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Germany wants to legalize quality control of illegal drugs

195 points by tfourb 3y ago

BossingAround 3y ago
Sounds extremely reasonable.
tfourb 3y ago
tl;dr: The German minister for health wants to an existing law that bans the provision of quality control service for illegal drugs. This would allow federal states to offer "drug checking" services to consumers of illegal drug, reducing risks of accidental overdoses and similar side effects of drug usage.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
foo_foo_can_do 3y ago
The Netherlands already has anonymous drug testing centers in a few cities https://www.jellinek.nl/english/drug-testing-service/ https://www.jellinek.nl/english/drug-testing-service/
tiku 3y ago
In the Netherlands it already is possible to test your drugs legally. https://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/geintegreerde-voorzieningen/drugstestservice/ https://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/geintegreerde-voorzieningen/dru... We had some issues with white heroin a few years ago, it was sold to tourists as cocaine or something else, can't remember.
- dmbche 3y ago
  It's also the case in Canada, I know most festivals have a tent to test your stuff.
- _trampeltier 3y ago
  Switzerland too.
- MacsHeadroom 3y ago
  In the U.S. the venue, performers, and promoters of an event where testing is performed are presumed guilty of distribution of illegal substances and subject to a civil penalty of at least $250,000 and up to 2x their gross receipts (income) for the event. Thankfully the official policy of the U.S. Department of Justice has been to not enforce this law since 2018, largely due to the Opioid Epidemic becoming a top public health crisis.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > We had some issues with white heroin a few years ago, it was sold to tourists as cocaine or something else, can't remember. Thats pretty evil
dgan 3y ago
While everyone is talking about heroin/cocaïne, i think big winners will be steroid users, finally a perfect way to assess gear quality
- Shermanium 3y ago
  "Herbal drugs such as cannabis , i.e. marijuana and hashish, or medicines, anabolic steroids or sexual enhancers are not examined."
  - dgan 3y ago
    :( thanks for information
  - newsclues 3y ago
    It's crazy that cannabis users can't have their drugs tested to ensure purity, safety and to confirm they aren't laced with other drugs. But mainly to ensure people aren't smoking dried plant matter with mold or other common problems.
    - rajamaka 3y ago
      Laced weed is so rare that the entire concept may as well be categorized as a myth.
      - permo-w 3y ago
        this may have been true before the rise of artificial cannabinoids, but it's not anymore
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        Really? There was a vice documentary, but I have not seen any evidence that a significant proportion of weed is laced with synthetic cannabinoids.
      - Mashimo 3y ago
keithnz 3y ago
here in NZ we have free legal drug testing https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/info/being-safer/party-drug-checking/ https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/info/being-safer/party-dru... which we encoded into law https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2021/0050/latest/whole.html https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2021/0050/latest/whol...
bottom999mottob 3y ago
Now bring this policy to the States.
- elil17 3y ago
  You can legally buy drug test kits here, and I believe some community organizations give them out.
- wombatpm 3y ago
  I’m sure some enterprising DA will find a way to put dealers away for longer by convicting them of violating product safety and fraud i.e. you can’t sell something as heroin if it’s less than 75% pure
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    DAs in major cities don't enforce drug laws anymore. It's supposed to be compassionate but is destroying the Tenderloin and areas like it. Just have the government distribute the drugs directly. These little hacks around the system are stupid and harmful. Treat public drug use outside of your shitty government office as a crime, and drug use inside as 100% legal and a medical issue.
standardUser 3y ago
This is just more political gymnastics that only serves to ensure the continued dominance of black markets and all of the violence and death those black markets bring. Any substances widely consumed by people should be regulated and tested before they are sold to the public. Even the substances some people don't like other people consuming.
- Mashimo 3y ago
  > that only serves to ensure the continued dominance of black markets Well, no, not only. It also serves the consumers. > Any substances widely consumed by people should be regulated and tested before they are sold to the public Agreed.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  I suspect it isn't that they merely "don't like" other people consuming. They also probably think that increased access (supply) may result in increased demand. I'm not sure, but I do feel that if hard drugs were available at every 7-11 for example, there might be more junkies. Every addict is an incredible waste of human potential.
  - olejorgenb 3y ago
    > may result in increased demand Likely IMO > there might be more junkies Unlikely, the myth of "one-taste of some drugs = instant addiction" need to die.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - mathieuh 3y ago
    Is anyone suggesting hard drugs be available at 7-11? I believe all drugs should be legal, but that there should of course be checks and regulations on who has access to the harder drugs that research has shown can ruin people's lives. I say this as a formerly-active heroin addict: the hardest part of my time as an active addict was not having heroin. I was almost entirely functional, I had a full-time job the entire time, but if I was unable to get any for a couple of days it sent me completely spiralling. If had a doctor's note showing I was an active heroin addict which would allow me to purchase heroin OTC at a chemist it would have improved my life immeasurably and made it much easier for me to quit. After all, it was only ever a day or two before I could buy more, and I know even now I could buy some heroin illegally online and have it drop through my door in less than 24 hours. Personally I'm unable to consume any psychoactive substance as I've learnt by now it sends me down a path that gets harder to return from every time, but I believe all drugs should be made legal, and all drug problems should be handed over to the health system rather than the justice system.
