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I strongly suspect that you don't need to actually get into a sleeping state for an attempted nap to be beneficial. It loosens the bolts of the mind a bit. As l

by pizza 3y ago

I strongly suspect that you don't need to actually get into a sleeping state for an attempted nap to be beneficial. It loosens the bolts of the mind a bit. As long as you can stop attending to the signals of the outside world, you free up a little brain power to do a little relaxation/mental de-fragmentation. The problem is that sometimes people feel if they didn't drift off that it was a waste of their time (usually it's people who are always busy who feel the loss of 15 minutes as the most damaging), and feel worse off after. The key idea is to be able to up-regulate or down-regulate your mental energy expenditure per unit time (or 'power') as you feel necessary. If napping affects your sleep schedule negatively, it's because you feel it gives you too high an energy level at an inappropriate time, i.e. that it negatively affects your ability to manage your energy level better at will.

reustle 3y ago
I nap regularly and sometimes even a flash nap (?) where I fall asleep for what feels like only 30-60 seconds, and I can still feel quite recharged.
- euroderf 3y ago
  Same here. Methinks that even just losing consciousness does something to recharge the mind.
MichaelRo 3y ago
For me achieving a successful nap means getting to the stage of dreaming. If I wake up from a vivid weirdness (dreams don't make sense most of the time), then it's certain I'll feel energetic in about half an hour. Otherwise it's some form of rest rest but I still feel tired. It's extremely annoying trying to concentrate when feeling tired.
kqr 3y ago
One of the things I learned from researching sleep in preparation of becoming a parent is that sleep is sleep. Rest is not sleep. To get the benefits of sleep, you have to sleep. Resting does give you benefits, but they are not those of sleep. You cannot replace sleep with rest and expect anything comparable. I don't remember the primary source but I do know it was emphasised in sleep management policies in military contexts. That said, I agree with your overall theme. Get some relaxation and don't worry so much about the sleeping. It takes training to learn how to nap, especially in the high-stimulus environments of today. But if you stress over sleep, well, that surely won't get you to sleep!
- thefz 3y ago
  > One of the things I learned from researching sleep in preparation of becoming a parent is that sleep is sleep. Rest is not sleep. To get the benefits of sleep, you have to sleep. I agree with the parent comment you replied to. There's a middle mental relaxation state that is not deep sleep, which will give enormous benefits for mental freshness aftwerwards. I identify it when my mind is no longer "driven" by my conscious process but is wandering off, and I am awake and aware of this status.
  - sporritt 3y ago
    >I am awake and aware of this status. I really enjoy this state, but I find it hard to keep it going for very long. Pretty soon I think about how great it is that I'm not thinking, and it's all over.
    - galleywest200 3y ago
      Recognizing that you are thinking of nothing and especially being aware that period is now over is forward progress. Keep at it and you will be able to "meditate" much longer.
firecall 3y ago
This would be somewhat like meditation, from how you describe it :-) I’d often sit in my car at lunchtimes and do a guided meditation. It did help during my corporate days.
bowsamic 3y ago
All known evidence points against this
- JimDabell 3y ago
  I’ve read several articles recently that say the opposite, so I did a quick search and found multiple studies that seem to contradict you almost immediately. For instance: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19379769/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19379769/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29717187/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29717187/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29883710/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29883710/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31852988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31852988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34011516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34011516/ I’m certainly not arguing that the science is settled on this, but it seems far too strong a statement to say that “all known evidence points against this” when I could find several studies supporting OP’s point pretty much instantly.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    No one said that rest does nothing, but rest is still totally different from actual sleep. You aren't getting the benefits of sleep from resting. People here just want to think that it's true, because it sounds convenient
    - pizza 3y ago
      Not sure if it's worth bringing up but I intended for my earlier comment to be about how rest is not awful just because it's not full sleep. Which, somehow, seems to be the opposite of what people think I said. Go figure.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        It's beneficial in a way that is totally orthogonal to the ways in which sleeping is beneficial. If you just try and rest and never sleep, you will have all the negatives of total sleep deprivation
Larrikin 3y ago
After years of being on this site I strongly suspect there is absolutely no correlation between being a good software engineer and being able to extrapolate into other fields without also putting in about the same amount of studying time. A lot of people in our field are extremely logical, but there are so many posts like this where decades of research are ignored from other very smart people in favor of conclusions drawn from thinking "logically" about the problem for ten minutes similar to Aristotle. Every so often someone happens upon a good conclusion, but not usually. There are so many studies, over decades, showing these thoughts to have no grounding.
- thatjoeoverthr 3y ago
  A lot of words to insult the OP but nothing helpful or clarifying added to the conversation.
  - voz_ 3y ago
    The HN way.
    - keithalewis 3y ago
      The Dunning and Krueger approved way.
  - davisoneee 3y ago
    I actually find it a helpful reminder. "People spout shit. Don't just blindly trust it". Otherwise, you end up chasing things, thinking they help, when there is little evidence backing it up other than someone's opinion.
  - simmerup 3y ago
    But very true regardless. Reading HN for health advice is like talking to your barber about stock options. A way to spend time but not to get information to work off of
    - 3y ago
dan00 3y ago
It was always so draining going for lunch with work colleagues, that couldn't stop talking about work and tried to eat as fast as possible.
hardware2win 3y ago
It doesnt work for me Lying in bed trying to sleep doesnt count as sleep
andy_ppp 3y ago
Huberman is constantly talking about the benefits in the literature of non-sleep deep rest (NSDR) and yoga nidra so I tend to believe the science backs you up too.
mejutoco 3y ago
I read somewhere that growth hormone gets released after a proper nap (not just rest, maybe 30 min or so). Body builders, and actors preparing for roles where they bulk up need to take several naps a day. I don't have a source handy, unfortunately.
- offices 3y ago
  That sounds like an plausible excuse of two groups who buy HGH
cout 3y ago
As explained to me by a sleep doctor, sometimes people do feel as if they didn't sleep after a nap, but still feel rested. We often don't remember stage 1 or 2 sleep but that doesn't mean we didn't sleep. So yes, a nap is valuable even if you feel you didn't drift off, but it is not necessary to invoke mental energy expenditure as an explanation.
LVB 3y ago
Whether or not this is “backed up by science” (as replies have focused on), my own personal long term experiment says that for me this is absolutely the case. At a certain lull in the day I can either take some time to relax and feel rejuvenated for the remainder, or I can expect to drag throughout. “Loosen the bolts” is an apt metaphor and exactly how I feel.

