11 ms·

Testosterone therapy and the heart: New research finds no increased risk

88 points by shaburn 3y ago

Vecr 3y ago
I wonder what the consensus view on trying to use exogenous testosterone for gaining muscle mass, I always thought it was somewhat risky.
- Solvency 3y ago
  Well there's a major difference between TRT and anabolic steroids. Everyone knows the latter is no bueno (for longevity and overall health). The verdict doesn't seem quite so resolved yet on TRT. Literally everything in the world has side effects, though. The men on TRT are likely OK with those (at least until they encounter them...then we'll see what happens a few generations in.) Also this study means nothing to me. They're looking at a few overall risk factors. There are potentially thousands of factors to consider, all interrelated and deeply codependent. Such is human biology. Science at large still doesn't truly know how hormones work and interact in their totality within the human body. Meanwhile, many cardiologists and doctors still buy into the saturated fat myth and myopic "all cholesterol is bad and will lead to heart problems" myth perpetuated by the sugar industry decades ago. So I'm not taking anyone's word yet on any of this. Ironically, bodybuilders tend to be an amazing source of bleeding edge anecdata on all of this stuff.
- adrr 3y ago
  Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose.
  - treeman79 3y ago
    It’s not much fun. Get a shot. First couple of days. I FEEL AMAZING! I WANT TO PUNCH EVERYONE! Then you’re good for a couple days. Then your dragging worse then ever. Repeat every week. Cream for skin is same thing but over the course of a day. Plus it’s crazy expensive. Eventually decide it’s not worth it and start finding out why levels are low and try and fix underlying causes.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - indecisive_user 3y ago
      You can get shorter acting esters that are injected every day or 3 days. That would make blood serum levels much more consistent
    - adrr 3y ago
      Fixing your underlying issues is a better fix. Losing weight and leading a more healthy lifestyle will improve your levels. You can also inject every other day subcutaneously. You won’t spike your estrogen due to the more consistent levels.
    - PragmaticPulp 3y ago
      > It’s not much fun. TRT forums are kind of fascinating because they're full of people who though (or, sadly, were convinced by TRT clinics) that TRT was going to be amazing, solve all of their problems, and make them feel like 20 year olds again. Then the realities of getting your hormones from imperfect exogenous sources and dealing with all of the imperfect complications thereof set in. A lot of disappointed stories from people who feel marginally better but thought it was going to cure every struggle in their lives. Unfortunately, a lot of people with depression issues also end up in TRT clinics because hypogonadism is a more palatable diagnosis than mental health issues for many.
    - mikebenfield 3y ago
      Unless you’re on some crazy fast ester, that should not happen at all. The injection forms a depot in your muscle that gradually puts testosterone into your bloodstream. Your actual blood testosterone levels should not vary dramatically from day to day with regular injections
      - adrr 3y ago
        weekly injections is still very spikey in terms a levels. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacokinetics-of-testosterone-enanthate-after-injection-of-250-mg_fig6_264848721 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacoki...
  - solumunus 3y ago
    Not quite true. As a natural your levels fluctuate massively throughout the day. Drink alcohol? Levels will go down. Bad sleep? Levels will go down. Sick? Levels will go down. Low body fat %? Levels will go down. When you’re on TRT you have consistent levels 24/7 no matter what environmental conditions are present. This has a significant effect. You will absolutely be able to more easily build and maintain a good physique on TRT.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    Getting into normal ranges can help muscle growth if you’re very low initially. Not bodybuilder levels but a better healthy baseline
  - leroy_masochist 3y ago
    > Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose. Your math is way off. A TRT dose of testosterone is going to be something like 70-125mg/week. A bodybuilding dose is going to be ~250-350mg/week (often used in conjunction with other compounds like Deca-Durabolin, Trenbolone, Primobolan, Anavar, etc). An extremely aggressive bodybuilding regimen for a highly experienced anabolic steroid user is rarely going to clear 10x the total milligrams of all AAS compounds injected/ingested when compared to low-dose TRT. Also, in any human regardless of age and sex, adding a typical TRT dose of testosterone to your system is definitely going to add immediate and noticeable muscle mass.