chasd00 3y ago
If an addict test their drugs and the results come back fail are they going to shrug and throw them away? I don't see an addict throwing away any drug they have in hand no matter what the test says.
- hankchinaski 3y ago
  It’s probably more useful for raves and parties where people can see if they are getting ripped off or ingesting something nasty
- omnicognate 3y ago
  Frequently yes, because the people consuming illegal drugs are actual human beings rather than stereotyped zombies, and in many cases aren't even addicts.
- the_other 3y ago
  Firstly, no “addict” wants to die from their addiction. Second, “addicts” is a tiny subset of “drug users”. “Drug users” would benefit from poison and allergen warnings, just like “food users”.
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    > Second, “addicts” is a tiny subset of “drug users” Tiny? Does not sound believable, especially since they are explicitly excluding marijuana. If I was to give my totally uneducated guess I would give something like 40-50%
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      I'm not an expert by any stretch, but it probably varies greatly by drug. I know a lot of people who have done LSD, shrooms or MDMA. Those aren't even all physically addictive and are more like experience drugs. Probably totally different for heroin or meth.
      - whimsicalism 3y ago
1234letshaveatw 3y ago
Only in Germany could they find a way to create rules for illegal activities. Their love for Fußball doesn't come close to their love for rules and regulation
- 7373737373 3y ago
  Even football has its official "laws of the game": https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-2022-23?l=en https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202... https://www.dfb.de/fileadmin/_dfbdam/271144-Fussballregeln_22_23_GESAMT_online_einzels_10_22.pdf https://www.dfb.de/fileadmin/_dfbdam/271144-Fussballregeln_2...
javajosh 3y ago
This is actually pretty great both for recreational users of things like cocaine and heroin, but also for people looking to use cheaper illegal drugs to manage a mental health condition - I'm thinking specifically of ecstasy and ketamine (for depression) and amphetamine (for adhd). To have a trusted test of quality would take away a lot of the terror from people already dealing with hard-to-manage emotions.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  But why would I pay street prices when I can get it with a recipe for 5 bucks?
  - javajosh 3y ago
    Note to english speakers, "recipe" is "prescription" in German. You may be talking about amphetamine? They don't prescribe it, afaik, and I don't think ketamine is legal (for humans).
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      I'm bipolar with ADHD, living in Germany. I've had ketamine therapy and currently have a prescription for Elvanse.
IceHegel 3y ago
This screams late empire to me. The whole liberalization idea is extremely regressive. The high functioning and rich bathe their brain in some nice chemicals while others OD or become homeless zombies because they can’t self-regulate. Does no one else find it a little weird that durning the period of harm reduction, decriminalization, and legalization drug deaths have increased each year without fail?
- kranke155 3y ago
  What? Where did harm reduction and decriminalisation lead to increased drug deaths? Absolutely not the case in Portugal.
  - IceHegel 3y ago
    I've compiled some data. Regarding Portugal (which decriminalized all drugs in 2001), according to the Drug Policy Foundation, a pro-legalization advocacy group, drug deaths initially dropped (2003-2010) but have since returned to pre-legalization levels(2015+). https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... In the United States on the other hand, the number of drug-involved overdose deaths increased from 20,000 in 2000 to 106,000 in 2021. https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd... Of course there are several US specific factors that contributed to the 5x increase (prescription opioids -> fentanyl), but if you allow yourself to imagine that not everyone can set sensible limits for themselves - then liberalization reveals itself as rather selfish.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      From your first source, directly contradicting your interpretation of what it says: "In the first five years after the reforms, drug deaths dropped dramatically. They rose slightly in the following years, before returning to 2005 levels in 2011, with only 10 drug overdose deaths recorded in that year. Since 2011, drug deaths have risen again but remain below 2001 levels (when there were 76 recorded deaths)." The point of de-criminalization is that people that "can't set limits for themselves" are treated as patients, not criminals.
graypegg 3y ago
Quite smart. From the headline I thought this was going to be officially sanctioned sources of drugs. (Drugs must pass thru some quality-control system set up by the government before being sold?) Which is clearly just the “high end” market, and the cheap many-times-cut drugs sold on the black market remain on the “low end” side. Rather, it seems like this is setting up testing for CONSUMERS, that can come in, and ask if their sample meets new standards set by the government for the drug they want tested. A bit more formal than the music festival drug test tent. The English title here on HN is kind of confusing. “Germany wants to introduce free analysis of drugs nationwide“ might be better than “quality control” (which implies factory production to me) (Reading a translation, so take my opinion with a grain of bath-salts)
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  From what I understood of the article, they're not introducing any "free analysis", they want to lift the ban on labs already doing these tests.
  - licebmi__at__ 3y ago
    I’m not sure if that’s the case. I just saw the news about the state of berlin performing this free analysis with the only condition to attend a talk about safe consumption
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  Agreed. Anecdotally, my buddy's wife had a really bad experience, because her weed was laced with something. This is the main reason I would love to see some regulation of drug trade ( edit: some clarification may needed; legalize and then ensure it is clean and it is what it says on the container ). Not that it is panacea. Anecdotally, IL has legalized weed and edibles are extremely inconsistent in terms of what they contain ( it says it should x, but it can easily be 2x or .05x -- it is infuriating given really high tax on those ). Still, I believe it is a step forward.
