27 ms·

The key is that, while there is suspicion (the people arrested have a far left ideology, have been to Syria to fight against the Islamic state, own weapons and

The key is that, while there is suspicion (the people arrested have a far left ideology, have been to Syria to fight against the Islamic state, own weapons and encrypt all of their communications), there is no crime nor proof of an intent to commit a crime. These people have been sent to prison because they are suspicious, not because of an action they have done (something made possible as a special case of an older antiterrorism law). And, amongst other things, using Signal and Linux with the encryption-on settings are explicitly listed as some of the things making them suspicious in the eyes of the law. That is a slippery slope.

908B64B197 3y ago
> That is a slippery slope. It's par for the course in a country that bans paternity testing (to "protect the 'unity' of families"! ) [0] [0] https://idtodna.com/paternity-test-in-france/ https://idtodna.com/paternity-test-in-france/
- theonlybutlet 3y ago
  Without the test you'd be none the wiser. Why the need to reduce your relationship to mere contractual obligations. If you raised the child its yours.
asddubs 3y ago
It's not really a slippery slope, we've already arrived at the bad thing
- tux3 3y ago
  Ah, but you see, there's plenty of slope left to slide!
  - nroets 3y ago
    Agreed! Next they will arrest anyone critical of the government and lock them up for using end to end encryption on WhatsApp.
- jona-f 3y ago
  yes, here is an article about "preventive detention of a climate activist" in Germany. https://newsrnd.com/news/2023-06-13-before-action-in-regensburg--climate-activist-%22dragged-out-of-the-house%22-and-taken-into-preventive-detention.B14gumWIwh.html https://newsrnd.com/news/2023-06-13-before-action-in-regensb... The issue here is that they seemed to have used the encrypted communications to proof criminal behavior.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    This is why we can not, under any circumstances, budge on encryption and privacy. It is a fundamental right and I am willing to die on this hill.
    - hughesjj 3y ago
      There's no freedom more fundamental than freedom of thought, but anti-encryption violates that imo. At least, it prevents the sharing or workshopping of thoughts. Yeah, I'd literally die on that hill. No one deserves to be subject to my raw, unrefined thoughts. It's hell enough for me
      - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
        It really is such a hill, I know it may sound absurd to some people, but invasion of privacy and communications is, by all means, thought policing, and living in such a world is, in my opinion, torture.
sofixa 3y ago
The law doesn't say being suspicious is criminal, but that organising with the intent to commit terrorism is, and that's what the prosecutor's will have to prove. The real, actual problem is the unlawful detention. > And, amongst other things, using Signal and Linux with the encryption-on settings are explicitly listed as some of the things making them suspicious in the eyes of the law. In combination with other things, and in this article there are quotes from interrogations which explicitly ask "have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications".
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Yeah, as much as saying 'using encrypted communications' is a very cheap shot by the prosecution, this seems to be the gist of it, the combination and the organization
- heywhatupboys 3y ago
  > The real, actual problem is the unlawful detention. how is this defined?
- Aeolun 3y ago
  > have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications If I did, why in hells name would I tell you? Why would you ask that in the first place? To catch out the incredibly dumb terrorists?
  - icefo 3y ago
    To put you in prison if they find by some mean you did. The mean could be a 5$ wrench, hacking into your devices or plain old surveillance
  - martin8412 3y ago
    If you lie, they can either put you in prison or deport you if you are not a citizen.
    - Aeolun 3y ago
derelicta 3y ago
It's understandable yet sad that actively fighting against reactionnary movements puts you on a watchlist. Freedom fighters being equated to terrorists once again...
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  I use linux, signal and ublock, I listen to political debates, and I'm seldom a freedom fighter. They are basically saying "if you close the door of the toilets when you poop, you are suspicious".
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Part of the snowden documents revealed that anyone who had ever visited the Tor web site, not even downloading the client, was on one of the NSAs "lists"
    - bauruine 3y ago
      This "list" thing sounds like FUD when you read articles with a titel like "U.S. Intelligence Has Amassed 'Sensitive and Intimate' Data on 'Nearly Everyone'" https://gizmodo.com/u-s-intelligence-admits-it-hoards-data-on-americans-1850533428 https://gizmodo.com/u-s-intelligence-admits-it-hoards-data-o...
- mantas 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    >That's a very subjective view. I don't think fighting for your civil rights is a 'very subjective view.' If you don't think people should have their civil rights, the questionable position isn't the activists'.