by pizza 3y ago

reustle 3y ago

I nap regularly and sometimes even a flash nap (?) where I fall asleep for what feels like only 30-60 seconds, and I can still feel quite recharged.

euroderf 3y ago
Same here. Methinks that even just losing consciousness does something to recharge the mind.

MichaelRo 3y ago

For me achieving a successful nap means getting to the stage of dreaming. If I wake up from a vivid weirdness (dreams don't make sense most of the time), then it's certain I'll feel energetic in about half an hour. Otherwise it's some form of rest rest but I still feel tired. It's extremely annoying trying to concentrate when feeling tired.

kqr 3y ago

One of the things I learned from researching sleep in preparation of becoming a parent is that sleep is sleep. Rest is not sleep. To get the benefits of sleep, you have to sleep. Resting does give you benefits, but they are not those of sleep. You cannot replace sleep with rest and expect anything comparable. I don't remember the primary source but I do know it was emphasised in sleep management policies in military contexts. That said, I agree with your overall theme. Get some relaxation and don't worry so much about the sleeping. It takes training to learn how to nap, especially in the high-stimulus environments of today. But if you stress over sleep, well, that surely won't get you to sleep!

thefz 3y ago
> One of the things I learned from researching sleep in preparation of becoming a parent is that sleep is sleep. Rest is not sleep. To get the benefits of sleep, you have to sleep. I agree with the parent comment you replied to. There's a middle mental relaxation state that is not deep sleep, which will give enormous benefits for mental freshness aftwerwards. I identify it when my mind is no longer "driven" by my conscious process but is wandering off, and I am awake and aware of this status.
- sporritt 3y ago
  >I am awake and aware of this status. I really enjoy this state, but I find it hard to keep it going for very long. Pretty soon I think about how great it is that I'm not thinking, and it's all over.
  - galleywest200 3y ago
    Recognizing that you are thinking of nothing and especially being aware that period is now over is forward progress. Keep at it and you will be able to "meditate" much longer.

