10 ms·

Prison chess clubs helping rehabilitate inmates

160 points by mellosouls 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mensetmanusman 3y ago
My uncle has been in and out of prison for 30 years after his drunk dad sent him to jail as a 17 year old for writing a check in his dads name. The stupidest part is that the """"justice"""" system never trained him or let him learn to drive. So every time he gets out he has to go to impoverished city centers where he meets right back up with the groups that eventually get him back in prison. He could've made a fine career of being a truck driver if America wasn't so stupid. These types of articles are frustrating because it helps the public feel good about themselves when they have a decades long disaster rolling around with no change.
- tokai 3y ago
  Doesn't it only take a couple of weeks to get a drivers license in the US?
  - zikduruqe 3y ago
    No. You walk in and take a written test. If you pass, then you have to take a driving test. Assuming that you have a car. Or a friend with a car. Or money to rent a car. Assuming that you can find a car to drive, you will take a lap around the block to demonstrate that you can steer, stop and maybe parallel park. The barrier to entry is pretty low.
    - r2_pilot 3y ago
      Good luck renting a car without a driver's license.
      - mbg721 3y ago
        Driving schools will give in-car lessons to adults, and let you use their car for the test, for a fee; that's the form of "renting a car" that's useful for this case. In my state the requirements are looser for adults than for teenagers, under the assumption that adults are generally more responsible or have driven before.
    - mahathu 3y ago
      In Germany, you take individual driving lessons and group classes on traffic rules including a mandatory first aid class.
      - 11235813213455 3y ago
        in Holland, you get a bicycle and never regret it
        mahathu 3y ago
        That's even more based and walkabilitypilled.
        pdntspa 3y ago
        Holland is also pretty damn flat
        hindsightbias 3y ago
        Of the 50 states, we actually have one smaller than Holland.
        BariumBlue 3y ago
        Are you implying that the US is cursed, forever pathologically unable to have bikeable places, because it's too large? If only the US was smaller...
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        This is very common in the US, even though it is not typically mandated. Technically you can just go take the test if you're up to it, and some people do exactly that with no more training than they got from mom & dad. But a lot of kids take the classroom route. Not every parent wants to teach.
    - ROTMetro 3y ago
      You are required to take and pass paid courses to get a license in most states these days. It was a huge barrier to a lot of the guys in the halfway house. Just coordinating getting to these classes via the bus was a pain. Also, if you return 15 minutes late to the halfway house the US Marshals come pick you up and back to jail you go, so missing a bus has pretty steep consequences that make people avoid any additional bus trips such as getting to drivers training class (you are required to work so you have to risk the bus at least twice a day no matter what).
  - antisthenes 3y ago
    No. And definitely not for a CDL.
    - tokai 3y ago
      Just looked it up. The CDL is on average acquired over seven weeks. Not quite a couple of weeks, but not a long time either.
      - antisthenes 3y ago
        It costs several thousand dollars in fees and 7 weeks. That's a lot for an ex-convict.
  - Someone1234 3y ago
    With no driving experience? No… And they were talking about a commercial license anyway.
  - sporedro 3y ago
    You need to pass a road test which they are pretty picky with along with a written test. The written test had a lot of random crap you would never use imo. Honestly not too difficult but I imagine it might be for someone in and out of prison life. I don’t know much about prison/jail but I do agree it should focus on re-habilitation they should have systems to help you study and get a drivers license while in there for example.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  I always wondered why they wouldn't let inmates create value with their skills. Seemingly manual labor that could be automated by a bunch of Undergrad Engineers that wouldn't even qualify as a capstone project. I understand if you have offline computers. I understand if the computer needs to be behind a plexiglass wall and the mouse and keyboard need to be chained down. But quickly these will pay for themselves. Data Entry pays significantly more, I imagine there are plenty of white collar criminals with tech skills that could make $30-$100/hr. Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor. I can't see too many downsides other than the initial set up cost. Pretty sure the right side of the aisle will see the $$$ and approve. The left side should also see the $, but also know how humane and potentially rehabilitating.
  - jackmott42 3y ago
    If the prison system keeps ANY of the money you immediately get incentives for abuse and the unimprisoned may not like having their jobs taken by lowball prison laborl
  - hzay 3y ago
    > Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor. The inmate is also getting dignity and practice at regular life, which might convert a % of them to non-criminal life (I forgot the word for it).
