14 ms·

'Incredibly noticeable': alcohol ban cut family violence, crime in Alice Springs

97 points by hugh-avherald 3y ago

bigdang 3y ago
So what? We’ve been here before. We already know the effects alcohol has. But we also know the effects alcohol bans have.
- wlesieutre 3y ago
  Great way to give a lot of money to organized crime
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Organized crime will always exist as long as there is human demand for something illegal, it's how aggressively you manage it (investigate, jail, or in some countries, execute, depending on the crime, measured harm, etc).
    - adventured 3y ago
      Organized crime at scale only ever exists due to the government manifesting it through a prohibition that shouldn't have been put into place. The organized at scale (beyond just a gang in a neighborhood) aspect of it requires considerable ongoing capital infusion, which you can only get from a sustainable extraction of economy. It's that pocket of black market economy that is always created by government action, without exception. Every large gang operation in the US rides on top of government prohibition or otherwise preys on regressive regulation. The war on drugs being the greatest example in recorded history.
  - chris_wot 3y ago
    That isn’t happening in Alice Springs.
    - SteveNuts 3y ago
      You’re right, it’s probably all the surrounding communities.
      - richardjam73 3y ago
        What surrounding communities?
        Turing_Machine 3y ago
        Google Maps seems to show a fair number of small settlements in the general area, but not within the city limits of Alice Springs.
        richardjam73 3y ago
        I'm bad at explaining this. Remote Australia is not like the rest of world. It is not easy to supply these places with goods. Doing so illegally is even more difficult. Those outlying communities are not just relay points in some chain going back to the coastal cities. Like you would get in other places.
  - steve76 3y ago
    [dead]
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  Indeed, they were there before. Until 1 year ago, they had alcohol bans in place. They brought those back.
  - willsmith72 3y ago
    To be clear, the bans began in 07/08, and expired at the start of this year. After a short time without the ban, it was reinstated in February
    - Tao3300 3y ago
      Was anyone surprised they didn't develop a responsible drinking culture while alcohol was banned?
sashenka 3y ago
[dead]
sctb 3y ago
There have also been a number of studies looking at the effects of the alcohol ban in South Africa during the pandemic lockdown; for example: https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article/doi/10.1162/rest_a_01228/112423/Alcohol-Violence-and-Injury-Induced-Mortality https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article/doi/10.1162/rest_a_01228... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211419X21000586 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211419X2...
VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
There are many so-called "dry counties" in USA where the sale of alcohol is prohibited. And that's perfectly fine if that's what that community wants to do. But as we learned from Prohibition, it's basically impossible to impose that kind of ban on an entire western society. But localized bans? Fine. Do what you want.
- jagraff 3y ago
  Iirc dry counties tend to have more drunk driving accidents than wet counties. Reason being that people in those counties drive to neighboring counties, get drunk, and then drive home.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I grew up in a dry county. From my experience, most people drove to wet counties to purchase alcohol to bring back to the dry county to drink at home or at parties.
  - nwienert 3y ago
    sounds like one of those just-so stories people want to believe
    - SkyPuncher 3y ago
      The Wikipedia article [0] has a nice summary of a few studies. Notably > Data from the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA) showed that in Texas, the fatality rate in alcohol-related accidents in dry counties was 6.8 per 10,000 people over a five-year period. That was three times the rate in wet counties: 1.9 per 10,000.[18][19] A study in Arkansas came to a similar conclusion - that accident rates were higher in dry counties than in wet [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county
      - _euqm 3y ago
        Any MS student could come up with several possibilities for statistical lies within that phrasing.
adolph 3y ago
Some good results may come from bad processes. In that way a ban is similar to alcohol abuse in that it may feel good in the moment but have pernicious long term effects. Have been reading Why Buddhism is True: The Science and Philosophy of Meditation and Enlightenment by Robert Wright https://www.amazon.com/Why-Buddhism-True-Philosophy-Enlightenment/dp/1439195455 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Buddhism-True-Philosophy-Enlighte...
pixel3234 3y ago
It would be interesting to track other stats. With alcohol person can be active while intoxicated, they can move and talk... Some other drugs may knock them out much earlier. So if people start using harder substitute drugs, there may be raise of drug overdose, while domestic violence goes down. Also in some countries effect may be opposite. During covid lockdowns people were not allowed to go to pubs (leave home) and domestic violence raised. Lockdowns were effectively strong prohibition.
manicennui 3y ago
I don't think we should go down the road of prohibiting alcohol (or most other drugs) again, but I think it is clear to anyone who has been out with groups of people drinking that a sizable portion of the population has no ability to behave when under the influence and probably shouldn't be drinking. I don't know what the solution is, but we should probably start with not glorifying and promoting regular drinking as much as we do.
- empyrrhicist 3y ago
  We banned tobacco advertisements in most places - it seems like alcohol should probably be in a similar category.
  - soligern 3y ago
    [dead]
  - ericmay 3y ago
    We should work toward banning most advertisements in most public places really. If you admit that these ads manipulate people into buying or consuming products they might not otherwise buy or consume, it's easy to extend that down to other products as well. Giant roadside billboards, for example, have no place in America.