- PragmaticPulp 3y ago
  Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it. A lot of people will try to tell you it can be avoided with the right combination of SERMs and HCG, but there are a lot of people who thought they were doing the exact “right” protocols who end up on TRT because their testicles were permanently atrophied. It’s one of those topics where everybody thinks they’re the exception who will avoid the consequences, but do it long enough and it will happen. There are also a lot of secondary effects that people underestimate. For example, the extra testosterone (beyond normal levels) will result in excess estrogen, which can grow excess breast tissue in males. There are medications that can interrupt this process, but getting the dosage right is difficult and many people fluctuate around ideal values. Fluctuation and low estrogen values will cause significant mental health effects. Again, these are theoretical avoidable under perfect conditions yet almost everyone ends up with some of it eventually. I had a friend who tried using testosterone all the “right” ways with excessive lab tests, HCG, cycling, SERMs, AIs, and everything else. It still ended up destabilizing his mental health and making him prone to anger and bouts of sadness/crying. He denied it for a long time because he thought it couldn’t possibly be his by-the-book protocol, but eventually we got him to admit it was a problem. Denial runs deep. Basically: Don’t go down this path unless you accept that it’s going to have significant downsides and consequences, many of which are long lasting or permanent. And definitely don’t dabble in taking testosterone or steroids as an early step in a weightlifting career or as a trial to see if it gives you a boost. The consequences can/will be permanent for the rest of your life.
  - User23 3y ago
    > Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it Can, not will. You're right though to point out that the body loves homeostasis and will downregulate endogenous testosterone production if serum levels are high from supplementation. Testicular atrophy from extended use is a real potential problem. Unfortunately, TRT clinics are like the Internet Viagra doctors: they are drug dealers with an MD. If you have low testosterone then see an endocrinologist or a urologist for treatment. There are certainly cases where exogenous testosterone injections are indicated, but depending on the kind of hypogonadism in question there can be better alternatives that don't involve injections or infertility. It's worth noting that the secular testosterone decline is not a "new normal," but rather basically every man in the West is suffering from some kind of hypogonadism. We can speculate about the causes, but the precipitous drops in average population serum testosterone levels measured over the past decades is anything but natural or normal. > many of which are long lasting or permanent True, but not all of the permanent effects are negative. Exogenous testosterone causes muscle cell nuclei to multiply, and there is a permanent anabolic effect as a result. It's nowhere near as dramatic as being on exogenous androgens, but it's still significant.
- MagicMoonlight 3y ago
  It works. Every single athlete you have ever seen is on it. Any woman you see in a bodybuilding competition is on it (no a woman doesn’t have 2% bodyfat and 18 inch arms naturally). Every single celebrity is on it. No, Zac Efron doesn’t naturally have 20 inch arms. It’s difficult to quantify risk because the people who die are always celebrity coke heads. They tend to die during binge sessions where they’ve slammed 5g of cocaine and had 12 shots. Steroids increase BP so you need to manage that and you can’t be doing things like cocaine or drinking. The more you take, the worse your BP. That and the cocaine will be the killer. I’m yet to see anything obviously harmful about testosterone. Some of the drugs that have branched off it have signs of harm but that might be due to increased strength or changed structure. People are talking about your penis shrinking or whatever. Your testes do shrink but it’s not permanent. You need to make sure all traces of the drugs are out of your body before the system will start back up and that’s where people get stuck. Some drugs have metabolites that can last years. Testosterone isn’t the same but still takes time depending on the half life of the form. Ironically women have the easiest time of it. Their hormone system doesn’t care about testosterone so they can go on and off whenever they want. The