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> Spent a few weeks in Munich where I was shouted at for crossing a totally empty street against a crosswalk light. I don't understand this. I live near Munich

> Spent a few weeks in Munich where I was shouted at for crossing a totally empty street against a crosswalk light. I don't understand this. I live near Munich, people cross against a red light all the time. Maybe you were doing it near children? That's a real social faux-pas, because they're not supposed to normalize jaywalking.

snovv_crash 3y ago
Exactly! I like to explain this kind of casual rulebreaking to US/UK people as being the German equivalent of using disgusting swearwords. Fine to do with your friends if nobody is around, or if you want to look tough or whatever, but don't do it in crowds and especially not in front of children.
- noduerme 3y ago
  I think this is strange. What is the example you're setting... that we all follow the rules? And when they find out that you don't follow the rules, will that not be a disappointment? Here is an incident that happened the second day I got to Vietnam (long before I was ever in Germany). My girlfriend was really sick in the hotel. I was vomiting too, but I went out to find medicine. I got to the corner of a huge boulevard, maybe 8 lanes wide. There was a pharmacy on the other side. But the traffic never stopped when the light turned red. On and on the traffic just kept going, weaving around all the other cars on the cross-street. The boulevard was maybe 1 meter below the level of the sidewalk. I stood there for 5 minutes waiting for some time to step into the street. Finally, a 6-year-old boy walked up alone, paused next to me, and started crossing the boulevard in the middle of the traffic. And all the cars and motorcycles just went around him. I was like, well fuck, if that kid can do it then I can do it... So what value are you teaching children? How to cross a street or how to follow orders? Crossing a street when it's possible may be illegal but it's not immoral. The idea that neglecting formalities leads to immorality can only be true if the morality isn't implanted. Worse, it implies that formalities are the only thing that holds back man's immoral nature... which should not be the lesson. If a man jaywalks, it doesn't make him more liable to commit other criminal acts.
  - snovv_crash 3y ago
    > So what value are you teaching children? What value are you teaching children by not swearing in front of them? Why is making certain sounds with your mouth immoral? Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured? The jwalking culture in Germany is exactly the same.
    - TuringTest 3y ago
      > Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured? Yes, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Learning that different groups of people may have their own languages and customs is the first step to being able to blend in with a diverse group; it's great when you're able to adopt a register appropriate to the people you are with at any given moment. Of course it's also possible that the child learns to be a snob and treating with disdain those who are not in your group. But I would say that's a character trait of the person, and it's still worth having the opportunity to learn how to adapt, rather than being unable to modulate your behavior and only knowing how to have a single posture. Having a culture of acceptance starts with knowing the customs of many different groups.
  - crote 3y ago
    Crossing a street when the light is red is dangerous, because it means other traffic will have a green light. You want to teach children to stop for red lights, or you're going to end up with dead kids sooner rather than later. Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule. In most countries traffic won't swerve around you, they'll just end up hitting you because they are not expecting it!
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      > Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule. I don’t think this is necessarily true. They probably end up with a lot more dead kids as a result of this.
  - FeepingCreature 3y ago
    The reasoning is: Children are both small and stupid. They cannot reliably judge when a red-light crossing is safe. I don't know how Vietnam makes it work; they either have really alert drivers, really slow drivers or a really high child mortality rate.
noduerme 3y ago
>> Maybe you were doing it near children? YES that is precisely what happened. That's so funny you said this. I was standing in heavy falling snow, at the corner of an empty boulevard, next to a woman with two little daughters and a young boy. I stood for a moment and then walked across and she started yelling at me. I suppose she was trying to teach her children to be patient and wait for the light to change. What went through my head at that moment was, I kid you not, "ah, that's how they learn to follow orders". And this is entirely in sync with my original point above, but also personally, I loathe Munich. There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish. I believe the people there would vote for Hitler in a heartbeat if he were alive and running for office.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  You begin by sharing an anecdote where you perceived Germans as strictly law-abiding, only to have your assumption reevaluated when someone pointed out the presence of children, and the possible intention to teach them patience and safety. However, instead of reconsidering your stance on Germans' law-abiding behavior, you reassert your bias by invoking Godwin's Law, linking a contemporary incident to the actions of Hitler. Do you see any issue with this? (I'm not German)
  - noduerme 3y ago
    I do, from an outside perspective, see how ridiculous it sounds for me to conflate all those things. But Munich severely unsettled me and left me so distraught and angry that, as a whole, this minor incident which I'd previously forgotten only serves to reinforce my overall view. Taken together, it makes perfect sense. You don't shout at a man in the street in order to demonstrate good behavior to your children. Obedience, yes. Good behavior, no.
    - inconceivable 3y ago
      > There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish this is literally how every minority (basically anyone but the waspiest of wasps) feels in america. terrible jokes about <insert race here> are completely normalized.

