26 ms·

Loneliness is stronger when not alone

494 points by hirundo 3y ago

eewls 3y ago
There's no better proof for the conclusion in the paper than the comments to this post. Your Cool Aid tornado feels like a lonely folks re-education camp already.
ChuckNorris89 3y ago
Of course, if you go to some event and you're the only one, or one of the few without a partner or a group of friends, it's gonna feel shit. It's why so many people don't want to go to the movies or to the restaurant alone. If you go to the park and see many happy couples on benches kissing and you've been single and alone for a while, it's gonna be soul crushing. On the other hand if you go to an event where everyone goes alone or doesn't know anyone, you don't feel bad at all.
- avocadoburger 3y ago
  hey, movies alone are pretty cool, and I like to think of myself as a sociable person
- drewcon 3y ago
  I absolutely love going to the movies alone. One of life’s great gifts.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  I loved going to the movies alone. Pre-Covid, that is. Haven't been to a movie theater since. For some reason, that never felt weird to me. Unless it's a super hero movie or something similar, that kind of movie is more fun with friends.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    it depends on the motivation for going to movies. i like watching movies alone, because i don't want to be disturbed when focusing on the story. if i were someone who really enjoyed the big screen, i'd happily go to a movie theater by myself too. as it is, i don't care about big screens and high resolution as much, so my tv or computer screen at home is enough. that leaves going to movies for social events, which i actually don't like as much as it invariably leads to more disruptions.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Yeah. The best example is going to a party/bar/club alone, while most other attendees are there with their friends. Being there alone can feel incredibly awful, except if you are a high extraversion type who can make new friends quickly.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  I love doing both things on my own. I also deeply enjoy doing them with friends. Both things are fine. Both can be great experiences.
- robga 3y ago
  I love going to the movies alone or a restaurant alone. Sometimes when I have half a day without family around these are exactly the activities that I choose to undertake. It’s not rare.
- foxtrotwhiskey9 3y ago
  I was terribly shy very depressed for most of my life since childhood. I've come a long way since then but I started going to EDM shows alone in my home city in my mid-30s recently and damn has it shifted my perspective on going out alone, talking to strangers. I've made so many new diverse friends and it's really helped my own struggles with loneliness. It has been overall been positively transformative to me.
- SirMaster 3y ago
  Couldn't disagree more with this. I've been alone my whole life and wouldn't want it any other way. I go to the movies alone, go out to eat alone. Who cares? Certainly not me. I do what I want when I want and it's fantastic. I couldn't care less that other people around me are "together". I've never had any desire for that.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    You don't want social connections which is fine, but most people do want them.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  I was listening to The Big Picture podcast, of which the podcasters watch way more movies in the theatre than I ever could. They seem like raging extroverts, but I guess a lot of podcasters are. One of them poked fun at men watching a movie alone in the afternoon not being dating material. The host (mostly?) was joking as he was watching the latest Transformers movie alone. It’s not just feeling alone in a crowd in that situation—-people fear being judged as well, like being forever stamped with “not dating material” on your forehead regardless of it being true or not. It kind of bothered me that he focused on that as it just adds to the social stigma.
- BizarreByte 3y ago
  I see a lot of people disagreeing with you, but HN is heavily biased towards a certain type of person, so it's not surprising. Most people don't want to do those things alone, I couldn't even imagine going out and eating alone. Going out alone where everyone else is together feels terrible. It's part of why I despise work parties at Christmas, because in that case feeling terrible is mandatory.
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
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ryanwaggoner 3y ago
”I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams
- FBISurveillance 3y ago
  I miss Robin Williams, it's terrifying that someone who looks like a happy and fulfilled person may end up... not being one day, out of the blue.
  - arolihas 3y ago
    He did have Lewy-body dementia so it's not like he had a sudden lack of fulfillment out of the blue. Still terrifying, though.
IAmNotAFix 3y ago
"It is better to be alone than in bad company."
- aubanel 3y ago
  And yet poet Paul Valéry said "A lonely man is always in bad company". I'd love to understand what he precisely meant by that though.
- sourcecodeplz 3y ago
  I'd rather have shitty friends than no friends really, because shitty people are not shitty all the time.
asylteltine 3y ago
The ONLY times I feel lonely are when I’m with people. I love being alone. People need to chill out and appreciate being alone more. God I’m so happy I’m not an extrovert it must be awful. My extroverted friend was so bad during Covid sometimes he would go to business just to be able to talk to someone.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  I concur, and I'm like you, but I also think we're edge cases. I believe most people are like your friend, which is why these studies of the gen pop usually turn out the way they do.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    The edge is long and wide. I'm also like that.
- SirMaster 3y ago
  Yeah, I am mostly always alone and I love it. I have never felt any reason to have it any other way. I already read that humans are "supposed" to be social, but then why am I happiest alone. I don't worry about it and I just live the way I like to live and it's worked out great.
- soco 3y ago
  I'm extroverted but generally don't like people. So I could interact all fine and leave a good impression, it's just I prefer not to and mind my own business instead of listening politely to ramble. So there's no general solution to this.
  - 93po 3y ago
    It seems the solution would be to find people you like. If you struggle to find people you like then the solution seems it could be to figure out what you like about yourself.
- manicennui 3y ago
danybittel 3y ago
I believe "Loneliness" is a misnomer. The misery people feel when they are "alone" is not the lack of other people but the lack of connection. More precisely the disconnect with nature, oneself and to a lesser extend the community. A psychologist who studied loneliness said that the best remedy is time spend in the forest. If lonely people go and force themself to get around other people, they usually drag everybody down.
- wenc 3y ago
  Would be interesting to see this study. I personally feel more lonely in nature, especially in forests. I need the energy of big cities to feel a warm glow. I suspect I’m not the only one and there’s a large percentage of the population who are similar to me. When I used to live in small towns, I would have a strong need to periodically visit a big city to restore my emotions. I love the feeling of being in a crowd even if I never talk to anyone. I love the bustle and noise and potential for new encounters. Nature feels isolating to me. I wonder if I’m wired this way because I grew up in a big city. We’re wired to look for places where we can feel we’re “at home”, and that’s usually a function of childhood experiences.
  - kentiko 3y ago
    I think I am same as you. I recently noticed that listening to birds singing make me feel incredibly melancholic. I was very lonely for a few years. I was listening to the singing a lot when I was at my place, and now I have associated birds singing and loneliness. It is unfortunate that something so calming and beautiful now makes me feel sad. It has become the sound of loneliness to me.
  - dotxlem 3y ago
    I agree that it might be due to where we grow up ... I grew up in a forest on an island with few people living within walking distance. But I've been living in a small city for about 14 years, and more and more I long to go back to living somewhere were there aren't all these people around. Or more importantly, to somewhere so much more _quiet_.
  - supriyo-biswas 3y ago
throw0101c 3y ago
The Harvard Study, which has been following individuals for their entire lives for decades, and has even started following some of their descendants, has found that connections are strongly correlated with happiness, health, and general life satisfaction: > What makes a life fulfilling and meaningful? The simple but surprising answer is: relationships. The stronger our relationships, the more likely we are to live happy, satisfying, and healthier lives. In fact, the Harvard Study of Adult Development reveals that the strength of our connections with others can predict the health of both our bodies and our brains as we go through life. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61272271-the-good-life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61272271-the-good-life
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  Yeah, people feel less lonely when they’re around people who they like and who like them. “People feel more lonely when they’re around other people” is the type of stuff you could only find on the internet or in academia, you can logic yourself into it but it’s so far beyond common sense it’s insane
  - jprete 3y ago
    Anecdotally, I disagree. I definitely feel more lonely when I’m in large groups and feel disconnected. If I’m alone, I’m not lonely unless I’m thinking about those large groups and my absence of connection - and I can even feel lonely if my connections just aren’t available at a given moment.
  - gryn 3y ago
    well I guess it's the kind of thing you have to experience to believe. from my personal experience, being with the wrong crowd can definitely make you more lonely than being alone doing your own thing.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    > “People feel more lonely when they’re around other people” Oh it’s entirely easy to be super lonely when surrounded by other people. The easiest way to achieve this that I’ve found is being a +1 at a wedding. You’re surrounded with people you’ve never met who all know each other pretty well and have tight bonds. Makes you feel super isolated and alone in a way that just isn’t noticeable in an empty room.
mustafa_pasi 3y ago
This might be weird, but I only feel lonely when I try to improve my social life (and inevitably fail). When I sort of give up and fall back to my usual routine, I do not mind being alone. I am sort of so far away from all of THAT, that I do not even have the desire for human connection.
- em-bee 3y ago
  makes total sense to me. if i were content to be alone, i'd not bother trying to connect. what stops me from being content is that i fear i might not be content forever, and also that i being alone is not how i want to live, even if i were to find a way to be happy with it because i believe the future of our society depends on building community and connections.