downside for women is the androgenisation. They start growing facial hair, deepening their voice and enlarging their clit. That’s a dealbreaker for most women for obvious reasons so a woman would need to be seriously committed to this. For men, having a thicker beard and masculine features is a good thing so that’s fine. It will accelerate your rate of hair loss though. It affects your personality. You are happier, braver, more focused and more aggressive. You feel like the leader of the pack no matter how pathetic you are. That confidence might be good or bad for you. You’ll be a lot more likely to approach women because you are continously aroused. You may be more of a cunt. In summary, like all things it is a trade-off. You might die, but you’ll be the best you could ever be at physical sport. If you don’t care about sport then that’s not a great trade. Some people do drugs at weekends and kill themselves for parties. Lots of people make trades. This isn’t a casual trade to make, you need to think it through.
  - solumunus 3y ago
    The confidence thing is way overblown, very few people actually report that. The myth is perpetuated exclusively by people who have never taken steroids. Personally I feel exactly the same on almost any compound, the exception being tren which made me incredibly irritable. When I first tried them I thought I’d been sold fake gear because there was literally no difference in feeling compared to being natural. After being in the community for half a decade I can tell you that this is an extremely common experience.
tedunangst 3y ago
How about research into whether a 55 year old actually requires the T levels of a 25 year old or whether they can make do naturally?
- indecisive_user 3y ago
  If I could choose between feeling like a 55 year old and a 25 year old, why would I pick the former? If there are no major health consequences then what's there even to consider outside of cost?
  - AngryData 3y ago
    Is a temporary boost worth developing a reliance on such medication? From what ive seen your body quickly adapts to the testosterone, and while it feels good initially eventually you are back to the same baseline, except now if you stop taking it you will feel even worse as the levels drop below what your initial baseline was to start with. And many people will resort to taking even higher and higher doses, chasing the "high" that they got from it initially.
    - brigadier132 3y ago
      No there is no baseline reversion for exogenous testosterone. What happens is that your natural ability to produce testosterone disappears.
      - adastra22 3y ago
        What about supplements like KSM-66 or other T “boosters.” Do these decrease your baseline production if you stop taking them?
        sooheon 3y ago
        They seem to hardly effect your baseline production in the first place, so little risk?
    - 3y ago
archo 3y ago
https://archive.is/eu1eH https://archive.is/eu1eH
steele 3y ago
Gender affirming care for everyone
- m00x 3y ago
  Going from man to very man.
  - MagicMoonlight 3y ago
    If a woman can get testosterone because she feels like feeling like a man then men should be able to get their own hormones. Women are allowed testosterone for menopause as well which is really bullshit. They can get it over the counter while a man faces deep scrutiny if his hormone levels have dropped with age.
    - Llamamoe 3y ago
      Bad faith transphobic comment that misrepresents reality? Nice. The difference is that there aren't alternatives to GAHT for transgender people, while cis men routinely overestimate how much upping their low-normal testosterone levels might do for them, wanting to shut down their HPG axis when almost any other intervention starting from being physically active for 15 minutes more a day, would do more for them.
leroy_masochist 3y ago
Seeing a lot of conflation of a) TRT dosages of T, b) bodybuilding dosages of TRT, and c) T-related PEDs in these comments. I think the key things to remember here are: *Monitoring your own response to the therapy is key, whether you're a middle-aged man getting shots of Sustanon at your doctor's office or a professional bodybuilder running over a gram of androgens every week. There is no substitute for regular bloodwork. Some people's livers handle this shit better than others'. *Contra some of the posts on this thread, not all PEDs are going to permanently shut down your HPTA. In fact, basically nothing is. People decide that they're "permanently damaged" because they expect PCT to fully take care of the shutdown and then can't ride out a few weeks of cold turkey. The testes restart, but they're like a diesel engine; it takes a while to get them going again. *On a similar note, not all PEDs are going to automatically kill you. Some, like methenolone, are if anything beneficial to overall health and longevity. Others, like halotestin, are probably going to take years off your life. Do your own research and, again, get bloodwork done regularly. *Finally, it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mgarfias 3y ago