snovv_crash 3y ago

Exactly! I like to explain this kind of casual rulebreaking to US/UK people as being the German equivalent of using disgusting swearwords. Fine to do with your friends if nobody is around, or if you want to look tough or whatever, but don't do it in crowds and especially not in front of children.

noduerme 3y ago
I think this is strange. What is the example you're setting... that we all follow the rules? And when they find out that you don't follow the rules, will that not be a disappointment? Here is an incident that happened the second day I got to Vietnam (long before I was ever in Germany). My girlfriend was really sick in the hotel. I was vomiting too, but I went out to find medicine. I got to the corner of a huge boulevard, maybe 8 lanes wide. There was a pharmacy on the other side. But the traffic never stopped when the light turned red. On and on the traffic just kept going, weaving around all the other cars on the cross-street. The boulevard was maybe 1 meter below the level of the sidewalk. I stood there for 5 minutes waiting for some time to step into the street. Finally, a 6-year-old boy walked up alone, paused next to me, and started crossing the boulevard in the middle of the traffic. And all the cars and motorcycles just went around him. I was like, well fuck, if that kid can do it then I can do it... So what value are you teaching children? How to cross a street or how to follow orders? Crossing a street when it's possible may be illegal but it's not immoral. The idea that neglecting formalities leads to immorality can only be true if the morality isn't implanted. Worse, it implies that formalities are the only thing that holds back man's immoral nature... which should not be the lesson. If a man jaywalks, it doesn't make him more liable to commit other criminal acts.
- snovv_crash 3y ago
  > So what value are you teaching children? What value are you teaching children by not swearing in front of them? Why is making certain sounds with your mouth immoral? Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured? The jwalking culture in Germany is exactly the same.
  - TuringTest 3y ago
    > Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured? Yes, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Learning that different groups of people may have their own languages and customs is the first step to being able to blend in with a diverse group; it's great when you're able to adopt a register appropriate to the people you are with at any given moment. Of course it's also possible that the child learns to be a snob and treating with disdain those who are not in your group. But I would say that's a character trait of the person, and it's still worth having the opportunity to learn how to adapt, rather than being unable to modulate your behavior and only knowing how to have a single posture. Having a culture of acceptance starts with knowing the customs of many different groups.
- crote 3y ago
  Crossing a street when the light is red is dangerous, because it means other traffic will have a green light. You want to teach children to stop for red lights, or you're going to end up with dead kids sooner rather than later. Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule. In most countries traffic won't swerve around you, they'll just end up hitting you because they are not expecting it!
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    > Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule. I don’t think this is necessarily true. They probably end up with a lot more dead kids as a result of this.
- FeepingCreature 3y ago
  The reasoning is: Children are both small and stupid. They cannot reliably judge when a red-light crossing is safe. I don't know how Vietnam makes it work; they either have really alert drivers, really slow drivers or a really high child mortality rate.

noduerme 3y ago

>> Maybe you were doing it near children? YES that is precisely what happened. That's so funny you said this. I was standing in heavy falling snow, at the corner of an empty boulevard, next to a woman with two little daughters and a young boy. I stood for a moment and then walked across and she started yelling at me. I suppose she was trying to teach her children to be patient and wait for the light to change. What went through my head at that moment was, I kid you not, "ah, that's how they learn to follow orders". And this is entirely in sync with my original point above, but also personally, I loathe Munich. There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish. I believe the people there would vote for Hitler in a heartbeat if he were alive and running for office.

mlrtime 3y ago
You begin by sharing an anecdote where you perceived Germans as strictly law-abiding, only to have your assumption reevaluated when someone pointed out the presence of children, and the possible intention to teach them patience and safety. However, instead of reconsidering your stance on Germans' law-abiding behavior, you reassert your bias by invoking Godwin's Law, linking a contemporary incident to the actions of Hitler. Do you see any issue with this? (I'm not German)
- noduerme 3y ago
  I do, from an outside perspective, see how ridiculous it sounds for me to conflate all those things. But Munich severely unsettled me and left me so distraught and angry that, as a whole, this minor incident which I'd previously forgotten only serves to reinforce my overall view. Taken together, it makes perfect sense. You don't shout at a man in the street in order to demonstrate good behavior to your children. Obedience, yes. Good behavior, no.
  - inconceivable 3y ago
    > There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish this is literally how every minority (basically anyone but the waspiest of wasps) feels in america. terrible jokes about <insert race here> are completely normalized.