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Tech workers need to unionize everywhere and create staunch opposition to this kind of garbage. We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best, and we

Tech workers need to unionize everywhere and create staunch opposition to this kind of garbage. We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best, and we have a responsibility to lead here. Doctors won't harvest organs to sell. Pharmacists won't make you poison. Engineers shouldn't make you encryption backdoors.

derelicta 3y ago
I'd love an union mouvement for IT workers. We have a small trade union in Switzerland that represents our interests but like for most other countries, engineers rarely see themselves as blue collars.
- camgunz 3y ago
  I look at it more like the ABA (attorneys) or the AMA (doctors) in the US. Those organizations have enormous political power, and I think tech workers could easily hang in that echelon. I say unionize because I just like unions, but either way.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > look at it more like the ABA (attorneys) or the AMA (doctors) in the US These are trade groups. Not unions. There's a meaningful difference. Unions for tech don't make sense, particularly in a world of remote work. Trade groups, on the other hand, do.
    - derelicta 3y ago
      Why does it not make sense? Remote workers can join an union too.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        It’s too easy to scalp, or for an unencumbered overseas competitor to take your chips. When offices resembled factories there was at least a capital expense to be leveraged.
        camgunz 3y ago
        Long way to go, but that's what international solidarity is for. [0]: https://aflcio.org/issues/global-worker-rights https://aflcio.org/issues/global-worker-rights [1]: https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/international-solidarity https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/international-solidarit...
  - pdpi 3y ago
    And, like attorneys and medical doctors, we could really do with having a clear system of professional ethics.
LatteLazy 3y ago
Unions exist to represent and advance their members rights, which is good. They don't exist to pick up other social or political issues. When they try it is usually a mess because there is no good chance they will pick the "right" side, because it distracts from their actual mission and because it saps their support.
- camgunz 3y ago
  You'll then probably be surprised to learn the AFL-CIO lists such causes as: - Criminal Justice Reform - Health Care - Quality Education - Sexual Harassment - Social Security and Retirement - Tax and Budget Policy - Gender Equality on its issues page [0], or that the NEA has a whole section for Racial & Social Justice [1], or that the CWA has a whole section for Human Rights [2]. I don't think there's any reason that if tech workers all joined the CWA that the CWA couldn't then lobby against encryption backdoors. [0]: https://aflcio.org/issues https://aflcio.org/issues [1]: https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/racial-social-justice https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/racial-social-just... [2]: https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/human-rights https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/human-rights
  - LatteLazy 3y ago
    I am not really surprised I'm afraid. Unions often DO get involved in these things, they make no progress, divide their members and it prevents them actually doing their actual day to day job. Has the AFL-CIO balanced the national budget yet? No. And wasting time on that has meant less attention has been paid to membership or issues where they could have made some difference. We saw the same thing with the Amazon unionisation attempts last year: what started as (a broadly supported and popular and achievable ) campaign to get better wages, less terrible conditions and some job security rapidly morphed into making Amazon go carbon neutral, fixing racism in america and end global warming. I would like all those things. But if you want me to put my job on the line our goals need to be achievable, and frankly beneficial to me directly. And the Amazon unionisation fizzled pretty rapidly. Again, if people want to join campaign groups (EFF etc) then that is their right. But that's just not what a union is for (any more than the EFF should represent me in salary negotiations). To be clear in the specific case of the AFL-CIO, they are NOT a union (at least not one of workers). So it makes sense for them to campaign on whatever they and their members feel is important.
iamabanana6 3y ago
> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best. Maybe about the technology and code. But definitely not about effects on society.
- pdpi 3y ago
  On the flipside, policy makers don't really understand the societal effects of a policy like this either. They're narrowly focused on one specific perceived benefit (a tool for law enforcement), while ignoring all other consequences.
- camgunz 3y ago
  Sure, that's why there's other seats at the table. But we need one too.
amelius 3y ago
> we're the elite Nice thought, except most of us are morally no better than expensive prostitutes. > Doctors won't harvest organs to sell. Many doctors take bribe money from Big Pharma. Also some doctors do crazy stuff like recommend surgeries to fund a new swimming pool.
- camgunz 3y ago
  > Nice thought, except most of us are morally no better than expensive prostitutes. I don't find anything immoral about sex work, but that aside, I think one of the benefits of a professional organization would be to unlicense unethical actors like how doctors lose their licenses or attorneys are removed from the bar. The idea here is: - PA (prof. assoc.) says, "hey, we're not making encryption backdoors and we're not making tools to crack them available to governments and law enforcement" - PA lobbies against policies that would mandate encryption backdoors - PA lobbies for a law that says you must be licensed to distribute software at a certain scale - PA strips licenses from engineers working on encryption backdoors It's not perfect, you can probably imagine a lot of holes in it, but there are holes in everything (you can travel to a different medical regulatory regime, etc. etc.). The point isn't perfection, the point is to move society in the right direction rather than have this idiotic discussion about encryption literally every year. > Many doctors take bribe money from Big Pharma. Also some doctors do crazy stuff like recommend surgeries to fund a new swimming pool. Corruption happens, and I think it's clear humanity hasn't figured out how to deal with it. I don't think that's a reason not to organize though.