- stef25 3y ago
  How long has that been going on for? If it goes on for many years you might find yourself very alone during times you really don't want to be. Made that mistake myself and wish I had not.
revskill 3y ago
Loneliness is when you got downvoted on HN (it simply means noone agrees with you). But it's better than noone votes on you, it's real loneliness.
- pawelduda 3y ago
  imagine being shadowbanned
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Recently I got slapped for some inflamatory comments. Now I can't post too much in any give span of time. It really bums me out and interferes with my use of the site. I think it's few months already. Does anyone know if this rate-limiting is temporary measure or if I need to abandon decade old account if I want to have the full functionality back?
    - therealcamino 3y ago
      Ask dang, probably.
  - rjbwork 3y ago
    Turning on showdead is a real trip. There's a few people who have been posting on this forum for years, often about the same pet cause in nearly every post.
    - s5300 3y ago
      [dead]
wenc 3y ago
Before we go in circles, one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. There are two variables, both adjustable. Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine. But being in a situation that reminds you of your lack sometimes creates that desire, which creates that delta. Likewise, if you’re an extrovert, you desire lots of social connection and when it falls below what you actually have you feel sad. We can’t always control the amount of social connection we get due to circumstances, but we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  This is a great way to look at introversion/extroversion.
- noisy_boy 3y ago
  > Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. And when the delta becomes negative, loneliness turns into tiredness. E.g. when an introvert doesn't desire social connection and has too much.
- 93po 3y ago
  I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the capability to form healthy, fulfilling relationships with other humans and therefore don't have much (if any) past history of feeling fulfilled by social interaction. If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    >If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.
ThrowMeABC 3y ago
Absolutely agree. When I am at home working alone under a crushing deadline for days, I feel lonely, but that's somewhat tolerable, since I accomplish something. On the other hand I love dancing, but when I go to clubs alone, I am miserable for days seeing all groups enjoying themselves while I nurture my drink, watching the other dancers. It has gotten so bad that I rarely go to any social events anymore.
ConfusedDog 3y ago
I believe so. I was the loneliest after I got married when my now "ex" was really demanding and paranoid. People are most lonely when get excluded from their peers from school or work or social any groups. Old people are lonely because their friends and families are keep dying off or unable to social any longer. That's the reason I recommend joining some good social or religious organizations and make friends across all walks of life and ages, keep an open mind and enjoy life. Do not engage with toxic people, only keep good companies. Don't engage with people who don't want to engage, or thinking you can help them. People need to walk out of their own rut to be truly happy.
- swayvil 3y ago
  Thank you. Your advice is stunningly relevant.
- jimmygrapes 3y ago
  Amen. An addendum, if I may: when considering "toxic" please be wary of all-or-nothing cognitive fallacies. People who have one trait or belief or habit that you disagree with (even if strongly) do not necessarily come saddled with other things you might presume (ie just because they're catholic doesn't mean they're a pedo, just because they have tattoos doesn't mean they're a criminal, just because they have guns doesn't make them a white supremacist, etc.). People are complex, and you might be missing your best friend for life if you are prejudicial.
  - copperx 3y ago
    That's the problem with the weak popular vocabulary. 'Toxic' can mean just about anything.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      well what matters is, what it means to you. if a person makes you uncomfortable then it's probably better to stay away from them. only if you can't do that, then it may be worth it to reevaluate why it is they make you uncomfortable and see if you can change that.
Iridescent_ 3y ago
Being alone when there is no one else is just normal. Being alone in the middle of everyone else is what loneliness is.
scotty79 3y ago
I wonder if it relates to depression and suicidality. Often people who died from that seemed pretty social. Maybe they were suffering excessively from loneliness in other people's company, with a smile on their faces and would be better off if they were left alone for a prolonged while instead?
- kathlam 3y ago
  Sometimes the 'cheeriest' people are the most depressed. I think Robin Williams is a prime example.
- skim_milk 3y ago
  A significant portion of people committing suicides (no one knows how much %) are likely to be clinical or subclinical Borderlines. This population isn't shy because they critically rely on others in order to regulate their emotions for them.
raydiatian 3y ago
Everybody should go hike for a month and be alone in nature. It shook out of me any notion that loneliness is a bad thing.
- jobs_throwaway 3y ago
  How did you feel during/afterwards? Did it make you change any behaviors permanently?
  - raydiatian 3y ago
    Good for young people graduating college or with 1yr of work under their belt. Quit your job, buy gear, disappear. Go ultra light. Essentially become homeless. Own at most two pairs of clothing. Don’t worry about showering daily (or weekly), but keep your face clean and your teeth brushed. Don’t let the gear&food on your back exceed 35lbs (15kg). Sleep under the stars when it isn’t raining. How I felt during: pretty rad. there’s this surreal thing that happens when you spend all day in direct contact with the sun and the moon. You feel physically connected to the solar system. You sense the Sun behind the earth at night. You get a real emotional connection with the environment and that has made climate change a bit more personal for me. In general, I’d never felt as much joy as I felt then. There’s this other surreal thing that happens. If you quit your job to go hike, you start seeing the weeks in front of you as bare and free, and the present becomes one long continuous moment. I also spent a lot of my spare time reading old classical Greek and American philosophy. Seneca, Plato, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Ayn Rand, Thoreau, Emerson. It plugged me into the “meta-game” aspect of life, of course we’re all living but how could we live. Takeaways: society is full of strings, things you don’t actually need to survive. time is better spent learning or exploring. it’s okay to abandon people that you feel you’ve outgrown. People my age (mid 30s) talk about how stressed they are and I can honestly say my attitude was permanently changed by that trip. I suppose Im a happy nihilist. Nothing matters, but that’s not a bad thing. I’m not hitting all of my goals, but my understanding of what reality is has been fundamentally altered where I know it’s not all about me, so losing is actually not a problem. It’s a lesson for me in the present, and my loss might become somebody else’s gain.
codeangler 3y ago
If the _feeling_ of loneliness starts with a sensory/somatic experience then to know it means it is interpreted. If it is interpreted then it went through a filter of values and beliefs. And all of this is contextual to environmental cues In other words if we could stimulate the same somatic experience in people then some may find relief and others distress and others may not notice it amounts the billions of sensory input in any given moment. Want to feel (dis)connected. Change the somatic experience? Change the environment/context? Change the interpretation? My mantra for a while “I am a tree in woods” ( reminded that I’m part of a connected system) “I am a tree in a field” ( I’m unattached )
some_random 3y ago
At college there was program where student volunteers would hang around high traffic areas and "cheer people up" by shouting at passersby to tell them they're loved or whatever. Obviously, this only makes actually depressed and lonely students feel worse. It's exactly the kind of thing that someone who'd never felt depressed in their life would come up with, and when I mentioned this to some of the people involved in the program they were absolutely flabbergasted.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > when I mentioned this to some of the people involved in the program they were absolutely flabbergasted. I think that a lot of people have a difficult time understanding that good intentions can lead to bad outcomes.
  - stockboss 3y ago
    that's why there's the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    And an even more difficult time accepting that people will hate them for it regardless of their intentions. After all it's all to easy to lie about having good intentions, even to yourself. We're evolutionarily hard wired to do what's best for ourselves, which often includes being altruistic to gain more social acceptance. That's why being "lonely" is a problem at all, we feel emotional pain to get us to work with the group, since that's what's always meant longer survival.
  - jimkleiber 3y ago
    And how hard it is to convince other people to believe in our good intentions.
  - munificent 3y ago
    I think almost everyone understands that good intentions can lead to bad outcomes. But, also, everyone understands that good intentions can lead to good outcomes. Determining which is which is a very hard problem. One strategy might be, "Don't do anything unless I'm absolutely certain it will lead to a good outcome." If you do that, you'll miss out on many opportunities that would have good outcomes but who's certainty isn't up to your standards. So while the intention behind pointing out that good intentions can have bad outcomes is good, the outcome is bad.
trizoza 3y ago
If you want to feel real loneliness, go alone to a fair or a Christmas markets.
bladecd 3y ago
"I am alone. I'm not lonely"
sornaensis 3y ago
The worst feeling in the world is being a bit lonely, and then being by yourself in a place where you are surrounded by groups of people. I got more depressed more often trying to go do social things in uni than I ever did physically being separated from others and actually by myself.
- damascus 3y ago
  It was this type of setting that showed me the huge difference between being lonely and being alone. I'm rarely lonely when I'm alone. Thankfully I have long since engaged in social activities and have a great social life now, but even still that feeling is just below the surface. I went to the club with two girls the other night and when they both went to the bathroom together I was by myself in a club and even though I knew it was just for a few moments that old feeling was right there again. We are indeed social creatures.
- Hnaomyiph 3y ago
