4 ms·

I wonder what the consensus view on trying to use exogenous testosterone for gaining muscle mass, I always thought it was somewhat risky.

by Vecr 3y ago

Solvency 3y ago
Well there's a major difference between TRT and anabolic steroids. Everyone knows the latter is no bueno (for longevity and overall health). The verdict doesn't seem quite so resolved yet on TRT. Literally everything in the world has side effects, though. The men on TRT are likely OK with those (at least until they encounter them...then we'll see what happens a few generations in.) Also this study means nothing to me. They're looking at a few overall risk factors. There are potentially thousands of factors to consider, all interrelated and deeply codependent. Such is human biology. Science at large still doesn't truly know how hormones work and interact in their totality within the human body. Meanwhile, many cardiologists and doctors still buy into the saturated fat myth and myopic "all cholesterol is bad and will lead to heart problems" myth perpetuated by the sugar industry decades ago. So I'm not taking anyone's word yet on any of this. Ironically, bodybuilders tend to be an amazing source of bleeding edge anecdata on all of this stuff.
adrr 3y ago
Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose.
- treeman79 3y ago
  It’s not much fun. Get a shot. First couple of days. I FEEL AMAZING! I WANT TO PUNCH EVERYONE! Then you’re good for a couple days. Then your dragging worse then ever. Repeat every week. Cream for skin is same thing but over the course of a day. Plus it’s crazy expensive. Eventually decide it’s not worth it and start finding out why levels are low and try and fix underlying causes.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - indecisive_user 3y ago
    You can get shorter acting esters that are injected every day or 3 days. That would make blood serum levels much more consistent
  - adrr 3y ago
    Fixing your underlying issues is a better fix. Losing weight and leading a more healthy lifestyle will improve your levels. You can also inject every other day subcutaneously. You won’t spike your estrogen due to the more consistent levels.
  - PragmaticPulp 3y ago
    > It’s not much fun. TRT forums are kind of fascinating because they're full of people who though (or, sadly, were convinced by TRT clinics) that TRT was going to be amazing, solve all of their problems, and make them feel like 20 year olds again. Then the realities of getting your hormones from imperfect exogenous sources and dealing with all of the imperfect complications thereof set in. A lot of disappointed stories from people who feel marginally better but thought it was going to cure every struggle in their lives. Unfortunately, a lot of people with depression issues also end up in TRT clinics because hypogonadism is a more palatable diagnosis than mental health issues for many.
  - mikebenfield 3y ago
    Unless you’re on some crazy fast ester, that should not happen at all. The injection forms a depot in your muscle that gradually puts testosterone into your bloodstream. Your actual blood testosterone levels should not vary dramatically from day to day with regular injections
    - adrr 3y ago
      weekly injections is still very spikey in terms a levels. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacokinetics-of-testosterone-enanthate-after-injection-of-250-mg_fig6_264848721 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacoki...
- solumunus 3y ago
  Not quite true. As a natural your levels fluctuate massively throughout the day. Drink alcohol? Levels will go down. Bad sleep? Levels will go down. Sick? Levels will go down. Low body fat %? Levels will go down. When you’re on TRT you have consistent levels 24/7 no matter what environmental conditions are present. This has a significant effect. You will absolutely be able to more easily build and maintain a good physique on TRT.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  Getting into normal ranges can help muscle growth if you’re very low initially. Not bodybuilder levels but a better healthy baseline
- leroy_masochist 3y ago
  > Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose. Your math is way off. A TRT dose of testosterone is going to be something like 70-125mg/week. A bodybuilding dose is going to be ~250-350mg/week (often used in conjunction with other compounds like Deca-Durabolin, Trenbolone, Primobolan, Anavar, etc). An extremely aggressive bodybuilding regimen for a highly experienced anabolic steroid user is rarely going to clear 10x the total milligrams of all AAS compounds injected/ingested when compared to low-dose TRT. Also, in any human regardless of age and sex, adding a typical TRT dose of testosterone to your system is definitely going to add immediate and noticeable muscle mass.
PragmaticPulp 3y ago
Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it. A lot of people will try to tell you it can be avoided with the right combination of SERMs and HCG, but there are a lot of people who thought they were doing the exact “right” protocols who end up on TRT because their testicles were permanently atrophied. It’s one of those topics where everybody thinks they’re the exception who will avoid the consequences, but do it long enough and it will happen. There are also a lot of secondary effects that people underestimate. For example, the extra testosterone (beyond normal levels) will result in excess estrogen, which can grow excess breast tissue in males. There are medications that can interrupt this process, but getting the dosage right is difficult and many people fluctuate around ideal values. Fluctuation and low estrogen values will cause significant mental health effects. Again, these are theoretical avoidable under perfect conditions yet almost everyone ends up with some of it eventually. I had a friend who tried using testosterone all the “right” ways with excessive lab tests, HCG, cycling, SERMs, AIs, and everything else. It still ended up destabilizing his mental health and making him prone to anger and bouts of sadness/crying. He denied it for a long time because he thought it couldn’t possibly be his by-the-book protocol, but eventually we got him to admit it was a problem. Denial runs deep. Basically: Don’t go down this path unless you accept that it’s going to have significant downsides and consequences, many of which are long lasting or permanent. And definitely don’t dabble in taking testosterone or steroids as an early step in a weightlifting career or as a trial to see if it gives you a boost. The consequences can/will be permanent for the rest of your life.
- User23 3y ago
  > Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it Can, not will. You're right though to point out that the body loves homeostasis and will downregulate endogenous testosterone production if serum levels are high from supplementation. Testicular atrophy from extended use is a real potential problem. Unfortunately, TRT clinics are like the Internet Viagra doctors: they are drug dealers with an MD. If you have low testosterone then see an endocrinologist or a urologist for treatment. There are certainly cases where exogenous testosterone injections are indicated, but depending on the kind of hypogonadism in question there can be better alternatives that don't involve injections or infertility. It's worth noting that the secular testosterone decline is not a "new normal," but rather basically every man in the West is suffering from some kind of hypogonadism. We can speculate about the causes, but the precipitous drops in average population serum testosterone levels measured over the past decades is anything but natural or normal. > many of which are long lasting or permanent True, but not all of the permanent effects are negative. Exogenous testosterone causes muscle cell nuclei to multiply, and there is a permanent anabolic effect as a result. It's nowhere near as dramatic as being on exogenous androgens, but it's still significant.
MagicMoonlight 3y ago
It works. Every single athlete you have ever seen is on it. Any woman you see in a bodybuilding competition is on it (no a woman doesn’t have 2% bodyfat and 18 inch arms naturally). Every single celebrity is on it. No, Zac Efron doesn’t naturally have 20 inch arms. It’s difficult to quantify risk because the people who die are always celebrity coke heads. They tend to die during binge sessions where they’ve slammed 5g of cocaine and had 12 shots. Steroids increase BP so you need to manage that and you can’t be doing things like cocaine or drinking. The more you take, the worse your BP. That and the cocaine will be the killer. I’m yet to see anything obviously harmful about testosterone. Some of the drugs that have branched off it have signs of harm but that might be due to increased strength or changed structure. People are talking about your penis shrinking or whatever. Your testes do shrink but it’s not permanent. You need to make sure all traces of the drugs are out of your body before the system will start back up and that’s where people get stuck. Some drugs have metabolites that can last years. Testosterone isn’t the same but still takes time depending on the half life of the form. Ironically women have the easiest time of it. Their hormone system doesn’t care about testosterone so they can go on and off whenever they want. The downside for women is the androgenisation. They start growing facial hair, deepening their voice and enlarging their clit. That’s a dealbreaker for most women for obvious reasons so a woman would need to be seriously committed to this. For men, having a thicker beard and masculine features is a good thing so that’s fine. It will accelerate your rate of hair loss though. It affects your personality. You are happier, braver, more focused and more aggressive. You feel like the leader of the pack no matter how pathetic you are. That confidence might be good or bad for you. You’ll be a lot more likely to approach women because you are continously aroused. You may be more of a cunt. In summary, like all things it is a trade-off. You might die, but you’ll be the best you could ever be at physical sport. If you don’t care about sport then that’s not a great trade. Some people do drugs at weekends and kill themselves for parties. Lots of people make trades. This isn’t a casual trade to make, you need to think it through.
- solumunus 3y ago
  The confidence thing is way overblown, very few people actually report that. The myth is perpetuated exclusively by people who have never taken steroids. Personally I feel exactly the same on almost any compound, the exception being tren which made me incredibly irritable. When I first tried them I thought I’d been sold fake gear because there was literally no difference in feeling compared to being natural. After being in the community for half a decade I can tell you that this is an extremely common experience.

