5 ms·

> When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. I’m not knowledgeable about odometers

by oefrha 3y ago

> When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. I’m not knowledgeable about odometers at all, but if it’s as easy as “hooking up to a computer” to get the real mileage, why don’t people do that when they buy the trucks?

raincom 3y ago
By 'hooking up to a computer', one tampers odometers in the first place. That's how leased cars' odometers are tampered by some lessees.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
  The OBD port can easily spit out a read only mileage reading which is not tampering with the recorded value in the ECU. The OBD port is supposed to be user accessible and usable by the end user and 3rd parties (at least in the EU) even though manufacturers are trying their hardest to put “non diagnostic data” behind their proprietary software and/or wireless comms. Reading the data from the OBD port isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be classed as tampering. One of the ways tampering happens on digital dashes that read the mileage from the ECU is by putting a interceptor in between the dash and the ECU as it’s easier than reprogramming the ECU. https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ
- yetihehe 3y ago
  This comment was not clear. Odometer in car computer can be changed too. There exists special obd command to do this (when you need to replant ECU between engines), but you need to have a password (which is provided with "official" diagnostic computers/tools). If car has no mechanical odometer (most new passenger cars today don't), this is the only way to change odometer values.
  - fmntf 3y ago
    This is not how odometers are scammed. The EEPROM gets rewritten to zero, then you can increment the odometer to your preferred value via OBD/UDS. Please note that you can only increment the odometer without a specialized (authenticated) diagnostic session. FYI I do not reset odometers, I am on the other side, developing software for instrument clusters.
et2o 3y ago
It is not allowed prior to purchase
habnds 3y ago
wholesale auctions operate with a surprising amount of trust, often buyers never actually see the car, they buy based on the specs and description. The vehicle is then shipped to the buyer, and in some cases. the buyer, when finally seeing the vehicle, will get in touch with the seller and say "this isn't "great" condition, this is "good", for _reasons_" and negotiate an adjustment of the price to reflect that. The plaintiff is in the comments of that article and mentions most auctions don't allow computer diagnostics on a car.
- oefrha 3y ago
  > most auctions don't allow computer diagnostics on a car. I was thinking about running the diagnostics immediately after delivery instead of after two dozen mechanical failures. But another comment says the diagnostics software is very expensive and difficult to acquire, makes sense if true.
  - jprete 3y ago
    Automotive repair products are oriented around business purchases and sales, so everything is expensive, and designed for professional repair of either lots of various customer vehicles or a managed fleet of vehicles.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    A generic OBDII scanner that will read mileage and engine fault codes is not expensive, they are on Amazon and other sellers. The better ones run up to several hundred dollars. For some things you do need the manufacture's software but not for reading mileage and standard fault codes.
- horsawlarway 3y ago
  Most auctions just don't allow real inspection at all. At best they pop the hood and let you look at the undercarriage or drive the car by for a minute (and quite a few auctions will ask you to pay for even that tiny amount of inspection). That said - odometer fraud is a big fucking deal here. A vehicle with unknown mileage is worth far less at auction (just the fact that it's unknown is a huge flag) and if the auctioneer was aware of the fraud (as they're implying Holman Fleet Leasing was) then I'm curious to see how this is resolved... a smaller auction house would likely see jail time for several employees.
jmclnx 3y ago
IIRC, in most cases these computers and software are very expensive. Also getting one can be very difficult in many places depending upon the Laws. The Auto Industry really only wants dealerships to have these.
- hirundo 3y ago
  Here's a highly rated one for $26 https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-OBDCheck-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Supports/dp/B073XKQQQW/ref=sr_1_17?crid=12JU2H70L6XRX&keywords=obdii+bluetooth+scanner&qid=1687873004&sprefix=obdii+blu%2Caps%2C187&sr=8-17 https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-OBDCheck-Bluetooth-Diagnostic...
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Highly rated by Amazon reviews and ratings? Yeah, that's reliable information that is highly protected from abuse and fraud. /s
- shawnz 3y ago
  You can get an OBD2 diagnostic device on Amazon for $20
  - oasisbob 3y ago
    Will it read all the manufacturer-specific clusters needed to confirm odometer fraud on this model of vehicle? I use my $20 eBay OBD2 all the time on my Mk4 Jetta to confirm faults. However, even with such an old car with decent support, there are many things I'm unable to do or see.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      The better ones will, maybe not the $20 ones. But even the good ones are only a few hundred dollars.
- chollida1 3y ago
  This hasn't been true for 20 years. The influx of chinese products has drive the price down to less than $20.
vGPU 3y ago
The OP posted a comment on the article that addressed this: >>Tom Layton here, the original plaintiff. I will check back often to answer all your questions. First off, you cannot check out auction vehicles with OBD scanners or any other engine scan tool because the auto auctions prohibit any such scanners on auction property. Furthermore., of the 500 or so I purchased 99% were purchased online at auctions all over the country. I had to believe what the auction stated on their condition reports. As far as wondering if FedEx did this on purpose? Both FedEx and Holman were fully aware of this 6 years ago when I filed my lawsuit in 2017. Do you think they stopped? Nope. They continued selling the replaced odometer vans defrauding the buyers right on up to, and including, this year, 2023. I think that answers the question if they did it on purpose! Post any questions about this largest odometer fraud in U.S. history and I will post answers periodically.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
vGPU 3y ago
Presumably this was through auctions like copart. They operate on the basis of “this is the info, these are the pics, good luck!”. Now, if, for example, you buy a car that is advertised as runs & drives and it turns out the car does not, in fact, drive - you can talk to them and have them buy the car back or whatever. This happens every now and then. But aside from that, you’re SOL. I’ve purchased a number of cars from them, and one issue that comes up fairly often is that they load the cars via forklift. Often, the forklift will cause damage to the underbody that was not present previously. In cases like that, you’re still pretty much SOL.
fest 3y ago
Living in a country with rampant odometer tampering: it often requires specialized diagnostics scanner and knowledge where to look (which is different for various vehicles). For example, on a VAG car, most generic diagnostics scanners just report the mileage as it's recorded in non-volatile memory in ECU/odometer/transmission (which people know how to change). But a specialized scanner (VAG COM, for example) also displays freeze-frame information of diagnostic faults (and this sometimes includes mileage, depending on the module). If the people doing corrections change the mileage reported by major modules that contain this information but do not bother to erase diagnostic faults, you can sometimes find the real mileage, as recorded by electric seat module which detected undervoltage condition when the battery was removed, or headlight module when the bulb burned out.
- yardie 3y ago
  VAG COM alerted me to a faulty module because its mileage was wildly different from all the other modules in the car.
- fmntf 3y ago
  Deleting the DTCs is really trivial. It's just a standard UDS command. The only way to avoid this kind of scam is buying vehicles that have done the official maintenance/inspection. That will report the odometer to the car maker.
  - fest 3y ago
    > The only way to avoid this kind of scam is buying vehicles that have done the official maintenance/inspection. Agree, but not everyone here can afford <5 year old vehicle, so people have to do with the means they have. As soon as warranty/lease ends, people generally go with cheaper, non-manufacturer maintenance shops.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by oefrha 3y ago