    - mantas 3y ago
ohgodplsno 3y ago
Slippery slope? No, no, we're already down the slope and going fast, we are now at "dissolve informal ecologist organizations and raid their homes and families with antiterrorist groups and gear for the crimes of blocking some construction", "get friendly with neonazi groups and let them parade in Paris, let them attack prides and leftist bars".
- getrealal 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - maeln 3y ago
    > There was no neonazi group parading in Paris; the GUD did their annual march to honour the memory of one of theirs killed by the police 20 years ago. So there was no neonazi group parading, but there was a neonazi group parading. > Comparatively, the far left is arrested for actual violent actions. There was none in this case. On the other hand, the far right is responsible for several assault in Bordeaux and Lyon, was prosecuted in Nantes for beating up nearly to death two far left teenager, murdered Féderico Martin Aramburu, burned the house of the Saint Brévin mayor, attacked and firebombed a LGBT center in Tour, ...
h0l0cube 3y ago
> the people arrested have a far left ideology, have been to Syria to fight against the Islamic state, own weapons and encrypt all of their communications Is there a place where we can read more about this? The article seems to explain none of that context, it only purports that people are suspicious and can be arrested for simply having good 'digital hygiene'. Edit: Some relevant passages from TFA > Likewise, the critical attitude towards technologies, and in particular to Big Tech (Google, Amazon, Facebook Apple and Microsoft, GAFAM), is considered as a sign of radicalisation. Among the questions asked to the defendants, one can read: Are you anti-GAFA?”, “What do you think of GAFA?” or “Do you feel a certain reserve towards communication technologies?”. > These questions are to be read in light of one report from the DGSI titled “The ultra-left movement”, which states that “members” of this movement are alledgedly showing “a great culture of secrecy […] and a certain reserve towards technology”. Don't see any mention of Syria or weapons.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > “members” of this movement are alledgedly showing “a great culture of secrecy […] and a certain reserve towards technology”. So caring about one's human right to privacy is a "culture of secrecy" now
  - swayvil 3y ago
    The desire to be alone has been scientifically proven to be a disease of the mind and a sure sign of antisocial tendencies. (s,lr,d)
    - alpaca128 3y ago
      I don't know how you jumped from "privacy" to "desire to be alone", those two things are barely related. Locking the toilet door isn't antisocial and talking to someone in private isn't either.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
conradfr 3y ago
Yesterday the French government dissolved an environmental movement (which I don't like btw), amongst the reasons stated[0] are that they leave their phones at home or switch them off, refuse to talk to the police when arrested, or even that they organize their protest over the internet. When accused of authoritarian tendencies the government usually answers "go to China or North Korea to see what a dictatorship is like". [0] https://twitter.com/mart1oeil/status/1671467485931921408 https://twitter.com/mart1oeil/status/1671467485931921408
- senttoschool 3y ago
  >When accused of authoritarian tendencies the government usually answers "go to China or North Korea to see what a dictatorship is like". China and North Korea exist on completely separate spectrums.
  - conradfr 3y ago
    I guess the day they only name North Korea we will know we're done.
    - bad_login 3y ago
      Ah ah like when we used to say : Russia, China and North Korea exist on completely separate spectrums.
    - pokepim 3y ago
      Honestly the west wanted for China to be more like us but in the end our power hungry politicians made us more like China. And we are on track to be even worse because there are some morons who are actually in favor of police state and “democratically” vote to be policed by the goverment and their cronies.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  I was thinking about an uber or courier service that takes your phone for a walk Pretty much relying on the assumption that investigators will find stationary phones suspicious when they spy on you Could put them in those charging lockboxes seen as airports and festivals, the infrastructure is already there Guess I’ll market it to climate activists in europe lol edit: maybe those delivery robots are even better couriers, since it fits the idea of getting a courier to come back to you better than an uber on the other side of town. risky but the fun kind.
psychphysic 3y ago
> That is a slippery slope. you mean as opposed to the people who went to Gitmo for wearing casio F-91W watchs back in the early 2000s[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F-91W https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F-91W https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seton_Hall_reports#Detainees'_profile https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seton_Hall_reports#Detainees...
- x-desire 3y ago
  Both situations are unacceptable, and one cannot be used to justify the other.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