  Yeah, I’ve noticed this recently. As I spend more time with my current friend group in the new city I live in, the worse I feel because it seems like we’re just surface level friends, whereas when I spend time with my friends back home it greatly lifts my spirits because it’s a genuine connection. It’s a an extremely odd feeling because from the outside I’m sure it looks like I have a great social life and good friends, but I’ve never felt more alone in my life. And I’m not sure how to address this conundrum, on one hand I want a stronger friendship with this new group of friends and don’t want to be alone, but at the same time it seems as if I would be happier if I disconnected myself from the group and was actually alone.
Isamu 3y ago
This is especially true if you find it hard to start conversations and connections. I would feel very lonely in a large unfamiliar group at university. But go walk through the woods and the loneliness is gone.
photochemsyn 3y ago
A lot of these studies may be culturally specific, in that the focus is on the fulfillment of the individual, i.e. the thinking is 'what's best for me' rather than 'what's best for the group'. Consider that if you're feeling depressed and lonely and otherwise miserable, and seek out the company of others to alleviate your own negative emotional state, then you're essentially treating other people like a drug you take to improve your mood. Others will tend to see you as needy, demanding, a downer, etc. The solution is to first figure out how to be happy on your own, to improve your mental and emotional state, such that other people find your company pleasant and agreeable - then they'll actually want to share your company. It's a bit like physical hygiene - if you smell bad, people will keep their distance. Mental hygiene is the same concept. Unfortunately, consumer society is based on exploiting people's negative emotional states to improve sales - go shopping to alleviate loneliness, buy a bottle of pills to improve your mood, etc. It's not a very healthy system, and it's not surprising many people are so alienated.
nonlincoder 3y ago
Loneliness Got a mind of its own The more people around The more you feel alone --Bob Dylan, Marchin' to the city
pickingdinner 3y ago
Loneliness has nothing to do with alone-ness. Most of us are perfectly happy alone, being left alone, and may even prefer it. Similarly, depression has nothing to do with alone-ness. It's being perfectly sad. Depression is the only cause of perfect sadness, and sadness is never the cause of depression. Healing depression cannot be done by healing sadness. Your triggers and the cause of your condition could be many things, but until you figure those things out, nothing will undo your depression or sadness.
deleted 3y ago
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pradn 3y ago
For years and years of my life, I had enough friends to do stuff with, but with whom I couldn't really talk about things I cared about. I didn't realize what that did to me until way later, when I finally did find a few of sort of friends I was looking for. I'm trying to say that in-depth topical interests / ways of looking at life need to match as well - not just having someone to grab dinner with.
spicyramen_ 3y ago
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bevan 3y ago
Since quitting caffeine and alcohol, I rarely get lonely. In fact, quitting those drugs seems to have helped reduce the time I spend in any negative emotion. I still have acute bouts of [whatever negative emotion here], but I rarely get mired in them. This seems to have less to do with any change in my living situation since the switch (I often hermit away, as I did before) and more to do with being in a more resourceful state more often (which neither drug helped with). I suspect that alcohol and caffeine-induced negative emotion is widespread. Even a glass or two of alcohol can affect your sleep, and less REM sleep means less emotional regulation. I know basically everyone's on caffeine, but ingesting that can accentuate the peaks and valleys of one's emotional experience. The alcohol and caffeine-induced troughs may be sub-clinical, but they're probably real for a lot of people.
- deleted 3y ago
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- survirtual 3y ago
  Okay. What works for you doesn't work for everyone. My baseline "sober" -- no caffeine, no anything -- is crippling, paralyzing depression. Hiking is my drug of choice, but I need to be hiking all day, nearly every day, for months for it to take action, and that is not compatible with existing in society. Without hiking, and without any other support, then I revert to existing as a pool of dark sludge on a bed all day. I spent years this way before I decided to set aside my pride and accept that having a little help -- caffeine at a minimum -- to be functional is better for my health than any perceived ideas around addiction or "purity". Coffee / caffeine can take me from a non-functional, paralyzing mental disability to being able to move around and have momentum. And yes, there are circumstances that can change where this wouldn't happen and I wouldn't need a support like that: a world-wide revolution resulting in the liberation of all mankind from the dystopian hellscape we are in / plunging ourselves further into would do it. Short of that, I'll stick with a couple cups of coffee a day, thanks.
  - bevan 3y ago
    Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. I relate to this because I've dealt with depression too, which I also medicated in various ways. Other than quitting the two aforementioned drugs, what helped a lot for me was living in a more evolutionarily consistent way. Especially around nutrition, sunlight, and sleep. I made this the focus of my life for about a year because the alternative was, well, you know about that. Good luck.
nativecoinc 3y ago
This is pretty obvious from my experience. I don’t really get “lonely” but I can be miserable when out among people. But by myself I might just be bored. But only some times. You know how “humans are social creatures”? A sort of corollary to that is that people define what a normal person is. And very subtle-like too. No one needs to spell it out one-on-one. But it’s always there. A constant reminder of how you might not conform, might not be good enough, might not have the right connections, might have the wrong interests. And once you check enough of those anti-boxes you realize that neither you nor other people have anything to offer each other. You are a bore, and they are there just to remind you of your failures. That one can be lonely or feel bad in a crowd of people might be counter-intuitive to many because the narrative goes that loneliness is a disease that inflicts the individual and is only about a lack of people. But isn’t that hypocritical? How can you say that “humans are social creatures” and just outright deny all the negative signals that people (us) send to each other all the time?
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > And once you check enough of those anti-boxes you realize that neither you nor other people have anything to offer each other. You are a bore, and they are there just to remind you of your failures. Emotions aren't the truth. This is just a particular psychological hangup. https://old.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/o7huc5/russ_hudson_on_the_instincts_subtypes/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/o7huc5/russ_huds... > When SX is our blind spot, the self attack is along the lines of "I am hopelessly boring. I can't imagine anyone taking much interest in me, & if they do I suspect there is something wrong with them. Thank God I can be useful because few would be interested in me otherwise.
  - nativecoinc 3y ago
    I don’t know what the Enneagram is. Some things aren’t just taken out of thin air. Part of being a “social creature” is that you pick up on what other people think of you by observing how they talk about other people that you have something in common with. And that doesn’t have to be something wishy-washy like “being boring”; it could be very concrete, objective things, like being X or having Y. Then you go, huh, that’s me as well. And then you listen to them say that oh, people who are X, Y, and Z are A and B. And that’s you as well. But no (someone says), they’re wrong: it’s just their opinion. It’s entirely subjective and partial. ... But don’t you see? That’s what being a social creature is—being at the whims of the opinion of others. How can you possibly claim that Humans Are Social Creatures, and then blame the person who is affected by What Others Think of Them?
silverpepsi 3y ago
I'm at a loss for how to explain the polar opposite results of two situations I've been in. I worked 3 year in an office in two different countries where the prevailing mode was absolutely silence, no socialization, no connection, no words beyond pleasantries about nonwork things. One office spoke my native language, one didn't. Those were both really dark depressing experiences. I often felt distressed by loneliness, of being a ghost haunting the human world. Currently I'm doing the nomad thing, don't speak the language for crap, and spend 3-10 hours a day in coffee shops working. I order at the kiosk so no human interaction. I people watch and feel fantastic. I have been here 6 months and haven't interacted with anyone during this time. Best guess: In the offices I feel like I had a strong expectation for my life to play out like an American office sitcom. I have no such expectation for random people in a coffee shop to ever speak with me. I think expectations alone determine the result, even for someone 9/10 on the psychologists neuroticism scales. If I hadn't experienced this first hand with years of personal evidence behind it to show, I wouldn't believe it could "all be in my head". But that's the only theory that works
- fluoridation 3y ago
  For any given thing we desire to have, we have a set amount that we would like to have each day (or per amount of time) to feel satisfied. Total abstinence of a thing is easier than consumption restricted to below that set amount. When you're in total abstinence, you can forget that the thing even exists. It ceases to occupy your mind, so you don't feel like there's a want going unfulfilled. When instead you have just a little bit, far too little to satisfy you, the difference between the amount you're getting and how much you'd like causes intense anxiety that you have to deal with somehow.
ergonaught 3y ago
o/` I feel so alone in a room full of people. I'm loneliest when I'm out in a crowd. o/` https://genius.com/Suicidal-tendencies-alone-lyrics https://genius.com/Suicidal-tendencies-alone-lyrics
samgilb 3y ago
"I have seen others enjoying while I stood alone with myself...a mere dead mirror on which things reflect themselves" - W.B.Yeats
m3kw9 3y ago
The difference is only much more apparent, like if you live with n a box next to a mansion instead of a whole city of boxes, you see the huge difference. It’s like how advertising works to make you want things
anigbrowl 3y ago
No duh, any depressed person living in a city or sharing a home could tell you this. To be sure, many ignorant people refuse to listen to the voices of the depressed, but they're likely to refuse to listen to the NIH as well. Willfully ignorant people don't want to be informed, as they find life more enjoyable when they can pick and choose their facts.
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