  - bdavisx 3y ago
weinzierl 3y ago
The planned Cannabis legalization by the same health minister also kind of goes in the same direction. From what I understand only homegrown Cannabis can be sold and that only by privately organized clubs with very limited permanent member numbers. Also the number of plants one can grow is limited. It is designed to keep professionally produced Cannabis out of the legal market. If this legalization can shut down the illegal market is doubtful in my opinion.
- tfourb 3y ago
  According to the plans (not actually law yet): - private citizens will be able to grow a limited number (I think 5?) of plants, with the produce used only for their own consumption. Passing it to others will still be illegal (though consuming it with others on private property would be very unlikely to be prosecuted). - non-profit "Cannabis Clubs" can grow a limited number of plants per member (again, I think 5). Membership is limited to max 500 and members have to be 18+ years old. Clubs can't be near playgrounds/schools/etc. and can only hand out a limited amount (I think 30g) per month to each member, who can't consume it on or near the club's property. The weed also is limited to a max THC and the club's properties have to be secured to a high standard.
  - account42 3y ago
    Very German to make up completely arbitrary rules like this rather than just legalizing it outright.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      There are valid considerations at play regarding keeping weed away from minors. There is also a legal issue because Cannabis is still classed as a controlled drug by the European Union and all-out legalization is not something that the German government can actually decide without corresponding EU-wide legalization. And that won't happen, because there are still a number of EU-member states that firmly oppose legalization.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
DrThunder 3y ago
Legalizing this stuff needs to come with robust required therapy. The idea that you just legalize it and all of the sudden things improve is pure myth. Leave it to politicians to take the easy way out though.
- tfourb 3y ago
  The proposed change is not about legalization of these drugs. They will remain illegal. It simply allows federal states to pass laws and regulations governing publicly accessible (and presumably free of charge) test facilities where consumers of certain illegal drugs can test them for unwanted ingredients. The idea is that this will limit the number of accidental overdoses and poisonings and put pressure on the black market to reduce potentially harmful and undesirable ingredients. It is a public health measure and I don't see a real downside to it.
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    It's the same idea. You're allowing addicts to continue being addicts while claiming testing centers using up tax dollars are a fix. They're not. IF they're allowing this they are not enforcing anything that will stop dealers. This is just as ridiculous the safe shoot up spaces that only ruin the area they're in and make it unlivable for anyone but addicts who just die from overdoses anyway. Allowing someone to live slightly longer without helping them overcome the addiction isn't compassionate, it's lazy enabling of the addiction. It's something politicians use to get votes and pat themselves on the back.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      This is such a nihilistic, fucked-up view of the world. Is this proposed policy the silver bullet to stop addiction and drug abuse? No, clearly not. Will it help alleviate some suffering? Almost certainly so. Just to point out some of the more obvious rebuttals to your "arguments": - not all drug users are addicts. Not even heroin is instantly addictive. Recreational, non-addicted users of illegal drugs benefit extremely from "drug checks," as does the public health system which would have to deal with accidental overdoses and poisonings otherwise. - Not all drug addicts have dysfunctional lives. Plenty of people live decades with their addiction while also holding down jobs, having families, etc. Is that ideal? No, most certainly not in most cases. Would "drug checks" lower the risk of these drug users? Yes. - Not all drug addicts that experience dysfunctional lives as a consequence of their drug use will die from overdosing. In fact, drug checks would make that more unlikely. - Drug check facilities would be a venue for drug users to get into contact with the public health care system and to find ways out of their addiction. Again, it will not resolve the problems associated with the misuse of drugs, which has existed literally forever (even animals get purposely drunk on fermenting fruits). But that is neither the point of the proposed policy and you have so far contributed nothing to this discussion.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
This is one of the flaws with prohibition... you lose all effective authority to regulate the prohibited product. We'll see how well it works in Germany, but in the United States, such a program would plainly be nothing more than an intelligence asset for cops. For that reason dealers would order their customers to refrain from using it, and would exact retribution upon those who did. Besides, trailer park meth cooks aren't really capable of producing a safe, unadulterated product in measured doses. They don't have the competence or the resources to do that. But addicts still need the product regardless. Do you even get to keep your meth if the state-run quality control lab says that it has too much rat poison? Why would an addict risk getting it confiscated for their own safety? Just legalize the crap and sell it out of liquor stores in plain retail packaging manufactured by pharmaceutical corporations who have some cap on the profits they're allowed to earn over cost.
tweiolkj42p34fa 3y ago
[flagged]
yboris 3y ago
A must-read book on the topic: Legalize This by Douglas Husak https://www.versobooks.com/products/1795-legalize-this https://www.versobooks.com/products/1795-legalize-this It argues that all drugs should be decriminalized. Written by a philosopher who spent many years working on this subject. Briefly: anyone who is going to jail deserves to know why, and there is no satisfactory answer that can be given in the case of drug possession or use.
- hkwerf 3y ago
  In the case of drug possession, it can, though, if the amounts are sufficient to indicate towards dealing or production of drugs.
- RodGodKiller 3y ago
