21 ms·

Its getting worse everywhere: some things I've noticed: Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search (Particularly for locations wh

Its getting worse everywhere: some things I've noticed: Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search (Particularly for locations which open in apple maps) Although I'm mostly linux these days I went to install an alternative browser on a windows machine (using edge to download). I mentioned this in another post, but edge seems to watch for "chrome" or "firefox" downloads and politely reminds you that 'Edge is a great browser with added "trust of microsoft"' (A company who happen to be watching when you download a web browser). https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/22813733/microsoft-windows-edge-download-chrome-prompts https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/22813733/microsoft-window... Linux seems like an OS that is way more respectful.

kwanbix 3y ago
I really don't like to use Edge, and I don't like imposed changes, however if you read the article, it says that it can be turned off, or am I missing something? "Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that."
- post-it 3y ago
  And it'll inevitably turn itself back on after a mandatory upgrade, just like all the other user-hostile things you can turn off.
  - dizhn 3y ago
    Like android playstore notifications. You can turn them off sure. But you'll keep getting the notification that reminds you to turn them on. You only have to say yes once. But it dutifully asks you again and again if you say no to something. These things have become so yawn to me these days.
    - ljm 3y ago
      As has been the case for the past 10 years or so, UX consistently plays second-fiddle to analytics.
- lozenge 3y ago
  Sure, let's just all have to turn off a new setting every month.
- acomjean 3y ago
  The fact that it does it at all is the issue. Someone wrote code that literally is watching for users trying to download another browser. You usually download a browser just once, so turning if off isn't the issue. I suspect some of less technically inclined might abide by it and not download the new broswer. It almost seems like trial run for stopping the download. I can imagine "clippy" popping up an saying "I see your trying to download a browser, I'm sorry, I can't allow that"
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    The code itself likely comes from Google, not Microsoft. You can open Chrome and go download Edge/FF, IIRC, it only shows if chrome is the default browser. At least it used to a couple of years ago. Gmail still nags me about not using Chrome. I don't see the issue here.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  > or am I missing something? Yes, you're missing the fact that the user ALREADY set the default browser to something other than Edge, and Outhouse is now going to ignore your declared preference "for your convenience".
Angostura 3y ago
That’s a configurable suggestion in Safari. Go to Settings > Safari and turn off ‘Safari suggestions’
- 13of40 3y ago
  A non-dark-pattern for that would be a button on the first suggestion that lets you disable the suggestion permanently.
  - dr-detroit 3y ago
    [dead]
  - TX81Z 3y ago
    I think people have started using “dark pattern” to mean any UX decisions they disagree with. There is a hugely substantive difference between this feature being on by default and say, making a ”reject tracking” button in 2 point grey font. Dark patterns are primarily things that if presented equally would result in a different decision which often go directly against the users self interest. I don’t see that here.
    - lostmsu 3y ago
      The dark pattern is redirecting Google search to Apple maps.
      - TX81Z 3y ago
        Ok, I can agree there, I thought they meant the search bar suggestions which is maybe annoying but not misleading or controlling.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        How do I get this to happen? I turned them all on typed in an address, hit return, hit the button on Google and it opened in Google Maps. I'm on the latest version of iOS.
chankstein38 3y ago
Yeah I've complained on here about that as well. I'm not sure what they think they're doing but that made me want to stay as far away from Edge as possible. They really think they're going to win me over by creepily watching my downloads and popping stuff up the whole time I'm in the process of installing it?
- wholinator2 3y ago
  No, they know you hate it. They know we all hate it. But there's enough retired dads and old grandma's out there to more than make up for us. People like us have been saying things like this for decades, if they still don't understand how we feel then it's willful ignorance. They know we hate it and they don't care because it makes them money and that's the only thing that matters in the world anymore. I'm all for businesses businessing, but god damn I guess all the low hanging fruit got picked and now they have to keep stepping on ever increasing numbers of faces to get ever higher for their shareholders and portfolios.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    no, no, no.. it is not "retired dads" strawmen.. control of the installation process is a feature for management and security. It is not "nice" to say it in public apparently.. you the computer operator are not in control of the machine you are using. Your employer and their security people are in control of the machine that YOU are using.
- autoexec 3y ago
  never mind putting people off edge, they risk getting sick of outlook! If my company had a product that was deeply embedded and collecting massive amounts of detailed information about the inner workings of so many companies across so many industries the last thing I'd do is risk scaring them off my product by making it more annoying. The insights MS must gain from the data they pull out of outlook (and office in general) is worth a hell of a lot more than an increase in edge users.
buro9 3y ago
WSL2 in Windows means you can just run a Debian underneath and launch a non-snap Firefox from there and have it appears in Windows. Now you get the benefit of Windows power management (and that beautiful laptop battery life) but a web browser Microsoft isn't going to mess with. This sounds hilarious were it not the way I actually work. PS: I'll also mention that VSCode from Windows to WSL2 + Debian is a mind-blowingly wonderful thing, I don't know how it works but it's near magical as a dev environment when you need a full Linux but like having battery life.
- papruapap 3y ago
  What about playing media? Even when running natively, Firefox has the worst gpu acceleration support in my experience.
  - nicce 3y ago
    When was the last time you used it? GPU acceleration works perfectly for me in Mac or Linux.
- OJFord 3y ago