    - lamontcg 3y ago
      Ban intrusive advertising entirely. Make it so that you have to actually go looking for it, with a product in mind to buy, or just generally be in a shopping kind of mood in order to see it. Our world would be a dramatically different place without all the constant drains on our attention trying desperately to get us to consume.
    - empyrrhicist 3y ago
      True
    - donatj 3y ago
bloaf 3y ago
> Indigenous people and advocates have long warned restrictions and bans are not the solution, urging action on addressing drivers of harm such as... family violence. The bans reduced domestic violence calls by 37%. It sounds like the advocates don't want to appear paternalistic, and that led to them opposing measures that actually help a lot.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  There are other drivers behind domestic violence, some of which compound with alcohol as people use alcohol as a sort of self treatment - mostly unemployment, low-wage environment, high-stress work environments and a lack of access to mental health care. These three can be fixed or at least be controlled by decent minimum wage laws, workplace safety/worker protection regulation, and by investing into mental health care. Another big part, particularly in rural/conservative areas or in young people scooping up the propaganda of Andrew Tate and his ilk by the mouthful, are toxic masculinity ideals... but honestly I don't have an idea how to fight that kind of ideology other than getting the mouthpieces deplatformed and arrested.
  - bloaf 3y ago
    This was in Australia, which already has universal health care and a minimum wage of $23.23 (AUD).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- _euqm 3y ago
  Related to the fact that I initially wrote, then deleted, then wrote a milder form of a pre-apology for voicing helpful experience in a thread about a reduction in domestic violence.
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  I have seen a lot of indigenous advocates and leaders actually being in favor of prohibition. They sometimes see outsiders parking their alcohol businesses right outside the limits of the (dry?) reservation as exploitive, colonialist capitalism.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
There are a lot of things that can be done to limit alcohol without outright prohibition that may be worth exploring. An example is what has been done with smoking. 1. Ban all alcohol advertisements. There is a ton of advertising that normalizes and glamorizes alcohol use. 2. Ban alcohol sales at large public venues like stadiums, concerts, etc. 3. Require companies to ban alcohol at all company sponsored events. Doing these things would greatly cut down on alcohol use, while not prohibiting it and running into issues at Prohibition.
- User23 3y ago
  > 1. Ban all alcohol advertisements. There is a ton of advertising that normalizes and glamorizes alcohol use. This reminds me of the South Park "Please Drink Responsibly" advertisement that you can find on YouTube[1]. It's one of those great examples of funny, because it's true. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJWEJuKXZyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJWEJuKXZyk
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago
  1. Banning adverts is a fine idea. 2. I think you overestimate the number of people willing to sit through a sporting event or concert while sober. 3. Great, even more reason to skip company events.
  - michalf6 3y ago
    2. Good. Are those events even worth keeping alive, if you need to get drunk to endure them? Something better will take their place. 3. Someone who feels pressured to drink at these would disagree. Especially someone who tries to limit their intake.
    - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
      3. You disagree that I think it would be good to not have alcohol at company events? Odd take for someone trying to limit their intake.
ozzydave 3y ago
Alice Springs and the NT are too different from almost anywhere in the western world to translate this elsewhere. For example it’s 3 hours drive to the next settlement that might sell alcohol, which makes enforcement a different proposition.
- aortailwjrt 3y ago
  Not really. I've visited Native American towns in North America where alcohol is banned and the locals (at least the locals over 25 years old) are quite supportive of the bans.
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    There are plenty of Alaska Native villages that are much more isolated than Alice Springs (for one, Alice Springs actually has a road going to it -- not the case with many Alaskan communities). Some villages are "dry", some "wet". Both have associated problems. It's almost like social problems can't always be solved by passing laws.
  - cjs_ac 3y ago
    Did BP have to create a special blend of fuel to sell in those communities to prevent petrol sniffing, because they did for outback Australia. It really is a uniquely fucked up place.
  - lemmiwinks 3y ago
    1920's Prohibition was also quite supported by the local population, it was voted in... Anyhow OP's point is regarding the efficiency of prohibition, not about support.
TrackerFF 3y ago
So it seems like alcohol/substance abuse is a problem in places with a large indigenous population. From native Americans, to Inuits on Greenland, to Aboriginals - it seems to be a well-documented phenomenon. Lots of lingering trauma all around, which is probably compounded in the more rural areas. I remember when visiting Greenland a couple of years ago, the alcoholism was rampant there (along with racism, but that's another discussion), and apparently it was pretty common with smaller bans around surge periods (https://www.arctictoday.com/alcohol-is-banned-in-an-east-greenland-town-after-a-surge-of-violence/ https://www.arctictoday.com/alcohol-is-banned-in-an-east-gre...)
- barbazoo 3y ago
  Correlation is not necessarily causation. Important to consider socioeconomic factors. Those populations are also often the most vulnerable and disadvantaged.
- aortailwjrt 3y ago