raincom 3y ago

By 'hooking up to a computer', one tampers odometers in the first place. That's how leased cars' odometers are tampered by some lessees.

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
The OBD port can easily spit out a read only mileage reading which is not tampering with the recorded value in the ECU. The OBD port is supposed to be user accessible and usable by the end user and 3rd parties (at least in the EU) even though manufacturers are trying their hardest to put “non diagnostic data” behind their proprietary software and/or wireless comms. Reading the data from the OBD port isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be classed as tampering. One of the ways tampering happens on digital dashes that read the mileage from the ECU is by putting a interceptor in between the dash and the ECU as it’s easier than reprogramming the ECU. https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ
yetihehe 3y ago
This comment was not clear. Odometer in car computer can be changed too. There exists special obd command to do this (when you need to replant ECU between engines), but you need to have a password (which is provided with "official" diagnostic computers/tools). If car has no mechanical odometer (most new passenger cars today don't), this is the only way to change odometer values.
- fmntf 3y ago
  This is not how odometers are scammed. The EEPROM gets rewritten to zero, then you can increment the odometer to your preferred value via OBD/UDS. Please note that you can only increment the odometer without a specialized (authenticated) diagnostic session. FYI I do not reset odometers, I am on the other side, developing software for instrument clusters.

et2o 3y ago

It is not allowed prior to purchase

habnds 3y ago

wholesale auctions operate with a surprising amount of trust, often buyers never actually see the car, they buy based on the specs and description. The vehicle is then shipped to the buyer, and in some cases. the buyer, when finally seeing the vehicle, will get in touch with the seller and say "this isn't "great" condition, this is "good", for _reasons_" and negotiate an adjustment of the price to reflect that. The plaintiff is in the comments of that article and mentions most auctions don't allow computer diagnostics on a car.