  > *Finally, it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility. Yup. When off the stuff I’m super irritable. On it I’m calm. Too bad it turned my blood into 140w gear oil. I’ve been waiting 6mps to get into an endo who up and quit and now I’m waiting more.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- sfjailbird 3y ago
  > it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility. Adding testosterone also raises estrogen (estradiol) which causes irritability. It is hard to find a balance where both are in check.
temporallobe 3y ago
I had to go on TRT about six years ago because of brain tumor (prolactinoma) that effectively destroyed my ability to produce testosterone. My prescribing doctor was and is an endocrinologist, and he told me from the very beginning that there was no direct increased risk for cardiac events, but it does increase RBC, so hypertension becomes a risk, with all of the obvious negatives that comes with. If you’re on TRT or plan on doing it in the future, regularly check your BP. I believe regular blood tests is the standard protocol as well. My experience is that I have a slightly better mood, BUT, I have increased libido that does a crazy spike about halfway through the cycle (where I feel a raging insatiable teenager), followed by a significant drop in both mood and libido. It’s rather annoying, but better than the alternative.
- rhinoceraptor 3y ago
  Do you have to go in to an office to get it? If not you can just split your dose in half and double the frequency. The reduced fluid volume also means you can do subcutaneous instead of intramuscular so it's less of a hassle.
- Llamamoe 3y ago
  This is why I added a low dose SARM to my feminizing HRT. I wish I realized earlier how much it was contributing to my already problematically low BP.
- solumunus 3y ago
  Sounds like he has you on a terrible prescription. Undecanoate every few months? With a proper dosing schedule you won’t have these peaks and crashes. Unfortunately, in most places the common prescriptions for these things make absolutely no sense!
backtoyoujim 3y ago
Glad to see gender therapy is doing fine for CIS males, I suppose.
thesaintlives 3y ago
My experience: 1.Taking PED's is amazing. 2.Permanently shutting off your own test production is complete nonsense. 3.PCT did nothing for me. When you come off expect to feel low. Bridge with HGH. 4.Arimidex etc. is not always necessary. I never bothered and had no problems. 5.Microdosing is complete bollocks. 5.Be sensible. Unless you are going for peak athletic performance look for other ways to increase your testosterone levels etc. 6.Start slowly and build up your dose and the compounds as you require. 7.Tren is the absolute last thing to try. 8.There is no magic bullet. Results take work and dedication. Questions? Details? Disagree? Comment..
- jychang 3y ago
  What do you mean by bridge with HGH? How does that affect mood/“feeling low”?
  - thesaintlives 3y ago
    It makes you feel a little better mentally and helps you keep up a slightly different training routine (more aerobic based, not as heavy). It also allows your own system to come back online. I know this from doing it and it is also suggested by one the guys I really like listening to with regards to what and how to use these drugs - Broderick Chavez...
- willio58 3y ago
  > 1.Taking PED's is amazing. I feel like we need more research on the negative effects long term of specific PEDs. I’m not willing to sacrifice any years on the backend of my life for the appearance of myself now, but if I had guarantees that managed properly I wouldn’t change my lifespan negatively I would consider it. The other whole aspect is how these affect you mentally. Like the classic “roid rage”, is that avoidable if you take a manageable dose or is something like that inevitable with taking drugs that manipulate your hormones?
  - thesaintlives 3y ago
    Yes. For sure. I love sex and I am an older guy. Many women love a jacked guy. For me the risk reward ratio was totally worth it. I did it from 16 to 19 years of age (not sensible) and then from 49 onwards (sensible). 250mg a week and under you get virtually no side effects. Most certainly not roid rage. Only positive mental attitude adjustments. 500mg and over you know about it. Many side effects, not positive. I weigh about 95kg naturally. Base how much you need for what you want to get on how big you are and how big you want to become..

