11 ms·

It goes a lot deeper than this in Miami. A big chunk of suburban miami is populated by white Cuban exiles and their descendants. Growing up we spoke in Spanglis

It goes a lot deeper than this in Miami. A big chunk of suburban miami is populated by white Cuban exiles and their descendants. Growing up we spoke in Spanglish, which involves switching back and forth between English and Spanish, often multiple times within the same sentence. The switch between languages isn’t random, though. There are rules that govern which words you should say in which language, when to switch, etc. I’ve never heard anyone investigating how these rules work, but there are millions of Americans of Cuban descent in Miami for whom Spanglish is their true native language.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
> The switch between languages isn’t random, though We kind of do this already in mainline English, switching between Germanic, French, Latin and Greek based on some unwritten rules. Adding Spanish wouldn’t really change things that much considering its close relatives French and Latin are already so well represented. Though I’m sure the Spanish part is more dominant in this dialect than it would be eventually in the broader language.
- EduardoBautista 3y ago
  Spanglish is not necessarily using English words in Spanish or vice/versa. It's using "troca" ("trucka"?) instead of "camioneta" when referring to "truck". Another example is "parkear" instead of "estacionar" when referring to "parking". This is in the case of the Mexican dialect of Spanglish.
  - idlewords 3y ago
    It's extremely common in every situation like this, the grammar of the original language stays but the lexicon (nouns especially) gets rapidly switched out with borrowings and calques from the surrounding language.
    - rrradical 3y ago
      Oh interesting. Japanese is like this. Many years ago it absorbed Chinese nouns, but more recently it has absorbed many English nouns. Some Americans learning Japanese will regret this last part- wishing that the language stayed “pure”, as if it were ever actually pure, whatever that means.
      - fknorangesite 3y ago
        > Japanese is like this. Every language is like this.
        semi-extrinsic 3y ago
        Except Icelandic.
        arnsholt 3y ago
        Oh, even Icelandic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvítis_fokking_fokk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvítis_fokking_fokk
        eru 3y ago
        Different languages embrace this to different degrees.
        WorldMaker 3y ago
        With modern French the interesting one trying to fight this sort of natural evolution by defering a lot of language changes to their Academy and intentionally replacing calques and borrowings with "corrected" versions. Their Academy isn't always successful in getting French speakers to conform to their "corrected" words, but it is fascinating that they still try.
        biggoodwolf 3y ago
        Similar happens in Spanish, I think just the attempt is valuable in and of itself, if for no other purpose that asking the question, "can we do better?". Otherwise one ends with English and its lowest-common denominator antics
  - muststopmyths 3y ago
    parqueo and parquear are used widely in Central and South America so I am not sure it's fair to call them Spanglish. Provided the term is meant to apply to the Spanish spoken by immigrants and/or border area residents in the US.
    - riffraff 3y ago
      Parcheggio and parcheggiare are used in Italian too, I'm pretty sure they're not derived from English, but from "parco" (park), which has Indo-European roots.
  - ftyers 3y ago
    In Spain at least there is a difference between estacionar (to stop with the engine running) and aparcar (to stop and leave). In Mexico the two things are more or less merged, and if you say estacionar or parquear depends on how much English influence there is on your idiolect... Or how close to the border you are o/~ y sus troconas del año, que afuera tenian parqueadas o/~
    - cfinnberg 3y ago
      Actually "aparcar" and "estacionar" are synonyms (at least in Spain, but I think also in latin America [0]) Maybe you meant "parar" or "detener" (to stop), that don't clarify by them self if the engine has to be stopped or not (usually is the whole sentence what clarifies that) [0]: https://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/aparcarestacionarparquear/ https://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/aparcarestacionarparquea...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  You don't switch between Greek and French while speaking English.
  - babelfish 3y ago
    The doctor performed the Hippocratic Oath on the terrace.
    - asveikau 3y ago
      Imported vocabulary is not code switching.
      - IIAOPSW 3y ago
        Is this gatekeeping?
      - zirgs 3y ago
        What's the difference?
        samtho 3y ago
        Code-switching (linguistically) requires the speaker to be multilingual and it describes the process and patterns used to determine when words are spoken in one language versus the other. Imported vocabulary/borrowed words simply describes loanwords that make it into the common lexicon of speakers of the receiving language but not necessarily speakers of the donor language.
        tchaffee 3y ago
        You're missing the point of how the vocabulary got imported. It was thanks to code switching.
        samtho 3y ago
