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It is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where

It is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where a shipwreck killed hundreds of people. [1] What springs to mind: Dramatic search action well suited for live blog coverage; psychological impact of the idea of people stranded in a submarine for days; And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Messenia_migrant_boat_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Messenia_migrant_boat_dis...

tacker2000 3y ago
This is unrelated to the article and can also be seen as political flamebait.
Philip-J-Fry 3y ago
I think the migrant boat disaster is horrible. But I was more interested in this missing sub because it was a bit mysterious what happened to it initially. Then it all comes out how badly built it is, how it's a death trap, etc. It's just more interesting personally. It doesn't mean it's worse than the migrant boat, it's just more interesting and I'd rather read about it. Mysterious cases always get more traction on social media too. There was an instance in the UK where a woman went missing near a river. People were speculating for weeks about what had happened. They would travel to the location and try and be detectives. It's was insane. People said it was because she was a white woman, but I don't think it's that. It's just the mystery of not knowing what happened and a body not being found straight away after divers searched the area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley Same goes for the sub. It's not because it was full of billionaires. It was because it was from a company infamous for cutting corners and people wanting confirmation that it did in fact implode. It also just boggles the mind why people who are so wealthy would get in something so shoddily put together. They have the money to fund a whole expedition like James Cameron did, but they'd rather increase the risk of death by an order of magnitude.
- jl6 3y ago
  The contrasting coverage is IMHO largely due to the novelty of the situation, and nothing to do with any moral judgement on the victims. Tragically, migrant boat disasters are common.
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    It was also the 'ticking clock' factor of the limited oxygen, a countdown of a few days, giving hope for a heroic rescue. People can't survive for long in cold seas. By the time a migrant boat disaster makes the news, hopes of finding survivors may already have faded.
    - tremon 3y ago
      The Mediterranean Sea isn't particularly cold this time of year, are you confusing the locations of the two incidents?
- itake 3y ago
  Do you have any details about why it was a death trap? I watched one video that complained about off the shelf parts being used, but the two examples was an RV light (not safety related) and the gaming controller (which they had multiple back ups). They also claimed to have been reviewed by Boeing and University of Washington. There was 7 different mechanisms that could force a return. Some of those were purely mechanical. Clearly the sub wasn’t safe enough, but I’m not seeing anything that makes it obviously badly built.
  - ryanthemadone 3y ago
    This flying lady doctor had lots to say on this https://twitter.com/LadyDoctorSays/status/1671700989429297152 https://twitter.com/LadyDoctorSays/status/167170098942929715...
  - cma 3y ago
    The whistleblower said they used flammable interior materials. Were the Camper World lights inflammable to the standards of submarines?
mytailorisrich 3y ago
> than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. A migrants boat. Most of the people crossing the Med into Europe are economic migrants but in the past decade it has become known that claiming asylum on arrival (or at least if caught) is a good strategy so many do.
- InexSquirrel 3y ago
  Interesting point, I wasn't aware of the distinction between economic migrant and refugee > Refugee immigrants are unable or unwilling to return home for fear or threat of prosecution, and thus, must make a life in the country that gives them refuge. Economic immigrants, on the other hand, are free from this constraint and can return home whenever they so desire.[1] But then further clarification of the term 'economic migrant' is also interesting: > The term ‘economic migrant’ has no legal definition. It is not mentioned in any international instruments of migration law. and > The inaccurate dichotomy between ‘economic migrants’ and refugees creates two fixed categories and gives the misleading impression that only refugees have and deserve legal protection and rights at the international level. > Yet, the reality is different and far more complex. Migratory movements are composed of various types of migrants who may have specific protection needs, even if they are not fleeing persecution or a conflict. These include accompanied or unaccompanied migrant children; victims of human trafficking; migrants attempting to reunite with their families; and migrants affected by natural disasters or environmental degradation, including as a consequence of climate change. [2] [1] https://docs.iza.org/dp1063.pdf https://docs.iza.org/dp1063.pdf [2] https://weblog.iom.int/false-dichotomy-between-economic-migrants-and-refugees https://weblog.iom.int/false-dichotomy-between-economic-migr...
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    Since the only country at war that borders EU is Ukraine I don't think that people from any other countries could be considered refugees.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    I am a bit puzzled by your comment. A 'refugee' has a legal definition because this is a status that is created and governed by international treaties, which is what makes it interesting for migrants because in 'nice' countries like in Europe this means that they are protected from deportation while their claim to refugee status is processed, which can take a very long time. They are provided accomodation during that time. All other migrants are simply people who migrate for whatever reason people move to other countries, which are mainly family and economic reasons. When people from poor countries want to move to rich countries the main reason is very obviously economic. All those migrants fall into normal national laws of the countries they move to, in general this means that if they enter without visas they face a form of arrest and deportation. That's it. There is indeed in a clear dichotomy. The rest is purely a political/ideological point of view as to whether people have effectively a right to migrate vs. whether countries have a right to decide who to let in.
scotty79 3y ago
It's a better story. Story of punished hubris of the rich who disregard everybody including experts. While another refugee boat sunk is just that.
spaceman_2020 3y ago