  - bsimpson 3y ago
    I wonder what the impact of making software development a profession would be, when you can easily teach yourself the mechanics of development with just a laptop from anywhere in the world. If there was a restriction that said Californian companies can only hire guilded developers, that might form an effective protest in this case in particular; but in general, I have a hard time imagining software development being contained in a bureaucratic box. Seems like it would add needless/expensive/frustrating bureaucracy without much obvious benefit.
  - 3y ago
cjs_ac 3y ago
You're thinking of self-regulating professional body rather than a trade union. Unions fight for pay and working conditions against employers, professional bodies represent the considered opinion of the profession and self-regulate their members, like doctors and barristers.
- sam0x17 3y ago
  A union could, if it chose to, take collective action to stop some particular lobbying effort, I just don't know if it's ever been done.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > A union could, if it chose to, take collective action to stop some particular lobbying effort For consumer benefit? No. It's technically possible. But it's simply not how the structure is framed or incentivized.
    - gbear605 3y ago
      Nurses unions have advocated in the US for policies like Medicare-for-all (single payer health care), so it’s not just possible but plausible. It would help them too (simplifying insurance makes nurses lives easier), but that’s equally true for many consumer protection bills in the tech space. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/552324-union-lobbies-congress-for-nurse-patient-protections-during-national-nurses/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/552324-union-lobbies-c...
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Nurses unions have advocated in the US for policies like Medicare-for-all The same way a mechanics' union would advocate for a car subsidy. I'm not saying it's disingenuous. Just that there is a commercial need served; I haven't seen a private sector union advocate for something meaningful that's revenue neutral.
- camgunz 3y ago
Eumenes 3y ago
This has to be a joke, like a union would earnestly evangelize privacy and data security practices. It would, no doubt, be captured by activists who care more about DEI and non technical pursuits, and bloat into a bureaucratic monster overnight. A union's job isn't to set industry standards and best practices. And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. There will always be engineers willing to build things that are 'unethical' ... because money and technical curiosity.
- gbear605 3y ago
  > And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. Contract with the unions could force the companies to not do so. The employees of tech companies have a lot of power that they’re not using right now.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    Part of unionizing is voluntarily giving up your individual bargaining power. Why would anyone that's one standard deviation or more above the mean developer trade that away?
    - camgunz 3y ago
      Because they get laid off in random staff cuts just like everyone else. When tech companies band together against tech workers, it doesn't matter how many Xs of an engineer you are.
      - hellojesus 3y ago
        You can always get another job, and being good at what you do should increase the probability of getting a new one. Everyone knows about business cycles. It's worth saving for the unexpected layoffs so that you can make it through. To reiterate, knowing I could not have a job tomorrow every single day is not enough justification for giving up my ability to self represent. Plus, I don't have to pay people for the privlidge of losing my independence.
OldManRyan 3y ago
I wouldn't trust most tech workers to pick roses let alone pick government policy.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best I certainly don't want this mantle. Everyone wins if, in layman terms, you can instead make it clear to the non-technical people what the issue is.
- gochi 3y ago
  That mantle is not something you can escape unless you opt into not having a career.
somsak2 3y ago
this is absolutely not something a union should be taking a stance on. fear of a union getting bloated and losing focus on improving working conditions and pay is one of the biggest reasons tech workers i talk to aren't too jazzed about unions in the first place. we don't even have one and already it's supposed to be opposed to some totally irrelevant legislation. i can see why people are hesitant to unionize
asimpletune 3y ago
People would freak out if software engineers formed a trade Union. I’m all for it personally. Kind of like the bar for lawyers.
Veen 3y ago
Yeah, what we really need is government by developer-king. If the Silicon Valley crowd ran countries, our lives would be so much better.
hospitalJail 3y ago
I don't need a union, I need a lobby. Let me know where to sign up.
- deathanatos 3y ago
  In this case, the EFF?
FpUser 3y ago
>"We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best" I did not know Narcissus still alive and hangs out here.
sbuk 3y ago
> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best, and we have a responsibility to lead here. Wow. That is possibly the most "orange site" type post I have ever read here. The minute you claim to be the elite is the minute the commons lose all trust in you. Appeal to authority is not the way to go here.
- camgunz 3y ago
  I think you're reading this as arrogance, which isn't an inefficient assumption around here, but I view it more from the responsibility lens. We're the ones who know about this stuff, and we need to do more to spread that knowledge, and to take control of our destiny as to what we'll build.