88 points by shaburn 3y ago

Vecr 3y ago

I wonder what the consensus view on trying to use exogenous testosterone for gaining muscle mass, I always thought it was somewhat risky.

Solvency 3y ago
Well there's a major difference between TRT and anabolic steroids. Everyone knows the latter is no bueno (for longevity and overall health). The verdict doesn't seem quite so resolved yet on TRT. Literally everything in the world has side effects, though. The men on TRT are likely OK with those (at least until they encounter them...then we'll see what happens a few generations in.) Also this study means nothing to me. They're looking at a few overall risk factors. There are potentially thousands of factors to consider, all interrelated and deeply codependent. Such is human biology. Science at large still doesn't truly know how hormones work and interact in their totality within the human body. Meanwhile, many cardiologists and doctors still buy into the saturated fat myth and myopic "all cholesterol is bad and will lead to heart problems" myth perpetuated by the sugar industry decades ago. So I'm not taking anyone's word yet on any of this. Ironically, bodybuilders tend to be an amazing source of bleeding edge anecdata on all of this stuff.
adrr 3y ago
Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose.
- treeman79 3y ago
  It’s not much fun. Get a shot. First couple of days. I FEEL AMAZING! I WANT TO PUNCH EVERYONE! Then you’re good for a couple days. Then your dragging worse then ever. Repeat every week. Cream for skin is same thing but over the course of a day. Plus it’s crazy expensive. Eventually decide it’s not worth it and start finding out why levels are low and try and fix underlying causes.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - indecisive_user 3y ago
    You can get shorter acting esters that are injected every day or 3 days. That would make blood serum levels much more consistent
  - adrr 3y ago
    Fixing your underlying issues is a better fix. Losing weight and leading a more healthy lifestyle will improve your levels. You can also inject every other day subcutaneously. You won’t spike your estrogen due to the more consistent levels.
  - PragmaticPulp 3y ago
    > It’s not much fun. TRT forums are kind of fascinating because they're full of people who though (or, sadly, were convinced by TRT clinics) that TRT was going to be amazing, solve all of their problems, and make them feel like 20 year olds again. Then the realities of getting your hormones from imperfect exogenous sources and dealing with all of the imperfect complications thereof set in. A lot of disappointed stories from people who feel marginally better but thought it was going to cure every struggle in their lives. Unfortunately, a lot of people with depression issues also end up in TRT clinics because hypogonadism is a more palatable diagnosis than mental health issues for many.
  - mikebenfield 3y ago
    Unless you’re on some crazy fast ester, that should not happen at all. The injection forms a depot in your muscle that gradually puts testosterone into your bloodstream. Your actual blood testosterone levels should not vary dramatically from day to day with regular injections
    - adrr 3y ago
      weekly injections is still very spikey in terms a levels. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacokinetics-of-testosterone-enanthate-after-injection-of-250-mg_fig6_264848721 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Multiple-dose-pharmacoki...
- solumunus 3y ago
  Not quite true. As a natural your levels fluctuate massively throughout the day. Drink alcohol? Levels will go down. Bad sleep? Levels will go down. Sick? Levels will go down. Low body fat %? Levels will go down. When you’re on TRT you have consistent levels 24/7 no matter what environmental conditions are present. This has a significant effect. You will absolutely be able to more easily build and maintain a good physique on TRT.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  Getting into normal ranges can help muscle growth if you’re very low initially. Not bodybuilder levels but a better healthy baseline
- leroy_masochist 3y ago
  > Testosterone therapy isn’t about gaining muscle, it is about getting testosterone levels to “normal” ranges. To gain muscles, the dose will be 10x of a therapeutic dose. Your math is way off. A TRT dose of testosterone is going to be something like 70-125mg/week. A bodybuilding dose is going to be ~250-350mg/week (often used in conjunction with other compounds like Deca-Durabolin, Trenbolone, Primobolan, Anavar, etc). An extremely aggressive bodybuilding regimen for a highly experienced anabolic steroid user is rarely going to clear 10x the total milligrams of all AAS compounds injected/ingested when compared to low-dose TRT. Also, in any human regardless of age and sex, adding a typical TRT dose of testosterone to your system is definitely going to add immediate and noticeable muscle mass.
PragmaticPulp 3y ago
Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it. A lot of people will try to tell you it can be avoided with the right combination of SERMs and HCG, but there are a lot of people who thought they were doing the exact “right” protocols who end up on TRT because their testicles were permanently atrophied. It’s one of those topics where everybody thinks they’re the exception who will avoid the consequences, but do it long enough and it will happen. There are also a lot of secondary effects that people underestimate. For example, the extra testosterone (beyond normal levels) will result in excess estrogen, which can grow excess breast tissue in males. There are medications that can interrupt this process, but getting the dosage right is difficult and many people fluctuate around ideal values. Fluctuation and low estrogen values will cause significant mental health effects. Again, these are theoretical avoidable under perfect conditions yet almost everyone ends up with some of it eventually. I had a friend who tried using testosterone all the “right” ways with excessive lab tests, HCG, cycling, SERMs, AIs, and everything else. It still ended up destabilizing his mental health and making him prone to anger and bouts of sadness/crying. He denied it for a long time because he thought it couldn’t possibly be his by-the-book protocol, but eventually we got him to admit it was a problem. Denial runs deep. Basically: Don’t go down this path unless you accept that it’s going to have significant downsides and consequences, many of which are long lasting or permanent. And definitely don’t dabble in taking testosterone or steroids as an early step in a weightlifting career or as a trial to see if it gives you a boost. The consequences can/will be permanent for the rest of your life.
- User23 3y ago
  > Using exogenous testosterone will shut down your endogenous production, or at least permanently reduce it Can, not will. You're right though to point out that the body loves homeostasis and will downregulate endogenous testosterone production if serum levels are high from supplementation. Testicular atrophy from extended use is a real potential problem. Unfortunately, TRT clinics are like the Internet Viagra doctors: they are drug dealers with an MD. If you have low testosterone then see an endocrinologist or a urologist for treatment. There are certainly cases where exogenous testosterone injections are indicated, but depending on the kind of hypogonadism in question there can be better alternatives that don't involve injections or infertility. It's worth noting that the secular testosterone decline is not a "new normal," but rather basically every man in the West is suffering from some kind of hypogonadism. We can speculate about the causes, but the precipitous drops in average population serum testosterone levels measured over the past decades is anything but natural or normal. > many of which are long lasting or permanent True, but not all of the permanent effects are negative. Exogenous testosterone causes muscle cell nuclei to multiply, and there is a permanent anabolic effect as a result. It's nowhere near as dramatic as being on exogenous androgens, but it's still significant.
MagicMoonlight 3y ago
It works. Every single athlete you have ever seen is on it. Any woman you see in a bodybuilding competition is on it (no a woman doesn’t have 2% bodyfat and 18 inch arms naturally). Every single celebrity is on it. No, Zac Efron doesn’t naturally have 20 inch arms. It’s difficult to quantify risk because the people who die are always celebrity coke heads. They tend to die during binge sessions where they’ve slammed 5g of cocaine and had 12 shots. Steroids increase BP so you need to manage that and you can’t be doing things like cocaine or drinking. The more you take, the worse your BP. That and the cocaine will be the killer. I’m yet to see anything obviously harmful about testosterone. Some of the drugs that have branched off it have signs of harm but that might be due to increased strength or changed structure. People are talking about your penis shrinking or whatever. Your testes do shrink but it’s not permanent. You need to make sure all traces of the drugs are out of your body before the system will start back up and that’s where people get stuck. Some drugs have metabolites that can last years. Testosterone isn’t the same but still takes time depending on the half life of the form. Ironically women have the easiest time of it. Their hormone system doesn’t care about testosterone so they can go on and off whenever they want. The downside for women is the androgenisation. They start growing facial hair, deepening their voice and enlarging their clit. That’s a dealbreaker for most women for obvious reasons so a woman would need to be seriously committed to this. For men, having a thicker beard and masculine features is a good thing so that’s fine. It will accelerate your rate of hair loss though. It affects your personality. You are happier, braver, more focused and more aggressive. You feel like the leader of the pack no matter how pathetic you are. That confidence might be good or bad for you. You’ll be a lot more likely to approach women because you are continously aroused. You may be more of a cunt. In summary, like all things it is a trade-off. You might die, but you’ll be the best you could ever be at physical sport. If you don’t care about sport then that’s not a great trade. Some people do drugs at weekends and kill themselves for parties. Lots of people make trades. This isn’t a casual trade to make, you need to think it through.
- solumunus 3y ago
  The confidence thing is way overblown, very few people actually report that. The myth is perpetuated exclusively by people who have never taken steroids. Personally I feel exactly the same on almost any compound, the exception being tren which made me incredibly irritable. When I first tried them I thought I’d been sold fake gear because there was literally no difference in feeling compared to being natural. After being in the community for half a decade I can tell you that this is an extremely common experience.