Bad things happening to well-off people gets outsized attention not because people care more about the rich, but because it knocks the wheels off one of the foundational beliefs of capitalism: that moving up the wealth ladder will shield you from the miseries that befall the poor. If being rich doesn’t protect you, then nothing can, and that makes capitalism rather meaningless. Might not be true in this case - the very idea of people locked up in a submarine is attention grabbing - but its certainly true for countless similar laments where people will point out the outsized attention a random investment banker getting attacked would get vis-a-vis the many murders in the inner city on any given day.
Bukhmanizer 3y ago
I don’t think people should be too surprised that the news cycle doesn’t exactly reward the biggest tragedies. Not to mention the fact that it only became such a big story largely because so many people were dunking on the company/passengers. Unless you’re suggesting we should be spending more time dunking on dead refugees?
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
frereubu 3y ago
A better comparison is to the round-the-clock coverage of the Chilean miners who were stuck underground, and the boys who were eventually rescued from the cave in Thailand. Your comparison is apples to oranges. The Messenia disaster was over by the time it hit the news (and it was covered extensively in the UK press), whereas the Titan situation was ongoing. Watch how quickly it disappears from the news cycle now it's been resolved.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
I understand that it is difficult to speculate on why the news covers one subject or another, and certainly the other comments have a point about being trapped being scary, or people laughing at the misfortune of the powerful being good for clickbait. I just want to say, another issue is that to be perfectly honest, we don't like to humanize migrants, nor do we want to examine our culpability in their misfortune and demise. We want to mine resources from foreign countries even if that means destabilizing their governments, but we absolutely do not want to deal with the people fleeing those places whether we had nothing to do with their misfortune or we were in some way complicit. The misfortune of a few rich guys is much easier for us to process than the avoidable death of hundreds, which was reportedly ultimately caused by the European Coast Guard who attempted to tow the vessel and in doing so supposedly caused it to sink. [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/world/europe/greece-migrant-boat-disaster.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/world/europe/greece-migra...
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
Something about tragedies, and something about statistics... But there's also the concern of frequency, [2] occurs more frequent than [1], people generally don't care about the people at [2] because they are "unimportant", and not prominent in any way. They are background characters on the other side of the world for many, they are not well dressed, they do not perform functions with significant influence on the broader society. Or at least so they are perceived by the general public. They are labelled illegal immigrants, or leeches, or whatever else because people in many places can't fathom being born in a third world or very poor country and doing everything in your power to make it out. Imagine, feeling so low, that you'd give everything, your life even, for a chance, a sliver of chance, at what others are born into.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  The comparison between these two stories is being made (elsewhere on the Internet) because humans were literally still being found and fished out of the Mediterranean, alive, while entire nation states mobilized to try to rescue a few wreckless rich guys who were likely already dead. The point being made is about misallocation of resources, not news coverage. (Novel stories will always grab more attention.)
  - civilitty 3y ago
    > while entire nation states mobilized Who? The US Navy/Coast Guard sending an ultra deepwater ROV isn't even comparable to the Greeks actively monitoring the boat enough to take a photo of it before it capsized, let alone is anyone mobilizing "entire nation states"
  - umeshunni 3y ago
    > The point being made is about misallocation of resources, not news coverage. The families of the missing rich people have the resources to fund the search. The families of the missing people in the Mediterranean obviously do not.
    - bscphil 3y ago
Gerard0 3y ago
Thanks for this. I had no idea.
timeon 3y ago
I agree with your observation but Mediterranean disaster had coverage since last week at least in European news I am following. This accident will also soon disappear from the news since we now know the fate.
- sandworm101 3y ago
  How many rescue ships were deployed to the med incident? How many to the titanic? The victims/ships ratio demonstrates that one garnered exponentially more government attention.
  - stef25 3y ago
    > one garnered exponentially more government attention It wouldn't be surprising that some of those rescue ships were funded by the families of the victims, considering the size of their bank accounts.
  - sigstoat 3y ago
    different countries of very different sizes and capabilities were near the incidents. the US and Canadian coast guards don't operate in the Mediterranean, and (presumably) couldn't have gotten ships there fast enough to do anything about it, anyways.
    - unnamed76ri 3y ago
      Splitting hairs here but the US Navy has several bases in the Mediterranean. Though I don’t know where vessels were related to the refugee boat or how quickly that tragedy began and ended.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > How many rescue ships were deployed to the med incident? How many to the titanic? I don't know. Do you ? From wikipedia: "Immediately following the sinking, the Greek Coast Guard and the military initiated a massive search and rescue operation."
renewiltord 3y ago
Yes, it's more similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue than to other disasters, which should illustrate that it's not about the kind of people so much as the story itself. I lived in South Asia for a while and the thing that would strike me is the everyday catastrophes. For instance, there was a recent Indian derailment that you barely heard about here in the US https://apnews.com/article/india-passenger-train-derail-deadly-accident-dd0c82012f9e14016b58d09eb3adec2d https://apnews.com/article/india-passenger-train-derail-dead... 275 deaths.
- gamblor956 3y ago
  For instance, there was a recent Indian derailment that you barely heard about here in the US It was only covered in the NYT, LAT, WaPo, Chicago Tribune, WSJ, USAT, NPR, CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, NBC News, and CBS News....just to name a few.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Fair enough. Same places as the Greek migrants, so I suppose we were operating with a false premise. Most things are quite well covered irrespective of whom the victims were.
deleted 3y ago
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tailspin2019 3y ago