  How are you supposed to discover and use WSL? I got fed up with trying to run Fusion360 on Linux, no longer had a Mac, and reignited my long disused Windows installation recently. Updated and restarted. Looked around for WSL, nothing. Searched online, loads of blog spam of mixed helpfulness, no way of telling (for me, new to it) if they were v1 or v2, no basic information like they're talking about Ubuntu but is that a requirement? What changes if I want x? Looked in the app store, ..stuff yes, including 'Arch WSL' for example, but is this right? It seems to work, but really, I'm supposed to install something third-party? I assumed it was just something that was there built-in by default, but apparently not? Probably is if I first go start run regedit and set Computer Computer Windows HKLM Software Windows Windows Linux Software WSL enable to '2', right? Easy.
  - noSyncCloud 3y ago
    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
ballenf 3y ago
gmail app on iOS refuses to load a link from an email in Safari. It will monthly ask you to confirm if you want to load it in Chrome. If you stick with safari it will load the site in an internal safari webview, requiring a second tap on the bottom to launch in the real safari. Can break some magic link login emails.
- SpaceManNabs 3y ago
  > gmail app on iOS refuses to load a link from an email in Safari > If you stick with safari it will load the site in an internal safari webview, requiring a second tap on the bottom to launch in the real safari ??? Many applications do this, including those from Apple itself. I don't see the refusal here.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    It's so annoying to get a Github link to a private repo (aka, review comments) only to open into an internal webview that isn't authenticated.
- sunnybeetroot 3y ago
  This is encouraged and is a step in the right direction of discouraging app developers from implementing their own web views which can intercept the traffic.
II2II 3y ago
I don't think it is Linux per se that is better as open source software. It seems to support a much more competitive market, which is something that busines seem to shun in their never ending lust for growth. And there are good checks and balances for open source. Just consider what happens when a project becomes too arrogant: if a new independent project isn't spawned, one based upon their existing code base will.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  If Red Hat or Canonical were in the business of making their own web browsers, I have no doubt we would see similar behavior in RHEL or Ubuntu LTS.
  - Animats 3y ago
    Canonical already did that, when they dropped Flatpak support to force people to go through their "Snap Store".
    - simion314 3y ago
      >Canonical already did that, when they dropped Flatpak support to force people to go through their "Snap Store". You mean not installing it by default? This does make sense for me personally I never had good experience with flatpacks or snapped desktop apps. Snap CLI tools worked great for me on server.
      - Animats 3y ago
        Then your install instructions start with "first install Flatpak". This is unacceptable for an end user program. If you use the "Snap Store", you're imprisoned in a walled garden and subject to arbitrary decisions by Canonical, Inc.[1] They also take a cut if you charge for an app. [1] https://ubuntu.com/legal/developer-terms-and-conditions https://ubuntu.com/legal/developer-terms-and-conditions
        3y ago
SebastianKra 3y ago
Apple are experts are experts at creating these patterns that fall just at the edge of being classified as anti-consumer, to the point where you frequently find heated discussions about whether they are. Battery throtteling on the iPhone 6s; The sandboxing / sideloading discussion; The no-iCloud experience; The way that regular bluetooth headsets work fine, but AirPods work even better; How unauthorized Apps on MacOS must be opened with a right-click. Safari suggestions are also a great example: So far, I like them in iOS 17, since they can also provide direct links to useful sites such as Wikipedia. But don't doubt for a second, that taking traffic away from Google was the primary goal here. Microsoft isn't so smart. Most users, including non-technical, can see through their attempts.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  also denying full access to pencil api so that 3rd party pencils cannot compete with the official ones. and lack of user profiles on ipads so they cannot be easily shared among family.
  - throwawaymobule 3y ago
    What parts of the API? I've never used a first party one, but the generic $10 one I got on aliexpress worked fine on an ipad6.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- codetrotter 3y ago
  Google seems just as bad tbh. The only browser I have installed on my phone is Safari but when I click links in YouTube it always asks which browser I want to open the link in. Safari or Chrome. No I don’t want to install your shit browser on my phone Google. Kindly frick off.
  - Eduard 3y ago
    > Google seems just as bad tbh. It is a difference for Google to advertise their browser on their properties (eg Youtube) versus Apple hijacking the search bar of some other browser, and in general not allowing third parties to provide full browsers in the Apple App Store (and not just a shim which mandatorily has to use Safari behind the curtains)
princevegeta89 3y ago
After "Your potential, our passion", Microsoft's new tagline is: "Your privacy, our business".
troupo 3y ago
> Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search (Particularly for locations which open in apple maps Anecdata, I know, but I've never experienced this across any iOS versions. Though given how shitty Apple's own software has become, I wouldn't be surprised if it's an integration gone awry.
n_sd 3y ago
Just a side note. You might be meaning GNU/Linux instead of Linux.
- kervantas 3y ago
  GNU/systemd/Liux/x86/electricity, to be specific.
lucb1e 3y ago
> 'with added "trust of microsoft"' To be fair, you trust Microsoft to be your OS. Installing another browser means that there are now two parties that could be malicious or hacked (distribute a compromised update) rather than one. FWIW, I run Firefox on Debian Linux and an open source browser on Android as well (so no Safari hijacking going on either), but I can see valid logic in their statement ...even if they might not themselves have considered whether this is true before using it as marketing
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >To be fair, you trust Microsoft to be your OS Exactly. If you don't trust Microsoft with your confidential data, and to supply you the best browser, then why are you using their OS?
wodenokoto 3y ago
> Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search Unless you are referring to the search field on google.com, it is not hijacking’s your google searches. It is suggesting actions based on your input to the url bar.
111111IIIIIII 3y ago
Capitalism has stages.
kakadu 3y ago
> Its getting worse everywhere: I was introduced to the following concept[1] some time back, and I can't help but think it gives a very reasonable explanation as to why everything is a subscription these days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to_fall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit...