derelicta 3y ago

I'd love an union mouvement for IT workers. We have a small trade union in Switzerland that represents our interests but like for most other countries, engineers rarely see themselves as blue collars.

camgunz 3y ago
I look at it more like the ABA (attorneys) or the AMA (doctors) in the US. Those organizations have enormous political power, and I think tech workers could easily hang in that echelon. I say unionize because I just like unions, but either way.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > look at it more like the ABA (attorneys) or the AMA (doctors) in the US These are trade groups. Not unions. There's a meaningful difference. Unions for tech don't make sense, particularly in a world of remote work. Trade groups, on the other hand, do.
  - derelicta 3y ago
    Why does it not make sense? Remote workers can join an union too.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      It’s too easy to scalp, or for an unencumbered overseas competitor to take your chips. When offices resembled factories there was at least a capital expense to be leveraged.
      - camgunz 3y ago
        Long way to go, but that's what international solidarity is for. [0]: https://aflcio.org/issues/global-worker-rights https://aflcio.org/issues/global-worker-rights [1]: https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/international-solidarity https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/international-solidarit...
- pdpi 3y ago
  And, like attorneys and medical doctors, we could really do with having a clear system of professional ethics.

LatteLazy 3y ago

Unions exist to represent and advance their members rights, which is good. They don't exist to pick up other social or political issues. When they try it is usually a mess because there is no good chance they will pick the "right" side, because it distracts from their actual mission and because it saps their support.

camgunz 3y ago
You'll then probably be surprised to learn the AFL-CIO lists such causes as: - Criminal Justice Reform - Health Care - Quality Education - Sexual Harassment - Social Security and Retirement - Tax and Budget Policy - Gender Equality on its issues page [0], or that the NEA has a whole section for Racial & Social Justice [1], or that the CWA has a whole section for Human Rights [2]. I don't think there's any reason that if tech workers all joined the CWA that the CWA couldn't then lobby against encryption backdoors. [0]: https://aflcio.org/issues https://aflcio.org/issues [1]: https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/racial-social-justice https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/racial-social-just... [2]: https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/human-rights https://cwa-union.org/workers-rights/human-rights
- LatteLazy 3y ago
  I am not really surprised I'm afraid. Unions often DO get involved in these things, they make no progress, divide their members and it prevents them actually doing their actual day to day job. Has the AFL-CIO balanced the national budget yet? No. And wasting time on that has meant less attention has been paid to membership or issues where they could have made some difference. We saw the same thing with the Amazon unionisation attempts last year: what started as (a broadly supported and popular and achievable ) campaign to get better wages, less terrible conditions and some job security rapidly morphed into making Amazon go carbon neutral, fixing racism in america and end global warming. I would like all those things. But if you want me to put my job on the line our goals need to be achievable, and frankly beneficial to me directly. And the Amazon unionisation fizzled pretty rapidly. Again, if people want to join campaign groups (EFF etc) then that is their right. But that's just not what a union is for (any more than the EFF should represent me in salary negotiations). To be clear in the specific case of the AFL-CIO, they are NOT a union (at least not one of workers). So it makes sense for them to campaign on whatever they and their members feel is important.

iamabanana6 3y ago

> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best. Maybe about the technology and code. But definitely not about effects on society.

pdpi 3y ago
On the flipside, policy makers don't really understand the societal effects of a policy like this either. They're narrowly focused on one specific perceived benefit (a tool for law enforcement), while ignoring all other consequences.
camgunz 3y ago
Sure, that's why there's other seats at the table. But we need one too.

amelius 3y ago

> we're the elite Nice thought, except most of us are morally no better than expensive prostitutes. > Doctors won't harvest organs to sell. Many doctors take bribe money from Big Pharma. Also some doctors do crazy stuff like recommend surgeries to fund a new swimming pool.