        I don’t disagree with the idea that code-switchers introduce new vocabulary to the general public at all, in fact, the two terms describe a word or phrase at different phases of its journey to integration within a language. In other words, there exists a point in the history of the language or dialect, the use of word or phrase ceases to be code-switching and becomes widely accepted as imported vocabulary. There is a distinction, however, that not all words that are used via code-switching are going to become part of common enough vernacular that it would become accepted within a language, and likewise, there may be cases where loanwords do not enter a language via speakers that code-switch it into their daily vocabulary.
- hsush 3y ago
  I don't think you're referring to anything remotely approaching bilingual speech. Educated English speakers might use "a priori" or "in vino veritas" or some word in French here in there, but those are tiny changes compared to how spanglish is spoken in Florida and other parts.
idlewords 3y ago
There's a less widespread but similar phenomenon with the older generation of Polish immigrants in Chicago, who use Polish grammar but an almost entirely English lexicon. I've met a few people who I straight up couldn't understand, and I'm bilingual in the two languages they fused together.
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  Is that at all influenced by regional differences in the Poles that came to Chicago? I grew up with a lot of first-gen highlander Polish-Americans (in the Chicago suburbs). They apparently have some differences with earlier important groups, eg, my family friends who pronounce grandmother "Busia".
  - andrewshadura 3y ago
    I'm a Belarusian, and Busia totally makes sense to me (as a simplification of babusia/babula), even though I probably wouldn't use it myself.
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    "important" should be "immigrant" here
  - idlewords 3y ago
    Highlanders have their own dialect, but it's intelligible the same way Londoners can understand Scots. What happens after long exposure to Chicago is that half the lexicon gets swapped out with English words pronounced with Polish phonetics. Those people in their youth spoke very easily understandable Polish, but what they speak today makes sense only to them.
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    Highlanders = górale ?
    - kevinmchugh 3y ago
      I think so? Google suggests that's what I mean? In English - the only language I know - they always said Highlanders. The only other distinguishing piece of information I have is that this was a common car window sticker: https://i.etsystatic.com/16056651/r/il/a2f7e1/2469515581/il_794xN.2469515581_7apx.jpg https://i.etsystatic.com/16056651/r/il/a2f7e1/2469515581/il_...
sportslife 3y ago
Do you have any guesses as to the contours of the rules followed? Maybe family v. friend v. work usage, or such? I've lived most my life in very multi-lingual cities and neighborhoods, and it always struck me how some English very expressive short phrases, eg. "Like, no way", were used in other language conversations. Always thought, it was the relative brevity and ubiquity, in the way "C'est la vie" was for awhile in English.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Watching international versions of Taskmaster - originally a British show, which has now been done in many countries in Europe and elsewhere- it's always been amusing to hear random English phrases get blurted out. Brevity of phrase is part of it, but it doesn't seem to happen in conversational tones- usually either when someone is showing off or as an interjection of sorts.
  - kadoban 3y ago
    What's your favorite versions? I've watched the UK and NZ ones (and I know the US one isn't worth it), but I haven't gotten into the non-English ones yet.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Other than those two, the Australian and Norweigan (Kongen Befaller) are great, though early on in Norway's seasons there'll be a fair number of repeat tasks from the UK version. Same for Denmark (Stormester), perhaps more so. Portugal's is pretty decent, though the format runs two hours per episode. I also thought the Croation version (Direktor Svemira) was decent, though the individual cast members lean hard into their own stereotypes (Lidija as the personification of the male gaze, for example). Sweden's is really popular, but I personally didn't care for it at all. As with the US version, it's probably best to pretend that Spain and Belgium's didn't happen.
      - kadoban 3y ago
        Thanks! I did not even realize there were so many! I imagine it's a popular format due to how well it can go for comparatively little budget and planning. I'll have to track those down. Two hours per episode for Portugal's sounds _wild_, I'm interested to see how that goes.
msla 3y ago
That's called code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching > In linguistics, code-switching or language alternation occurs when a speaker alternates between two or more languages, or language varieties, in the context of a single conversation or situation. Code-switching is different from plurilingualism in that plurilingualism refers to the ability of an individual to use multiple languages,[1] while code-switching is the act of using multiple languages together. The whole rest of the article is the result of linguists studying it.
- Fellshard 3y ago
  That is an entirely different phenomenon.
  - msla 3y ago
    OK, what makes it different?
    - Fellshard 3y ago