firecall 3y ago

This would be somewhat like meditation, from how you describe it :-) I’d often sit in my car at lunchtimes and do a guided meditation. It did help during my corporate days.

bowsamic 3y ago

All known evidence points against this

JimDabell 3y ago
I’ve read several articles recently that say the opposite, so I did a quick search and found multiple studies that seem to contradict you almost immediately. For instance: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19379769/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19379769/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29717187/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29717187/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29883710/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29883710/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31852988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31852988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34011516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34011516/ I’m certainly not arguing that the science is settled on this, but it seems far too strong a statement to say that “all known evidence points against this” when I could find several studies supporting OP’s point pretty much instantly.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  No one said that rest does nothing, but rest is still totally different from actual sleep. You aren't getting the benefits of sleep from resting. People here just want to think that it's true, because it sounds convenient
  - pizza 3y ago
    Not sure if it's worth bringing up but I intended for my earlier comment to be about how rest is not awful just because it's not full sleep. Which, somehow, seems to be the opposite of what people think I said. Go figure.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      It's beneficial in a way that is totally orthogonal to the ways in which sleeping is beneficial. If you just try and rest and never sleep, you will have all the negatives of total sleep deprivation

Larrikin 3y ago

After years of being on this site I strongly suspect there is absolutely no correlation between being a good software engineer and being able to extrapolate into other fields without also putting in about the same amount of studying time. A lot of people in our field are extremely logical, but there are so many posts like this where decades of research are ignored from other very smart people in favor of conclusions drawn from thinking "logically" about the problem for ten minutes similar to Aristotle. Every so often someone happens upon a good conclusion, but not usually. There are so many studies, over decades, showing these thoughts to have no grounding.

thatjoeoverthr 3y ago
A lot of words to insult the OP but nothing helpful or clarifying added to the conversation.
- voz_ 3y ago
  The HN way.
  - keithalewis 3y ago
    The Dunning and Krueger approved way.
- davisoneee 3y ago
  I actually find it a helpful reminder. "People spout shit. Don't just blindly trust it". Otherwise, you end up chasing things, thinking they help, when there is little evidence backing it up other than someone's opinion.
- simmerup 3y ago
  But very true regardless. Reading HN for health advice is like talking to your barber about stock options. A way to spend time but not to get information to work off of
  - 3y ago

dan00 3y ago

It was always so draining going for lunch with work colleagues, that couldn't stop talking about work and tried to eat as fast as possible.

hardware2win 3y ago

It doesnt work for me Lying in bed trying to sleep doesnt count as sleep

andy_ppp 3y ago

Huberman is constantly talking about the benefits in the literature of non-sleep deep rest (NSDR) and yoga nidra so I tend to believe the science backs you up too.

mejutoco 3y ago

I read somewhere that growth hormone gets released after a proper nap (not just rest, maybe 30 min or so). Body builders, and actors preparing for roles where they bulk up need to take several naps a day. I don't have a source handy, unfortunately.

offices 3y ago
That sounds like an plausible excuse of two groups who buy HGH

cout 3y ago

As explained to me by a sleep doctor, sometimes people do feel as if they didn't sleep after a nap, but still feel rested. We often don't remember stage 1 or 2 sleep but that doesn't mean we didn't sleep. So yes, a nap is valuable even if you feel you didn't drift off, but it is not necessary to invoke mental energy expenditure as an explanation.

LVB 3y ago

Whether or not this is “backed up by science” (as replies have focused on), my own personal long term experiment says that for me this is absolutely the case. At a certain lull in the day I can either take some time to relax and feel rejuvenated for the remainder, or I can expect to drag throughout. “Loosen the bolts” is an apt metaphor and exactly how I feel.