kwanbix 3y ago

I really don't like to use Edge, and I don't like imposed changes, however if you read the article, it says that it can be turned off, or am I missing something? "Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that."

post-it 3y ago
And it'll inevitably turn itself back on after a mandatory upgrade, just like all the other user-hostile things you can turn off.
- dizhn 3y ago
  Like android playstore notifications. You can turn them off sure. But you'll keep getting the notification that reminds you to turn them on. You only have to say yes once. But it dutifully asks you again and again if you say no to something. These things have become so yawn to me these days.
  - ljm 3y ago
    As has been the case for the past 10 years or so, UX consistently plays second-fiddle to analytics.
lozenge 3y ago
Sure, let's just all have to turn off a new setting every month.
acomjean 3y ago
The fact that it does it at all is the issue. Someone wrote code that literally is watching for users trying to download another browser. You usually download a browser just once, so turning if off isn't the issue. I suspect some of less technically inclined might abide by it and not download the new broswer. It almost seems like trial run for stopping the download. I can imagine "clippy" popping up an saying "I see your trying to download a browser, I'm sorry, I can't allow that"
- withinboredom 3y ago
  The code itself likely comes from Google, not Microsoft. You can open Chrome and go download Edge/FF, IIRC, it only shows if chrome is the default browser. At least it used to a couple of years ago. Gmail still nags me about not using Chrome. I don't see the issue here.
denton-scratch 3y ago
> or am I missing something? Yes, you're missing the fact that the user ALREADY set the default browser to something other than Edge, and Outhouse is now going to ignore your declared preference "for your convenience".