  All drugs were decriminalized in Portugal in the early 2000s. It worked amazingly well!
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    Yeah, that's it. We have a working model that has provided stunning results for decades. Even back in 2001, there was a strong scientific basis for decriminalization, and treating drug use as a public health issue rather than a moral one. With the sharp rise in opiate and fentanyl recently, it's alarming how backward the conversation still is. It's almost as if shadowy powerful forces are real content with prohibition... Radical measures are necessary, now, just as they were in 2001 in Portugal. People are dying, families are being torn apart, and it's all so heart-breakingly unnecessary.
  - hash872 3y ago
    This is a myth that is endlessly repeated and will apparently never die. If you are caught possessing illegal drugs in Portugal, you are required to go in front a disciplinary tribunal that can mandate drug rehab and impose fines. If you refuse to attend rehab, they can jail you. They can impose a whole host of other legal consequences, including loss of professional license, passport, they can mandate that you're not allowed to hang out with certain people, etc. Drug dealing is still 'lock you up in jail' illegal. Saying drugs are decriminalized in Portugal is like saying speeding everywhere is decriminalized. They moved legal sanctions to an administrative court, but they're still sanctions. I invite you to read this whole page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Laws_and_regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Laws_a...
ginko 3y ago
This has been possible in Austria since the late 90s. https://checkyourdrugs.at https://checkyourdrugs.at
carlosjobim 3y ago
This is my reply to a comment that was deleted here: As always, the article is somewhat biased by the journalists and their misguided perspective: as in that they are probably using the term "drug abusers" to mean anybody using any drug, and not for what we think of as drug abusers, such as crack heads, meth heads etc. This is not some social program from the government to help homeless use more drugs. It is simply lifting a ban on lab testing of recreational drugs. What it means is that people who illegally purchase drugs can now have them tested to verify what they contain - without the lab breaking any law. Maybe it's a software developer buying some LSD on the darknet. Maybe it's a salesman buying cocaine on the street. There are already people and companies offering these drug quality testing services, so the law would allow them to operate in the open - as far as I understood the article.
Tenoke 3y ago
People are reporting that if you bring a bunch of substances they only at best check 1 if you are one of the first and that there's an absurd limit of only 12-40 (I believe) total samples checked per week across all users for Berlin which is nearly nothing. I hope this gets expanded, and the inability to check drugs or to get e.g. naxolone in Germany is absurd, but as far as I can tell this might be so far just for P.R.
local_crmdgeon 3y ago
Just sell the drugs from the government. Make it super lame, and medicalized. Cut off the funding for the glorification of drug use in art and music, and make it like the junkie DMV. Sell perfectly pure, precisely diluted, heroin/coke/whatever and then make the addicts stay in the room until they're presentable. Don't let them take needles etc out. Anything else is a half measure that keeps all of the problems with the black markets and all of the social impact of addiction.
marcell 3y ago
I will take the contrarian position here. This is bad policy and shouldn’t happen. First, making recreational drugs illegal is a good policy. Drugs are addictive. They intentionally disrupt your normal brain function. Some people are more affected than others and commit crimes while taking drugs. They disrupt the normal functioning of society. The more people that take drugs, the worse it is for society. Look at the opioid epidemic for a recent US example. Second, the government should not send mixed signals about drugs. It should not at once ban them, and also facilitate their “safe” consumption. People cannot understand this mixed message. If drugs are bad and shouldn’t be consumed, why is there an official channel for “safely” consuming them? The result of this double think will likely be further moves toward legalization of drugs, their subsequent proliferation through society, and the further decay of society as a result.
- jonplackett 3y ago
  But keep smoking and drinking alcohol. Nothing to see here.
- ragazzina 3y ago
  >Drugs are addictive. They intentionally disrupt your normal brain function. Some people are more affected than others and commit crimes while taking drugs. This also applies to alcohol. How do you feel towards it?
  - pixelpoet 3y ago
    So many people use the phrase "drugs and alcohol", which makes as much sense as saying "meat and beef". The thing those people never want to admit is, they LOVE drugs (coffee, sex, TV, alcohol, tobacco, antidepressants, benzos, ...) but they don't want to acknowledge that they are first class drugs too, because they view "drug users" as losers, because they don't like those drugs in particular.
  - marcell 3y ago
    Alcohol is also bad. Unlike other recreational drugs, we have thousands of years of tradition in society in how to regulate its consumption and handle the negative effects. This includes social traditions, social pressures, and government rules. The rules go down to the specifics of the hours you can buy it, where, how you can carry it around, etc. Things like “alcoholic” are social tropes that are frowned upon and have been for centuries. Maintaining the status quo is very different from changing it. This applies to drug consumption.
Traubenfuchs 3y ago
We have that in Austria, at least at Vienna. You can bring your pills and powders to an organization called CheckIt! and they will inform you of what exactly was in your samples. They are also sometimes at big parties and raves where people can immediately get tested what they bought, with them announcing unexpected or dangerous results via the loud speaker system. Not just not offering this, but keeping it illegal, is shameful.
Nickersf 3y ago
I wish our governments would spend time and effort to educated and try to dissuade people from ingesting toxic chemicals in the first place. Maybe use their power to influence positive change by encouraging healthier living.
steve76 3y ago
[dead]
jacooper 3y ago
Yay more people addicted to drugs, and instead of pushing them to get away from addiction, we tell them the drug is safe, Enjoy it!

