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I disagree with your doomsday scenario. There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate establ

I disagree with your doomsday scenario. There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. No doubt some have already contacted Reddit management saying that if they de-mod x subreddit they will jump in and guarantee the subreddit's operation. I don't understand the argument about the lack of free labour drying up. It won't. There are people who thrive on having power over others even though in this case, subreddit moderation, it is perceived power. And Reddit management knows this. For years they have seen how moderators relish and also abuse power. That's why there are moderator guidelines. In fact, I think it can be argued that Reddit is leveraging this moment to flush out long standing and troublesome moderators which I think is clearly being what the end game is. And Huffman's goal. It may be silly of me to say, however, I don't think people are giving Huffman enough credit. He knew that there would be significant blowback. He has been involved with Reddit longer and probably far more in depth than any other employee or user. I wouldn't put it past him that he knows Reddit moderation is due for a shake up and is probably keen on getting rid of a subset. And by doing so he can not only pick and choose which users he wants in on what subreddits but more importantly can dictate the culture he wants. This whole episode if far from over. He has clearly said that the new API changes are going nowhere and I'm willing to bet that he gets what he wants (which includes a mod clean out) with the outcome being a few people quitting the site and people talking about him from now until eternity. EDIT: Spelling

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. (...) There are people who thrive on having power over others even though in this case, subreddit moderation, it is perceived power. Yes. Those are the very people who should be never ever allowed to become mods, or to be anywhere near any position of power. This is how people seeking status and power self-identify, and if they're given mod power, you can count on their subreddits going to shit rather quickly, and/or them eventually getting bored and quitting, once they realize that being a mod is a hard and thankless job, with people who need you the most hating you the most. Now sure, the current set of moderators isn't made of saints and purely selfless people either. But it's stable. The worst moderators long ago dropped out, or rode their subreddits down to ground. Reddit ecosystem reached an equilibrium. Now the corporate is shaking everything up, and the platform will have to re-equilibrize again. I expect to watch good subreddits go to shit, some getting forked off, and maybe those forks thriving if there's still enough selfless enough volunteers left after this debacle.
- braindead_in 3y ago
  > Those are the very people who should be never ever allowed to become mods, or to be anywhere near any position of power Okay. How about AI as the new mod then?
  - Ringz 3y ago
    Bots creating content. Bots moderating content to fit corporate agenda. Clueless users consuming streamlined content. That would be a perfect circle.
    - koolba 3y ago
      Just cut out the literal middle “man”, and have the bots click on the ads too.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        Sure, if you also let the bots buy things and sell things, then it'll be perfectly reasonable for them to also click on ads. At that point, however, we may find out that the global economy turned into a fully automated, circular optimization process, and took off, leaving humans behind to starve and die.
        LocalH 3y ago
        The paper clip maximizer in reality.
      - mysterydip 3y ago
        Funny that this is the only part companies don't want.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > Okay. How about AI as the new mod then? Sure, when we solve AI alignment (and I mean x-risk / Eliezer-style AI alignment, not the outrage-minimizing political correctness that's being called "alignment" by OpenAI and the others).
sarajevo 3y ago
I think you nailed it with this comment - there is a long line of folks who are waiting for open mod positions.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  As a general principle, people in that line self-identify as unsuitable for the role and should not be given it, unless your goal is to destroy the community. Which I guess is fine for Reddit - people will escape bad mods by forking subreddits off, and things will eventually settle down. Just don't expect your favorite subreddits to be there once the dust settles.
malka 3y ago
> There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. You mean "4 chan users salivating at the idea of trolling reddit" ?
- trallnag 3y ago
  Is 4chan living rent free in your head?
  - WHYLEE1991 3y ago
    or it's just a fun stand in for "mentally unwell racist person"
- Applejinx 3y ago
  You mean 'controlling' reddit. Folks like this have had tastes of power before. If you think about it, knowing that Reddit is a feeder to ChatGPT, it could be a strategic move to try and make it so that all the AIs of the future default to 4chan mindset. Bold if true! Heck of a motivation. And Reddit as it stands is clearly not optimal for delivering this, but with enough dedicated mods power-modding the heck out of everything, maybe it COULD be the ideal source data for the ultimate 4chan artificial intelligence…
  - malka 3y ago
    I would be only mildly surprised if some group of channers would plan that. Despite their toxicity, they are the most focused and determined group I have ever seen. So bad it is always for destructive purposes. They could have been great people.
    - chasd00 3y ago
      4channers are remarkably resourceful and effective at times, if any group could manage such an ambitious task as poisoning all LLM AIs it would be them. I've heard it described as weaponized autism.
safety1st 3y ago
You make some good points but if there's one fatal flaw these big tech CEOs and their boards seem to have it's hubris. Reddit doesn't have a moat and it also doesn't have data that's amazingly interesting. This may very well be part of a power play by Huffman but he's forgotten the only two things that really matter at the end of the day, which are quality and volume/scale. Screwing his mods hurts him on both of those counts, because bottom line is it will result in people leaving and putting their energy into rival projects. Tech giants can and do fall and it almost always happens because they lose sight of those two things which matter and get embroiled in their own internal political navel-gazing BS. If he is sacrificing quality and scale for anything he's slowly signing the death warrant of the business he manages. Mind you this may even be intentional - "let's move this business into the maturation phase where it continually gets shittier and our margins get higher until it collapses and we sell it off or something" is a completely normal and regular strategy, happens all the time, businesses exist to make money for their owners. All businesses go through three phases, growth, maturity, and decline. But as a user or consumer if you see it moving toward the end of the cycle it's usually in your best interest to get the hell out sooner rather than later.
- tyre 3y ago
  > Reddit doesn't have a moat Reddit has a tremendous moat. Like any social network, its users are the moat. Its usability has gotten worse in the past few years but there simply aren't great alternatives. (Federated services like Lemmy are not serious reddit alternatives.)
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Well it's the long tail of high-effort users, comments, subreddits, that are the moat. The vast majority of content is replaceable by tiktok, twitter, etc...
  - safety1st 3y ago
    Users are a pretty weak moat. We know this because if they were a good one, Reddit wouldn't exist. We'd all still be on Myspace or Digg or wherever. Apple, Microsoft, Google, those guys have moats. Leaving their ecosystems is HARD. Leaving Myspace, Digg, Facebook or Reddit just because there are less users somewhere else isn't really that big of a loss. Once people have a good alternative they do it pretty quickly. The history of rapid turnover in social media giants compared to other tech sectors is the proof. If you wanted to be edgy I think you could even argue users are an anti-moat for social media because they age, become uncool, and then the next generation doesn't want to hang out in your uncool boomer space and goes somewhere else. This is FB's current predicament.
joseda-hg 3y ago
While I agree that the situation described is excessive, good mods are non fungible, a mod will have to take unpopular decisions, and act according to experience to determine a best path to follow, what the mod team does determines the kind of discussion to be had in the platform and who's allowed to have it It's the reason subs will look for "experienced mods", there's a learning curve and a taste you'll have to develop, specially with smaller communities
nerdbert 3y ago
> There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. Either those people will be bad mods who will shepherd their communities into further decline, or many of them will eventually come around to the position that Reddit's changes are bad for mods. There's nothing magic about the current batch of mods other than that they got there first. The same things that affected their perspective will affect the perspective of their replacements.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

