), just need to charge more often.
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 3y ago
    You try going 4,183km to the top of Norway on solar.
ilyt 3y ago
> Where will u pick up that Honda Monkey with 100L tank? …see how that is a non argument? Yes, the lack of monkeys with 100L tank is not an argument; base model will get better fuel efficiency. > Anyway, in the next 20 years, virtually all ICE vehicles need to go away. Pretty sure monkey + the fuel for entirety of its lifetime would still produce less CO2 than EV over lifetime + whatever amount of solar panels and power storage needed to keep it powered.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Don't be too sure. Solar panels can power more than just batteries of a vehicle. Regardless, public transit or a bicycle would be better than all of them
- nl 3y ago
  > Pretty sure monkey + the fuel for entirety of its lifetime would still produce less CO2 than EV over lifetime + whatever amount of solar panels and power storage needed to keep it powered. Doubtful for a similarly sized vehicle. For comparable sized cars, EVs are always better than the ICE equivalent including all production: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-defini...
  - ant6n 3y ago
    Also, by 2050, effectively everything needs to be co2 neutral, that includes electricity generation and manufacturing.

undersuit 3y ago

The biggest achievement in ICE is turning them off. The technology that's being put in cars now to turn off the engine while idling, electronic acceleration assist, and idling some cylinders when possible just trash the minor improvements we're eking out of wasting 65% or more of the energy in hydrocarbons.

sacnoradhq 3y ago

Wrong on so many levels. Moral relativism of past acts cannot justify the unjustifiable. ICEs are banned in 2040 in dozens of countries. There will be no world and no air to breathe if climate change isn't solved by removing carbon from the air with haste. It is also difficult for people to admit that their lifestyles are unsustainable when they feel entitled to continue their reckless behaviors when they feel they deserve it. People cannot be allowed the choice of killing us all, so leadership requires banning certain things without a vote that are necessary for the survival of the species and of the planet. But this won't happen and the human race will go extinct because of pearl clutching and an inability to make tough choices. And so people keep doing burn-outs in their Ford Mustangs and sucking down triple cheeseburgers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...