During the pandemic I moved out to the middle of nowhere in NY State. I am surrounded by nature, wildlife, and my neighbors are barely within shouting distance. I rarely ever see friends, go to coffee shops, restaurants, clubs, movies, shopping, etc. And I have never been so not-lonely. My time is filled with activities and projects so I barely have enough time to just sit with a cup of coffee. When I do, I have a whole backyard full of flora and fauna to look at and listen to, like one of those YouTube channels streaming nature sounds. Country folk have the right idea living out here. You don't miss what you don't see.
gauddasa 3y ago
It's bad idea to generalize it. Just surround yourself with children, old people and pets and experience loneliness vanish into thin air. It really depends on type of crowd around you.
steve918 3y ago
For me it's more about lack of connection. My loneliest times are when I'm at home with my family, but we're just occupying the same space. If I actually make an effort to connect by sharing what's going on in my life or talking about the future then it's a lot more positive.
javajosh 3y ago
This is misleading. All problems are easier to bear when you are connected to people dealing with the same problem. Conversely, all problems are harder to bear when you must deal with it alone, particularly when you feel you MUST deal with it alone. The implication is that if you feel lonely you should not seek out others, but rather others who feel lonely. They will understand you, and you them, and you can talk or sit or simply know that you exist, in far larger numbers than you'd expect, and find great comfort in the thought.
browningstreet 3y ago
From the article: > These findings suggest that simply spending time with others (vs. alone) is not associated with a reduced burden of loneliness and may even backfire. As a member ranking pretty low on the socialization needs scale, I would suggest that the regular barrage of "you need a social life / people in your life at the end of your life" media isn't actually balanced with "learn how to be happy by yourself, and with yourself" counterparts. But I will concede this: I'm pretty happy being by myself most of the time. I miss my son when he's gone but I look forward to using my solo time fruitfully (if even that means vegging on the couch binging something). But what can feel distressing, and loneliness inducing, for me is when I get the urge to be social and can't drum it up. It sometimes feels like the urge to be gregarious arrives inversely proportional to its opportunities... the few people in your life just aren't available, and sometimes you visit a coffee shop or a grocery store and no one will make eye contact with you, and sometimes you try and run a few quick errands in peace and everyone seems out to chat with you. I've learned to experience each with grace, but neither flow really changes what I usually need, and how much of it.
- namtab00 3y ago
  I think you just described the proverbial "human condition"
gbolcer 3y ago
I skimmed through the paper and the comments, but my real question is: is online social networking considered a crowd and does it have the same effects?
notShabu 3y ago
IMO most of what is "connectedness" or "anti-loneliness" is an illusion. Like those movie scenes where two actors mirror each other's movements to create the illusion of a mirror. That is, connectedness requires an external structure to synchronize everyone's rhythm. This can be a sports team, a religion, a shared love the same anime or breed of dog, etc... Loneliness feels more pronounced when in the presence of these illusions. It's not easily solved because from the pov of the lonely person, he/she is asked to believe the equivalent of "2+2=5" in exchange for that kind of connection. It feels like an ask to self-lobotomize. (even if from the pov of say a therapist, the client is actually just in a different kind of illusion) * "illusion" can have negative valence so an alternative here is "story" or "pillar of meaning"
laiwjrtlai 3y ago
Robin Williams (might have) said: "The worst thing isn't being alone. The worst thing is being surrounded by people who make you feel alone."
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
For as much as HN hates on Psychology as a field of study, it is Psychology stories that get the most comments, the most discussion, the most interest. It might be because people like talking about themselves more than anything else. How can one day, the HN consensus seems to be that Psychology is a pseudo-science filled with con-men. Then the next day there is a new Psychology study submitted, and suddenly HN totally forgets its pseudo-science, now it is 'oh, let me talk about my experience with X'.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  This entire site is full of Certified Experts (TM) who absolutely must have their opinion heard. (In other words, like every other site on the internet, and gnashing its teeth at the reality of that statement with a lot of "I'm not like other girls" energy.)
throwaway886622 3y ago
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9919037-loneliness-is-not-cured-by-human-company-loneliness-is-cured https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9919037-loneliness-is-not-c...
tsss 3y ago
Good to hear that we have found yet another reason to move attention away from lonely men who haven't had a friend for 20 years to those that really need it: popular people who are sad about not being allowed to go party for two weeks during covid lockdown.
i-am-agi 3y ago
super interesting!
thirdreplicator 3y ago
So much discussion of loneliness on this forum makes me think y'all are in the wrong country. Feeling lonely? Come to the Philippines! Sunnier, family-oriented, cheaper, everyone wants to have a relationship with foreigners (both men and women), waterfalls, sandbars, diving, cheap food and housing, and recently 200 Mbps internet. Been married to a Filipina for 14 years. So far so good. I came here from Silicon valley as a digital nomad and still here as a father and a husband. (Been back and forth though over the years.) Being a programmer and an introvert with a family of 3 children, creates the opposite problem of having too much social interaction and not enough alone time. Recently I've been able to negotiate more alone time with my children as my youngest is 8 years old, and they have lots of cousins to okay with. Overall, I think humans need to be with each other. Living in our little boxes by ourselves staring at screens is not natural.
- throw3738474 3y ago
  This feels really exploitative to me. I used to travel a lot for work and experienced first hand how large income disparities can affect people. I also met enough long term expats who were really jaded. It always made me wonder if they became like that or if they were always like that.
  - pancaku 3y ago
    I'm curious what you find exploitative about that? When I visited a south east asian country I was very surprised by the wealth disparity. However, I'm not seeing the connection between spending money as an expat with a significantly higher income compared to the rest of the country and exploitation. If anything it could be argued that you are injecting more cash into the economy from outside. Happy to be enlightened if I'm missing something!
    - dbancajas 3y ago
      Exploitative in a sense where old dudes with questionable morals go to 3rd world countries and use their money to do questionable things like have sex with underage individuals or just exploit women in general. Women will tend to be submissive because they can get financial security. Your average joe programmer in HN isn't the usual type to go and stay in another country and try to assimilate properly. A good portion of them are outcasts or losers in their home countries (for a reason) and trying to experience rockstar life in a 3rd world country. That's a cynical take but if you ever to go Philippines/Vietnam/Indonesia you'll see what I mean and remember this comment. Obviously there are exceptional cases where people marry for "love" but usually it's for financial security.
dahwolf 3y ago
We went from a physical/social world to "digital as complimentary" to "digital native" in just a few years time. If you look at the old world, one would spent a considerable amount of the day in the physical world with real people just to function. Work, do groceries, go to the movies, go to church (like it or not, powerful community builder), go to bars, the like. Only now do we start to understand how this "limited and inflexible" world had benefits we took for granted. Now many people can work from home, use food delivery, watch Netflix, then doom-scroll. In the rare cases that they are in public, they are rushed or buried in their phone, so unavailable. In the form of AI (hyper-personalization) and VR, more is on the horizon to complete our project of making the ultimate hyper-individualistic anti-social convenience consumer. We sold our humanity for convenience, short term urges capitalized by a handful of mega companies. Yes I'm dramatizing, but not that much, the trajectory is clear: loneliness might become the default.
- dahwolf 3y ago
  Small addendum: I'm middle-aged myself but got some hope from my gen-z nephews/nieces: they seem to understand what's happening. An example is vinyl. They collect it, and it's not just a hipster thing. This rationally makes no sense if you consider that Spotify will have any song at your fingertips wherever you go. Yet it totally makes sense. Digital music is dead, it has no soul, it's not real. If I tell you that I listened to a song on Spotify (out of 50 million of them) this is supremely meaningless. Yet if you visit my home (which is a vast improvement over a chat message) and I show you a real object with cover art and we both share the experience of listening to it, it's much more real. It's physical, and a shared experience. Likewise, if I'd share my Spotify playlist with somebody, that doesn't do much. Nobody's going to analyze a digital list of music forwarded by somebody else, especially without any background or curation. Yet if you look at a person's physical collection and they excitedly tell you about it, it's much more inviting to browse and explore. It's like a little piece of you, whilst digital belongs to nobody. Many of them also seem to play board games, whilst they could have played a million digital games. Anyway small sample size, but we need more of this.
1MachineElf 3y ago
I am surrounded by people everywhere I go, and yet: 1 person I know IRL has read the books which matter to me. 0 people I know IRL have watched the animes that matter to me. 0 people I know IRL read Hacker News. 0 people I know IRL really play the video games I like. 0 people I know IRL have travelled to the places I have and seen the things I've seen. Thousands of hours of my life are spent on things for which no one else I know can moderately appreciate. That is the essence of my loneliness. Also, 0 men I know IRL were raised by a single mother, so my social inclination and lifestyle are hard to relate to. Warning - the next bit talks about s-icide. Also, I can't talk to people I know about s-icidal thoughts. My father killed himself a decade ago, and it's apparent to me that the idea spreads like a virus. For someone to really understand my feelings and view on it would likely make them s-icidal too, which I can't bear the thought of. My fiancee has had an experience where a SO offed himself, so talking about it with her is triggering. She's also got anger management problems that make a lot of communication difficult. These are other contributors to feelings of social isolation and loneliness.