      Hmm, looking further. It seems the linguistic phenomenon of code-switching is one accurate name for this, but there's also a sociological phenomenon of code-switching that is related but very different - intentional shifting based on social context or group that you're addressing. Elsewhere in this same thread, someone was assuming the sociological cause for Spanglish, instead of the more organic linguistic cause that happens anywhere you have two cultures and languages in close contact. I suspect this blurred definition makes talking about this more complicated now, since sociological code-switching has become part of America's racialized sociology discussion. If I had my druthers I'd split those two very different phenomena into separate terms, because they don't even produce the same kinds of linguistic patterns. (Thanks for asking me to justify, my assumption was quite wrong regarding the scope of the term.)
      - denton-scratch 3y ago
        > intentional shifting based on social context or group that you're addressing. Isn't that register-switching? It gets confusing in English, because the classier registers in English involves the use of more words of French, Latin or Greek origin, the less-classy registers rely more on anglo-saxon words.
lynguist 3y ago
Like Surzhyk in Ukraine! Mixed Ukrainian/Russian that is the true mother tongue for many Ukrainians! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
- type0 3y ago
  Not quite, English and Spanish are just too dissimilar. Surzhyk is like Portuñol and it's different in different places https://multilingual.com/articles/portunol-blending-spanish-and-portuguese/ https://multilingual.com/articles/portunol-blending-spanish-...
zvmaz 3y ago
I grew up with French and Kabyle [1] and to this day we speak a mixture of both. And it comes very naturally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language
- fathyb 3y ago
  My favorite Algerian loanword is "mickeyettes" for "cartoons" which comes from Mickey Mouse.
auxym 3y ago
Sounds similar to the "frenglish" that is often heard in Montreal.
- fathyb 3y ago
  I like that english idioms translated literally make sense in Québec, such as "ça fait du sens" for "it makes sense". I realized this specific one is a bit controversial while searching for it, here is something I found on the website of the Government of Canada about it: https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc.ca/fr/chroniques-de-langue/mots-de-tete-faire-du-sens https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc.ca/fr/chroniques-de-l...
kcplate 3y ago
What I find really interesting perhaps more than even Spanglish or this new dialect, is that back in 2006-2007 I did a lot of business trips to Miami and found it wild that many non-Spanish speakers (only English speakers) spoke English with a detectable Spanish accent. I think it makes perfect sense on reflection, but was eyebrow raising for me.
- Arn_Thor 3y ago
  There was a video I saw of an American with a burger shop in Tokyo. He had adopted something of a vaguely Japanese-sounding accent. I think it just happens to some people
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    I’ve seen that one as well! Interesting video for sure. I was also surprised to hear him say he did not speak Japanese despite living there for 20 years and being married to a Japanese woman.
  - tjpnz 3y ago
    I've always wondered how that happens. Having lived in Japan for eight years my accent has become more neutral, but that's about it.
  - mabbo 3y ago
    My sister, a Canadian, has lived in England a decade now. The locals can't hear it, but I can hear her accent and how she generally speaks has changed quite a bit. She can hear it and knows it but can't help it at all.
    - BoxOfRain 3y ago
      I've lived in England all my life aside from several years in Wales and it's interesting how contrived the accent a lot of foreigners associate with us actually is. There's a lot of natural variation in our accents (they can change from town to town over the course of a dozen miles in extreme cases) but RP, 'posh English' or 'BBC English' was a product of 20th century radio broadcasting based on the natural accent of the south-eastern upper classes and somewhat controversially declared to be the standard pronunciation for British English. The result of this is that a few of my friends and I have very similar sounding accents despite our families being from other ends of the country and having very different 'default' accents; it's entirely down to our respective mothers telling us to 'speak properly' every time we'd drop our Ts or show other 'common' habits of speech as kids!
eru 3y ago
Interesting! Post-Norman-invasion English more-or-less came from a such a hybrid that switched multiple times per sentence between bastardised French and older English.
- imbnwa 3y ago
  Isn't it more like Old Norse and Old English, re: the number of basic English words that come from Old Norse[0]? The Norman influence appears to largely influence abstract domains like law, governance, and academia with the exception of the well-known culinary distinctions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Old_Norse_origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Old_N...
  - masklinn 3y ago
    At its largest extent the Danelaw covered only about half of england, and it lasted around a century before the Kingdom of Wessex conquered first the other remaining Anglo-saxon kingdoms, then retook the Danelaw, and created a unified Kingdom of England.
  - ycombinete 3y ago
    No, the Norse influence is small relative to Norman. Something like 30% of modern English is Norman-French derived, with thousands of direct cognates. History is rarely simple though! The Normans themselves were a hybrid of Viking settlers and locals. So it's likely that quite a few of those French words we absorbed into English have Old Norse roots.