  Alcoholism is a problem in many indigenous communities, because alcohol affects many indigenous people much more severely than it affects people descended from Europe and Asia. But substance abuse is a problem more generally in pretty much all poor communities around the world, and also in pretty much any very isolated community where people are flat out bored all the time. And many, perhaps most indigenous communities have been intentionally fenced into poverty and isolation.
- dfxm12 3y ago
  alcoholism was rampant there (along with racism, but that's another discussion) I don't think it is. Just from this article: “We’ve got to address poverty, inequality, unemployment, educational attainment, early childhood, trauma, the very things that we know make a big difference in terms of being able to live safely with alcohol but that will take time,” Racism is a (the?) reason indigenous peoples face these issues to begin with.
  - netsharc 3y ago
    For the readers silently dismissing the idea of racism being the problem, read this[1] about George Floyd. In a different world he would've been the heir of a family who owned a tobacco farm, not someone who grew up poor and harassed by cops. But oh no, we can't mention "Critical Race Theory" lest some snowflakes get triggered... [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099585400/george-floyd-biography-book https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099585400/george-floyd-biogr...
_euqm 3y ago
At the risk of sounding unintentionally self congratulatory: Once sober for years, the largest external before and after observation was the difference in emotional lability between people who drink regularly and anyone else. I'm not talking about only when drinking, but rather at any time. One of the darkest lies that alcohol tells is that its effects are limited to when it is being consumed. Instead, consider how strong its effects are when one consumes it. The strength of that effect is related to the strength of the all-the-time effect on one's brain. We can't stimulate GABA to that degree, and whatever else it does, and not expect it to have effects on, say, anger and general emotional control in the interstitial periods between drinking. Regaining one's fine emotional control, after a long-time regular drinking habit, is also a process of years that are mined with danger like excessive anxiety. If years of drinking matches a person's profile, they might seek the help of a physician to help the long-term sobriety adjustment process. Even if one doesn't feel addicted.
- voisin 3y ago
  How long did it take you to see a noticeable change and how long / how much were you drinking (if you’re willing to share!).
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    Also curious. I drink, but pretty sparingly (a beer or two per month typically) and wonder where the threshold is, if there's a threshold at all (meaning any amount has these effects).
    - garciasn 3y ago
      Like with any intoxicant, volume affecting behavior depends entirely on each and every individual; full stop.
  - _euqm 3y ago
    "Noticeable change" is open for discussion. Beginning of it: within six months to two years, ever increasing. A limitation reached on full re-adjustment (as much emotional control as I could get back): six harrowing years without medical assistance. Not harrowing because I craved alcohol, but due to unprecedented anxiety that came around year two or three. Drinking term: 8 binge years (late high school through the end of college). 10 casual every-other weekend years after that. Nothing really begins to change until stone sober. It's impossible to achieve it, in my experience, if deferring to other vices with the exception of caffeine. No tobacco, marijuana, etc. They will lead to felt cognitive imbalances that will unavoidably be translated into cravings. A good gauge is being able to go six months, or more, without drinking and not care / not miss it and feel the urge. Once you can do that, you're on your way. One has to gauge their true addiction level to understand if they can handle very occasional alcohol after that. If there's any craving whatsoever, I'd rate a person too addicted to partake in any and maintain control over the frequency. If there is zero craving (again, use the six months or longer gauge), then it may be possible for, say, quarterly (or less) yet controlled outings with a non-sober friend. In other words, a couple of drinks. Though, this doesn't apply to fall-down alcoholics. Even if they supposedly never feel the urge, they need to treat their sobriety like a precious jewel never to be messed with. It depends on what one's goal is. If it is addiction management, then don't even think about alcohol and stay on the program for life. If it is to regain emotional function, then it may be a little different. But the journey is still very long.
cjs_ac 3y ago
A fair few comments here, but none address the specific situation in Alice Springs. Alice Springs is the major settlement of the 'Red Centre' of Australia, and is home to many Indigenous Australians. Indigenous Australians were culturally and genetically separated from the rest of humanity for tens of thousands of years, and, in a hungry continent where no fruit laid on the ground long enough to ferment, never interacted with alcohol until European settlement. Indigenous Australian societies had extremely limited material cultures because their environment afforded them such scarce resources with which to create one. European colonisation and subsequent attempts to both 'civilise' and exterminate Indigenous Australians were utterly deleterious to their palaeolithic culture. They no longer needed to hunt and gather for sustenance, and yet those in remote communities found it difficult to find meaningful participation in the economy that now provided for them (often through outright discrimination). Combine this with the introduction of alcohol, which intoxicates Indigenous Australians more effectively due to a complete lack of any tolerance for it, as well as other intoxicating substances, and we have a recipe for autogenocide, nearly as effective than the previous attempts through the Stolen Generations. Petrol stations in outback Australia sell a particular blend of fuel known as 'Opal fuel'[0]: it contains less of the aromatic compounds that give the 'high' to petrol sniffers, which is also rife amongst Indigenous communities. Kava, a mild narcotic from the South Pacific island nations and popular amongst