> There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. (...) There are people who thrive on having power over others even though in this case, subreddit moderation, it is perceived power. Yes. Those are the very people who should be never ever allowed to become mods, or to be anywhere near any position of power. This is how people seeking status and power self-identify, and if they're given mod power, you can count on their subreddits going to shit rather quickly, and/or them eventually getting bored and quitting, once they realize that being a mod is a hard and thankless job, with people who need you the most hating you the most. Now sure, the current set of moderators isn't made of saints and purely selfless people either. But it's stable. The worst moderators long ago dropped out, or rode their subreddits down to ground. Reddit ecosystem reached an equilibrium. Now the corporate is shaking everything up, and the platform will have to re-equilibrize again. I expect to watch good subreddits go to shit, some getting forked off, and maybe those forks thriving if there's still enough selfless enough volunteers left after this debacle.

braindead_in 3y ago
> Those are the very people who should be never ever allowed to become mods, or to be anywhere near any position of power Okay. How about AI as the new mod then?
- Ringz 3y ago
  Bots creating content. Bots moderating content to fit corporate agenda. Clueless users consuming streamlined content. That would be a perfect circle.
  - koolba 3y ago
    Just cut out the literal middle “man”, and have the bots click on the ads too.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      Sure, if you also let the bots buy things and sell things, then it'll be perfectly reasonable for them to also click on ads. At that point, however, we may find out that the global economy turned into a fully automated, circular optimization process, and took off, leaving humans behind to starve and die.
      - LocalH 3y ago
        The paper clip maximizer in reality.
    - mysterydip 3y ago
      Funny that this is the only part companies don't want.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > Okay. How about AI as the new mod then? Sure, when we solve AI alignment (and I mean x-risk / Eliezer-style AI alignment, not the outrage-minimizing political correctness that's being called "alignment" by OpenAI and the others).