Angostura 3y ago

That’s a configurable suggestion in Safari. Go to Settings > Safari and turn off ‘Safari suggestions’

13of40 3y ago
A non-dark-pattern for that would be a button on the first suggestion that lets you disable the suggestion permanently.
- dr-detroit 3y ago
  [dead]
- TX81Z 3y ago
  I think people have started using “dark pattern” to mean any UX decisions they disagree with. There is a hugely substantive difference between this feature being on by default and say, making a ”reject tracking” button in 2 point grey font. Dark patterns are primarily things that if presented equally would result in a different decision which often go directly against the users self interest. I don’t see that here.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    The dark pattern is redirecting Google search to Apple maps.
    - TX81Z 3y ago
      Ok, I can agree there, I thought they meant the search bar suggestions which is maybe annoying but not misleading or controlling.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      How do I get this to happen? I turned them all on typed in an address, hit return, hit the button on Google and it opened in Google Maps. I'm on the latest version of iOS.

chankstein38 3y ago

Yeah I've complained on here about that as well. I'm not sure what they think they're doing but that made me want to stay as far away from Edge as possible. They really think they're going to win me over by creepily watching my downloads and popping stuff up the whole time I'm in the process of installing it?

wholinator2 3y ago
No, they know you hate it. They know we all hate it. But there's enough retired dads and old grandma's out there to more than make up for us. People like us have been saying things like this for decades, if they still don't understand how we feel then it's willful ignorance. They know we hate it and they don't care because it makes them money and that's the only thing that matters in the world anymore. I'm all for businesses businessing, but god damn I guess all the low hanging fruit got picked and now they have to keep stepping on ever increasing numbers of faces to get ever higher for their shareholders and portfolios.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  no, no, no.. it is not "retired dads" strawmen.. control of the installation process is a feature for management and security. It is not "nice" to say it in public apparently.. you the computer operator are not in control of the machine you are using. Your employer and their security people are in control of the machine that YOU are using.
autoexec 3y ago
never mind putting people off edge, they risk getting sick of outlook! If my company had a product that was deeply embedded and collecting massive amounts of detailed information about the inner workings of so many companies across so many industries the last thing I'd do is risk scaring them off my product by making it more annoying. The insights MS must gain from the data they pull out of outlook (and office in general) is worth a hell of a lot more than an increase in edge users.

buro9 3y ago

WSL2 in Windows means you can just run a Debian underneath and launch a non-snap Firefox from there and have it appears in Windows. Now you get the benefit of Windows power management (and that beautiful laptop battery life) but a web browser Microsoft isn't going to mess with. This sounds hilarious were it not the way I actually work. PS: I'll also mention that VSCode from Windows to WSL2 + Debian is a mind-blowingly wonderful thing, I don't know how it works but it's near magical as a dev environment when you need a full Linux but like having battery life.

papruapap 3y ago
What about playing media? Even when running natively, Firefox has the worst gpu acceleration support in my experience.
- nicce 3y ago
  When was the last time you used it? GPU acceleration works perfectly for me in Mac or Linux.
OJFord 3y ago
How are you supposed to discover and use WSL? I got fed up with trying to run Fusion360 on Linux, no longer had a Mac, and reignited my long disused Windows installation recently. Updated and restarted. Looked around for WSL, nothing. Searched online, loads of blog spam of mixed helpfulness, no way of telling (for me, new to it) if they were v1 or v2, no basic information like they're talking about Ubuntu but is that a requirement? What changes if I want x? Looked in the app store, ..stuff yes, including 'Arch WSL' for example, but is this right? It seems to work, but really, I'm supposed to install something third-party? I assumed it was just something that was there built-in by default, but apparently not? Probably is if I first go start run regedit and set Computer Computer Windows HKLM Software Windows Windows Linux Software WSL enable to '2', right? Easy.
- noSyncCloud 3y ago
  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install

ballenf 3y ago

gmail app on iOS refuses to load a link from an email in Safari. It will monthly ask you to confirm if you want to load it in Chrome. If you stick with safari it will load the site in an internal safari webview, requiring a second tap on the bottom to launch in the real safari. Can break some magic link login emails.

SpaceManNabs 3y ago
> gmail app on iOS refuses to load a link from an email in Safari > If you stick with safari it will load the site in an internal safari webview, requiring a second tap on the bottom to launch in the real safari ??? Many applications do this, including those from Apple itself. I don't see the refusal here.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  It's so annoying to get a Github link to a private repo (aka, review comments) only to open into an internal webview that isn't authenticated.
sunnybeetroot 3y ago
This is encouraged and is a step in the right direction of discouraging app developers from implementing their own web views which can intercept the traffic.