their diaspora in Australia, can only be imported into Australia in limited conditions (only for personal use, and only 2 kg per individual arrival) because it was mixed with red wine in Indigenous communities for an extra 'kick'. Policies for improving conditions for Indigenous Australians in remote communities vary from the ineffectual to the authoritarian. (The 'Intervention' mentioned in the article is an example of the latter.) Allowing communities to be locally regulated by their Elders is a compromise, and the basis of the programme described in the article. post script: The above is a description of the situation in remote, outback communities, and administrative centres for those communities, like the towns and cities of the Northern Territory, such as Alice Springs and Darwin. The obvious question, then, is why don't Indigenous Australians move to more prosperous towns and cities? There are two answers. One is the poor life outcomes for those who historically did move to those areas, for example, the slums of Redfern and Blacktown[1] in Sydney. The other comes from the traditional spirituality or Lore of Indigenous communities: they don't believe that they own the land, but rather that the land owns them. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) 1: The area gained that name for awful reason you think it got that name.
jiggywiggy 3y ago
When blaming alcohol i always think of the middle east with low alcohol intake has highest rates of domestic violence. Which would suggest at the minimum that culture is a bigger factor. And also I'm curious to see if it evens out after a year. It could be that men who are more violent by nature tend to drink more. And that in societies where it's not accepted alcohol breaks the social barrier whereas middle eastern countries it's more accepted so alcohol is not needed.
- seydor 3y ago
  alcohol consumption and addiction are different things and are genetic, and lead to different behaviors https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sh...
dontknowwhyihn 3y ago
I’ve been to Alice Springs. It’s basically a mall and a trailer park in the middle of the desert. If I lived there, I’d be an alcoholic too.
dadrian 3y ago
If there's one thing prohibition is known for, it's lack of crime! Wait...
- simplicio 3y ago
  This isn't really prohibition though, just restrictions on sales. The point isn't to make it impossible to get a drink, just make it more difficult, so that some margin of drinkers will be incentivized to do something else. As a result, while Im sure some small blackmarkets for booze will spring up, there isn't really the same incentive for violent, organized criminal gangs to spring up as was/is the case with US alcohol/drug prohibition.
LatteLazy 3y ago
The complex interplays between personal and social harms and responsibilities, secondary effects, and cultural matters make this subject rife for disagreement...
friend_and_foe 3y ago
And if we ban people from interacting with each other altogether, violence can go to 0! People have to be given the autonomy to live their own lives. People have to be trusted by default not to violate the rights of others, because what other choice do we have? We are all just here, no rhyme or reason for it. And then, if someone hurts other people, that person should be fiercely and very publicly punished.
totalconfusion 3y ago
Prohibition will lead to abuse of other drugs and empower local criminal elements. Inhalants, petrol, glue, nitrous oxide. Whatever is available. There are no opportunities in these places, people get fucked up to make life more bearable. If you've never seen a remote town in outback Australia before, the film Cunnamulla (2000) is a pretty accurate representation. Might be a little dated but not much has changed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMyzyZcCJo&pp=ygUKY3VubmFtdWxsYQ%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMyzyZcCJo&pp=ygUKY3VubmFtdWx... The health of these communities is at serious risk when you force them in to using unregulated black market narcotics and cleaning products to get high.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >The health of these communities is at serious risk when you force them in to using unregulated black market narcotics and cleaning products to get high. In which case, all "drugs" should be legal, with safety/dosing standards and regulation. That removes the violence inherent in a black market and reduces negative health outcomes (overdoses, etc.). There are many other reasons (both economic and societal) for full legalization of all "drugs" as well.
  - stOneskull 3y ago
    > all "drugs" should be legal, with safety/dosing standards and regulation. i don't think 1 or 2 beers per day would be better than none. i think everyone would get their 2 beers even if they don't drink. so they can give them to others or use them for currency.
    - totalconfusion 3y ago
      How I read safety/dosing would be standardized weight/volume/concentration of the drug and not the idea of prohibiting sales over a certain amount per person per day. Which as you say would just turn in to a secondary market.
      - nobody9999 3y ago
anyonecancode 3y ago
Prohibition in the US really did dramatically cut down on alcohol consumption. It also was a terrible policy with all kinds of negative effects. So I think the takeaway is that 1. Yes, reducing alcohol consumption does make sense as a public health goal and 2. strict prohibition is a terrible way to go at this.
joker_minmax 3y ago
In America at least, I feel that alcoholism is somehow seen as less serious than addictions to "hard drugs", especially during the time of Fentanyl being present in many other drugs. For us the most affected place is Alaska. It's dark half the year and there's nothing to do but drink: which results in it having one of the highest rates of VAWG, DV and child abuse in the country, if not the highest. Meanwhile the rest of the anglophone world has culturally mandated alcoholism. Domestic violence spikes in the UK based on football outcomes during the World Cup - is it any wonder that could be connected to alcohol? Advertising matters and health information matters. We have PSAs from the ad council against nicotine but we don't have any against liver damage. If you've got family members with cirrhosis, you know what you're up against.