tedunangst 3y ago

How about research into whether a 55 year old actually requires the T levels of a 25 year old or whether they can make do naturally?

indecisive_user 3y ago
If I could choose between feeling like a 55 year old and a 25 year old, why would I pick the former? If there are no major health consequences then what's there even to consider outside of cost?
- AngryData 3y ago
  Is a temporary boost worth developing a reliance on such medication? From what ive seen your body quickly adapts to the testosterone, and while it feels good initially eventually you are back to the same baseline, except now if you stop taking it you will feel even worse as the levels drop below what your initial baseline was to start with. And many people will resort to taking even higher and higher doses, chasing the "high" that they got from it initially.
  - brigadier132 3y ago
    No there is no baseline reversion for exogenous testosterone. What happens is that your natural ability to produce testosterone disappears.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      What about supplements like KSM-66 or other T “boosters.” Do these decrease your baseline production if you stop taking them?
      - sooheon 3y ago
        They seem to hardly effect your baseline production in the first place, so little risk?
  - 3y ago

archo 3y ago

https://archive.is/eu1eH https://archive.is/eu1eH

steele 3y ago

Gender affirming care for everyone

m00x 3y ago
Going from man to very man.
- MagicMoonlight 3y ago
  If a woman can get testosterone because she feels like feeling like a man then men should be able to get their own hormones. Women are allowed testosterone for menopause as well which is really bullshit. They can get it over the counter while a man faces deep scrutiny if his hormone levels have dropped with age.
  - Llamamoe 3y ago
    Bad faith transphobic comment that misrepresents reality? Nice. The difference is that there aren't alternatives to GAHT for transgender people, while cis men routinely overestimate how much upping their low-normal testosterone levels might do for them, wanting to shut down their HPG axis when almost any other intervention starting from being physically active for 15 minutes more a day, would do more for them.

leroy_masochist 3y ago

Seeing a lot of conflation of a) TRT dosages of T, b) bodybuilding dosages of TRT, and c) T-related PEDs in these comments. I think the key things to remember here are: *Monitoring your own response to the therapy is key, whether you're a middle-aged man getting shots of Sustanon at your doctor's office or a professional bodybuilder running over a gram of androgens every week. There is no substitute for regular bloodwork. Some people's livers handle this shit better than others'. *Contra some of the posts on this thread, not all PEDs are going to permanently shut down your HPTA. In fact, basically nothing is. People decide that they're "permanently damaged" because they expect PCT to fully take care of the shutdown and then can't ride out a few weeks of cold turkey. The testes restart, but they're like a diesel engine; it takes a while to get them going again. *On a similar note, not all PEDs are going to automatically kill you. Some, like methenolone, are if anything beneficial to overall health and longevity. Others, like halotestin, are probably going to take years off your life. Do your own research and, again, get bloodwork done regularly. *Finally, it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mgarfias 3y ago
> *Finally, it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility. Yup. When off the stuff I’m super irritable. On it I’m calm. Too bad it turned my blood into 140w gear oil. I’ve been waiting 6mps to get into an endo who up and quit and now I’m waiting more.
- deleted 3y ago
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sfjailbird 3y ago
> it's interesting to hear comments from people saying the "wanted to punch everyone", etc, when they started TRT. At TRT doses, most men experience a sense of calm and confidence, rather than irascibility. Adding testosterone also raises estrogen (estradiol) which causes irritability. It is hard to find a balance where both are in check.