camgunz 3y ago
> Nice thought, except most of us are morally no better than expensive prostitutes. I don't find anything immoral about sex work, but that aside, I think one of the benefits of a professional organization would be to unlicense unethical actors like how doctors lose their licenses or attorneys are removed from the bar. The idea here is: - PA (prof. assoc.) says, "hey, we're not making encryption backdoors and we're not making tools to crack them available to governments and law enforcement" - PA lobbies against policies that would mandate encryption backdoors - PA lobbies for a law that says you must be licensed to distribute software at a certain scale - PA strips licenses from engineers working on encryption backdoors It's not perfect, you can probably imagine a lot of holes in it, but there are holes in everything (you can travel to a different medical regulatory regime, etc. etc.). The point isn't perfection, the point is to move society in the right direction rather than have this idiotic discussion about encryption literally every year. > Many doctors take bribe money from Big Pharma. Also some doctors do crazy stuff like recommend surgeries to fund a new swimming pool. Corruption happens, and I think it's clear humanity hasn't figured out how to deal with it. I don't think that's a reason not to organize though.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  I wonder what the impact of making software development a profession would be, when you can easily teach yourself the mechanics of development with just a laptop from anywhere in the world. If there was a restriction that said Californian companies can only hire guilded developers, that might form an effective protest in this case in particular; but in general, I have a hard time imagining software development being contained in a bureaucratic box. Seems like it would add needless/expensive/frustrating bureaucracy without much obvious benefit.
- 3y ago

cjs_ac 3y ago

You're thinking of self-regulating professional body rather than a trade union. Unions fight for pay and working conditions against employers, professional bodies represent the considered opinion of the profession and self-regulate their members, like doctors and barristers.

sam0x17 3y ago
A union could, if it chose to, take collective action to stop some particular lobbying effort, I just don't know if it's ever been done.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > A union could, if it chose to, take collective action to stop some particular lobbying effort For consumer benefit? No. It's technically possible. But it's simply not how the structure is framed or incentivized.
  - gbear605 3y ago
    Nurses unions have advocated in the US for policies like Medicare-for-all (single payer health care), so it’s not just possible but plausible. It would help them too (simplifying insurance makes nurses lives easier), but that’s equally true for many consumer protection bills in the tech space. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/552324-union-lobbies-congress-for-nurse-patient-protections-during-national-nurses/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/552324-union-lobbies-c...
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Nurses unions have advocated in the US for policies like Medicare-for-all The same way a mechanics' union would advocate for a car subsidy. I'm not saying it's disingenuous. Just that there is a commercial need served; I haven't seen a private sector union advocate for something meaningful that's revenue neutral.
camgunz 3y ago

Eumenes 3y ago

This has to be a joke, like a union would earnestly evangelize privacy and data security practices. It would, no doubt, be captured by activists who care more about DEI and non technical pursuits, and bloat into a bureaucratic monster overnight. A union's job isn't to set industry standards and best practices. And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. There will always be engineers willing to build things that are 'unethical' ... because money and technical curiosity.

gbear605 3y ago
> And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. Contract with the unions could force the companies to not do so. The employees of tech companies have a lot of power that they’re not using right now.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Part of unionizing is voluntarily giving up your individual bargaining power. Why would anyone that's one standard deviation or more above the mean developer trade that away?
  - camgunz 3y ago
    Because they get laid off in random staff cuts just like everyone else. When tech companies band together against tech workers, it doesn't matter how many Xs of an engineer you are.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      You can always get another job, and being good at what you do should increase the probability of getting a new one. Everyone knows about business cycles. It's worth saving for the unexpected layoffs so that you can make it through. To reiterate, knowing I could not have a job tomorrow every single day is not enough justification for giving up my ability to self represent. Plus, I don't have to pay people for the privlidge of losing my independence.

OldManRyan 3y ago

I wouldn't trust most tech workers to pick roses let alone pick government policy.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best I certainly don't want this mantle. Everyone wins if, in layman terms, you can instead make it clear to the non-technical people what the issue is.

gochi 3y ago
That mantle is not something you can escape unless you opt into not having a career.

somsak2 3y ago

this is absolutely not something a union should be taking a stance on. fear of a union getting bloated and losing focus on improving working conditions and pay is one of the biggest reasons tech workers i talk to aren't too jazzed about unions in the first place. we don't even have one and already it's supposed to be opposed to some totally irrelevant legislation. i can see why people are hesitant to unionize

asimpletune 3y ago

People would freak out if software engineers formed a trade Union. I’m all for it personally. Kind of like the bar for lawyers.

Veen 3y ago

Yeah, what we really need is government by developer-king. If the Silicon Valley crowd ran countries, our lives would be so much better.

hospitalJail 3y ago

I don't need a union, I need a lobby. Let me know where to sign up.

deathanatos 3y ago
In this case, the EFF?

FpUser 3y ago

>"We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best" I did not know Narcissus still alive and hangs out here.

sbuk 3y ago

> We're the experts, we're the elite, we know what's best, and we have a responsibility to lead here. Wow. That is possibly the most "orange site" type post I have ever read here. The minute you claim to be the elite is the minute the commons lose all trust in you. Appeal to authority is not the way to go here.

camgunz 3y ago
I think you're reading this as arrogance, which isn't an inefficient assumption around here, but I view it more from the responsibility lens. We're the ones who know about this stuff, and we need to do more to spread that knowledge, and to take control of our destiny as to what we'll build.