I reflected on this too. I think the key differentiator is the context of the submarine situation unfolding in realtime, with action which could still be taken, and an unknown future outcome, as opposed to an event which was reported on retrospectively, after the disaster had happened. But the contrast is still striking between both the situations and media reporting of 5 rich men vs 700 of some of the world’s poorest and most desperate people. Both are unbelievably tragic. The reporting on the Mediterranean disaster seems to have gone a lot quieter than I would have expected given what we now know about how the Greek authorities story simply does not match up with what actually seems to have happened. (It seems like there may have been an opportunity to prevent that disaster).
codetrotter 3y ago
> the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean There is no way in hell I would pay $250k to board a janky-ass sub going deep into the ocean. For $250k, I could buy a nice house for me, my girlfriend and our future family. And even that is not possible yet. Because I don’t have that kind of money.
- emeril 3y ago
  maybe so but a lot of contributors here are pretty loaded and could def drop $250k on something on a whim
- soperj 3y ago
  > For $250k, I could buy a nice house for me, my girlfriend and our future family. That's not even enough of down payment for a tear down where I live!
  - codetrotter 3y ago
    Relocate :D In the city I was born I don’t think there is room for a couple with kids anywhere near $250k. Probably I’d need $400k or more there for any kind of suitable housing. In the city where I rent currently, maybe just barely. But my hope is to scrape together enough savings and then buy a house or flat for us somewhere in the world where $250k or thereabouts would be sufficient.
- asynchronous 3y ago
  Reminder too that literally everyone is one country-ending catastrophic event away from being on a refugee boat
  - hguant 3y ago
    This is something of a false equivalence - yes, "everyone" is at risk from a country ending event, but not all countries are equally at risk.
  - 3y ago
kitd 3y ago
I think the idea of being trapped in a confined space kilometers under the sea has a visceral effect on the imagination that a boat voyage on the surface doesn't, regardless of how tragic the outcome is in both events. It pokes and prods many of our deep phobias. Similar stories like the Thai boys trapped in the cave, or the Chilean miners, had a similar effect. A bit like "Snakes on a plane". Again, trapped with your phobias.
- nomel 3y ago
  Yes, it's good entertainment, for many.
- finitemonkey 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - boeingUH60 3y ago
    You’re just looking for outrage where there is none.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Regarding drowning people in the Mediteranian and eslewhere, yes, there should be more, and constant, outrage. It says a lot about Western society that there isn't, that it doesn't even really make the news anymore...
      - boeingUH60 3y ago
        It made the news everywhere around the world. But perpetually outraged people gonna find anything to outrage about anyways..
        hef19898 3y ago
        Oh, there should be outrage about the kere fact we allow those disasters, the migrants and not the rich people at the Titanic, to happen. There isn't, and some news coverage is by no means enough. But hey, we in the West are fine not worrying too much about some poor folks Africa dying at our door steps. Because doing so, would force us to face the fact that we are by no means as morally superior than we like to think, and just convinced ourselves to be with all the help Ukrainian refugees got. So, we prefer not to think about it, as a society.
olalonde 3y ago
It's just that experimental submarines vanishing on their way to the Titanic are much more unusual and intriguing than boating accidents. There was also an element of suspense since the fate of the sub was unknown (similar to flight MH370).
sireat 3y ago
In European news both events received significant coverage. Local news trumps global. I am sure in Greece the Messenia migrant boat disaster got more coverage than Titan. That said, the big factor is how sadly common migrant boat disasters are (just like liquid gas exploding in a restaurant in China and killing 10+ people, happened yesterday). Carbon fiber submersible on the way to Titanic containing cocky inventor, plus billionaire, plus kid hits so many spots for news cycle.
lm28469 3y ago
> And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. My opinion is the complete opposite, I think it has more coverage because it's a feel good event for 90% of the world who absolutely despise rich fucks in that specific part of the dumb X rich venn diagram I haven't seen a single post about how sad the sub story is... it's all memes and people amazed at how stupid humans can be
- stef25 3y ago
  It's not so much stupidity as knowingly embarking on a dangerous adventure for the purpose of fun, basically. Someone who took the trip before said they had to sign a waver which mentioned death multiple times. It's like climbing Everest, walking to the north pole, commercial space flights, base jumping etc. The med disaster was people embarking on a dangerous "adventure" out of what they perceived as being a necessity. Of course all lives should be regarded as being equal.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    This all feels like a parody to be honest, at least previous explorers were.... exploring Now people _pay_ to be carried on the Everest, pay for a ticket to space, pay for a ticket to the titanic, &c. There is nothing left so they fight for the crumbs, looking for the next dumbest idea on the list
    - stef25 3y ago
      Yeah couldn't agree more. "Into thin air" about a disaster on Everest describes very well how some, if not most, of the people in the group had never been anywhere near a mountain half as challenging as Everest. Some even had brand new boots, which anyone with half a brain knows is a bad idea. A few did turn out to be tough bastards though, spending several days up there alone in a state of delirium and eventually making it back down on their own accord. Guardian also mentioned a Mexican Youtuber having taken the trip down to the Titanic in that titanium coffin, just for clicks & views.
  - 3y ago
j-a-a-p 3y ago
Also the coastguards were tripping over each other to save these 5 men, while for the refugees the speculation is if the coastguard contributed to the wrecking.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Whose speculation?
  - stef25 3y ago
    The Greek coast guard gave conflicting statements about having tied a rope to the boat to try and tow it to the shore. First they did, then they didn't.
  - j-a-a-p 3y ago
    Me it seems. I thought to have read the boat capsized while being towed, as claimed by one of the survivors. Being towed could be an involuntary act, while throwing a line seems solely meant to help. > The 104 survivors of the tragedy have very limited mobility and access to communications. Some of them said Greek Coast Guard vessels threw them a line shortly before their vessel capsized [1] On a personal note. I myself got once rescued by the navy with their Zodiac. That was a mutually fantastic experience. I believe that coastguards anywhere would prefer to rescue above anything else, that is what they signed up for. I hope this dual tragedy will help the leadership to remove anything that creeps between that objective. [1] https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-06-20/greece-imposes-silence-around-shipwreck-of-overcrowded-migrant-boat.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-06-20/greece-i...