494 points by hirundo 3y ago

There's no better proof for the conclusion in the paper than the comments to this post. Your Cool Aid tornado feels like a lonely folks re-education camp already.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

Of course, if you go to some event and you're the only one, or one of the few without a partner or a group of friends, it's gonna feel shit. It's why so many people don't want to go to the movies or to the restaurant alone. If you go to the park and see many happy couples on benches kissing and you've been single and alone for a while, it's gonna be soul crushing. On the other hand if you go to an event where everyone goes alone or doesn't know anyone, you don't feel bad at all.

avocadoburger 3y ago
hey, movies alone are pretty cool, and I like to think of myself as a sociable person
drewcon 3y ago
I absolutely love going to the movies alone. One of life’s great gifts.
tambourine_man 3y ago
I loved going to the movies alone. Pre-Covid, that is. Haven't been to a movie theater since. For some reason, that never felt weird to me. Unless it's a super hero movie or something similar, that kind of movie is more fun with friends.
- em-bee 3y ago
  it depends on the motivation for going to movies. i like watching movies alone, because i don't want to be disturbed when focusing on the story. if i were someone who really enjoyed the big screen, i'd happily go to a movie theater by myself too. as it is, i don't care about big screens and high resolution as much, so my tv or computer screen at home is enough. that leaves going to movies for social events, which i actually don't like as much as it invariably leads to more disruptions.
cubefox 3y ago
Yeah. The best example is going to a party/bar/club alone, while most other attendees are there with their friends. Being there alone can feel incredibly awful, except if you are a high extraversion type who can make new friends quickly.
cassianoleal 3y ago
I love doing both things on my own. I also deeply enjoy doing them with friends. Both things are fine. Both can be great experiences.
robga 3y ago
I love going to the movies alone or a restaurant alone. Sometimes when I have half a day without family around these are exactly the activities that I choose to undertake. It’s not rare.
foxtrotwhiskey9 3y ago
I was terribly shy very depressed for most of my life since childhood. I've come a long way since then but I started going to EDM shows alone in my home city in my mid-30s recently and damn has it shifted my perspective on going out alone, talking to strangers. I've made so many new diverse friends and it's really helped my own struggles with loneliness. It has been overall been positively transformative to me.
SirMaster 3y ago
Couldn't disagree more with this. I've been alone my whole life and wouldn't want it any other way. I go to the movies alone, go out to eat alone. Who cares? Certainly not me. I do what I want when I want and it's fantastic. I couldn't care less that other people around me are "together". I've never had any desire for that.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  You don't want social connections which is fine, but most people do want them.
spacemadness 3y ago
I was listening to The Big Picture podcast, of which the podcasters watch way more movies in the theatre than I ever could. They seem like raging extroverts, but I guess a lot of podcasters are. One of them poked fun at men watching a movie alone in the afternoon not being dating material. The host (mostly?) was joking as he was watching the latest Transformers movie alone. It’s not just feeling alone in a crowd in that situation—-people fear being judged as well, like being forever stamped with “not dating material” on your forehead regardless of it being true or not. It kind of bothered me that he focused on that as it just adds to the social stigma.
BizarreByte 3y ago
I see a lot of people disagreeing with you, but HN is heavily biased towards a certain type of person, so it's not surprising. Most people don't want to do those things alone, I couldn't even imagine going out and eating alone. Going out alone where everyone else is together feels terrible. It's part of why I despise work parties at Christmas, because in that case feeling terrible is mandatory.

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

[dead]

ryanwaggoner 3y ago

”I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams

FBISurveillance 3y ago
I miss Robin Williams, it's terrifying that someone who looks like a happy and fulfilled person may end up... not being one day, out of the blue.
- arolihas 3y ago
  He did have Lewy-body dementia so it's not like he had a sudden lack of fulfillment out of the blue. Still terrifying, though.

IAmNotAFix 3y ago

"It is better to be alone than in bad company."

aubanel 3y ago
And yet poet Paul Valéry said "A lonely man is always in bad company". I'd love to understand what he precisely meant by that though.
sourcecodeplz 3y ago
I'd rather have shitty friends than no friends really, because shitty people are not shitty all the time.

asylteltine 3y ago

The ONLY times I feel lonely are when I’m with people. I love being alone. People need to chill out and appreciate being alone more. God I’m so happy I’m not an extrovert it must be awful. My extroverted friend was so bad during Covid sometimes he would go to business just to be able to talk to someone.

stronglikedan 3y ago
I concur, and I'm like you, but I also think we're edge cases. I believe most people are like your friend, which is why these studies of the gen pop usually turn out the way they do.
- scotty79 3y ago
  The edge is long and wide. I'm also like that.
SirMaster 3y ago
Yeah, I am mostly always alone and I love it. I have never felt any reason to have it any other way. I already read that humans are "supposed" to be social, but then why am I happiest alone. I don't worry about it and I just live the way I like to live and it's worked out great.
soco 3y ago
I'm extroverted but generally don't like people. So I could interact all fine and leave a good impression, it's just I prefer not to and mind my own business instead of listening politely to ramble. So there's no general solution to this.
- 93po 3y ago
  It seems the solution would be to find people you like. If you struggle to find people you like then the solution seems it could be to figure out what you like about yourself.
manicennui 3y ago

danybittel 3y ago

I believe "Loneliness" is a misnomer. The misery people feel when they are "alone" is not the lack of other people but the lack of connection. More precisely the disconnect with nature, oneself and to a lesser extend the community. A psychologist who studied loneliness said that the best remedy is time spend in the forest. If lonely people go and force themself to get around other people, they usually drag everybody down.

wenc 3y ago
Would be interesting to see this study. I personally feel more lonely in nature, especially in forests. I need the energy of big cities to feel a warm glow. I suspect I’m not the only one and there’s a large percentage of the population who are similar to me. When I used to live in small towns, I would have a strong need to periodically visit a big city to restore my emotions. I love the feeling of being in a crowd even if I never talk to anyone. I love the bustle and noise and potential for new encounters. Nature feels isolating to me. I wonder if I’m wired this way because I grew up in a big city. We’re wired to look for places where we can feel we’re “at home”, and that’s usually a function of childhood experiences.
- kentiko 3y ago
  I think I am same as you. I recently noticed that listening to birds singing make me feel incredibly melancholic. I was very lonely for a few years. I was listening to the singing a lot when I was at my place, and now I have associated birds singing and loneliness. It is unfortunate that something so calming and beautiful now makes me feel sad. It has become the sound of loneliness to me.
- dotxlem 3y ago
  I agree that it might be due to where we grow up ... I grew up in a forest on an island with few people living within walking distance. But I've been living in a small city for about 14 years, and more and more I long to go back to living somewhere were there aren't all these people around. Or more importantly, to somewhere so much more _quiet_.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago

throw0101c 3y ago

The Harvard Study, which has been following individuals for their entire lives for decades, and has even started following some of their descendants, has found that connections are strongly correlated with happiness, health, and general life satisfaction: > What makes a life fulfilling and meaningful? The simple but surprising answer is: relationships. The stronger our relationships, the more likely we are to live happy, satisfying, and healthier lives. In fact, the Harvard Study of Adult Development reveals that the strength of our connections with others can predict the health of both our bodies and our brains as we go through life. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61272271-the-good-life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61272271-the-good-life

FormerBandmate 3y ago
Yeah, people feel less lonely when they’re around people who they like and who like them. “People feel more lonely when they’re around other people” is the type of stuff you could only find on the internet or in academia, you can logic yourself into it but it’s so far beyond common sense it’s insane
- jprete 3y ago
  Anecdotally, I disagree. I definitely feel more lonely when I’m in large groups and feel disconnected. If I’m alone, I’m not lonely unless I’m thinking about those large groups and my absence of connection - and I can even feel lonely if my connections just aren’t available at a given moment.
- gryn 3y ago
  well I guess it's the kind of thing you have to experience to believe. from my personal experience, being with the wrong crowd can definitely make you more lonely than being alone doing your own thing.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > “People feel more lonely when they’re around other people” Oh it’s entirely easy to be super lonely when surrounded by other people. The easiest way to achieve this that I’ve found is being a +1 at a wedding. You’re surrounded with people you’ve never met who all know each other pretty well and have tight bonds. Makes you feel super isolated and alone in a way that just isn’t noticeable in an empty room.

mustafa_pasi 3y ago

This might be weird, but I only feel lonely when I try to improve my social life (and inevitably fail). When I sort of give up and fall back to my usual routine, I do not mind being alone. I am sort of so far away from all of THAT, that I do not even have the desire for human connection.

em-bee 3y ago
makes total sense to me. if i were content to be alone, i'd not bother trying to connect. what stops me from being content is that i fear i might not be content forever, and also that i being alone is not how i want to live, even if i were to find a way to be happy with it because i believe the future of our society depends on building community and connections.
stef25 3y ago
How long has that been going on for? If it goes on for many years you might find yourself very alone during times you really don't want to be. Made that mistake myself and wish I had not.

revskill 3y ago

Loneliness is when you got downvoted on HN (it simply means noone agrees with you). But it's better than noone votes on you, it's real loneliness.

pawelduda 3y ago
imagine being shadowbanned
- scotty79 3y ago
  Recently I got slapped for some inflamatory comments. Now I can't post too much in any give span of time. It really bums me out and interferes with my use of the site. I think it's few months already. Does anyone know if this rate-limiting is temporary measure or if I need to abandon decade old account if I want to have the full functionality back?
  - therealcamino 3y ago
    Ask dang, probably.
- rjbwork 3y ago
  Turning on showdead is a real trip. There's a few people who have been posting on this forum for years, often about the same pet cause in nearly every post.
  - s5300 3y ago
    [dead]

wenc 3y ago

Before we go in circles, one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. There are two variables, both adjustable. Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine. But being in a situation that reminds you of your lack sometimes creates that desire, which creates that delta. Likewise, if you’re an extrovert, you desire lots of social connection and when it falls below what you actually have you feel sad. We can’t always control the amount of social connection we get due to circumstances, but we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us.