I wonder what the consensus view on trying to use exogenous testosterone for gaining muscle mass, I always thought it was somewhat risky.

by Vecr 3y ago

I wonder what the consensus view on trying to use exogenous testosterone for gaining muscle mass, I always thought it was somewhat risky.

Solvency 3y ago

Well there's a major difference between TRT and anabolic steroids. Everyone knows the latter is no bueno (for longevity and overall health). The verdict doesn't seem quite so resolved yet on TRT. Literally everything in the world has side effects, though. The men on TRT are likely OK with those (at least until they encounter them...then we'll see what happens a few generations in.) Also this study means nothing to me. They're looking at a few overall risk factors. There are potentially thousands of factors to consider, all interrelated and deeply codependent. Such is human biology. Science at large still doesn't truly know how hormones work and interact in their totality within the human body. Meanwhile, many cardiologists and doctors still buy into the saturated fat myth and myopic "all cholesterol is bad and will lead to heart problems" myth perpetuated by the sugar industry decades ago. So I'm not taking anyone's word yet on any of this. Ironically, bodybuilders tend to be an amazing source of bleeding edge anecdata on all of this stuff.

adrr 3y ago

Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose.

treeman79 3y ago
It’s not much fun. Get a shot. First couple of days. I FEEL AMAZING! I WANT TO PUNCH EVERYONE! Then you’re good for a couple days. Then your dragging worse then ever. Repeat every week. Cream for skin is same thing but over the course of a day. Plus it’s crazy expensive. Eventually decide it’s not worth it and start finding out why levels are low and try and fix underlying causes.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- indecisive_user 3y ago
  You can get shorter acting esters that are injected every day or 3 days. That would make blood serum levels much more consistent
- adrr 3y ago
  Fixing your underlying issues is a better fix. Losing weight and leading a more healthy lifestyle will improve your levels. You can also inject every other day subcutaneously. You won’t spike your estrogen due to the more consistent levels.
- PragmaticPulp 3y ago
  > It’s not much fun. TRT forums are kind of fascinating because they're full of people who though (or, sadly, were convinced by TRT clinics) that TRT was going to be amazing, solve all of their problems, and make them feel like 20 year olds again. Then the realities of getting your hormones from imperfect exogenous sources and dealing with all of the imperfect complications thereof set in. A lot of disappointed stories from people who feel marginally better but thought it was going to cure every struggle in their lives. Unfortunately, a lot of people with depression issues also end up in TRT clinics because hypogonadism is a more palatable diagnosis than mental health issues for many.
- mikebenfield 3y ago
  Unless you’re on some crazy fast ester, that should not happen at all. The injection forms a depot in your muscle that gradually puts testosterone into your bloodstream. Your actual blood testosterone levels should not vary dramatically from day to day with regular injections
  - adrr 3y ago
    weekly injections is still very spikey in terms a levels. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacokinetics-of-testosterone-enanthate-after-injection-of-250-mg_fig6_264848721 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacoki...
solumunus 3y ago
Not quite true. As a natural your levels fluctuate massively throughout the day. Drink alcohol? Levels will go down. Bad sleep? Levels will go down. Sick? Levels will go down. Low body fat %? Levels will go down. When you’re on TRT you have consistent levels 24/7 no matter what environmental conditions are present. This has a significant effect. You will absolutely be able to more easily build and maintain a good physique on TRT.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
Getting into normal ranges can help muscle growth if you’re very low initially. Not bodybuilder levels but a better healthy baseline
leroy_masochist 3y ago
> Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose. Your math is way off. A TRT dose of testosterone is going to be something like 70-125mg/week. A bodybuilding dose is going to be ~250-350mg/week (often used in conjunction with other compounds like Deca-Durabolin, Trenbolone, Primobolan, Anavar, etc). An extremely aggressive bodybuilding regimen for a highly experienced anabolic steroid user is rarely going to clear 10x the total milligrams of all AAS compounds injected/ingested when compared to low-dose TRT. Also, in any human regardless of age and sex, adding a typical TRT dose of testosterone to your system is definitely going to add immediate and noticeable muscle mass.