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  What compare the U.S Coast Guard’s actions with that of the Greek Coast Guard? They are two distinct and unrelated organizations. And from what I’ve read about, the U.S Coast Guard are awesome folks that’ll trip over each other to save anyone if they can..
uppiiii765 3y ago
Is it? We (I say this not from my point of view) don't want to see poor people. We don't relate to them and we think they should just be successful in their countries. In contrast there is someone who is part of us, not poor, has achieved something and entertained us in an interesting way. Of course we will try to help them and not those refugees. The mental issue of us living great while 3th world countries exist is nothing new for a long time. It's now even so old that there is research done on how to help people because the obvious things didn't work.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
RektBoy 3y ago
[flagged]
- passer_byer 3y ago
  Because regardless how you classify them, they are humans who deserve our empathy and compassion.
- WitCanStain 3y ago
  Sometimes I wonder what it is that enables some people to have empathy for strangers but others not. Is it mostly your upbringing? Genetics? Can people like you be fixed, or are you incorrigible?
  - thedrbrian 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - RektBoy 3y ago
    It is German, Norway, Denmark, UK ... crime statistics.
- jraph 3y ago
  Because they are fellow human beings struggling. People migrating illegally don't do it for pleasure. They have usually run out of other solutions. Can you imagine having to decide to do such a risky thing? They know they risk their life doing so. Which is on top of having to leave your family, friends and the place you probably love to eventually probably find a shitty job and having to be subjected to a lot of difficulties, administrative non-sense, and everything else. Maybe the EU has its fair share of responsibility in the causes pushing people migrating "illegally" too. Migrants are not the issue. The system that forces them to migrate is.
belorn 3y ago
I would not read too much into it. Media coverage in this context is mostly about how sensentional and novel the news is. People get lost at sea all the time, in particularly in fishing and shipping industry. The average person is very similar to those people and yet such events dont generally create international news.
- nicce 3y ago
  It is less about the media but more about the response of officials. How many boats were send to look for a single submarine? All the way from the France? When they could have been sent to Mediterranean sea as well.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
    Why would you send specialized submarine search and recovery ships to Mediterranean? If makes zero sense, they serve very different purpose.
    - nicce 3y ago
      Exactly. You use a lot of resources to send help on the other side of the world for people who volunteeringly went to bottom of the ocean knowing risks and just for fun. But you don't use resources to help people who are forced to leave their country and now are drowning in the sea.
  - belorn 3y ago
    How many boats are sent international if a fishing boat outside Thailand or Norway don't return home? What if a old transport ship goes missing in a storm? Occasionally we can see here on HN stories about lost sailors being rescued after weeks lost in the water, or shipwrecked on some remote rock. The common theme for those stories is that there wasn't a bunch of ships that went looking for them for weeks. For every person who survived such event, many more died. When there is a lot of media coverage you also tend to get more reaction by officials, which then generate even more media coverage. It is the same concept why a individual can create a story on HN and reach people at google/facebook/apple, while thousands of users can have an identical situation and never reach a single person from support. It not a fair system but its a very well understood phenomenon.
stuaxo 3y ago
The funny thing is - they probably are closer to becoming a refugee.
croes 3y ago
The war in Ukraine showed the average person is more likely to become a refugee than paying a quarter million dollars for a trip to the Titanic.
slashdev 3y ago
Refugee boats go down in the Mediterranean all the time. At this point it’s hardly news. That’s not in any way to detract from the tragedy, just pointing out one reason why it’s barely covered. Once something becomes common, it’s not news anymore.
ovulator 3y ago
I feel the same way, but I guess 5 deaths are a tragedy, 300 is a statistic.
matwood 3y ago
You completely missed the fact that this is about the Titanic. People are fascinated by what happened to a lot of other rich people back then.
ummonk 3y ago
I don't think it has much to do with refugees vs. holiday trip. Other stories of (potentially) trapped people such as the Thai soccer team or the Chilean miners received similar nonstop coverage and media attention.
major505 3y ago
Its because theres not much to do in case of the mediterranean disasaster. The thing sanked, you rescue the the survivors, then departed them back to the country of origin. Also, this happened before. In the case of the sub, there where a chance to find them alive. This makes the story more compelling.
jacquesm 3y ago
The one happened once, the other happens every day. That doesn't make it any less sad but that's the reason why the one got disproportionate coverage, it's 'news' by definition, it happened the first time. If it would happen every day it would definitely not be covered to this degree, plus there is the 'race against time' component which allows the news to be stretched over several news cycles.
dagaci 3y ago
It’s the novelty of the situation, even absurdity and even the inspired incredulity……. on the other hand the poor trying to get richer and dying trying does not create new pathways in the brain
stef25 3y ago
First time I read the comparison with the Med disaster and couldn't agree more. I'm never the first one to start whining about refugee related disasters but hundreds of women & children drowning on a boat after having been in a miserable state for days on end is just the worst. Other boats had been circling it for days and apart from providing some food & water nothing was done. Maybe an attempt to tow it, which could well have led to the capsizing. How could such a ship have been rescued? Any attempt at evacuation would have probably led to a capsizing anyway due to people moving around in a panic, unless ... the boat was wedged between two strong boats?
- philistine 3y ago
  No one anywhere has mentioned that but it’s true. The amount of people meant any sort of rescue might have been doomed to failure.
bigbillheck 3y ago
> And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. The average person here might think they are, but they'd be deluding themselves.