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
This is a great way to look at introversion/extroversion.
noisy_boy 3y ago
> Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. And when the delta becomes negative, loneliness turns into tiredness. E.g. when an introvert doesn't desire social connection and has too much.
93po 3y ago
I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the capability to form healthy, fulfilling relationships with other humans and therefore don't have much (if any) past history of feeling fulfilled by social interaction. If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  >If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.

ThrowMeABC 3y ago

Absolutely agree. When I am at home working alone under a crushing deadline for days, I feel lonely, but that's somewhat tolerable, since I accomplish something. On the other hand I love dancing, but when I go to clubs alone, I am miserable for days seeing all groups enjoying themselves while I nurture my drink, watching the other dancers. It has gotten so bad that I rarely go to any social events anymore.

ConfusedDog 3y ago

I believe so. I was the loneliest after I got married when my now "ex" was really demanding and paranoid. People are most lonely when get excluded from their peers from school or work or social any groups. Old people are lonely because their friends and families are keep dying off or unable to social any longer. That's the reason I recommend joining some good social or religious organizations and make friends across all walks of life and ages, keep an open mind and enjoy life. Do not engage with toxic people, only keep good companies. Don't engage with people who don't want to engage, or thinking you can help them. People need to walk out of their own rut to be truly happy.

swayvil 3y ago
Thank you. Your advice is stunningly relevant.
jimmygrapes 3y ago
Amen. An addendum, if I may: when considering "toxic" please be wary of all-or-nothing cognitive fallacies. People who have one trait or belief or habit that you disagree with (even if strongly) do not necessarily come saddled with other things you might presume (ie just because they're catholic doesn't mean they're a pedo, just because they have tattoos doesn't mean they're a criminal, just because they have guns doesn't make them a white supremacist, etc.). People are complex, and you might be missing your best friend for life if you are prejudicial.
- copperx 3y ago
  That's the problem with the weak popular vocabulary. 'Toxic' can mean just about anything.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    well what matters is, what it means to you. if a person makes you uncomfortable then it's probably better to stay away from them. only if you can't do that, then it may be worth it to reevaluate why it is they make you uncomfortable and see if you can change that.

Iridescent_ 3y ago

Being alone when there is no one else is just normal. Being alone in the middle of everyone else is what loneliness is.

scotty79 3y ago

I wonder if it relates to depression and suicidality. Often people who died from that seemed pretty social. Maybe they were suffering excessively from loneliness in other people's company, with a smile on their faces and would be better off if they were left alone for a prolonged while instead?

kathlam 3y ago
Sometimes the 'cheeriest' people are the most depressed. I think Robin Williams is a prime example.
skim_milk 3y ago
A significant portion of people committing suicides (no one knows how much %) are likely to be clinical or subclinical Borderlines. This population isn't shy because they critically rely on others in order to regulate their emotions for them.

raydiatian 3y ago

Everybody should go hike for a month and be alone in nature. It shook out of me any notion that loneliness is a bad thing.

jobs_throwaway 3y ago
How did you feel during/afterwards? Did it make you change any behaviors permanently?
- raydiatian 3y ago
  Good for young people graduating college or with 1yr of work under their belt. Quit your job, buy gear, disappear. Go ultra light. Essentially become homeless. Own at most two pairs of clothing. Don’t worry about showering daily (or weekly), but keep your face clean and your teeth brushed. Don’t let the gear&food on your back exceed 35lbs (15kg). Sleep under the stars when it isn’t raining. How I felt during: pretty rad. there’s this surreal thing that happens when you spend all day in direct contact with the sun and the moon. You feel physically connected to the solar system. You sense the Sun behind the earth at night. You get a real emotional connection with the environment and that has made climate change a bit more personal for me. In general, I’d never felt as much joy as I felt then. There’s this other surreal thing that happens. If you quit your job to go hike, you start seeing the weeks in front of you as bare and free, and the present becomes one long continuous moment. I also spent a lot of my spare time reading old classical Greek and American philosophy. Seneca, Plato, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Ayn Rand, Thoreau, Emerson. It plugged me into the “meta-game” aspect of life, of course we’re all living but how could we live. Takeaways: society is full of strings, things you don’t actually need to survive. time is better spent learning or exploring. it’s okay to abandon people that you feel you’ve outgrown. People my age (mid 30s) talk about how stressed they are and I can honestly say my attitude was permanently changed by that trip. I suppose Im a happy nihilist. Nothing matters, but that’s not a bad thing. I’m not hitting all of my goals, but my understanding of what reality is has been fundamentally altered where I know it’s not all about me, so losing is actually not a problem. It’s a lesson for me in the present, and my loss might become somebody else’s gain.

codeangler 3y ago

If the _feeling_ of loneliness starts with a sensory/somatic experience then to know it means it is interpreted. If it is interpreted then it went through a filter of values and beliefs. And all of this is contextual to environmental cues In other words if we could stimulate the same somatic experience in people then some may find relief and others distress and others may not notice it amounts the billions of sensory input in any given moment. Want to feel (dis)connected. Change the somatic experience? Change the environment/context? Change the interpretation? My mantra for a while “I am a tree in woods” ( reminded that I’m part of a connected system) “I am a tree in a field” ( I’m unattached )

some_random 3y ago

At college there was program where student volunteers would hang around high traffic areas and "cheer people up" by shouting at passersby to tell them they're loved or whatever. Obviously, this only makes actually depressed and lonely students feel worse. It's exactly the kind of thing that someone who'd never felt depressed in their life would come up with, and when I mentioned this to some of the people involved in the program they were absolutely flabbergasted.

nordsieck 3y ago
> when I mentioned this to some of the people involved in the program they were absolutely flabbergasted. I think that a lot of people have a difficult time understanding that good intentions can lead to bad outcomes.
- stockboss 3y ago
  that's why there's the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
- moffkalast 3y ago
  And an even more difficult time accepting that people will hate them for it regardless of their intentions. After all it's all to easy to lie about having good intentions, even to yourself. We're evolutionarily hard wired to do what's best for ourselves, which often includes being altruistic to gain more social acceptance. That's why being "lonely" is a problem at all, we feel emotional pain to get us to work with the group, since that's what's always meant longer survival.
- jimkleiber 3y ago
  And how hard it is to convince other people to believe in our good intentions.
- munificent 3y ago
  I think almost everyone understands that good intentions can lead to bad outcomes. But, also, everyone understands that good intentions can lead to good outcomes. Determining which is which is a very hard problem. One strategy might be, "Don't do anything unless I'm absolutely certain it will lead to a good outcome." If you do that, you'll miss out on many opportunities that would have good outcomes but who's certainty isn't up to your standards. So while the intention behind pointing out that good intentions can have bad outcomes is good, the outcome is bad.

trizoza 3y ago

If you want to feel real loneliness, go alone to a fair or a Christmas markets.

bladecd 3y ago

"I am alone. I'm not lonely"

sornaensis 3y ago

The worst feeling in the world is being a bit lonely, and then being by yourself in a place where you are surrounded by groups of people. I got more depressed more often trying to go do social things in uni than I ever did physically being separated from others and actually by myself.

damascus 3y ago
It was this type of setting that showed me the huge difference between being lonely and being alone. I'm rarely lonely when I'm alone. Thankfully I have long since engaged in social activities and have a great social life now, but even still that feeling is just below the surface. I went to the club with two girls the other night and when they both went to the bathroom together I was by myself in a club and even though I knew it was just for a few moments that old feeling was right there again. We are indeed social creatures.
Hnaomyiph 3y ago
Yeah, I’ve noticed this recently. As I spend more time with my current friend group in the new city I live in, the worse I feel because it seems like we’re just surface level friends, whereas when I spend time with my friends back home it greatly lifts my spirits because it’s a genuine connection. It’s a an extremely odd feeling because from the outside I’m sure it looks like I have a great social life and good friends, but I’ve never felt more alone in my life. And I’m not sure how to address this conundrum, on one hand I want a stronger friendship with this new group of friends and don’t want to be alone, but at the same time it seems as if I would be happier if I disconnected myself from the group and was actually alone.