97 points by hugh-avherald 3y ago

So what? We’ve been here before. We already know the effects alcohol has. But we also know the effects alcohol bans have.

wlesieutre 3y ago
Great way to give a lot of money to organized crime
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Organized crime will always exist as long as there is human demand for something illegal, it's how aggressively you manage it (investigate, jail, or in some countries, execute, depending on the crime, measured harm, etc).
  - adventured 3y ago
    Organized crime at scale only ever exists due to the government manifesting it through a prohibition that shouldn't have been put into place. The organized at scale (beyond just a gang in a neighborhood) aspect of it requires considerable ongoing capital infusion, which you can only get from a sustainable extraction of economy. It's that pocket of black market economy that is always created by government action, without exception. Every large gang operation in the US rides on top of government prohibition or otherwise preys on regressive regulation. The war on drugs being the greatest example in recorded history.
- chris_wot 3y ago
  That isn’t happening in Alice Springs.
  - SteveNuts 3y ago
    You’re right, it’s probably all the surrounding communities.
    - richardjam73 3y ago
      What surrounding communities?
      - Turing_Machine 3y ago
        Google Maps seems to show a fair number of small settlements in the general area, but not within the city limits of Alice Springs.
        richardjam73 3y ago
        I'm bad at explaining this. Remote Australia is not like the rest of world. It is not easy to supply these places with goods. Doing so illegally is even more difficult. Those outlying communities are not just relay points in some chain going back to the coastal cities. Like you would get in other places.
- steve76 3y ago
  [dead]
lern_too_spel 3y ago
Indeed, they were there before. Until 1 year ago, they had alcohol bans in place. They brought those back.
- willsmith72 3y ago
  To be clear, the bans began in 07/08, and expired at the start of this year. After a short time without the ban, it was reinstated in February
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    Was anyone surprised they didn't develop a responsible drinking culture while alcohol was banned?

sashenka 3y ago

[dead]

sctb 3y ago

There have also been a number of studies looking at the effects of the alcohol ban in South Africa during the pandemic lockdown; for example: https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article/doi/10.1162/rest_a_01228/112423/Alcohol-Violence-and-Injury-Induced-Mortality https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article/doi/10.1162/rest_a_01228... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211419X21000586 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211419X2...

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

There are many so-called "dry counties" in USA where the sale of alcohol is prohibited. And that's perfectly fine if that's what that community wants to do. But as we learned from Prohibition, it's basically impossible to impose that kind of ban on an entire western society. But localized bans? Fine. Do what you want.

jagraff 3y ago
Iirc dry counties tend to have more drunk driving accidents than wet counties. Reason being that people in those counties drive to neighboring counties, get drunk, and then drive home.
- dylan604 3y ago
  I grew up in a dry county. From my experience, most people drove to wet counties to purchase alcohol to bring back to the dry county to drink at home or at parties.
- nwienert 3y ago
  sounds like one of those just-so stories people want to believe
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    The Wikipedia article [0] has a nice summary of a few studies. Notably > Data from the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA) showed that in Texas, the fatality rate in alcohol-related accidents in dry counties was 6.8 per 10,000 people over a five-year period. That was three times the rate in wet counties: 1.9 per 10,000.[18][19] A study in Arkansas came to a similar conclusion - that accident rates were higher in dry counties than in wet [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county
    - _euqm 3y ago
      Any MS student could come up with several possibilities for statistical lies within that phrasing.

adolph 3y ago

Some good results may come from bad processes. In that way a ban is similar to alcohol abuse in that it may feel good in the moment but have pernicious long term effects. Have been reading Why Buddhism is True: The Science and Philosophy of Meditation and Enlightenment by Robert Wright https://www.amazon.com/Why-Buddhism-True-Philosophy-Enlightenment/dp/1439195455 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Buddhism-True-Philosophy-Enlighte...

pixel3234 3y ago

It would be interesting to track other stats. With alcohol person can be active while intoxicated, they can move and talk... Some other drugs may knock them out much earlier. So if people start using harder substitute drugs, there may be raise of drug overdose, while domestic violence goes down. Also in some countries effect may be opposite. During covid lockdowns people were not allowed to go to pubs (leave home) and domestic violence raised. Lockdowns were effectively strong prohibition.

manicennui 3y ago

I don't think we should go down the road of prohibiting alcohol (or most other drugs) again, but I think it is clear to anyone who has been out with groups of people drinking that a sizable portion of the population has no ability to behave when under the influence and probably shouldn't be drinking. I don't know what the solution is, but we should probably start with not glorifying and promoting regular drinking as much as we do.