II2II 3y ago

I don't think it is Linux per se that is better as open source software. It seems to support a much more competitive market, which is something that busines seem to shun in their never ending lust for growth. And there are good checks and balances for open source. Just consider what happens when a project becomes too arrogant: if a new independent project isn't spawned, one based upon their existing code base will.

gtirloni 3y ago
If Red Hat or Canonical were in the business of making their own web browsers, I have no doubt we would see similar behavior in RHEL or Ubuntu LTS.
- Animats 3y ago
  Canonical already did that, when they dropped Flatpak support to force people to go through their "Snap Store".
  - simion314 3y ago
    >Canonical already did that, when they dropped Flatpak support to force people to go through their "Snap Store". You mean not installing it by default? This does make sense for me personally I never had good experience with flatpacks or snapped desktop apps. Snap CLI tools worked great for me on server.
    - Animats 3y ago
      Then your install instructions start with "first install Flatpak". This is unacceptable for an end user program. If you use the "Snap Store", you're imprisoned in a walled garden and subject to arbitrary decisions by Canonical, Inc.[1] They also take a cut if you charge for an app. [1] https://ubuntu.com/legal/developer-terms-and-conditions https://ubuntu.com/legal/developer-terms-and-conditions
      - 3y ago

SebastianKra 3y ago

Apple are experts are experts at creating these patterns that fall just at the edge of being classified as anti-consumer, to the point where you frequently find heated discussions about whether they are. Battery throtteling on the iPhone 6s; The sandboxing / sideloading discussion; The no-iCloud experience; The way that regular bluetooth headsets work fine, but AirPods work even better; How unauthorized Apps on MacOS must be opened with a right-click. Safari suggestions are also a great example: So far, I like them in iOS 17, since they can also provide direct links to useful sites such as Wikipedia. But don't doubt for a second, that taking traffic away from Google was the primary goal here. Microsoft isn't so smart. Most users, including non-technical, can see through their attempts.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
also denying full access to pencil api so that 3rd party pencils cannot compete with the official ones. and lack of user profiles on ipads so they cannot be easily shared among family.
- throwawaymobule 3y ago
  What parts of the API? I've never used a first party one, but the generic $10 one I got on aliexpress worked fine on an ipad6.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
codetrotter 3y ago
Google seems just as bad tbh. The only browser I have installed on my phone is Safari but when I click links in YouTube it always asks which browser I want to open the link in. Safari or Chrome. No I don’t want to install your shit browser on my phone Google. Kindly frick off.
- Eduard 3y ago
  > Google seems just as bad tbh. It is a difference for Google to advertise their browser on their properties (eg Youtube) versus Apple hijacking the search bar of some other browser, and in general not allowing third parties to provide full browsers in the Apple App Store (and not just a shim which mandatorily has to use Safari behind the curtains)

princevegeta89 3y ago

After "Your potential, our passion", Microsoft's new tagline is: "Your privacy, our business".

troupo 3y ago

> Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search (Particularly for locations which open in apple maps Anecdata, I know, but I've never experienced this across any iOS versions. Though given how shitty Apple's own software has become, I wouldn't be surprised if it's an integration gone awry.

n_sd 3y ago

Just a side note. You might be meaning GNU/Linux instead of Linux.

kervantas 3y ago
GNU/systemd/Liux/x86/electricity, to be specific.

lucb1e 3y ago

> 'with added "trust of microsoft"' To be fair, you trust Microsoft to be your OS. Installing another browser means that there are now two parties that could be malicious or hacked (distribute a compromised update) rather than one. FWIW, I run Firefox on Debian Linux and an open source browser on Android as well (so no Safari hijacking going on either), but I can see valid logic in their statement ...even if they might not themselves have considered whether this is true before using it as marketing

midoridensha 3y ago
>To be fair, you trust Microsoft to be your OS Exactly. If you don't trust Microsoft with your confidential data, and to supply you the best browser, then why are you using their OS?

wodenokoto 3y ago

> Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search Unless you are referring to the search field on google.com, it is not hijacking’s your google searches. It is suggesting actions based on your input to the url bar.

111111IIIIIII 3y ago

Capitalism has stages.

kakadu 3y ago

> Its getting worse everywhere: I was introduced to the following concept[1] some time back, and I can't help but think it gives a very reasonable explanation as to why everything is a subscription these days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to_fall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit...