8 ms·
The most troubling thing about this to me is Stockton Rush’s cavalier attitude toward ageism [1]. In considering young college graduates as uniquely “inspirati
by mulmen 3y ago
The most troubling thing about this to me is Stockton Rush’s cavalier attitude toward ageism [1]. In considering young college graduates as uniquely “inspirational” he set them up for a lifetime of guilt. I don’t think age or race has any place in inspirational calculus. I’m uncomfortable with how comfortably he dismisses submariner veterans as “old white guys”.
Engineering is a discipline that requires experience and guidance. The young learn from the old. In this case accomplished engineers missed a chance to do rewarding work with young engineers and young engineers have to live with the guilt of killing their crew.
This is a lesson the entire tech industry would do well to meditate on. Especially when we call ourselves engineers.
[1]: https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac&t=5m2s https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac&t=5m2s
- whatscooking 3y agoMost old engineers I’ve worked with are terrible and many younger ones are way more talented.
- Swinx43 3y agoYour troll craft is somewhat lacking
- housemusicfan 3y agoThis is the attitude you need to give birth to truly innovative ideas like a Bluetooth controller attached to the desktop PC that controlled his hunk of shit submarine that killed everyone on board. He proudly describes it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc
- mulmen 3y agoDoes he ever explain why carbon fiber and bluetooth were improvements over working technology?
- Hamuko 3y agoI remember seeing a claim that the Bluetooth part was a feature since you could just "pass the controller" inside the cabin but I haven't been able to find a source for it. As for the carbon fibre: >OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior. So, for Cyclops 2 OceanGate decided to avoid the metallic hull altogether and began a search for a manufacturer that could help it develop a composite hull. https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersibles-under-pressure-in-deep-deep-waters https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersib...
- mulmen 3y agoThanks for the citation. Handing the controller around smells like marketing wank, especially when you learn they bolted down the shitter and made the controls remote. Seems like an odd tradeoff. I’d be inclined to use a portable toilet or diapers and firmly attach the controls to the sub near the only window. People can still take turns.
- mcast 3y agoIt kind of makes sense considering the only viewport is on the opposite side of the submarine away from the PCs which interface with the controls. Maybe the intent was for someone to peak out the window to perform a maneuver. Still, I hope there was a wired controller as a backup just in case.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ciropantera 3y ago> I remember seeing a claim that the Bluetooth part was a feature since you could just "pass the controller" inside the cabin but I haven't been able to find a source for it. Here: https://youtu.be/ClkytJa0ghc?t=40 https://youtu.be/ClkytJa0ghc?t=40
- can16358p 3y agoI do agree with you, though I think BT game controller wasn't a bad idea for two reasons: - Battle-tested and easily replaceable, compared to a custom one. - Cables have a snapping risk in that limited physical space, Bluetooth solves it and there's no risk of EMI 4km underwater anyway. The carbonfiber structure... that's another story. Terrible.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dharmab 3y agoThe Logitech F710 was not a "battle-tested" controller, it's a cheap third party controller of inferior quality. The official Microsoft controllers have serious R&D behind them, but not the Logitech ones.
- heeen2 3y agothird party doesn't mean anything if you're not controlling a first party device
- m-p-3 3y agoHe's right on the cheap part though, I had that controller and it will sometimes looks connection, making you spin around as if you kept the joystick in position. I threw that thing away..
- can16358p 3y agoLogitech is a reputable brand making reliable components, not like those Chinese weird brands. It is battle tested by being used by so many people around the world. I don't understand what you imply by "3rd party". 3rd party in relation to what exactly in this context?
- dharmab 3y agoIn gaming, 3rd party accessories are ones nit made by the manufacturer of the game system. The first party is the console manufacturer (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo) and the second party is the end user. Logitech makes some great mice but their game controllers are notoriously poor quality for the price, especially since the first party controllers aren't much more expensive. Some of the "weird brand" gamepads like 8bitdo are considered better than Logitech or even Nintendo!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jb1991 3y agoThe situation is quite often the exact opposite: young engineers often fail to see the big picture and don’t know how to find the adequate architecture or approach to solve a problem in a genuine way, while experienced engineers will have a natural, intuitive approach that works easily. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve looked at a project by some engineer in their 20s, and it is so over-engineered and complicated, entirely lacking in any ability to future proof against onboarding or feature development, so clever they probably are very proud of themselves, but mostly useless.
- dizhn 3y agoLess experienced people probably start with a design that looks like it might do what they need.Then they keep tacking on things as they hit limitations. This might be the right approach but an experienced person would know when to cut their losses and start over. A desperate newcomer would double down on adding shit leading to a convoluted complex mess.
- jb1991 3y agoAnd what do you think happens to those talented young engineers when they get older? Are they no longer talented, just old?
- whatscooking 3y ago[flagged]
- jb1991 3y agoWhat a remarkable distortion of humanity.
- DonHopkins 3y agoSounds like you need to find a better job. Good luck, with that attitude.
- vGPU 3y agoAre you seriously trying to suggest that less experienced engineers are better than more experienced engineers? Hubris like this will leave you joining the other ghosts floating around the wreck of the titanic shortly.
- Dalewyn 3y ago>This is a lesson the entire tech industry would do well to meditate on. This is a lesson everyone in the business of making things would do well to meditate on. Age and skin color, let alone sex, don't a good product make. It's whether the people involved have what it takes to make a good product. OceanGate clearly did not have what it takes, even if they did check all the proper identity boxes.
- mulmen 3y agoYes, this applies to everyone. But I work in the tech industry so I’m speaking to that specifically. I’m in my late 30s and already feel the effects of ageism. Based on personal anecdotes that’s less of an issue in construction or farming for example.
- Chris2048 3y ago> OceanGate clearly did not have what it takes, even if they did check all the proper identity boxes. I don't think the ageism was some kind of identity politics - I assume it's b/c veterans refused to sign up to such an unsafe project, and the guy sugar-coated the dubious hiring practise by implying it was his choice not to hire them.
- whatshisface 3y agoWhy the gymnastics to avoid the obvious interpretation of his statement? Ageism is a widely known failing in the tech industry and hardly has any "rare disease" bayesian bias going against it...
- Chris2048 3y agoI don't understand what you are saying; first of all, this isn't the tech industry..
- whatshisface 3y agoThe dynamics in engineering companies have a lot in common with the dynamics in software companies.
- jnsaff2 3y agoAs someone said: "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old-bold pilots!"
- crossroadsguy 3y agoHe might as well have said I couldn't inspire a 60 year old veteran in the field to work for me like a slave for pittance of a salary. In engineering experience and precision and discipline matters a lot. OTOH I hope he still is alive somewhere somehow down there and gets rescued, but he does speak like a douchustler.
- rmaiti 3y agoThe submarine imploded, so that is VERY unlikely.
- crossroadsguy 3y agoOh I was not aware of that part of the news. Sorry to hear this. I thought they were still searching.
- tim333 3y agoI don't think he even offered the 60 year old veterans a chance. Probably a few of them would have advised a bit for free.
- thom 3y agoAnd yet despite the naivety of their youth, his engineers still spoke out against his contraption and were fired. I don’t think an old man in the room would have helped.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mulmen 3y agoI'm only aware of one engineer being fired for bringing up quality concerns. That is 49 year old David Lockridge. There are reports of a second former employee who had concerns but no details of their departure. I admit I do not have all the details so maybe there are more. But that's not really the point. The point is ageism weakens engineering organizations. That's not a condemnation of youth. Just an observation that the veterans still have something to contribute.
- Aeolun 3y ago> I don’t think an old man in the room would have helped. I guess in this case it actively hurt.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoIn a discussion with a work colleague, we agreed on the hope that out of this incident comes an increase in respect for "proper" engineering, maintenance, safety considerations; don't just remove Chesterton's fence because it's your way - it's in your way to slow you down and force you to look at something other than the obvious.
- Aerbil313 3y agoIt’s almost like an abstract self-correction algorithm: Safety practices in the industry will always be just a bit above the emotional tolerance of average person to average incident.
- pixelfarmer 3y agoWhat? Meditate on? What are you smoking? Anyone remembers the Boeing MAX 8 issues? Safety procedures / processes had been disabled on purpose for greed and people eventually died as a result. History has a truckload of examples in that direction, also because, despite better knowledge, proactively trying to prevent problems is often seen as some expense that is not needed ... until something happens and then the blame shifting starts. At least in this case the perpetrator was eating his own dog food and choked on it. Good riddance. Unfortunately, and yet again, others had to suffer (and some do for having lost family / friends) for this incompetence as well. But there will be no learning process, the amount of people like him is just too vast and they are too dense in their heads to face reality for what it is because they are just too used to "bending reality" to their will. That works with people (up to a certain degree), but when it comes to physics, there is a hard wall they will crack their skulls open.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y agoWhat are you talking about? Virtually the entire world has taken a peek behind the curtain of these extreme sub adventures. Anyone that matters now understands they are extremely risky , and its very likely no 1 company will be able to nurture this market for years without serious engineering bonafides. And as an additional bonus, the main culprit has been taken out of the gene pool. This is actually rare. We can argue about the price, but this is pure learning, at every level.
- phkahler 3y ago>> Virtually the entire world has taken a peek behind the curtain of these extreme sub adventures. Anyone that matters now understands they are extremely risky... Right. People will be afraid of subs for years. I'm glad we learned so much from this.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
- DonHopkins 3y agoApparently being ageist is now "woke". What an incredibly flexible term the right wing has appropriated! Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness': https://news.yahoo.com/conservatives-now-blaming-titanic-sub-211749391.html https://news.yahoo.com/conservatives-now-blaming-titanic-sub...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mulmen 3y agoThis is a harmful comment. Ageism is a real issue in tech and we should be able to talk about it constructively. It's unfortunate you responded to such an opportunity with a shallow invocation of a political wedge issue. As Jon Stewart once said "Please stop hurting us."