    - OnlyMortal 3y ago
      There’s plenty of old Norse in use for places in Yorkshire. The dialect has words too such as, “ta” (thanks). It’s similar to the Danish word, “tak”.
deleted 3y ago
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emodendroket 3y ago
Based on the fact that some analysis of this appeared in my undergrad Spanish courses I feel confident saying that there must be a good amount of academic literature exploring these and many other topics with Spanglish.
ambyra 3y ago
Ye I was just thinking this new dialect sounds like Spanglish transliterated into English.
IIAOPSW 3y ago
Sounds like a standard Creole language. I know that phenomena related to merging languages of populations in contact are well studied, but don't know enough to link to any relevant lit. sorry.
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  I think Creole is different, in the sense that there is emergent grammar as well. While spanglish uses a combination of English & Spanish grammar, and is more close to a mixed language
- afiori 3y ago
  EDIT: This comment has significant inaccuracies. Creole languages are more about "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language", spanglish sound more like "20k bilinguals with varying preference between the 2 languages mix and match the 2 languages for convenience". This assuming that most spanglish speakers could hold a conversation in either languages.
  - hervature 3y ago
    > "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language" If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. Creole is what you get when two groups of people with no bilingual speakers are forced to interact and develop a new language. Normally, it starts as a pidgin to facilitate trade but then develops into a full fledged language. The main difference with Spanglish being that the speakers often know both languages to a modest degree but probably would not be considered native by other native speakers. Also, there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC. 20k makes it sound like some cute phenomena happening in Little Havana in Miami.
    - afiori 3y ago
      > Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. I agree, I was misremembering. After a quick refresher I agree that spanglish fits the Creole definition much better than I initially considered. > there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC Not all 1M people interact with each other, I was talking about the overlapping sets of social circles areound people, not the total count.
throwaway81523 3y ago
> There are rules that govern which words you should say in which language, when to switch, etc. I’ve never heard anyone investigating how these rules work, That phenomenon in general is well studied: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching
- OJFord 3y ago
  Code-switching is not the same as 'Spanglish', 'Hinglish', etc. - the latter could be something you code-switch to with certain people (young peers say). GP means rules, a grammar of sorts, for which words are English and which words are Spanish in the same sentence. Switching without pause, talking to the same person in the same setting.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    I think "translanguaging" might be the better place to start reading about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translanguaging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translanguaging
  - travisjungroth 3y ago
    The linked article is exactly what you’re describing. It’s linguistic code switching and covers Spanglish. It predates the more modern, broader use of the term, like having a work accent and home accent.
wrp 3y ago
Need to clarify the difference between "pidgin" and "creole" here. A pidgin is a (relatively simple) language that develops for communication between two or more speech communities. A pidgin is considered to have become a creole when it has become the mother tongue of a new generation of children. I don't think the blended languages like Spanglish and Hinglish are considered pidgins or creoles within linguistics, but I could see room for argument on that.
- wrp 3y ago
  I struggle to imagine how this could be a controversial issue. It is just a clarification of the terminology used in linguistics, not a judgement of anyone's culture.
foldr 3y ago
>I’ve never heard anyone investigating how these rules work, There are studies of this. It's best to search in Google scholar to filter out (some of) the crap: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Miami+%2Bspanglish+syntax+&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Miam... The majority of the work focuses on sociolinguistic aspects of Spanglish, but there are also grammatical investigations. Here's an example dissertation that cites some other studies along the same lines: https://digitalcommons.spu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&=&context=honorsprojects&=&sei-redir=1&referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%253Fstart%253D10%2526q%253DMiami%252B%25252Bspanglish%252Bsyntax%252B%2526hl%253Den%2526as_sdt%253D0%252C5#search=%22Miami%20%2Bspanglish%20syntax%22 https://digitalcommons.spu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
HL33tibCe7 3y ago
This is called a creole (or actually perhaps in this case a mixed language is a more accurate description - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_language)