195 points by tfourb 3y ago

Sounds extremely reasonable.

tl;dr: The German minister for health wants to an existing law that bans the provision of quality control service for illegal drugs. This would allow federal states to offer "drug checking" services to consumers of illegal drug, reducing risks of accidental overdoses and similar side effects of drug usage.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

foo_foo_can_do 3y ago

The Netherlands already has anonymous drug testing centers in a few cities https://www.jellinek.nl/english/drug-testing-service/ https://www.jellinek.nl/english/drug-testing-service/

tiku 3y ago

In the Netherlands it already is possible to test your drugs legally. https://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/geintegreerde-voorzieningen/drugstestservice/ https://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/geintegreerde-voorzieningen/dru... We had some issues with white heroin a few years ago, it was sold to tourists as cocaine or something else, can't remember.

dmbche 3y ago
It's also the case in Canada, I know most festivals have a tent to test your stuff.
_trampeltier 3y ago
Switzerland too.
MacsHeadroom 3y ago
In the U.S. the venue, performers, and promoters of an event where testing is performed are presumed guilty of distribution of illegal substances and subject to a civil penalty of at least $250,000 and up to 2x their gross receipts (income) for the event. Thankfully the official policy of the U.S. Department of Justice has been to not enforce this law since 2018, largely due to the Opioid Epidemic becoming a top public health crisis.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> We had some issues with white heroin a few years ago, it was sold to tourists as cocaine or something else, can't remember. Thats pretty evil

dgan 3y ago

While everyone is talking about heroin/cocaïne, i think big winners will be steroid users, finally a perfect way to assess gear quality

Shermanium 3y ago
"Herbal drugs such as cannabis , i.e. marijuana and hashish, or medicines, anabolic steroids or sexual enhancers are not examined."
- dgan 3y ago
  :( thanks for information
- newsclues 3y ago
  It's crazy that cannabis users can't have their drugs tested to ensure purity, safety and to confirm they aren't laced with other drugs. But mainly to ensure people aren't smoking dried plant matter with mold or other common problems.
  - rajamaka 3y ago
    Laced weed is so rare that the entire concept may as well be categorized as a myth.
    - permo-w 3y ago
      this may have been true before the rise of artificial cannabinoids, but it's not anymore
      - whimsicalism 3y ago
        Really? There was a vice documentary, but I have not seen any evidence that a significant proportion of weed is laced with synthetic cannabinoids.
    - Mashimo 3y ago

keithnz 3y ago

here in NZ we have free legal drug testing https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/info/being-safer/party-drug-checking/ https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/info/being-safer/party-dru... which we encoded into law https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2021/0050/latest/whole.html https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2021/0050/latest/whol...

bottom999mottob 3y ago

Now bring this policy to the States.

elil17 3y ago
You can legally buy drug test kits here, and I believe some community organizations give them out.
wombatpm 3y ago
I’m sure some enterprising DA will find a way to put dealers away for longer by convicting them of violating product safety and fraud i.e. you can’t sell something as heroin if it’s less than 75% pure
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  DAs in major cities don't enforce drug laws anymore. It's supposed to be compassionate but is destroying the Tenderloin and areas like it. Just have the government distribute the drugs directly. These little hacks around the system are stupid and harmful. Treat public drug use outside of your shitty government office as a crime, and drug use inside as 100% legal and a medical issue.

standardUser 3y ago

This is just more political gymnastics that only serves to ensure the continued dominance of black markets and all of the violence and death those black markets bring. Any substances widely consumed by people should be regulated and tested before they are sold to the public. Even the substances some people don't like other people consuming.

Mashimo 3y ago
> that only serves to ensure the continued dominance of black markets Well, no, not only. It also serves the consumers. > Any substances widely consumed by people should be regulated and tested before they are sold to the public Agreed.
osigurdson 3y ago
I suspect it isn't that they merely "don't like" other people consuming. They also probably think that increased access (supply) may result in increased demand. I'm not sure, but I do feel that if hard drugs were available at every 7-11 for example, there might be more junkies. Every addict is an incredible waste of human potential.
- olejorgenb 3y ago
  > may result in increased demand Likely IMO > there might be more junkies Unlikely, the myth of "one-taste of some drugs = instant addiction" need to die.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mathieuh 3y ago
  Is anyone suggesting hard drugs be available at 7-11? I believe all drugs should be legal, but that there should of course be checks and regulations on who has access to the harder drugs that research has shown can ruin people's lives. I say this as a formerly-active heroin addict: the hardest part of my time as an active addict was not having heroin. I was almost entirely functional, I had a full-time job the entire time, but if I was unable to get any for a couple of days it sent me completely spiralling. If had a doctor's note showing I was an active heroin addict which would allow me to purchase heroin OTC at a chemist it would have improved my life immeasurably and made it much easier for me to quit. After all, it was only ever a day or two before I could buy more, and I know even now I could buy some heroin illegally online and have it drop through my door in less than 24 hours. Personally I'm unable to consume any psychoactive substance as I've learnt by now it sends me down a path that gets harder to return from every time, but I believe all drugs should be made legal, and all drug problems should be handed over to the health system rather than the justice system.