empyrrhicist 3y ago
We banned tobacco advertisements in most places - it seems like alcohol should probably be in a similar category.
- soligern 3y ago
  [dead]
- ericmay 3y ago
  We should work toward banning most advertisements in most public places really. If you admit that these ads manipulate people into buying or consuming products they might not otherwise buy or consume, it's easy to extend that down to other products as well. Giant roadside billboards, for example, have no place in America.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    Ban intrusive advertising entirely. Make it so that you have to actually go looking for it, with a product in mind to buy, or just generally be in a shopping kind of mood in order to see it. Our world would be a dramatically different place without all the constant drains on our attention trying desperately to get us to consume.
  - empyrrhicist 3y ago
    True
  - donatj 3y ago

bloaf 3y ago

> Indigenous people and advocates have long warned restrictions and bans are not the solution, urging action on addressing drivers of harm such as... family violence. The bans reduced domestic violence calls by 37%. It sounds like the advocates don't want to appear paternalistic, and that led to them opposing measures that actually help a lot.

mschuster91 3y ago
There are other drivers behind domestic violence, some of which compound with alcohol as people use alcohol as a sort of self treatment - mostly unemployment, low-wage environment, high-stress work environments and a lack of access to mental health care. These three can be fixed or at least be controlled by decent minimum wage laws, workplace safety/worker protection regulation, and by investing into mental health care. Another big part, particularly in rural/conservative areas or in young people scooping up the propaganda of Andrew Tate and his ilk by the mouthful, are toxic masculinity ideals... but honestly I don't have an idea how to fight that kind of ideology other than getting the mouthpieces deplatformed and arrested.
- bloaf 3y ago
  This was in Australia, which already has universal health care and a minimum wage of $23.23 (AUD).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
_euqm 3y ago
Related to the fact that I initially wrote, then deleted, then wrote a milder form of a pre-apology for voicing helpful experience in a thread about a reduction in domestic violence.
Robotbeat 3y ago
I have seen a lot of indigenous advocates and leaders actually being in favor of prohibition. They sometimes see outsiders parking their alcohol businesses right outside the limits of the (dry?) reservation as exploitive, colonialist capitalism.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

There are a lot of things that can be done to limit alcohol without outright prohibition that may be worth exploring. An example is what has been done with smoking. 1. Ban all alcohol advertisements. There is a ton of advertising that normalizes and glamorizes alcohol use. 2. Ban alcohol sales at large public venues like stadiums, concerts, etc. 3. Require companies to ban alcohol at all company sponsored events. Doing these things would greatly cut down on alcohol use, while not prohibiting it and running into issues at Prohibition.

User23 3y ago
> 1. Ban all alcohol advertisements. There is a ton of advertising that normalizes and glamorizes alcohol use. This reminds me of the South Park "Please Drink Responsibly" advertisement that you can find on YouTube[1]. It's one of those great examples of funny, because it's true. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJWEJuKXZyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJWEJuKXZyk
2023throwawayy 3y ago
1. Banning adverts is a fine idea. 2. I think you overestimate the number of people willing to sit through a sporting event or concert while sober. 3. Great, even more reason to skip company events.
- michalf6 3y ago
  2. Good. Are those events even worth keeping alive, if you need to get drunk to endure them? Something better will take their place. 3. Someone who feels pressured to drink at these would disagree. Especially someone who tries to limit their intake.
  - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
    3. You disagree that I think it would be good to not have alcohol at company events? Odd take for someone trying to limit their intake.

ozzydave 3y ago

Alice Springs and the NT are too different from almost anywhere in the western world to translate this elsewhere. For example it’s 3 hours drive to the next settlement that might sell alcohol, which makes enforcement a different proposition.

aortailwjrt 3y ago
Not really. I've visited Native American towns in North America where alcohol is banned and the locals (at least the locals over 25 years old) are quite supportive of the bans.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  There are plenty of Alaska Native villages that are much more isolated than Alice Springs (for one, Alice Springs actually has a road going to it -- not the case with many Alaskan communities). Some villages are "dry", some "wet". Both have associated problems. It's almost like social problems can't always be solved by passing laws.
- cjs_ac 3y ago
  Did BP have to create a special blend of fuel to sell in those communities to prevent petrol sniffing, because they did for outback Australia. It really is a uniquely fucked up place.
- lemmiwinks 3y ago
  1920's Prohibition was also quite supported by the local population, it was voted in... Anyhow OP's point is regarding the efficiency of prohibition, not about support.

TrackerFF 3y ago

So it seems like alcohol/substance abuse is a problem in places with a large indigenous population. From native Americans, to Inuits on Greenland, to Aboriginals - it seems to be a well-documented phenomenon. Lots of lingering trauma all around, which is probably compounded in the more rural areas. I remember when visiting Greenland a couple of years ago, the alcoholism was rampant there (along with racism, but that's another discussion), and apparently it was pretty common with smaller bans around surge periods (https://www.arctictoday.com/alcohol-is-banned-in-an-east-greenland-town-after-a-surge-of-violence/ https://www.arctictoday.com/alcohol-is-banned-in-an-east-gre...)