Isamu 3y ago

This is especially true if you find it hard to start conversations and connections. I would feel very lonely in a large unfamiliar group at university. But go walk through the woods and the loneliness is gone.

photochemsyn 3y ago

A lot of these studies may be culturally specific, in that the focus is on the fulfillment of the individual, i.e. the thinking is 'what's best for me' rather than 'what's best for the group'. Consider that if you're feeling depressed and lonely and otherwise miserable, and seek out the company of others to alleviate your own negative emotional state, then you're essentially treating other people like a drug you take to improve your mood. Others will tend to see you as needy, demanding, a downer, etc. The solution is to first figure out how to be happy on your own, to improve your mental and emotional state, such that other people find your company pleasant and agreeable - then they'll actually want to share your company. It's a bit like physical hygiene - if you smell bad, people will keep their distance. Mental hygiene is the same concept. Unfortunately, consumer society is based on exploiting people's negative emotional states to improve sales - go shopping to alleviate loneliness, buy a bottle of pills to improve your mood, etc. It's not a very healthy system, and it's not surprising many people are so alienated.

nonlincoder 3y ago

Loneliness Got a mind of its own The more people around The more you feel alone --Bob Dylan, Marchin' to the city

pickingdinner 3y ago

Loneliness has nothing to do with alone-ness. Most of us are perfectly happy alone, being left alone, and may even prefer it. Similarly, depression has nothing to do with alone-ness. It's being perfectly sad. Depression is the only cause of perfect sadness, and sadness is never the cause of depression. Healing depression cannot be done by healing sadness. Your triggers and the cause of your condition could be many things, but until you figure those things out, nothing will undo your depression or sadness.

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pradn 3y ago

For years and years of my life, I had enough friends to do stuff with, but with whom I couldn't really talk about things I cared about. I didn't realize what that did to me until way later, when I finally did find a few of sort of friends I was looking for. I'm trying to say that in-depth topical interests / ways of looking at life need to match as well - not just having someone to grab dinner with.

spicyramen_ 3y ago

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bevan 3y ago

Since quitting caffeine and alcohol, I rarely get lonely. In fact, quitting those drugs seems to have helped reduce the time I spend in any negative emotion. I still have acute bouts of [whatever negative emotion here], but I rarely get mired in them. This seems to have less to do with any change in my living situation since the switch (I often hermit away, as I did before) and more to do with being in a more resourceful state more often (which neither drug helped with). I suspect that alcohol and caffeine-induced negative emotion is widespread. Even a glass or two of alcohol can affect your sleep, and less REM sleep means less emotional regulation. I know basically everyone's on caffeine, but ingesting that can accentuate the peaks and valleys of one's emotional experience. The alcohol and caffeine-induced troughs may be sub-clinical, but they're probably real for a lot of people.

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survirtual 3y ago
Okay. What works for you doesn't work for everyone. My baseline "sober" -- no caffeine, no anything -- is crippling, paralyzing depression. Hiking is my drug of choice, but I need to be hiking all day, nearly every day, for months for it to take action, and that is not compatible with existing in society. Without hiking, and without any other support, then I revert to existing as a pool of dark sludge on a bed all day. I spent years this way before I decided to set aside my pride and accept that having a little help -- caffeine at a minimum -- to be functional is better for my health than any perceived ideas around addiction or "purity". Coffee / caffeine can take me from a non-functional, paralyzing mental disability to being able to move around and have momentum. And yes, there are circumstances that can change where this wouldn't happen and I wouldn't need a support like that: a world-wide revolution resulting in the liberation of all mankind from the dystopian hellscape we are in / plunging ourselves further into would do it. Short of that, I'll stick with a couple cups of coffee a day, thanks.
- bevan 3y ago
  Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. I relate to this because I've dealt with depression too, which I also medicated in various ways. Other than quitting the two aforementioned drugs, what helped a lot for me was living in a more evolutionarily consistent way. Especially around nutrition, sunlight, and sleep. I made this the focus of my life for about a year because the alternative was, well, you know about that. Good luck.

nativecoinc 3y ago

This is pretty obvious from my experience. I don’t really get “lonely” but I can be miserable when out among people. But by myself I might just be bored. But only some times. You know how “humans are social creatures”? A sort of corollary to that is that people define what a normal person is. And very subtle-like too. No one needs to spell it out one-on-one. But it’s always there. A constant reminder of how you might not conform, might not be good enough, might not have the right connections, might have the wrong interests. And once you check enough of those anti-boxes you realize that neither you nor other people have anything to offer each other. You are a bore, and they are there just to remind you of your failures. That one can be lonely or feel bad in a crowd of people might be counter-intuitive to many because the narrative goes that loneliness is a disease that inflicts the individual and is only about a lack of people. But isn’t that hypocritical? How can you say that “humans are social creatures” and just outright deny all the negative signals that people (us) send to each other all the time?

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> And once you check enough of those anti-boxes you realize that neither you nor other people have anything to offer each other. You are a bore, and they are there just to remind you of your failures. Emotions aren't the truth. This is just a particular psychological hangup. https://old.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/o7huc5/russ_hudson_on_the_instincts_subtypes/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/o7huc5/russ_huds... > When SX is our blind spot, the self attack is along the lines of "I am hopelessly boring. I can't imagine anyone taking much interest in me, & if they do I suspect there is something wrong with them. Thank God I can be useful because few would be interested in me otherwise.
- nativecoinc 3y ago
  I don’t know what the Enneagram is. Some things aren’t just taken out of thin air. Part of being a “social creature” is that you pick up on what other people think of you by observing how they talk about other people that you have something in common with. And that doesn’t have to be something wishy-washy like “being boring”; it could be very concrete, objective things, like being X or having Y. Then you go, huh, that’s me as well. And then you listen to them say that oh, people who are X, Y, and Z are A and B. And that’s you as well. But no (someone says), they’re wrong: it’s just their opinion. It’s entirely subjective and partial. ... But don’t you see? That’s what being a social creature is—being at the whims of the opinion of others. How can you possibly claim that Humans Are Social Creatures, and then blame the person who is affected by What Others Think of Them?

silverpepsi 3y ago

I'm at a loss for how to explain the polar opposite results of two situations I've been in. I worked 3 year in an office in two different countries where the prevailing mode was absolutely silence, no socialization, no connection, no words beyond pleasantries about nonwork things. One office spoke my native language, one didn't. Those were both really dark depressing experiences. I often felt distressed by loneliness, of being a ghost haunting the human world. Currently I'm doing the nomad thing, don't speak the language for crap, and spend 3-10 hours a day in coffee shops working. I order at the kiosk so no human interaction. I people watch and feel fantastic. I have been here 6 months and haven't interacted with anyone during this time. Best guess: In the offices I feel like I had a strong expectation for my life to play out like an American office sitcom. I have no such expectation for random people in a coffee shop to ever speak with me. I think expectations alone determine the result, even for someone 9/10 on the psychologists neuroticism scales. If I hadn't experienced this first hand with years of personal evidence behind it to show, I wouldn't believe it could "all be in my head". But that's the only theory that works

fluoridation 3y ago
For any given thing we desire to have, we have a set amount that we would like to have each day (or per amount of time) to feel satisfied. Total abstinence of a thing is easier than consumption restricted to below that set amount. When you're in total abstinence, you can forget that the thing even exists. It ceases to occupy your mind, so you don't feel like there's a want going unfulfilled. When instead you have just a little bit, far too little to satisfy you, the difference between the amount you're getting and how much you'd like causes intense anxiety that you have to deal with somehow.

ergonaught 3y ago

o/` I feel so alone in a room full of people. I'm loneliest when I'm out in a crowd. o/` https://genius.com/Suicidal-tendencies-alone-lyrics https://genius.com/Suicidal-tendencies-alone-lyrics

samgilb 3y ago

"I have seen others enjoying while I stood alone with myself...a mere dead mirror on which things reflect themselves" - W.B.Yeats

m3kw9 3y ago

The difference is only much more apparent, like if you live with n a box next to a mansion instead of a whole city of boxes, you see the huge difference. It’s like how advertising works to make you want things

anigbrowl 3y ago

No duh, any depressed person living in a city or sharing a home could tell you this. To be sure, many ignorant people refuse to listen to the voices of the depressed, but they're likely to refuse to listen to the NIH as well. Willfully ignorant people don't want to be informed, as they find life more enjoyable when they can pick and choose their facts.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