908B64B197 3y ago

> That is a slippery slope. It's par for the course in a country that bans paternity testing (to "protect the 'unity' of families"! ) [0] [0] https://idtodna.com/paternity-test-in-france/ https://idtodna.com/paternity-test-in-france/

theonlybutlet 3y ago
Without the test you'd be none the wiser. Why the need to reduce your relationship to mere contractual obligations. If you raised the child its yours.

asddubs 3y ago

It's not really a slippery slope, we've already arrived at the bad thing

tux3 3y ago
Ah, but you see, there's plenty of slope left to slide!
- nroets 3y ago
  Agreed! Next they will arrest anyone critical of the government and lock them up for using end to end encryption on WhatsApp.
jona-f 3y ago
yes, here is an article about "preventive detention of a climate activist" in Germany. https://newsrnd.com/news/2023-06-13-before-action-in-regensburg--climate-activist-%22dragged-out-of-the-house%22-and-taken-into-preventive-detention.B14gumWIwh.html https://newsrnd.com/news/2023-06-13-before-action-in-regensb... The issue here is that they seemed to have used the encrypted communications to proof criminal behavior.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  This is why we can not, under any circumstances, budge on encryption and privacy. It is a fundamental right and I am willing to die on this hill.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    There's no freedom more fundamental than freedom of thought, but anti-encryption violates that imo. At least, it prevents the sharing or workshopping of thoughts. Yeah, I'd literally die on that hill. No one deserves to be subject to my raw, unrefined thoughts. It's hell enough for me
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      It really is such a hill, I know it may sound absurd to some people, but invasion of privacy and communications is, by all means, thought policing, and living in such a world is, in my opinion, torture.

sofixa 3y ago

The law doesn't say being suspicious is criminal, but that organising with the intent to commit terrorism is, and that's what the prosecutor's will have to prove. The real, actual problem is the unlawful detention. > And, amongst other things, using Signal and Linux with the encryption-on settings are explicitly listed as some of the things making them suspicious in the eyes of the law. In combination with other things, and in this article there are quotes from interrogations which explicitly ask "have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications".

raverbashing 3y ago
Yeah, as much as saying 'using encrypted communications' is a very cheap shot by the prosecution, this seems to be the gist of it, the combination and the organization
heywhatupboys 3y ago
> The real, actual problem is the unlawful detention. how is this defined?
Aeolun 3y ago
> have you organised illegal activities through encrypted chat communications If I did, why in hells name would I tell you? Why would you ask that in the first place? To catch out the incredibly dumb terrorists?
- icefo 3y ago
  To put you in prison if they find by some mean you did. The mean could be a 5$ wrench, hacking into your devices or plain old surveillance
- martin8412 3y ago
  If you lie, they can either put you in prison or deport you if you are not a citizen.
  - Aeolun 3y ago

derelicta 3y ago

It's understandable yet sad that actively fighting against reactionnary movements puts you on a watchlist. Freedom fighters being equated to terrorists once again...

BiteCode_dev 3y ago
I use linux, signal and ublock, I listen to political debates, and I'm seldom a freedom fighter. They are basically saying "if you close the door of the toilets when you poop, you are suspicious".
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Part of the snowden documents revealed that anyone who had ever visited the Tor web site, not even downloading the client, was on one of the NSAs "lists"
  - bauruine 3y ago
    This "list" thing sounds like FUD when you read articles with a titel like "U.S. Intelligence Has Amassed 'Sensitive and Intimate' Data on 'Nearly Everyone'" https://gizmodo.com/u-s-intelligence-admits-it-hoards-data-on-americans-1850533428 https://gizmodo.com/u-s-intelligence-admits-it-hoards-data-o...
mantas 3y ago
[flagged]
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  >That's a very subjective view. I don't think fighting for your civil rights is a 'very subjective view.' If you don't think people should have their civil rights, the questionable position isn't the activists'.
  - mantas 3y ago

ohgodplsno 3y ago

Slippery slope? No, no, we're already down the slope and going fast, we are now at "dissolve informal ecologist organizations and raid their homes and families with antiterrorist groups and gear for the crimes of blocking some construction", "get friendly with neonazi groups and let them parade in Paris, let them attack prides and leftist bars".