pfannkuchen 3y ago

> The switch between languages isn’t random, though We kind of do this already in mainline English, switching between Germanic, French, Latin and Greek based on some unwritten rules. Adding Spanish wouldn’t really change things that much considering its close relatives French and Latin are already so well represented. Though I’m sure the Spanish part is more dominant in this dialect than it would be eventually in the broader language.

EduardoBautista 3y ago
Spanglish is not necessarily using English words in Spanish or vice/versa. It's using "troca" ("trucka"?) instead of "camioneta" when referring to "truck". Another example is "parkear" instead of "estacionar" when referring to "parking". This is in the case of the Mexican dialect of Spanglish.
- idlewords 3y ago
  It's extremely common in every situation like this, the grammar of the original language stays but the lexicon (nouns especially) gets rapidly switched out with borrowings and calques from the surrounding language.
  - rrradical 3y ago
    Oh interesting. Japanese is like this. Many years ago it absorbed Chinese nouns, but more recently it has absorbed many English nouns. Some Americans learning Japanese will regret this last part- wishing that the language stayed “pure”, as if it were ever actually pure, whatever that means.
    - fknorangesite 3y ago
      > Japanese is like this. Every language is like this.
      - semi-extrinsic 3y ago
        Except Icelandic.
        arnsholt 3y ago
        Oh, even Icelandic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvítis_fokking_fokk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvítis_fokking_fokk
      - eru 3y ago
        Different languages embrace this to different degrees.
        WorldMaker 3y ago
        With modern French the interesting one trying to fight this sort of natural evolution by defering a lot of language changes to their Academy and intentionally replacing calques and borrowings with "corrected" versions. Their Academy isn't always successful in getting French speakers to conform to their "corrected" words, but it is fascinating that they still try.
        biggoodwolf 3y ago
        Similar happens in Spanish, I think just the attempt is valuable in and of itself, if for no other purpose that asking the question, "can we do better?". Otherwise one ends with English and its lowest-common denominator antics
- muststopmyths 3y ago
  parqueo and parquear are used widely in Central and South America so I am not sure it's fair to call them Spanglish. Provided the term is meant to apply to the Spanish spoken by immigrants and/or border area residents in the US.
  - riffraff 3y ago
    Parcheggio and parcheggiare are used in Italian too, I'm pretty sure they're not derived from English, but from "parco" (park), which has Indo-European roots.
- ftyers 3y ago
  In Spain at least there is a difference between estacionar (to stop with the engine running) and aparcar (to stop and leave). In Mexico the two things are more or less merged, and if you say estacionar or parquear depends on how much English influence there is on your idiolect... Or how close to the border you are o/~ y sus troconas del año, que afuera tenian parqueadas o/~
  - cfinnberg 3y ago
    Actually "aparcar" and "estacionar" are synonyms (at least in Spain, but I think also in latin America [0]) Maybe you meant "parar" or "detener" (to stop), that don't clarify by them self if the engine has to be stopped or not (usually is the whole sentence what clarifies that) [0]: https://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/aparcarestacionarparquear/ https://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/aparcarestacionarparquea...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
cool_dude85 3y ago
You don't switch between Greek and French while speaking English.
- babelfish 3y ago
  The doctor performed the Hippocratic Oath on the terrace.
  - asveikau 3y ago
    Imported vocabulary is not code switching.
    - IIAOPSW 3y ago
      Is this gatekeeping?
    - zirgs 3y ago
      What's the difference?
      - samtho 3y ago
        Code-switching (linguistically) requires the speaker to be multilingual and it describes the process and patterns used to determine when words are spoken in one language versus the other. Imported vocabulary/borrowed words simply describes loanwords that make it into the common lexicon of speakers of the receiving language but not necessarily speakers of the donor language.
        tchaffee 3y ago
        You're missing the point of how the vocabulary got imported. It was thanks to code switching.
        samtho 3y ago
        I don’t disagree with the idea that code-switchers introduce new vocabulary to the general public at all, in fact, the two terms describe a word or phrase at different phases of its journey to integration within a language. In other words, there exists a point in the history of the language or dialect, the use of word or phrase ceases to be code-switching and becomes widely accepted as imported vocabulary. There is a distinction, however, that not all words that are used via code-switching are going to become part of common enough vernacular that it would become accepted within a language, and likewise, there may be cases where loanwords do not enter a language via speakers that code-switch it into their daily vocabulary.
hsush 3y ago
I don't think you're referring to anything remotely approaching bilingual speech. Educated English speakers might use "a priori" or "in vino veritas" or some word in French here in there, but those are tiny changes compared to how spanglish is spoken in Florida and other parts.