tacker2000 3y ago

This is unrelated to the article and can also be seen as political flamebait.

Philip-J-Fry 3y ago

I think the migrant boat disaster is horrible. But I was more interested in this missing sub because it was a bit mysterious what happened to it initially. Then it all comes out how badly built it is, how it's a death trap, etc. It's just more interesting personally. It doesn't mean it's worse than the migrant boat, it's just more interesting and I'd rather read about it. Mysterious cases always get more traction on social media too. There was an instance in the UK where a woman went missing near a river. People were speculating for weeks about what had happened. They would travel to the location and try and be detectives. It's was insane. People said it was because she was a white woman, but I don't think it's that. It's just the mystery of not knowing what happened and a body not being found straight away after divers searched the area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley Same goes for the sub. It's not because it was full of billionaires. It was because it was from a company infamous for cutting corners and people wanting confirmation that it did in fact implode. It also just boggles the mind why people who are so wealthy would get in something so shoddily put together. They have the money to fund a whole expedition like James Cameron did, but they'd rather increase the risk of death by an order of magnitude.

jl6 3y ago
The contrasting coverage is IMHO largely due to the novelty of the situation, and nothing to do with any moral judgement on the victims. Tragically, migrant boat disasters are common.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  It was also the 'ticking clock' factor of the limited oxygen, a countdown of a few days, giving hope for a heroic rescue. People can't survive for long in cold seas. By the time a migrant boat disaster makes the news, hopes of finding survivors may already have faded.
  - tremon 3y ago
    The Mediterranean Sea isn't particularly cold this time of year, are you confusing the locations of the two incidents?
itake 3y ago
Do you have any details about why it was a death trap? I watched one video that complained about off the shelf parts being used, but the two examples was an RV light (not safety related) and the gaming controller (which they had multiple back ups). They also claimed to have been reviewed by Boeing and University of Washington. There was 7 different mechanisms that could force a return. Some of those were purely mechanical. Clearly the sub wasn’t safe enough, but I’m not seeing anything that makes it obviously badly built.
- ryanthemadone 3y ago
  This flying lady doctor had lots to say on this https://twitter.com/LadyDoctorSays/status/1671700989429297152 https://twitter.com/LadyDoctorSays/status/167170098942929715...
- cma 3y ago
  The whistleblower said they used flammable interior materials. Were the Camper World lights inflammable to the standards of submarines?

mytailorisrich 3y ago

> than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. A migrants boat. Most of the people crossing the Med into Europe are economic migrants but in the past decade it has become known that claiming asylum on arrival (or at least if caught) is a good strategy so many do.

InexSquirrel 3y ago
Interesting point, I wasn't aware of the distinction between economic migrant and refugee > Refugee immigrants are unable or unwilling to return home for fear or threat of prosecution, and thus, must make a life in the country that gives them refuge. Economic immigrants, on the other hand, are free from this constraint and can return home whenever they so desire.[1] But then further clarification of the term 'economic migrant' is also interesting: > The term ‘economic migrant’ has no legal definition. It is not mentioned in any international instruments of migration law. and > The inaccurate dichotomy between ‘economic migrants’ and refugees creates two fixed categories and gives the misleading impression that only refugees have and deserve legal protection and rights at the international level. > Yet, the reality is different and far more complex. Migratory movements are composed of various types of migrants who may have specific protection needs, even if they are not fleeing persecution or a conflict. These include accompanied or unaccompanied migrant children; victims of human trafficking; migrants attempting to reunite with their families; and migrants affected by natural disasters or environmental degradation, including as a consequence of climate change. [2] [1] https://docs.iza.org/dp1063.pdf https://docs.iza.org/dp1063.pdf [2] https://weblog.iom.int/false-dichotomy-between-economic-migrants-and-refugees https://weblog.iom.int/false-dichotomy-between-economic-migr...
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  Since the only country at war that borders EU is Ukraine I don't think that people from any other countries could be considered refugees.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  I am a bit puzzled by your comment. A 'refugee' has a legal definition because this is a status that is created and governed by international treaties, which is what makes it interesting for migrants because in 'nice' countries like in Europe this means that they are protected from deportation while their claim to refugee status is processed, which can take a very long time. They are provided accomodation during that time. All other migrants are simply people who migrate for whatever reason people move to other countries, which are mainly family and economic reasons. When people from poor countries want to move to rich countries the main reason is very obviously economic. All those migrants fall into normal national laws of the countries they move to, in general this means that if they enter without visas they face a form of arrest and deportation. That's it. There is indeed in a clear dichotomy. The rest is purely a political/ideological point of view as to whether people have effectively a right to migrate vs. whether countries have a right to decide who to let in.

scotty79 3y ago

It's a better story. Story of punished hubris of the rich who disregard everybody including experts. While another refugee boat sunk is just that.

spaceman_2020 3y ago

Bad things happening to well-off people gets outsized attention not because people care more about the rich, but because it knocks the wheels off one of the foundational beliefs of capitalism: that moving up the wealth ladder will shield you from the miseries that befall the poor. If being rich doesn’t protect you, then nothing can, and that makes capitalism rather meaningless. Might not be true in this case - the very idea of people locked up in a submarine is attention grabbing - but its certainly true for countless similar laments where people will point out the outsized attention a random investment banker getting attacked would get vis-a-vis the many murders in the inner city on any given day.