PragmaticPulp 3y ago

Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it. A lot of people will try to tell you it can be avoided with the right combination of SERMs and HCG, but there are a lot of people who thought they were doing the exact “right” protocols who end up on TRT because their testicles were permanently atrophied. It’s one of those topics where everybody thinks they’re the exception who will avoid the consequences, but do it long enough and it will happen. There are also a lot of secondary effects that people underestimate. For example, the extra testosterone (beyond normal levels) will result in excess estrogen, which can grow excess breast tissue in males. There are medications that can interrupt this process, but getting the dosage right is difficult and many people fluctuate around ideal values. Fluctuation and low estrogen values will cause significant mental health effects. Again, these are theoretical avoidable under perfect conditions yet almost everyone ends up with some of it eventually. I had a friend who tried using testosterone all the “right” ways with excessive lab tests, HCG, cycling, SERMs, AIs, and everything else. It still ended up destabilizing his mental health and making him prone to anger and bouts of sadness/crying. He denied it for a long time because he thought it couldn’t possibly be his by-the-book protocol, but eventually we got him to admit it was a problem. Denial runs deep. Basically: Don’t go down this path unless you accept that it’s going to have significant downsides and consequences, many of which are long lasting or permanent. And definitely don’t dabble in taking testosterone or steroids as an early step in a weightlifting career or as a trial to see if it gives you a boost. The consequences can/will be permanent for the rest of your life.

User23 3y ago
> Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it Can, not will. You're right though to point out that the body loves homeostasis and will downregulate endogenous testosterone production if serum levels are high from supplementation. Testicular atrophy from extended use is a real potential problem. Unfortunately, TRT clinics are like the Internet Viagra doctors: they are drug dealers with an MD. If you have low testosterone then see an endocrinologist or a urologist for treatment. There are certainly cases where exogenous testosterone injections are indicated, but depending on the kind of hypogonadism in question there can be better alternatives that don't involve injections or infertility. It's worth noting that the secular testosterone decline is not a "new normal," but rather basically every man in the West is suffering from some kind of hypogonadism. We can speculate about the causes, but the precipitous drops in average population serum testosterone levels measured over the past decades is anything but natural or normal. > many of which are long lasting or permanent True, but not all of the permanent effects are negative. Exogenous testosterone causes muscle cell nuclei to multiply, and there is a permanent anabolic effect as a result. It's nowhere near as dramatic as being on exogenous androgens, but it's still significant.

MagicMoonlight 3y ago

It works. Every single athlete you have ever seen is on it. Any woman you see in a bodybuilding competition is on it (no a woman doesn’t have 2% bodyfat and 18 inch arms naturally). Every single celebrity is on it. No, Zac Efron doesn’t naturally have 20 inch arms. It’s difficult to quantify risk because the people who die are always celebrity coke heads. They tend to die during binge sessions where they’ve slammed 5g of cocaine and had 12 shots. Steroids increase BP so you need to manage that and you can’t be doing things like cocaine or drinking. The more you take, the worse your BP. That and the cocaine will be the killer. I’m yet to see anything obviously harmful about testosterone. Some of the drugs that have branched off it have signs of harm but that might be due to increased strength or changed structure. People are talking about your penis shrinking or whatever. Your testes do shrink but it’s not permanent. You need to make sure all traces of the drugs are out of your body before the system will start back up and that’s where people get stuck. Some drugs have metabolites that can last years. Testosterone isn’t the same but still takes time depending on the half life of the form. Ironically women have the easiest time of it. Their hormone system doesn’t care about testosterone so they can go on and off whenever they want. The downside for women is the androgenisation. They start growing facial hair, deepening their voice and enlarging their clit. That’s a dealbreaker for most women for obvious reasons so a woman would need to be seriously committed to this. For men, having a thicker beard and masculine features is a good thing so that’s fine. It will accelerate your rate of hair loss though. It affects your personality. You are happier, braver, more focused and more aggressive. You feel like the leader of the pack no matter how pathetic you are. That confidence might be good or bad for you. You’ll be a lot more likely to approach women because you are continously aroused. You may be more of a cunt. In summary, like all things it is a trade-off. You might die, but you’ll be the best you could ever be at physical sport. If you don’t care about sport then that’s not a great trade. Some people do drugs at weekends and kill themselves for parties. Lots of people make trades. This isn’t a casual trade to make, you need to think it through.

solumunus 3y ago
The confidence thing is way overblown, very few people actually report that. The myth is perpetuated exclusively by people who have never taken steroids. Personally I feel exactly the same on almost any compound, the exception being tren which made me incredibly irritable. When I first tried them I thought I’d been sold fake gear because there was literally no difference in feeling compared to being natural. After being in the community for half a decade I can tell you that this is an extremely common experience.