idlewords 3y ago

There's a less widespread but similar phenomenon with the older generation of Polish immigrants in Chicago, who use Polish grammar but an almost entirely English lexicon. I've met a few people who I straight up couldn't understand, and I'm bilingual in the two languages they fused together.

kevinmchugh 3y ago
Is that at all influenced by regional differences in the Poles that came to Chicago? I grew up with a lot of first-gen highlander Polish-Americans (in the Chicago suburbs). They apparently have some differences with earlier important groups, eg, my family friends who pronounce grandmother "Busia".
- andrewshadura 3y ago
  I'm a Belarusian, and Busia totally makes sense to me (as a simplification of babusia/babula), even though I probably wouldn't use it myself.
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  "important" should be "immigrant" here
- idlewords 3y ago
  Highlanders have their own dialect, but it's intelligible the same way Londoners can understand Scots. What happens after long exposure to Chicago is that half the lexicon gets swapped out with English words pronounced with Polish phonetics. Those people in their youth spoke very easily understandable Polish, but what they speak today makes sense only to them.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  Highlanders = górale ?
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    I think so? Google suggests that's what I mean? In English - the only language I know - they always said Highlanders. The only other distinguishing piece of information I have is that this was a common car window sticker: https://i.etsystatic.com/16056651/r/il/a2f7e1/2469515581/il_794xN.2469515581_7apx.jpg https://i.etsystatic.com/16056651/r/il/a2f7e1/2469515581/il_...

sportslife 3y ago

Do you have any guesses as to the contours of the rules followed? Maybe family v. friend v. work usage, or such? I've lived most my life in very multi-lingual cities and neighborhoods, and it always struck me how some English very expressive short phrases, eg. "Like, no way", were used in other language conversations. Always thought, it was the relative brevity and ubiquity, in the way "C'est la vie" was for awhile in English.

zdragnar 3y ago
Watching international versions of Taskmaster - originally a British show, which has now been done in many countries in Europe and elsewhere- it's always been amusing to hear random English phrases get blurted out. Brevity of phrase is part of it, but it doesn't seem to happen in conversational tones- usually either when someone is showing off or as an interjection of sorts.
- kadoban 3y ago
  What's your favorite versions? I've watched the UK and NZ ones (and I know the US one isn't worth it), but I haven't gotten into the non-English ones yet.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Other than those two, the Australian and Norweigan (Kongen Befaller) are great, though early on in Norway's seasons there'll be a fair number of repeat tasks from the UK version. Same for Denmark (Stormester), perhaps more so. Portugal's is pretty decent, though the format runs two hours per episode. I also thought the Croation version (Direktor Svemira) was decent, though the individual cast members lean hard into their own stereotypes (Lidija as the personification of the male gaze, for example). Sweden's is really popular, but I personally didn't care for it at all. As with the US version, it's probably best to pretend that Spain and Belgium's didn't happen.
    - kadoban 3y ago
      Thanks! I did not even realize there were so many! I imagine it's a popular format due to how well it can go for comparatively little budget and planning. I'll have to track those down. Two hours per episode for Portugal's sounds _wild_, I'm interested to see how that goes.

msla 3y ago

That's called code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching > In linguistics, code-switching or language alternation occurs when a speaker alternates between two or more languages, or language varieties, in the context of a single conversation or situation. Code-switching is different from plurilingualism in that plurilingualism refers to the ability of an individual to use multiple languages,[1] while code-switching is the act of using multiple languages together. The whole rest of the article is the result of linguists studying it.