Bukhmanizer 3y ago

I don’t think people should be too surprised that the news cycle doesn’t exactly reward the biggest tragedies. Not to mention the fact that it only became such a big story largely because so many people were dunking on the company/passengers. Unless you’re suggesting we should be spending more time dunking on dead refugees?

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

frereubu 3y ago

A better comparison is to the round-the-clock coverage of the Chilean miners who were stuck underground, and the boys who were eventually rescued from the cave in Thailand. Your comparison is apples to oranges. The Messenia disaster was over by the time it hit the news (and it was covered extensively in the UK press), whereas the Titan situation was ongoing. Watch how quickly it disappears from the news cycle now it's been resolved.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

I understand that it is difficult to speculate on why the news covers one subject or another, and certainly the other comments have a point about being trapped being scary, or people laughing at the misfortune of the powerful being good for clickbait. I just want to say, another issue is that to be perfectly honest, we don't like to humanize migrants, nor do we want to examine our culpability in their misfortune and demise. We want to mine resources from foreign countries even if that means destabilizing their governments, but we absolutely do not want to deal with the people fleeing those places whether we had nothing to do with their misfortune or we were in some way complicit. The misfortune of a few rich guys is much easier for us to process than the avoidable death of hundreds, which was reportedly ultimately caused by the European Coast Guard who attempted to tow the vessel and in doing so supposedly caused it to sink. [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/world/europe/greece-migrant-boat-disaster.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/world/europe/greece-migra...

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

Something about tragedies, and something about statistics... But there's also the concern of frequency, [2] occurs more frequent than [1], people generally don't care about the people at [2] because they are "unimportant", and not prominent in any way. They are background characters on the other side of the world for many, they are not well dressed, they do not perform functions with significant influence on the broader society. Or at least so they are perceived by the general public. They are labelled illegal immigrants, or leeches, or whatever else because people in many places can't fathom being born in a third world or very poor country and doing everything in your power to make it out. Imagine, feeling so low, that you'd give everything, your life even, for a chance, a sliver of chance, at what others are born into.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
The comparison between these two stories is being made (elsewhere on the Internet) because humans were literally still being found and fished out of the Mediterranean, alive, while entire nation states mobilized to try to rescue a few wreckless rich guys who were likely already dead. The point being made is about misallocation of resources, not news coverage. (Novel stories will always grab more attention.)
- civilitty 3y ago
  > while entire nation states mobilized Who? The US Navy/Coast Guard sending an ultra deepwater ROV isn't even comparable to the Greeks actively monitoring the boat enough to take a photo of it before it capsized, let alone is anyone mobilizing "entire nation states"
- umeshunni 3y ago
  > The point being made is about misallocation of resources, not news coverage. The families of the missing rich people have the resources to fund the search. The families of the missing people in the Mediterranean obviously do not.
  - bscphil 3y ago

Gerard0 3y ago

Thanks for this. I had no idea.

timeon 3y ago

I agree with your observation but Mediterranean disaster had coverage since last week at least in European news I am following. This accident will also soon disappear from the news since we now know the fate.

sandworm101 3y ago
How many rescue ships were deployed to the med incident? How many to the titanic? The victims/ships ratio demonstrates that one garnered exponentially more government attention.
- stef25 3y ago
  > one garnered exponentially more government attention It wouldn't be surprising that some of those rescue ships were funded by the families of the victims, considering the size of their bank accounts.
- sigstoat 3y ago
  different countries of very different sizes and capabilities were near the incidents. the US and Canadian coast guards don't operate in the Mediterranean, and (presumably) couldn't have gotten ships there fast enough to do anything about it, anyways.
  - unnamed76ri 3y ago
    Splitting hairs here but the US Navy has several bases in the Mediterranean. Though I don’t know where vessels were related to the refugee boat or how quickly that tragedy began and ended.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > How many rescue ships were deployed to the med incident? How many to the titanic? I don't know. Do you ? From wikipedia: "Immediately following the sinking, the Greek Coast Guard and the military initiated a massive search and rescue operation."

renewiltord 3y ago

Yes, it's more similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue than to other disasters, which should illustrate that it's not about the kind of people so much as the story itself. I lived in South Asia for a while and the thing that would strike me is the everyday catastrophes. For instance, there was a recent Indian derailment that you barely heard about here in the US https://apnews.com/article/india-passenger-train-derail-deadly-accident-dd0c82012f9e14016b58d09eb3adec2d https://apnews.com/article/india-passenger-train-derail-dead... 275 deaths.

gamblor956 3y ago
For instance, there was a recent Indian derailment that you barely heard about here in the US It was only covered in the NYT, LAT, WaPo, Chicago Tribune, WSJ, USAT, NPR, CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, NBC News, and CBS News....just to name a few.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Fair enough. Same places as the Greek migrants, so I suppose we were operating with a false premise. Most things are quite well covered irrespective of whom the victims were.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tailspin2019 3y ago

I reflected on this too. I think the key differentiator is the context of the submarine situation unfolding in realtime, with action which could still be taken, and an unknown future outcome, as opposed to an event which was reported on retrospectively, after the disaster had happened. But the contrast is still striking between both the situations and media reporting of 5 rich men vs 700 of some of the world’s poorest and most desperate people. Both are unbelievably tragic. The reporting on the Mediterranean disaster seems to have gone a lot quieter than I would have expected given what we now know about how the Greek authorities story simply does not match up with what actually seems to have happened. (It seems like there may have been an opportunity to prevent that disaster).