oefrha 3y ago
> most auctions don't allow computer diagnostics on a car. I was thinking about running the diagnostics immediately after delivery instead of after two dozen mechanical failures. But another comment says the diagnostics software is very expensive and difficult to acquire, makes sense if true.
- jprete 3y ago
  Automotive repair products are oriented around business purchases and sales, so everything is expensive, and designed for professional repair of either lots of various customer vehicles or a managed fleet of vehicles.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  A generic OBDII scanner that will read mileage and engine fault codes is not expensive, they are on Amazon and other sellers. The better ones run up to several hundred dollars. For some things you do need the manufacture's software but not for reading mileage and standard fault codes.
horsawlarway 3y ago
Most auctions just don't allow real inspection at all. At best they pop the hood and let you look at the undercarriage or drive the car by for a minute (and quite a few auctions will ask you to pay for even that tiny amount of inspection). That said - odometer fraud is a big fucking deal here. A vehicle with unknown mileage is worth far less at auction (just the fact that it's unknown is a huge flag) and if the auctioneer was aware of the fraud (as they're implying Holman Fleet Leasing was) then I'm curious to see how this is resolved... a smaller auction house would likely see jail time for several employees.

jmclnx 3y ago

IIRC, in most cases these computers and software are very expensive. Also getting one can be very difficult in many places depending upon the Laws. The Auto Industry really only wants dealerships to have these.

hirundo 3y ago
Here's a highly rated one for $26 https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-OBDCheck-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Supports/dp/B073XKQQQW/ref=sr_1_17?crid=12JU2H70L6XRX&keywords=obdii+bluetooth+scanner&qid=1687873004&sprefix=obdii+blu%2Caps%2C187&sr=8-17 https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-OBDCheck-Bluetooth-Diagnostic...
- dylan604 3y ago
  Highly rated by Amazon reviews and ratings? Yeah, that's reliable information that is highly protected from abuse and fraud. /s
shawnz 3y ago
You can get an OBD2 diagnostic device on Amazon for $20
- oasisbob 3y ago
  Will it read all the manufacturer-specific clusters needed to confirm odometer fraud on this model of vehicle? I use my $20 eBay OBD2 all the time on my Mk4 Jetta to confirm faults. However, even with such an old car with decent support, there are many things I'm unable to do or see.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    The better ones will, maybe not the $20 ones. But even the good ones are only a few hundred dollars.
chollida1 3y ago
This hasn't been true for 20 years. The influx of chinese products has drive the price down to less than $20.

vGPU 3y ago

The OP posted a comment on the article that addressed this: >>Tom Layton here, the original plaintiff. I will check back often to answer all your questions. First off, you cannot check out auction vehicles with OBD scanners or any other engine scan tool because the auto auctions prohibit any such scanners on auction property. Furthermore., of the 500 or so I purchased 99% were purchased online at auctions all over the country. I had to believe what the auction stated on their condition reports. As far as wondering if FedEx did this on purpose? Both FedEx and Holman were fully aware of this 6 years ago when I filed my lawsuit in 2017. Do you think they stopped? Nope. They continued selling the replaced odometer vans defrauding the buyers right on up to, and including, this year, 2023. I think that answers the question if they did it on purpose! Post any questions about this largest odometer fraud in U.S. history and I will post answers periodically.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

vGPU 3y ago

Presumably this was through auctions like copart. They operate on the basis of “this is the info, these are the pics, good luck!”. Now, if, for example, you buy a car that is advertised as runs & drives and it turns out the car does not, in fact, drive - you can talk to them and have them buy the car back or whatever. This happens every now and then. But aside from that, you’re SOL. I’ve purchased a number of cars from them, and one issue that comes up fairly often is that they load the cars via forklift. Often, the forklift will cause damage to the underbody that was not present previously. In cases like that, you’re still pretty much SOL.

fest 3y ago

Living in a country with rampant odometer tampering: it often requires specialized diagnostics scanner and knowledge where to look (which is different for various vehicles). For example, on a VAG car, most generic diagnostics scanners just report the mileage as it's recorded in non-volatile memory in ECU/odometer/transmission (which people know how to change). But a specialized scanner (VAG COM, for example) also displays freeze-frame information of diagnostic faults (and this sometimes includes mileage, depending on the module). If the people doing corrections change the mileage reported by major modules that contain this information but do not bother to erase diagnostic faults, you can sometimes find the real mileage, as recorded by electric seat module which detected undervoltage condition when the battery was removed, or headlight module when the bulb burned out.

yardie 3y ago
VAG COM alerted me to a faulty module because its mileage was wildly different from all the other modules in the car.
fmntf 3y ago
Deleting the DTCs is really trivial. It's just a standard UDS command. The only way to avoid this kind of scam is buying vehicles that have done the official maintenance/inspection. That will report the odometer to the car maker.
- fest 3y ago
  > The only way to avoid this kind of scam is buying vehicles that have done the official maintenance/inspection. Agree, but not everyone here can afford <5 year old vehicle, so people have to do with the means they have. As soon as warranty/lease ends, people generally go with cheaper, non-manufacturer maintenance shops.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]