Fellshard 3y ago
That is an entirely different phenomenon.
- msla 3y ago
  OK, what makes it different?
  - Fellshard 3y ago
    Hmm, looking further. It seems the linguistic phenomenon of code-switching is one accurate name for this, but there's also a sociological phenomenon of code-switching that is related but very different - intentional shifting based on social context or group that you're addressing. Elsewhere in this same thread, someone was assuming the sociological cause for Spanglish, instead of the more organic linguistic cause that happens anywhere you have two cultures and languages in close contact. I suspect this blurred definition makes talking about this more complicated now, since sociological code-switching has become part of America's racialized sociology discussion. If I had my druthers I'd split those two very different phenomena into separate terms, because they don't even produce the same kinds of linguistic patterns. (Thanks for asking me to justify, my assumption was quite wrong regarding the scope of the term.)
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      > intentional shifting based on social context or group that you're addressing. Isn't that register-switching? It gets confusing in English, because the classier registers in English involves the use of more words of French, Latin or Greek origin, the less-classy registers rely more on anglo-saxon words.

lynguist 3y ago

Like Surzhyk in Ukraine! Mixed Ukrainian/Russian that is the true mother tongue for many Ukrainians! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk

type0 3y ago
Not quite, English and Spanish are just too dissimilar. Surzhyk is like Portuñol and it's different in different places https://multilingual.com/articles/portunol-blending-spanish-and-portuguese/ https://multilingual.com/articles/portunol-blending-spanish-...

zvmaz 3y ago

I grew up with French and Kabyle [1] and to this day we speak a mixture of both. And it comes very naturally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language

fathyb 3y ago
My favorite Algerian loanword is "mickeyettes" for "cartoons" which comes from Mickey Mouse.

auxym 3y ago

Sounds similar to the "frenglish" that is often heard in Montreal.

fathyb 3y ago
I like that english idioms translated literally make sense in Québec, such as "ça fait du sens" for "it makes sense". I realized this specific one is a bit controversial while searching for it, here is something I found on the website of the Government of Canada about it: https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc.ca/fr/chroniques-de-langue/mots-de-tete-faire-du-sens https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc.ca/fr/chroniques-de-l...

kcplate 3y ago

What I find really interesting perhaps more than even Spanglish or this new dialect, is that back in 2006-2007 I did a lot of business trips to Miami and found it wild that many non-Spanish speakers (only English speakers) spoke English with a detectable Spanish accent. I think it makes perfect sense on reflection, but was eyebrow raising for me.

Arn_Thor 3y ago
There was a video I saw of an American with a burger shop in Tokyo. He had adopted something of a vaguely Japanese-sounding accent. I think it just happens to some people
- yurishimo 3y ago
  I’ve seen that one as well! Interesting video for sure. I was also surprised to hear him say he did not speak Japanese despite living there for 20 years and being married to a Japanese woman.
- tjpnz 3y ago
  I've always wondered how that happens. Having lived in Japan for eight years my accent has become more neutral, but that's about it.
- mabbo 3y ago
  My sister, a Canadian, has lived in England a decade now. The locals can't hear it, but I can hear her accent and how she generally speaks has changed quite a bit. She can hear it and knows it but can't help it at all.
  - BoxOfRain 3y ago
    I've lived in England all my life aside from several years in Wales and it's interesting how contrived the accent a lot of foreigners associate with us actually is. There's a lot of natural variation in our accents (they can change from town to town over the course of a dozen miles in extreme cases) but RP, 'posh English' or 'BBC English' was a product of 20th century radio broadcasting based on the natural accent of the south-eastern upper classes and somewhat controversially declared to be the standard pronunciation for British English. The result of this is that a few of my friends and I have very similar sounding accents despite our families being from other ends of the country and having very different 'default' accents; it's entirely down to our respective mothers telling us to 'speak properly' every time we'd drop our Ts or show other 'common' habits of speech as kids!

eru 3y ago

Interesting! Post-Norman-invasion English more-or-less came from a such a hybrid that switched multiple times per sentence between bastardised French and older English.

imbnwa 3y ago
Isn't it more like Old Norse and Old English, re: the number of basic English words that come from Old Norse[0]? The Norman influence appears to largely influence abstract domains like law, governance, and academia with the exception of the well-known culinary distinctions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Old_Norse_origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Old_N...
- masklinn 3y ago
  At its largest extent the Danelaw covered only about half of england, and it lasted around a century before the Kingdom of Wessex conquered first the other remaining Anglo-saxon kingdoms, then retook the Danelaw, and created a unified Kingdom of England.
- ycombinete 3y ago
  No, the Norse influence is small relative to Norman. Something like 30% of modern English is Norman-French derived, with thousands of direct cognates. History is rarely simple though! The Normans themselves were a hybrid of Viking settlers and locals. So it's likely that quite a few of those French words we absorbed into English have Old Norse roots.
  - OnlyMortal 3y ago
    There’s plenty of old Norse in use for places in Yorkshire. The dialect has words too such as, “ta” (thanks). It’s similar to the Danish word, “tak”.