codetrotter 3y ago

> the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean There is no way in hell I would pay $250k to board a janky-ass sub going deep into the ocean. For $250k, I could buy a nice house for me, my girlfriend and our future family. And even that is not possible yet. Because I don’t have that kind of money.

emeril 3y ago
maybe so but a lot of contributors here are pretty loaded and could def drop $250k on something on a whim
soperj 3y ago
> For $250k, I could buy a nice house for me, my girlfriend and our future family. That's not even enough of down payment for a tear down where I live!
- codetrotter 3y ago
  Relocate :D In the city I was born I don’t think there is room for a couple with kids anywhere near $250k. Probably I’d need $400k or more there for any kind of suitable housing. In the city where I rent currently, maybe just barely. But my hope is to scrape together enough savings and then buy a house or flat for us somewhere in the world where $250k or thereabouts would be sufficient.
asynchronous 3y ago
Reminder too that literally everyone is one country-ending catastrophic event away from being on a refugee boat
- hguant 3y ago
  This is something of a false equivalence - yes, "everyone" is at risk from a country ending event, but not all countries are equally at risk.
- 3y ago

kitd 3y ago

I think the idea of being trapped in a confined space kilometers under the sea has a visceral effect on the imagination that a boat voyage on the surface doesn't, regardless of how tragic the outcome is in both events. It pokes and prods many of our deep phobias. Similar stories like the Thai boys trapped in the cave, or the Chilean miners, had a similar effect. A bit like "Snakes on a plane". Again, trapped with your phobias.

nomel 3y ago
Yes, it's good entertainment, for many.
finitemonkey 3y ago
[flagged]
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  You’re just looking for outrage where there is none.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Regarding drowning people in the Mediteranian and eslewhere, yes, there should be more, and constant, outrage. It says a lot about Western society that there isn't, that it doesn't even really make the news anymore...
    - boeingUH60 3y ago
      It made the news everywhere around the world. But perpetually outraged people gonna find anything to outrage about anyways..
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Oh, there should be outrage about the kere fact we allow those disasters, the migrants and not the rich people at the Titanic, to happen. There isn't, and some news coverage is by no means enough. But hey, we in the West are fine not worrying too much about some poor folks Africa dying at our door steps. Because doing so, would force us to face the fact that we are by no means as morally superior than we like to think, and just convinced ourselves to be with all the help Ukrainian refugees got. So, we prefer not to think about it, as a society.

olalonde 3y ago

It's just that experimental submarines vanishing on their way to the Titanic are much more unusual and intriguing than boating accidents. There was also an element of suspense since the fate of the sub was unknown (similar to flight MH370).

sireat 3y ago

In European news both events received significant coverage. Local news trumps global. I am sure in Greece the Messenia migrant boat disaster got more coverage than Titan. That said, the big factor is how sadly common migrant boat disasters are (just like liquid gas exploding in a restaurant in China and killing 10+ people, happened yesterday). Carbon fiber submersible on the way to Titanic containing cocky inventor, plus billionaire, plus kid hits so many spots for news cycle.

lm28469 3y ago

> And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. My opinion is the complete opposite, I think it has more coverage because it's a feel good event for 90% of the world who absolutely despise rich fucks in that specific part of the dumb X rich venn diagram I haven't seen a single post about how sad the sub story is... it's all memes and people amazed at how stupid humans can be

stef25 3y ago
It's not so much stupidity as knowingly embarking on a dangerous adventure for the purpose of fun, basically. Someone who took the trip before said they had to sign a waver which mentioned death multiple times. It's like climbing Everest, walking to the north pole, commercial space flights, base jumping etc. The med disaster was people embarking on a dangerous "adventure" out of what they perceived as being a necessity. Of course all lives should be regarded as being equal.
- lm28469 3y ago
  This all feels like a parody to be honest, at least previous explorers were.... exploring Now people _pay_ to be carried on the Everest, pay for a ticket to space, pay for a ticket to the titanic, &c. There is nothing left so they fight for the crumbs, looking for the next dumbest idea on the list
  - stef25 3y ago
    Yeah couldn't agree more. "Into thin air" about a disaster on Everest describes very well how some, if not most, of the people in the group had never been anywhere near a mountain half as challenging as Everest. Some even had brand new boots, which anyone with half a brain knows is a bad idea. A few did turn out to be tough bastards though, spending several days up there alone in a state of delirium and eventually making it back down on their own accord. Guardian also mentioned a Mexican Youtuber having taken the trip down to the Titanic in that titanium coffin, just for clicks & views.
- 3y ago

j-a-a-p 3y ago

Also the coastguards were tripping over each other to save these 5 men, while for the refugees the speculation is if the coastguard contributed to the wrecking.

jacquesm 3y ago
Whose speculation?
- stef25 3y ago
  The Greek coast guard gave conflicting statements about having tied a rope to the boat to try and tow it to the shore. First they did, then they didn't.
- j-a-a-p 3y ago
  Me it seems. I thought to have read the boat capsized while being towed, as claimed by one of the survivors. Being towed could be an involuntary act, while throwing a line seems solely meant to help. > The 104 survivors of the tragedy have very limited mobility and access to communications. Some of them said Greek Coast Guard vessels threw them a line shortly before their vessel capsized [1] On a personal note. I myself got once rescued by the navy with their Zodiac. That was a mutually fantastic experience. I believe that coastguards anywhere would prefer to rescue above anything else, that is what they signed up for. I hope this dual tragedy will help the leadership to remove anything that creeps between that objective. [1] https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-06-20/greece-imposes-silence-around-shipwreck-of-overcrowded-migrant-boat.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-06-20/greece-i...
boeingUH60 3y ago
What compare the U.S Coast Guard’s actions with that of the Greek Coast Guard? They are two distinct and unrelated organizations. And from what I’ve read about, the U.S Coast Guard are awesome folks that’ll trip over each other to save anyone if they can..