getrealal 3y ago
[flagged]
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  [flagged]
- maeln 3y ago
  > There was no neonazi group parading in Paris; the GUD did their annual march to honour the memory of one of theirs killed by the police 20 years ago. So there was no neonazi group parading, but there was a neonazi group parading. > Comparatively, the far left is arrested for actual violent actions. There was none in this case. On the other hand, the far right is responsible for several assault in Bordeaux and Lyon, was prosecuted in Nantes for beating up nearly to death two far left teenager, murdered Féderico Martin Aramburu, burned the house of the Saint Brévin mayor, attacked and firebombed a LGBT center in Tour, ...

h0l0cube 3y ago

> the people arrested have a far left ideology, have been to Syria to fight against the Islamic state, own weapons and encrypt all of their communications Is there a place where we can read more about this? The article seems to explain none of that context, it only purports that people are suspicious and can be arrested for simply having good 'digital hygiene'. Edit: Some relevant passages from TFA > Likewise, the critical attitude towards technologies, and in particular to Big Tech (Google, Amazon, Facebook Apple and Microsoft, GAFAM), is considered as a sign of radicalisation. Among the questions asked to the defendants, one can read: Are you anti-GAFA?”, “What do you think of GAFA?” or “Do you feel a certain reserve towards communication technologies?”. > These questions are to be read in light of one report from the DGSI titled “The ultra-left movement”, which states that “members” of this movement are alledgedly showing “a great culture of secrecy […] and a certain reserve towards technology”. Don't see any mention of Syria or weapons.

alpaca128 3y ago
> “members” of this movement are alledgedly showing “a great culture of secrecy […] and a certain reserve towards technology”. So caring about one's human right to privacy is a "culture of secrecy" now
- swayvil 3y ago
  The desire to be alone has been scientifically proven to be a disease of the mind and a sure sign of antisocial tendencies. (s,lr,d)
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    I don't know how you jumped from "privacy" to "desire to be alone", those two things are barely related. Locking the toilet door isn't antisocial and talking to someone in private isn't either.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

conradfr 3y ago

Yesterday the French government dissolved an environmental movement (which I don't like btw), amongst the reasons stated[0] are that they leave their phones at home or switch them off, refuse to talk to the police when arrested, or even that they organize their protest over the internet. When accused of authoritarian tendencies the government usually answers "go to China or North Korea to see what a dictatorship is like". [0] https://twitter.com/mart1oeil/status/1671467485931921408 https://twitter.com/mart1oeil/status/1671467485931921408

senttoschool 3y ago
>When accused of authoritarian tendencies the government usually answers "go to China or North Korea to see what a dictatorship is like". China and North Korea exist on completely separate spectrums.
- conradfr 3y ago
  I guess the day they only name North Korea we will know we're done.
  - bad_login 3y ago
    Ah ah like when we used to say : Russia, China and North Korea exist on completely separate spectrums.
  - pokepim 3y ago
    Honestly the west wanted for China to be more like us but in the end our power hungry politicians made us more like China. And we are on track to be even worse because there are some morons who are actually in favor of police state and “democratically” vote to be policed by the goverment and their cronies.
yieldcrv 3y ago
I was thinking about an uber or courier service that takes your phone for a walk Pretty much relying on the assumption that investigators will find stationary phones suspicious when they spy on you Could put them in those charging lockboxes seen as airports and festivals, the infrastructure is already there Guess I’ll market it to climate activists in europe lol edit: maybe those delivery robots are even better couriers, since it fits the idea of getting a courier to come back to you better than an uber on the other side of town. risky but the fun kind.

psychphysic 3y ago

> That is a slippery slope. you mean as opposed to the people who went to Gitmo for wearing casio F-91W watchs back in the early 2000s[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F-91W https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F-91W https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seton_Hall_reports#Detainees'_profile https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seton_Hall_reports#Detainees...

x-desire 3y ago
Both situations are unacceptable, and one cannot be used to justify the other.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]