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      There is not much dignity in being forced to work while you are only allowed to keep 20% of what you earn.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        After rent and food the average person gets a lot less than 20%.
- brvsft 3y ago
  The fact that your uncle never bothered trying to pass a driving test isn't the justice system's fault. He's not a victim or puppet without any agency in his life.
  - e-clinton 3y ago
    I’d argue that it is. The system is suppose to be helping rehabilitate inmates so that they fit better in society…. The focus needs to be helping inmates see how they can otherwise create value.
    - quacked 3y ago
      Why do you think the system is supposed to rehabilitate? I would argue that the system is supposed to separate people who cannot be trusted in society from the rest of us. I think the major failure of the justice system (apart from corruption and dishonesty) is the failure to keep prisoners safe from one another. Rehabilitation should happen on your own recognizance, the system should exist to keep you exiled from people who didn't commit your crime. (I do believe that rehabilitation, or more accurately in the case of people who never were instilled with a moral compass, "habilitation", is often possible and always desirable, but I don't think the system itself can or should be entrusted with that responsibility. It should just make the conditions for habilitation possible, and then outside society can intervene as it will.)
      - prottog 3y ago
        > Rehabilitation should happen on your own recognizance I agree. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. There is still legitimate debate on how much role society has to play in making sure it's as nice as possible for the horse to get to water. Obviously in GP's uncle's case an injustice was done to him (by his father, it sounds like), but it is still up to him as an adult to become a productive member of society. I like the way some put it, when talking about people from troubled backgrounds (whether from abusive parents, mental issues, what have you): it wasn't your fault, but it's still your responsibility to deal with it, once you are an adult.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  The whole idea of putting a man in a box with other criminals so he can "think about what he did" seems like a complete failure, besides the fact that he's kept away from the public so he can't commit more crimes. It's one thing when someone has life in prison without the possibility of parole, but if a man is eventually going to be let out, what good does it really do to prevent him from being able to function on the outside? Basically nothing, as far as I can tell. He is destined to be destitute and possibly go back to a life of criminality. People don't want money and resources to go towards training "violent murderers who didn't do anything to deserve what they're getting", but then what else do you expect other than that you're deferring the criminality to a later date? The odds are not in your favor that the prisoner be reformed by the time he gets out. Reforming criminals, and I mean actual reformation and not the horseshit we consider reformation today, is a cost society should bear for its own good so that prison actually means something. Why let prisoners out when they are likely destined to go right back to prison?
  - tiedieconderoga 3y ago
    >what good does it really do to prevent him from being able to function on the outside? From whose perspective? Part of the problem is that some powerful groups are incentived to keep people coming back to prison. Private prisons reap profits, politicians get an easy way to drive fear in their constituents, telcos can charge an arm and a leg for phone calls, commissaries clean up by charging exorbitant prices for toothpaste and ramen, etc. Until we start connecting positive outcomes for those groups to positive outcomes for the prisoners, it'll always be an uphill battle. As Upton Sinclair used to say, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
    - masklinn 3y ago
      Keeping people in prison forever is also a very “law and order” position which plays well with certain groups, and is very easy to sell: you don’t need any sort of nuance, you don’t face empathetic conflicts, etc…
    - iamthirsty 3y ago
- conradev 3y ago
  My uncle is also in prison and I also don't like these types of articles. I much prefer writing from prisoners themselves: https://prisonjournalismproject.org/category/perspective/ https://prisonjournalismproject.org/category/perspective/
- 11235813213455 3y ago
  Your uncle should definitely not be in prison, but he should get his car confiscated and get a bike, legs-powered
  - some_random 3y ago
    He doesn't have a car, that's part of the problem
- doh 3y ago
  I am involved with a non-profit that provides ISA (income share agreements) to convicts to get licensed truckers [0]. The founder started it due to similar experiences as you described and changed the lives of many people already. Wish this was institutionalized rather than being done as singular organization, but it's a start. [0] https://freeworld.org https://freeworld.org
- Jiro 3y ago
  >after his drunk dad sent him to jail as a 17 year old for writing a check in his dads name. This lacks the details for me to know whether I should be sympathetic or not. Are you saying that he forged the check for some reason related to his dad being drunk, like his dad not buying any food, or that his dad agreed to let him write the check and then complained to the police anyway because he was drunk?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    Does whether you're sympathetic to their situation at 17 affect how well they should be rehabilitated, in your view, or are you just curious? Genuine question.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    It is difficult to imagine someone not being sympathetic to a 17 year old whose life ended up totally broken, even if he did it out of sheer malice. Stephen Fry famously stole a credit card at nearly same age and was jailed for it, would you hold that against him today?