uppiiii765 3y ago

Is it? We (I say this not from my point of view) don't want to see poor people. We don't relate to them and we think they should just be successful in their countries. In contrast there is someone who is part of us, not poor, has achieved something and entertained us in an interesting way. Of course we will try to help them and not those refugees. The mental issue of us living great while 3th world countries exist is nothing new for a long time. It's now even so old that there is research done on how to help people because the obvious things didn't work.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

RektBoy 3y ago

[flagged]

passer_byer 3y ago
Because regardless how you classify them, they are humans who deserve our empathy and compassion.
WitCanStain 3y ago
Sometimes I wonder what it is that enables some people to have empathy for strangers but others not. Is it mostly your upbringing? Genetics? Can people like you be fixed, or are you incorrigible?
- thedrbrian 3y ago
  [flagged]
- RektBoy 3y ago
  It is German, Norway, Denmark, UK ... crime statistics.
jraph 3y ago
Because they are fellow human beings struggling. People migrating illegally don't do it for pleasure. They have usually run out of other solutions. Can you imagine having to decide to do such a risky thing? They know they risk their life doing so. Which is on top of having to leave your family, friends and the place you probably love to eventually probably find a shitty job and having to be subjected to a lot of difficulties, administrative non-sense, and everything else. Maybe the EU has its fair share of responsibility in the causes pushing people migrating "illegally" too. Migrants are not the issue. The system that forces them to migrate is.

belorn 3y ago

I would not read too much into it. Media coverage in this context is mostly about how sensentional and novel the news is. People get lost at sea all the time, in particularly in fishing and shipping industry. The average person is very similar to those people and yet such events dont generally create international news.

nicce 3y ago
It is less about the media but more about the response of officials. How many boats were send to look for a single submarine? All the way from the France? When they could have been sent to Mediterranean sea as well.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
  Why would you send specialized submarine search and recovery ships to Mediterranean? If makes zero sense, they serve very different purpose.
  - nicce 3y ago
    Exactly. You use a lot of resources to send help on the other side of the world for people who volunteeringly went to bottom of the ocean knowing risks and just for fun. But you don't use resources to help people who are forced to leave their country and now are drowning in the sea.
- belorn 3y ago
  How many boats are sent international if a fishing boat outside Thailand or Norway don't return home? What if a old transport ship goes missing in a storm? Occasionally we can see here on HN stories about lost sailors being rescued after weeks lost in the water, or shipwrecked on some remote rock. The common theme for those stories is that there wasn't a bunch of ships that went looking for them for weeks. For every person who survived such event, many more died. When there is a lot of media coverage you also tend to get more reaction by officials, which then generate even more media coverage. It is the same concept why a individual can create a story on HN and reach people at google/facebook/apple, while thousands of users can have an identical situation and never reach a single person from support. It not a fair system but its a very well understood phenomenon.

stuaxo 3y ago

The funny thing is - they probably are closer to becoming a refugee.

croes 3y ago

The war in Ukraine showed the average person is more likely to become a refugee than paying a quarter million dollars for a trip to the Titanic.

slashdev 3y ago

Refugee boats go down in the Mediterranean all the time. At this point it’s hardly news. That’s not in any way to detract from the tragedy, just pointing out one reason why it’s barely covered. Once something becomes common, it’s not news anymore.

ovulator 3y ago

I feel the same way, but I guess 5 deaths are a tragedy, 300 is a statistic.

matwood 3y ago

You completely missed the fact that this is about the Titanic. People are fascinated by what happened to a lot of other rich people back then.

ummonk 3y ago

I don't think it has much to do with refugees vs. holiday trip. Other stories of (potentially) trapped people such as the Thai soccer team or the Chilean miners received similar nonstop coverage and media attention.

major505 3y ago

Its because theres not much to do in case of the mediterranean disasaster. The thing sanked, you rescue the the survivors, then departed them back to the country of origin. Also, this happened before. In the case of the sub, there where a chance to find them alive. This makes the story more compelling.

jacquesm 3y ago

The one happened once, the other happens every day. That doesn't make it any less sad but that's the reason why the one got disproportionate coverage, it's 'news' by definition, it happened the first time. If it would happen every day it would definitely not be covered to this degree, plus there is the 'race against time' component which allows the news to be stretched over several news cycles.

dagaci 3y ago

It’s the novelty of the situation, even absurdity and even the inspired incredulity……. on the other hand the poor trying to get richer and dying trying does not create new pathways in the brain

stef25 3y ago

First time I read the comparison with the Med disaster and couldn't agree more. I'm never the first one to start whining about refugee related disasters but hundreds of women & children drowning on a boat after having been in a miserable state for days on end is just the worst. Other boats had been circling it for days and apart from providing some food & water nothing was done. Maybe an attempt to tow it, which could well have led to the capsizing. How could such a ship have been rescued? Any attempt at evacuation would have probably led to a capsizing anyway due to people moving around in a panic, unless ... the boat was wedged between two strong boats?

philistine 3y ago
No one anywhere has mentioned that but it’s true. The amount of people meant any sort of rescue might have been doomed to failure.

bigbillheck 3y ago

> And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. The average person here might think they are, but they'd be deluding themselves.