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emodendroket 3y ago

Based on the fact that some analysis of this appeared in my undergrad Spanish courses I feel confident saying that there must be a good amount of academic literature exploring these and many other topics with Spanglish.

ambyra 3y ago

Ye I was just thinking this new dialect sounds like Spanglish transliterated into English.

IIAOPSW 3y ago

Sounds like a standard Creole language. I know that phenomena related to merging languages of populations in contact are well studied, but don't know enough to link to any relevant lit. sorry.

4gotunameagain 3y ago
I think Creole is different, in the sense that there is emergent grammar as well. While spanglish uses a combination of English & Spanish grammar, and is more close to a mixed language
afiori 3y ago
EDIT: This comment has significant inaccuracies. Creole languages are more about "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language", spanglish sound more like "20k bilinguals with varying preference between the 2 languages mix and match the 2 languages for convenience". This assuming that most spanglish speakers could hold a conversation in either languages.
- hervature 3y ago
  > "20 people speaking 20 different languages create a new common merged language" If you can provide an example of such a diverse set of languages becoming a new language, that would be interesting. Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. Creole is what you get when two groups of people with no bilingual speakers are forced to interact and develop a new language. Normally, it starts as a pidgin to facilitate trade but then develops into a full fledged language. The main difference with Spanglish being that the speakers often know both languages to a modest degree but probably would not be considered native by other native speakers. Also, there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC. 20k makes it sound like some cute phenomena happening in Little Havana in Miami.
  - afiori 3y ago
    > Creole has nothing to do with the number of languages. I agree, I was misremembering. After a quick refresher I agree that spanglish fits the Creole definition much better than I initially considered. > there are almost 1M Dominicans alone in NYC Not all 1M people interact with each other, I was talking about the overlapping sets of social circles areound people, not the total count.

throwaway81523 3y ago

> There are rules that govern which words you should say in which language, when to switch, etc. I’ve never heard anyone investigating how these rules work, That phenomenon in general is well studied: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching

OJFord 3y ago
Code-switching is not the same as 'Spanglish', 'Hinglish', etc. - the latter could be something you code-switch to with certain people (young peers say). GP means rules, a grammar of sorts, for which words are English and which words are Spanish in the same sentence. Switching without pause, talking to the same person in the same setting.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  I think "translanguaging" might be the better place to start reading about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translanguaging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translanguaging
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  The linked article is exactly what you’re describing. It’s linguistic code switching and covers Spanglish. It predates the more modern, broader use of the term, like having a work accent and home accent.

wrp 3y ago

Need to clarify the difference between "pidgin" and "creole" here. A pidgin is a (relatively simple) language that develops for communication between two or more speech communities. A pidgin is considered to have become a creole when it has become the mother tongue of a new generation of children. I don't think the blended languages like Spanglish and Hinglish are considered pidgins or creoles within linguistics, but I could see room for argument on that.

wrp 3y ago
I struggle to imagine how this could be a controversial issue. It is just a clarification of the terminology used in linguistics, not a judgement of anyone's culture.

foldr 3y ago

>I’ve never heard anyone investigating how these rules work, There are studies of this. It's best to search in Google scholar to filter out (some of) the crap: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Miami+%2Bspanglish+syntax+&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Miam... The majority of the work focuses on sociolinguistic aspects of Spanglish, but there are also grammatical investigations. Here's an example dissertation that cites some other studies along the same lines: https://digitalcommons.spu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&=&context=honorsprojects&=&sei-redir=1&referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%253Fstart%253D10%2526q%253DMiami%252B%25252Bspanglish%252Bsyntax%252B%2526hl%253Den%2526as_sdt%253D0%252C5#search=%22Miami%20%2Bspanglish%20syntax%22 https://digitalcommons.spu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...

HL33tibCe7 3y ago

This is called a creole (or actually perhaps in this case a mixed language is a more accurate description - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_language)