chasd00 3y ago

If an addict test their drugs and the results come back fail are they going to shrug and throw them away? I don't see an addict throwing away any drug they have in hand no matter what the test says.

hankchinaski 3y ago
It’s probably more useful for raves and parties where people can see if they are getting ripped off or ingesting something nasty
omnicognate 3y ago
Frequently yes, because the people consuming illegal drugs are actual human beings rather than stereotyped zombies, and in many cases aren't even addicts.
the_other 3y ago
Firstly, no “addict” wants to die from their addiction. Second, “addicts” is a tiny subset of “drug users”. “Drug users” would benefit from poison and allergen warnings, just like “food users”.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  > Second, “addicts” is a tiny subset of “drug users” Tiny? Does not sound believable, especially since they are explicitly excluding marijuana. If I was to give my totally uneducated guess I would give something like 40-50%
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    I'm not an expert by any stretch, but it probably varies greatly by drug. I know a lot of people who have done LSD, shrooms or MDMA. Those aren't even all physically addictive and are more like experience drugs. Probably totally different for heroin or meth.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago

1234letshaveatw 3y ago

Only in Germany could they find a way to create rules for illegal activities. Their love for Fußball doesn't come close to their love for rules and regulation

7373737373 3y ago
Even football has its official "laws of the game": https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-2022-23?l=en https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202... https://www.dfb.de/fileadmin/_dfbdam/271144-Fussballregeln_22_23_GESAMT_online_einzels_10_22.pdf https://www.dfb.de/fileadmin/_dfbdam/271144-Fussballregeln_2...

javajosh 3y ago

This is actually pretty great both for recreational users of things like cocaine and heroin, but also for people looking to use cheaper illegal drugs to manage a mental health condition - I'm thinking specifically of ecstasy and ketamine (for depression) and amphetamine (for adhd). To have a trusted test of quality would take away a lot of the terror from people already dealing with hard-to-manage emotions.

Zetobal 3y ago
But why would I pay street prices when I can get it with a recipe for 5 bucks?
- javajosh 3y ago
  Note to english speakers, "recipe" is "prescription" in German. You may be talking about amphetamine? They don't prescribe it, afaik, and I don't think ketamine is legal (for humans).
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    I'm bipolar with ADHD, living in Germany. I've had ketamine therapy and currently have a prescription for Elvanse.

IceHegel 3y ago

This screams late empire to me. The whole liberalization idea is extremely regressive. The high functioning and rich bathe their brain in some nice chemicals while others OD or become homeless zombies because they can’t self-regulate. Does no one else find it a little weird that durning the period of harm reduction, decriminalization, and legalization drug deaths have increased each year without fail?

kranke155 3y ago
What? Where did harm reduction and decriminalisation lead to increased drug deaths? Absolutely not the case in Portugal.
- IceHegel 3y ago
  I've compiled some data. Regarding Portugal (which decriminalized all drugs in 2001), according to the Drug Policy Foundation, a pro-legalization advocacy group, drug deaths initially dropped (2003-2010) but have since returned to pre-legalization levels(2015+). https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... In the United States on the other hand, the number of drug-involved overdose deaths increased from 20,000 in 2000 to 106,000 in 2021. https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd... Of course there are several US specific factors that contributed to the 5x increase (prescription opioids -> fentanyl), but if you allow yourself to imagine that not everyone can set sensible limits for themselves - then liberalization reveals itself as rather selfish.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    From your first source, directly contradicting your interpretation of what it says: "In the first five years after the reforms, drug deaths dropped dramatically. They rose slightly in the following years, before returning to 2005 levels in 2011, with only 10 drug overdose deaths recorded in that year. Since 2011, drug deaths have risen again but remain below 2001 levels (when there were 76 recorded deaths)." The point of de-criminalization is that people that "can't set limits for themselves" are treated as patients, not criminals.

graypegg 3y ago

Quite smart. From the headline I thought this was going to be officially sanctioned sources of drugs. (Drugs must pass thru some quality-control system set up by the government before being sold?) Which is clearly just the “high end” market, and the cheap many-times-cut drugs sold on the black market remain on the “low end” side. Rather, it seems like this is setting up testing for CONSUMERS, that can come in, and ask if their sample meets new standards set by the government for the drug they want tested. A bit more formal than the music festival drug test tent. The English title here on HN is kind of confusing. “Germany wants to introduce free analysis of drugs nationwide“ might be better than “quality control” (which implies factory production to me) (Reading a translation, so take my opinion with a grain of bath-salts)

carlosjobim 3y ago
From what I understood of the article, they're not introducing any "free analysis", they want to lift the ban on labs already doing these tests.
- licebmi__at__ 3y ago
  I’m not sure if that’s the case. I just saw the news about the state of berlin performing this free analysis with the only condition to attend a talk about safe consumption
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
Agreed. Anecdotally, my buddy's wife had a really bad experience, because her weed was laced with something. This is the main reason I would love to see some regulation of drug trade ( edit: some clarification may needed; legalize and then ensure it is clean and it is what it says on the container ). Not that it is panacea. Anecdotally, IL has legalized weed and edibles are extremely inconsistent in terms of what they contain ( it says it should x, but it can easily be 2x or .05x -- it is infuriating given really high tax on those ). Still, I believe it is a step forward.
- bdavisx 3y ago

weinzierl 3y ago

The planned Cannabis legalization by the same health minister also kind of goes in the same direction. From what I understand only homegrown Cannabis can be sold and that only by privately organized clubs with very limited permanent member numbers. Also the number of plants one can grow is limited. It is designed to keep professionally produced Cannabis out of the legal market. If this legalization can shut down the illegal market is doubtful in my opinion.