temporallobe 3y ago

I had to go on TRT about six years ago because of brain tumor (prolactinoma) that effectively destroyed my ability to produce testosterone. My prescribing doctor was and is an endocrinologist, and he told me from the very beginning that there was no direct increased risk for cardiac events, but it does increase RBC, so hypertension becomes a risk, with all of the obvious negatives that comes with. If you’re on TRT or plan on doing it in the future, regularly check your BP. I believe regular blood tests is the standard protocol as well. My experience is that I have a slightly better mood, BUT, I have increased libido that does a crazy spike about halfway through the cycle (where I feel a raging insatiable teenager), followed by a significant drop in both mood and libido. It’s rather annoying, but better than the alternative.

rhinoceraptor 3y ago
Do you have to go in to an office to get it? If not you can just split your dose in half and double the frequency. The reduced fluid volume also means you can do subcutaneous instead of intramuscular so it's less of a hassle.
Llamamoe 3y ago
This is why I added a low dose SARM to my feminizing HRT. I wish I realized earlier how much it was contributing to my already problematically low BP.
solumunus 3y ago
Sounds like he has you on a terrible prescription. Undecanoate every few months? With a proper dosing schedule you won’t have these peaks and crashes. Unfortunately, in most places the common prescriptions for these things make absolutely no sense!

backtoyoujim 3y ago

Glad to see gender therapy is doing fine for CIS males, I suppose.

thesaintlives 3y ago

My experience: 1.Taking PED's is amazing. 2.Permanently shutting off your own test production is complete nonsense. 3.PCT did nothing for me. When you come off expect to feel low. Bridge with HGH. 4.Arimidex etc. is not always necessary. I never bothered and had no problems. 5.Microdosing is complete bollocks. 5.Be sensible. Unless you are going for peak athletic performance look for other ways to increase your testosterone levels etc. 6.Start slowly and build up your dose and the compounds as you require. 7.Tren is the absolute last thing to try. 8.There is no magic bullet. Results take work and dedication. Questions? Details? Disagree? Comment..

jychang 3y ago
What do you mean by bridge with HGH? How does that affect mood/“feeling low”?
- thesaintlives 3y ago
  It makes you feel a little better mentally and helps you keep up a slightly different training routine (more aerobic based, not as heavy). It also allows your own system to come back online. I know this from doing it and it is also suggested by one the guys I really like listening to with regards to what and how to use these drugs - Broderick Chavez...
willio58 3y ago
> 1.Taking PED's is amazing. I feel like we need more research on the negative effects long term of specific PEDs. I’m not willing to sacrifice any years on the backend of my life for the appearance of myself now, but if I had guarantees that managed properly I wouldn’t change my lifespan negatively I would consider it. The other whole aspect is how these affect you mentally. Like the classic “roid rage”, is that avoidable if you take a manageable dose or is something like that inevitable with taking drugs that manipulate your hormones?
- thesaintlives 3y ago
  Yes. For sure. I love sex and I am an older guy. Many women love a jacked guy. For me the risk reward ratio was totally worth it. I did it from 16 to 19 years of age (not sensible) and then from 49 onwards (sensible). 250mg a week and under you get virtually no side effects. Most certainly not roid rage. Only positive mental attitude adjustments. 500mg and over you know about it. Many side effects, not positive. I weigh about 95kg naturally. Base how much you need for what you want to get on how big you are and how big you want to become..