barbazoo 3y ago
Correlation is not necessarily causation. Important to consider socioeconomic factors. Those populations are also often the most vulnerable and disadvantaged.
aortailwjrt 3y ago
Alcoholism is a problem in many indigenous communities, because alcohol affects many indigenous people much more severely than it affects people descended from Europe and Asia. But substance abuse is a problem more generally in pretty much all poor communities around the world, and also in pretty much any very isolated community where people are flat out bored all the time. And many, perhaps most indigenous communities have been intentionally fenced into poverty and isolation.
dfxm12 3y ago
alcoholism was rampant there (along with racism, but that's another discussion) I don't think it is. Just from this article: “We’ve got to address poverty, inequality, unemployment, educational attainment, early childhood, trauma, the very things that we know make a big difference in terms of being able to live safely with alcohol but that will take time,” Racism is a (the?) reason indigenous peoples face these issues to begin with.
- netsharc 3y ago
  For the readers silently dismissing the idea of racism being the problem, read this[1] about George Floyd. In a different world he would've been the heir of a family who owned a tobacco farm, not someone who grew up poor and harassed by cops. But oh no, we can't mention "Critical Race Theory" lest some snowflakes get triggered... [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099585400/george-floyd-biography-book https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099585400/george-floyd-biogr...

_euqm 3y ago

At the risk of sounding unintentionally self congratulatory: Once sober for years, the largest external before and after observation was the difference in emotional lability between people who drink regularly and anyone else. I'm not talking about only when drinking, but rather at any time. One of the darkest lies that alcohol tells is that its effects are limited to when it is being consumed. Instead, consider how strong its effects are when one consumes it. The strength of that effect is related to the strength of the all-the-time effect on one's brain. We can't stimulate GABA to that degree, and whatever else it does, and not expect it to have effects on, say, anger and general emotional control in the interstitial periods between drinking. Regaining one's fine emotional control, after a long-time regular drinking habit, is also a process of years that are mined with danger like excessive anxiety. If years of drinking matches a person's profile, they might seek the help of a physician to help the long-term sobriety adjustment process. Even if one doesn't feel addicted.

voisin 3y ago
How long did it take you to see a noticeable change and how long / how much were you drinking (if you’re willing to share!).
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  Also curious. I drink, but pretty sparingly (a beer or two per month typically) and wonder where the threshold is, if there's a threshold at all (meaning any amount has these effects).
  - garciasn 3y ago
    Like with any intoxicant, volume affecting behavior depends entirely on each and every individual; full stop.
- _euqm 3y ago
  "Noticeable change" is open for discussion. Beginning of it: within six months to two years, ever increasing. A limitation reached on full re-adjustment (as much emotional control as I could get back): six harrowing years without medical assistance. Not harrowing because I craved alcohol, but due to unprecedented anxiety that came around year two or three. Drinking term: 8 binge years (late high school through the end of college). 10 casual every-other weekend years after that. Nothing really begins to change until stone sober. It's impossible to achieve it, in my experience, if deferring to other vices with the exception of caffeine. No tobacco, marijuana, etc. They will lead to felt cognitive imbalances that will unavoidably be translated into cravings. A good gauge is being able to go six months, or more, without drinking and not care / not miss it and feel the urge. Once you can do that, you're on your way. One has to gauge their true addiction level to understand if they can handle very occasional alcohol after that. If there's any craving whatsoever, I'd rate a person too addicted to partake in any and maintain control over the frequency. If there is zero craving (again, use the six months or longer gauge), then it may be possible for, say, quarterly (or less) yet controlled outings with a non-sober friend. In other words, a couple of drinks. Though, this doesn't apply to fall-down alcoholics. Even if they supposedly never feel the urge, they need to treat their sobriety like a precious jewel never to be messed with. It depends on what one's goal is. If it is addiction management, then don't even think about alcohol and stay on the program for life. If it is to regain emotional function, then it may be a little different. But the journey is still very long.

cjs_ac 3y ago

A fair few comments here, but none address the specific situation in Alice Springs. Alice Springs is the major settlement of the 'Red Centre' of Australia, and is home to many Indigenous Australians. Indigenous Australians were culturally and genetically separated from the rest of humanity for tens of thousands of years, and, in a hungry continent where no fruit laid on the ground long enough to ferment, never interacted with alcohol until European settlement. Indigenous Australian societies had extremely limited material cultures because their environment afforded them such scarce resources with which to create one. European colonisation and subsequent attempts to both 'civilise' and exterminate Indigenous Australians were utterly deleterious to their palaeolithic culture. They no longer needed to hunt and gather for sustenance, and yet those in remote communities found it difficult to find meaningful participation in the economy that now provided for them (often through outright discrimination). Combine this with the introduction of alcohol, which intoxicates Indigenous Australians more effectively due to a complete lack of any tolerance for it, as well as other intoxicating substances, and we have a recipe for autogenocide, nearly as effective than the previous attempts through the Stolen Generations. Petrol stations in outback Australia sell a particular blend of fuel known as 'Opal fuel'[0]: it contains less of the aromatic compounds that give the 'high' to petrol sniffers, which is also rife amongst Indigenous communities. Kava, a mild narcotic from the South Pacific island nations and popular amongst their diaspora in Australia, can only be imported into Australia in limited conditions (only for personal use, and only 2 kg per individual arrival) because it was mixed with red wine in Indigenous communities for an extra 'kick'. Policies for improving conditions for Indigenous Australians in remote communities vary from the ineffectual to the authoritarian. (The 'Intervention' mentioned in the article is an example of the latter.) Allowing communities to be locally regulated by their Elders is a compromise, and the basis of the programme described in the article. post script: The above is a description of the situation in remote, outback communities, and administrative centres for those communities, like the towns and cities of the Northern Territory, such as Alice Springs and Darwin. The obvious question, then, is why don't Indigenous Australians move to more prosperous towns and cities? There are two answers. One is the poor life outcomes for those who historically did move to those areas, for example, the slums of Redfern and Blacktown[1] in Sydney. The other comes from the traditional spirituality or Lore of Indigenous communities: they don't believe that they own the land, but rather that the land owns them. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) 1: The area gained that name for awful reason you think it got that name.