tfourb 3y ago
According to the plans (not actually law yet): - private citizens will be able to grow a limited number (I think 5?) of plants, with the produce used only for their own consumption. Passing it to others will still be illegal (though consuming it with others on private property would be very unlikely to be prosecuted). - non-profit "Cannabis Clubs" can grow a limited number of plants per member (again, I think 5). Membership is limited to max 500 and members have to be 18+ years old. Clubs can't be near playgrounds/schools/etc. and can only hand out a limited amount (I think 30g) per month to each member, who can't consume it on or near the club's property. The weed also is limited to a max THC and the club's properties have to be secured to a high standard.
- account42 3y ago
  Very German to make up completely arbitrary rules like this rather than just legalizing it outright.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    There are valid considerations at play regarding keeping weed away from minors. There is also a legal issue because Cannabis is still classed as a controlled drug by the European Union and all-out legalization is not something that the German government can actually decide without corresponding EU-wide legalization. And that won't happen, because there are still a number of EU-member states that firmly oppose legalization.
ajmurmann 3y ago

DrThunder 3y ago

Legalizing this stuff needs to come with robust required therapy. The idea that you just legalize it and all of the sudden things improve is pure myth. Leave it to politicians to take the easy way out though.

tfourb 3y ago
The proposed change is not about legalization of these drugs. They will remain illegal. It simply allows federal states to pass laws and regulations governing publicly accessible (and presumably free of charge) test facilities where consumers of certain illegal drugs can test them for unwanted ingredients. The idea is that this will limit the number of accidental overdoses and poisonings and put pressure on the black market to reduce potentially harmful and undesirable ingredients. It is a public health measure and I don't see a real downside to it.
- DrThunder 3y ago
  It's the same idea. You're allowing addicts to continue being addicts while claiming testing centers using up tax dollars are a fix. They're not. IF they're allowing this they are not enforcing anything that will stop dealers. This is just as ridiculous the safe shoot up spaces that only ruin the area they're in and make it unlivable for anyone but addicts who just die from overdoses anyway. Allowing someone to live slightly longer without helping them overcome the addiction isn't compassionate, it's lazy enabling of the addiction. It's something politicians use to get votes and pat themselves on the back.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    This is such a nihilistic, fucked-up view of the world. Is this proposed policy the silver bullet to stop addiction and drug abuse? No, clearly not. Will it help alleviate some suffering? Almost certainly so. Just to point out some of the more obvious rebuttals to your "arguments": - not all drug users are addicts. Not even heroin is instantly addictive. Recreational, non-addicted users of illegal drugs benefit extremely from "drug checks," as does the public health system which would have to deal with accidental overdoses and poisonings otherwise. - Not all drug addicts have dysfunctional lives. Plenty of people live decades with their addiction while also holding down jobs, having families, etc. Is that ideal? No, most certainly not in most cases. Would "drug checks" lower the risk of these drug users? Yes. - Not all drug addicts that experience dysfunctional lives as a consequence of their drug use will die from overdosing. In fact, drug checks would make that more unlikely. - Drug check facilities would be a venue for drug users to get into contact with the public health care system and to find ways out of their addiction. Again, it will not resolve the problems associated with the misuse of drugs, which has existed literally forever (even animals get purposely drunk on fermenting fruits). But that is neither the point of the proposed policy and you have so far contributed nothing to this discussion.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

This is one of the flaws with prohibition... you lose all effective authority to regulate the prohibited product. We'll see how well it works in Germany, but in the United States, such a program would plainly be nothing more than an intelligence asset for cops. For that reason dealers would order their customers to refrain from using it, and would exact retribution upon those who did. Besides, trailer park meth cooks aren't really capable of producing a safe, unadulterated product in measured doses. They don't have the competence or the resources to do that. But addicts still need the product regardless. Do you even get to keep your meth if the state-run quality control lab says that it has too much rat poison? Why would an addict risk getting it confiscated for their own safety? Just legalize the crap and sell it out of liquor stores in plain retail packaging manufactured by pharmaceutical corporations who have some cap on the profits they're allowed to earn over cost.

tweiolkj42p34fa 3y ago

[flagged]

yboris 3y ago

A must-read book on the topic: Legalize This by Douglas Husak https://www.versobooks.com/products/1795-legalize-this https://www.versobooks.com/products/1795-legalize-this It argues that all drugs should be decriminalized. Written by a philosopher who spent many years working on this subject. Briefly: anyone who is going to jail deserves to know why, and there is no satisfactory answer that can be given in the case of drug possession or use.