During the pandemic I moved out to the middle of nowhere in NY State. I am surrounded by nature, wildlife, and my neighbors are barely within shouting distance. I rarely ever see friends, go to coffee shops, restaurants, clubs, movies, shopping, etc. And I have never been so not-lonely. My time is filled with activities and projects so I barely have enough time to just sit with a cup of coffee. When I do, I have a whole backyard full of flora and fauna to look at and listen to, like one of those YouTube channels streaming nature sounds. Country folk have the right idea living out here. You don't miss what you don't see.

gauddasa 3y ago

It's bad idea to generalize it. Just surround yourself with children, old people and pets and experience loneliness vanish into thin air. It really depends on type of crowd around you.

steve918 3y ago

For me it's more about lack of connection. My loneliest times are when I'm at home with my family, but we're just occupying the same space. If I actually make an effort to connect by sharing what's going on in my life or talking about the future then it's a lot more positive.

javajosh 3y ago

This is misleading. All problems are easier to bear when you are connected to people dealing with the same problem. Conversely, all problems are harder to bear when you must deal with it alone, particularly when you feel you MUST deal with it alone. The implication is that if you feel lonely you should not seek out others, but rather others who feel lonely. They will understand you, and you them, and you can talk or sit or simply know that you exist, in far larger numbers than you'd expect, and find great comfort in the thought.

browningstreet 3y ago

From the article: > These findings suggest that simply spending time with others (vs. alone) is not associated with a reduced burden of loneliness and may even backfire. As a member ranking pretty low on the socialization needs scale, I would suggest that the regular barrage of "you need a social life / people in your life at the end of your life" media isn't actually balanced with "learn how to be happy by yourself, and with yourself" counterparts. But I will concede this: I'm pretty happy being by myself most of the time. I miss my son when he's gone but I look forward to using my solo time fruitfully (if even that means vegging on the couch binging something). But what can feel distressing, and loneliness inducing, for me is when I get the urge to be social and can't drum it up. It sometimes feels like the urge to be gregarious arrives inversely proportional to its opportunities... the few people in your life just aren't available, and sometimes you visit a coffee shop or a grocery store and no one will make eye contact with you, and sometimes you try and run a few quick errands in peace and everyone seems out to chat with you. I've learned to experience each with grace, but neither flow really changes what I usually need, and how much of it.

namtab00 3y ago
I think you just described the proverbial "human condition"

gbolcer 3y ago

I skimmed through the paper and the comments, but my real question is: is online social networking considered a crowd and does it have the same effects?

notShabu 3y ago

IMO most of what is "connectedness" or "anti-loneliness" is an illusion. Like those movie scenes where two actors mirror each other's movements to create the illusion of a mirror. That is, connectedness requires an external structure to synchronize everyone's rhythm. This can be a sports team, a religion, a shared love the same anime or breed of dog, etc... Loneliness feels more pronounced when in the presence of these illusions. It's not easily solved because from the pov of the lonely person, he/she is asked to believe the equivalent of "2+2=5" in exchange for that kind of connection. It feels like an ask to self-lobotomize. (even if from the pov of say a therapist, the client is actually just in a different kind of illusion) * "illusion" can have negative valence so an alternative here is "story" or "pillar of meaning"

laiwjrtlai 3y ago

Robin Williams (might have) said: "The worst thing isn't being alone. The worst thing is being surrounded by people who make you feel alone."

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

For as much as HN hates on Psychology as a field of study, it is Psychology stories that get the most comments, the most discussion, the most interest. It might be because people like talking about themselves more than anything else. How can one day, the HN consensus seems to be that Psychology is a pseudo-science filled with con-men. Then the next day there is a new Psychology study submitted, and suddenly HN totally forgets its pseudo-science, now it is 'oh, let me talk about my experience with X'.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago
This entire site is full of Certified Experts (TM) who absolutely must have their opinion heard. (In other words, like every other site on the internet, and gnashing its teeth at the reality of that statement with a lot of "I'm not like other girls" energy.)

throwaway886622 3y ago

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9919037-loneliness-is-not-cured-by-human-company-loneliness-is-cured https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9919037-loneliness-is-not-c...

tsss 3y ago

Good to hear that we have found yet another reason to move attention away from lonely men who haven't had a friend for 20 years to those that really need it: popular people who are sad about not being allowed to go party for two weeks during covid lockdown.

i-am-agi 3y ago

super interesting!

thirdreplicator 3y ago

So much discussion of loneliness on this forum makes me think y'all are in the wrong country. Feeling lonely? Come to the Philippines! Sunnier, family-oriented, cheaper, everyone wants to have a relationship with foreigners (both men and women), waterfalls, sandbars, diving, cheap food and housing, and recently 200 Mbps internet. Been married to a Filipina for 14 years. So far so good. I came here from Silicon valley as a digital nomad and still here as a father and a husband. (Been back and forth though over the years.) Being a programmer and an introvert with a family of 3 children, creates the opposite problem of having too much social interaction and not enough alone time. Recently I've been able to negotiate more alone time with my children as my youngest is 8 years old, and they have lots of cousins to okay with. Overall, I think humans need to be with each other. Living in our little boxes by ourselves staring at screens is not natural.

throw3738474 3y ago
This feels really exploitative to me. I used to travel a lot for work and experienced first hand how large income disparities can affect people. I also met enough long term expats who were really jaded. It always made me wonder if they became like that or if they were always like that.
- pancaku 3y ago
  I'm curious what you find exploitative about that? When I visited a south east asian country I was very surprised by the wealth disparity. However, I'm not seeing the connection between spending money as an expat with a significantly higher income compared to the rest of the country and exploitation. If anything it could be argued that you are injecting more cash into the economy from outside. Happy to be enlightened if I'm missing something!
  - dbancajas 3y ago
    Exploitative in a sense where old dudes with questionable morals go to 3rd world countries and use their money to do questionable things like have sex with underage individuals or just exploit women in general. Women will tend to be submissive because they can get financial security. Your average joe programmer in HN isn't the usual type to go and stay in another country and try to assimilate properly. A good portion of them are outcasts or losers in their home countries (for a reason) and trying to experience rockstar life in a 3rd world country. That's a cynical take but if you ever to go Philippines/Vietnam/Indonesia you'll see what I mean and remember this comment. Obviously there are exceptional cases where people marry for "love" but usually it's for financial security.

dahwolf 3y ago

We went from a physical/social world to "digital as complimentary" to "digital native" in just a few years time. If you look at the old world, one would spent a considerable amount of the day in the physical world with real people just to function. Work, do groceries, go to the movies, go to church (like it or not, powerful community builder), go to bars, the like. Only now do we start to understand how this "limited and inflexible" world had benefits we took for granted. Now many people can work from home, use food delivery, watch Netflix, then doom-scroll. In the rare cases that they are in public, they are rushed or buried in their phone, so unavailable. In the form of AI (hyper-personalization) and VR, more is on the horizon to complete our project of making the ultimate hyper-individualistic anti-social convenience consumer. We sold our humanity for convenience, short term urges capitalized by a handful of mega companies. Yes I'm dramatizing, but not that much, the trajectory is clear: loneliness might become the default.

dahwolf 3y ago
Small addendum: I'm middle-aged myself but got some hope from my gen-z nephews/nieces: they seem to understand what's happening. An example is vinyl. They collect it, and it's not just a hipster thing. This rationally makes no sense if you consider that Spotify will have any song at your fingertips wherever you go. Yet it totally makes sense. Digital music is dead, it has no soul, it's not real. If I tell you that I listened to a song on Spotify (out of 50 million of them) this is supremely meaningless. Yet if you visit my home (which is a vast improvement over a chat message) and I show you a real object with cover art and we both share the experience of listening to it, it's much more real. It's physical, and a shared experience. Likewise, if I'd share my Spotify playlist with somebody, that doesn't do much. Nobody's going to analyze a digital list of music forwarded by somebody else, especially without any background or curation. Yet if you look at a person's physical collection and they excitedly tell you about it, it's much more inviting to browse and explore. It's like a little piece of you, whilst digital belongs to nobody. Many of them also seem to play board games, whilst they could have played a million digital games. Anyway small sample size, but we need more of this.

1MachineElf 3y ago

I am surrounded by people everywhere I go, and yet: 1 person I know IRL has read the books which matter to me. 0 people I know IRL have watched the animes that matter to me. 0 people I know IRL read Hacker News. 0 people I know IRL really play the video games I like. 0 people I know IRL have travelled to the places I have and seen the things I've seen. Thousands of hours of my life are spent on things for which no one else I know can moderately appreciate. That is the essence of my loneliness. Also, 0 men I know IRL were raised by a single mother, so my social inclination and lifestyle are hard to relate to. Warning - the next bit talks about s-icide. Also, I can't talk to people I know about s-icidal thoughts. My father killed himself a decade ago, and it's apparent to me that the idea spreads like a virus. For someone to really understand my feelings and view on it would likely make them s-icidal too, which I can't bear the thought of. My fiancee has had an experience where a SO offed himself, so talking about it with her is triggering. She's also got anger management problems that make a lot of communication difficult. These are other contributors to feelings of social isolation and loneliness.