sarajevo 3y ago

I think you nailed it with this comment - there is a long line of folks who are waiting for open mod positions.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
As a general principle, people in that line self-identify as unsuitable for the role and should not be given it, unless your goal is to destroy the community. Which I guess is fine for Reddit - people will escape bad mods by forking subreddits off, and things will eventually settle down. Just don't expect your favorite subreddits to be there once the dust settles.

malka 3y ago

trallnag 3y ago
Is 4chan living rent free in your head?
- WHYLEE1991 3y ago
  or it's just a fun stand in for "mentally unwell racist person"
Applejinx 3y ago
You mean 'controlling' reddit. Folks like this have had tastes of power before. If you think about it, knowing that Reddit is a feeder to ChatGPT, it could be a strategic move to try and make it so that all the AIs of the future default to 4chan mindset. Bold if true! Heck of a motivation. And Reddit as it stands is clearly not optimal for delivering this, but with enough dedicated mods power-modding the heck out of everything, maybe it COULD be the ideal source data for the ultimate 4chan artificial intelligence…
- malka 3y ago
  I would be only mildly surprised if some group of channers would plan that. Despite their toxicity, they are the most focused and determined group I have ever seen. So bad it is always for destructive purposes. They could have been great people.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    4channers are remarkably resourceful and effective at times, if any group could manage such an ambitious task as poisoning all LLM AIs it would be them. I've heard it described as weaponized autism.

safety1st 3y ago

You make some good points but if there's one fatal flaw these big tech CEOs and their boards seem to have it's hubris. Reddit doesn't have a moat and it also doesn't have data that's amazingly interesting. This may very well be part of a power play by Huffman but he's forgotten the only two things that really matter at the end of the day, which are quality and volume/scale. Screwing his mods hurts him on both of those counts, because bottom line is it will result in people leaving and putting their energy into rival projects. Tech giants can and do fall and it almost always happens because they lose sight of those two things which matter and get embroiled in their own internal political navel-gazing BS. If he is sacrificing quality and scale for anything he's slowly signing the death warrant of the business he manages. Mind you this may even be intentional - "let's move this business into the maturation phase where it continually gets shittier and our margins get higher until it collapses and we sell it off or something" is a completely normal and regular strategy, happens all the time, businesses exist to make money for their owners. All businesses go through three phases, growth, maturity, and decline. But as a user or consumer if you see it moving toward the end of the cycle it's usually in your best interest to get the hell out sooner rather than later.

tyre 3y ago
> Reddit doesn't have a moat Reddit has a tremendous moat. Like any social network, its users are the moat. Its usability has gotten worse in the past few years but there simply aren't great alternatives. (Federated services like Lemmy are not serious reddit alternatives.)
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Well it's the long tail of high-effort users, comments, subreddits, that are the moat. The vast majority of content is replaceable by tiktok, twitter, etc...
- safety1st 3y ago
  Users are a pretty weak moat. We know this because if they were a good one, Reddit wouldn't exist. We'd all still be on Myspace or Digg or wherever. Apple, Microsoft, Google, those guys have moats. Leaving their ecosystems is HARD. Leaving Myspace, Digg, Facebook or Reddit just because there are less users somewhere else isn't really that big of a loss. Once people have a good alternative they do it pretty quickly. The history of rapid turnover in social media giants compared to other tech sectors is the proof. If you wanted to be edgy I think you could even argue users are an anti-moat for social media because they age, become uncool, and then the next generation doesn't want to hang out in your uncool boomer space and goes somewhere else. This is FB's current predicament.

joseda-hg 3y ago

While I agree that the situation described is excessive, good mods are non fungible, a mod will have to take unpopular decisions, and act according to experience to determine a best path to follow, what the mod team does determines the kind of discussion to be had in the platform and who's allowed to have it It's the reason subs will look for "experienced mods", there's a learning curve and a taste you'll have to develop, specially with smaller communities

nerdbert 3y ago

> There are Reddit users waiting in the wings, wringing their hands ready to jump at the 'oppurtunity' to moderate established subreddits and will happily devote their time to custodial duties. Either those people will be bad mods who will shepherd their communities into further decline, or many of them will eventually come around to the position that Reddit's changes are bad for mods. There's nothing magic about the current batch of mods other than that they got there first. The same things that affected their perspective will affect the perspective of their replacements.