hkwerf 3y ago
In the case of drug possession, it can, though, if the amounts are sufficient to indicate towards dealing or production of drugs.
RodGodKiller 3y ago
All drugs were decriminalized in Portugal in the early 2000s. It worked amazingly well!
- mandmandam 3y ago
  Yeah, that's it. We have a working model that has provided stunning results for decades. Even back in 2001, there was a strong scientific basis for decriminalization, and treating drug use as a public health issue rather than a moral one. With the sharp rise in opiate and fentanyl recently, it's alarming how backward the conversation still is. It's almost as if shadowy powerful forces are real content with prohibition... Radical measures are necessary, now, just as they were in 2001 in Portugal. People are dying, families are being torn apart, and it's all so heart-breakingly unnecessary.
- hash872 3y ago
  This is a myth that is endlessly repeated and will apparently never die. If you are caught possessing illegal drugs in Portugal, you are required to go in front a disciplinary tribunal that can mandate drug rehab and impose fines. If you refuse to attend rehab, they can jail you. They can impose a whole host of other legal consequences, including loss of professional license, passport, they can mandate that you're not allowed to hang out with certain people, etc. Drug dealing is still 'lock you up in jail' illegal. Saying drugs are decriminalized in Portugal is like saying speeding everywhere is decriminalized. They moved legal sanctions to an administrative court, but they're still sanctions. I invite you to read this whole page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Laws_and_regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Laws_a...

ginko 3y ago

This has been possible in Austria since the late 90s. https://checkyourdrugs.at https://checkyourdrugs.at

carlosjobim 3y ago

This is my reply to a comment that was deleted here: As always, the article is somewhat biased by the journalists and their misguided perspective: as in that they are probably using the term "drug abusers" to mean anybody using any drug, and not for what we think of as drug abusers, such as crack heads, meth heads etc. This is not some social program from the government to help homeless use more drugs. It is simply lifting a ban on lab testing of recreational drugs. What it means is that people who illegally purchase drugs can now have them tested to verify what they contain - without the lab breaking any law. Maybe it's a software developer buying some LSD on the darknet. Maybe it's a salesman buying cocaine on the street. There are already people and companies offering these drug quality testing services, so the law would allow them to operate in the open - as far as I understood the article.

Tenoke 3y ago

People are reporting that if you bring a bunch of substances they only at best check 1 if you are one of the first and that there's an absurd limit of only 12-40 (I believe) total samples checked per week across all users for Berlin which is nearly nothing. I hope this gets expanded, and the inability to check drugs or to get e.g. naxolone in Germany is absurd, but as far as I can tell this might be so far just for P.R.

local_crmdgeon 3y ago

Just sell the drugs from the government. Make it super lame, and medicalized. Cut off the funding for the glorification of drug use in art and music, and make it like the junkie DMV. Sell perfectly pure, precisely diluted, heroin/coke/whatever and then make the addicts stay in the room until they're presentable. Don't let them take needles etc out. Anything else is a half measure that keeps all of the problems with the black markets and all of the social impact of addiction.

marcell 3y ago

I will take the contrarian position here. This is bad policy and shouldn’t happen. First, making recreational drugs illegal is a good policy. Drugs are addictive. They intentionally disrupt your normal brain function. Some people are more affected than others and commit crimes while taking drugs. They disrupt the normal functioning of society. The more people that take drugs, the worse it is for society. Look at the opioid epidemic for a recent US example. Second, the government should not send mixed signals about drugs. It should not at once ban them, and also facilitate their “safe” consumption. People cannot understand this mixed message. If drugs are bad and shouldn’t be consumed, why is there an official channel for “safely” consuming them? The result of this double think will likely be further moves toward legalization of drugs, their subsequent proliferation through society, and the further decay of society as a result.

jonplackett 3y ago
But keep smoking and drinking alcohol. Nothing to see here.
ragazzina 3y ago
>Drugs are addictive. They intentionally disrupt your normal brain function. Some people are more affected than others and commit crimes while taking drugs. This also applies to alcohol. How do you feel towards it?
- pixelpoet 3y ago
  So many people use the phrase "drugs and alcohol", which makes as much sense as saying "meat and beef". The thing those people never want to admit is, they LOVE drugs (coffee, sex, TV, alcohol, tobacco, antidepressants, benzos, ...) but they don't want to acknowledge that they are first class drugs too, because they view "drug users" as losers, because they don't like those drugs in particular.
- marcell 3y ago
  Alcohol is also bad. Unlike other recreational drugs, we have thousands of years of tradition in society in how to regulate its consumption and handle the negative effects. This includes social traditions, social pressures, and government rules. The rules go down to the specifics of the hours you can buy it, where, how you can carry it around, etc. Things like “alcoholic” are social tropes that are frowned upon and have been for centuries. Maintaining the status quo is very different from changing it. This applies to drug consumption.

Traubenfuchs 3y ago

We have that in Austria, at least at Vienna. You can bring your pills and powders to an organization called CheckIt! and they will inform you of what exactly was in your samples. They are also sometimes at big parties and raves where people can immediately get tested what they bought, with them announcing unexpected or dangerous results via the loud speaker system. Not just not offering this, but keeping it illegal, is shameful.

Nickersf 3y ago

I wish our governments would spend time and effort to educated and try to dissuade people from ingesting toxic chemicals in the first place. Maybe use their power to influence positive change by encouraging healthier living.

steve76 3y ago

[dead]

jacooper 3y ago

Yay more people addicted to drugs, and instead of pushing them to get away from addiction, we tell them the drug is safe, Enjoy it!