jiggywiggy 3y ago

When blaming alcohol i always think of the middle east with low alcohol intake has highest rates of domestic violence. Which would suggest at the minimum that culture is a bigger factor. And also I'm curious to see if it evens out after a year. It could be that men who are more violent by nature tend to drink more. And that in societies where it's not accepted alcohol breaks the social barrier whereas middle eastern countries it's more accepted so alcohol is not needed.

seydor 3y ago
alcohol consumption and addiction are different things and are genetic, and lead to different behaviors https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sh...

dontknowwhyihn 3y ago

I’ve been to Alice Springs. It’s basically a mall and a trailer park in the middle of the desert. If I lived there, I’d be an alcoholic too.

dadrian 3y ago

If there's one thing prohibition is known for, it's lack of crime! Wait...

simplicio 3y ago
This isn't really prohibition though, just restrictions on sales. The point isn't to make it impossible to get a drink, just make it more difficult, so that some margin of drinkers will be incentivized to do something else. As a result, while Im sure some small blackmarkets for booze will spring up, there isn't really the same incentive for violent, organized criminal gangs to spring up as was/is the case with US alcohol/drug prohibition.

LatteLazy 3y ago

The complex interplays between personal and social harms and responsibilities, secondary effects, and cultural matters make this subject rife for disagreement...

friend_and_foe 3y ago

And if we ban people from interacting with each other altogether, violence can go to 0! People have to be given the autonomy to live their own lives. People have to be trusted by default not to violate the rights of others, because what other choice do we have? We are all just here, no rhyme or reason for it. And then, if someone hurts other people, that person should be fiercely and very publicly punished.

totalconfusion 3y ago

Prohibition will lead to abuse of other drugs and empower local criminal elements. Inhalants, petrol, glue, nitrous oxide. Whatever is available. There are no opportunities in these places, people get fucked up to make life more bearable. If you've never seen a remote town in outback Australia before, the film Cunnamulla (2000) is a pretty accurate representation. Might be a little dated but not much has changed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMyzyZcCJo&pp=ygUKY3VubmFtdWxsYQ%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMyzyZcCJo&pp=ygUKY3VubmFtdWx... The health of these communities is at serious risk when you force them in to using unregulated black market narcotics and cleaning products to get high.

nobody9999 3y ago
>The health of these communities is at serious risk when you force them in to using unregulated black market narcotics and cleaning products to get high. In which case, all "drugs" should be legal, with safety/dosing standards and regulation. That removes the violence inherent in a black market and reduces negative health outcomes (overdoses, etc.). There are many other reasons (both economic and societal) for full legalization of all "drugs" as well.
- stOneskull 3y ago
  > all "drugs" should be legal, with safety/dosing standards and regulation. i don't think 1 or 2 beers per day would be better than none. i think everyone would get their 2 beers even if they don't drink. so they can give them to others or use them for currency.
  - totalconfusion 3y ago
    How I read safety/dosing would be standardized weight/volume/concentration of the drug and not the idea of prohibiting sales over a certain amount per person per day. Which as you say would just turn in to a secondary market.
    - nobody9999 3y ago

anyonecancode 3y ago

Prohibition in the US really did dramatically cut down on alcohol consumption. It also was a terrible policy with all kinds of negative effects. So I think the takeaway is that 1. Yes, reducing alcohol consumption does make sense as a public health goal and 2. strict prohibition is a terrible way to go at this.

joker_minmax 3y ago

In America at least, I feel that alcoholism is somehow seen as less serious than addictions to "hard drugs", especially during the time of Fentanyl being present in many other drugs. For us the most affected place is Alaska. It's dark half the year and there's nothing to do but drink: which results in it having one of the highest rates of VAWG, DV and child abuse in the country, if not the highest. Meanwhile the rest of the anglophone world has culturally mandated alcoholism. Domestic violence spikes in the UK based on football outcomes during the World Cup - is it any wonder that could be connected to alcohol? Advertising matters and health information matters. We have PSAs from the ad council against nicotine but we don't have any against liver damage. If you've got family members with cirrhosis, you know what you're up against.