- prakhar897 3y ago
  That's why it's called the "Justice" System and not "Rehabilitation" System. Your uncle committed fraud, the public does not care about the surrounding circumstances. The trust that VICTIM will get justice keeps the society intact. Nobody cares what happens to the bad guy. If someone took out all your money through fraud and gambled it away, what would you choose: A) Justice: Put them in Jail for long time. B) Rehabilitation: Put them in medical care for an year till their gambling addiction is cured. Then they are free to integrate back into society. In both cases, you get no money back. What would you prefer?
  - beecafe 3y ago
    Obviously B?
  - Mordisquitos 3y ago
    I would argue that you are placing misnamed choices. Both are different flavours of Justice: A) Retributive Justice: Put them in Jail for long time. B) Rehabilitative Justice: Put them in medical care for an year till their gambling addiction is cured. Then they are free to integrate back into society. All else being equal, I would absolutely prefer B over A. However, there is also a third option C, which can be combined with either A or B: C) Restorative Justice: Require them to do a certain type and amount of work for you or for the state to make up for an agreed amount of your lost money and moral damages. Give me a mix of B and C any day, and throw A down the drain (in the sense of prison purely as punishment, I have nothing against using prison to protect society from certain criminals).
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    I know you think this is some hard dilemma that will force people to admit "yes of course I want them punished". But it really isn't. At the end of the day, putting the guy in jail without rehabilitation doesn't help me at all, except quench the thirst for revenge, which is always there of course, but I know giving in to it is like chasing a fix; it'll make me feel better in the short term and like a vindictive asshole in the long term. What would make me feel better in the long term is knowing that at least something good came out of my losing all my money. In case B as opposed to nothing at all in case A.
- steve76 3y ago
  [dead]
- searealist 3y ago
  A minor doesn't go to prison for writing a single check in his father's name.
zabzonk 3y ago
well, that was encouraging. perhaps games like D&D could help socialise these guys?
- deadly_syn 3y ago
  Easier to break up riots when they end up rolling for initave first
- kibwen 3y ago
  "How Inmates Play Tabletop RPGs in Prisons Where Dice Are Contraband": https://www.vice.com/en/article/padk7z/how-inmates-play-tabletop-rpgs-in-prisons-where-dice-are-contraband https://www.vice.com/en/article/padk7z/how-inmates-play-tabl...
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    good link. from the title, before i read it, i immediately thought about spinners. and then, as this post is about chess, i thought of putting all the chess pieces in a bag and draw them out as needed black = 1, white = 0 (or whatever - somehow i predict quarells about this) and use the binary number generated.
    - LodeOfCode 3y ago
      Although with binary numbers you'd probably want to modify the rules to avoid rolling so many d20s, since you'd need to re-roll them 12/32=37.5% of the time
      - rprospero 3y ago
        You can do it with two bags. Place one piece of each colour, except for pawns, in bag A. Place the pawns and remaining pieces in bag B. There’s ten unique piece in bag A and bag B produces colour with equal probability, so there are twenty distinct outcomes which all have equal odds.
jrh3 3y ago
Some days 3 hots and cot plus a chess club sounds pretty awesome.
- Unbeliever69 3y ago
  I know this is /s but you overestimate the quality of hot and the cot.
  - AngryData 3y ago
    Yeah I have to agree. Having worked in a US prison kitchen before, some of the food that gets served is worse than hot dog food and made me feel sick to even cook and serve to hungry people.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Unpopular opinion: Why do we push games on society instead of work? Why is chess and MMOs fun, but not sewing a shirt or building a new app? I would disagree, I find sewing shirts and making apps fun, MMOs can be grindy and chess is basically just studying. I'm sure there are some relatively minor things like reward rate, physical exertion, etc... but I have to imagine much of it is cultural. Lets not take this to logical extremes, but rather, why don't we value group volunteer work more than playing chess? You have your social aspect, you have rewards, its often different and unique each time. As I've gotten older, its a bit apparent to me that 'beating Zelda' is more akin to work, than it is to getting fulfillment. (However, then there are games like Divinity Original Sin(2) that feel extremely fulfilling, can't deny that.) You wonder how many people are playing Call of Duty because a leader of a friend group saw the advertisement, bought the game, and pushed their friends to do the same. Instead of playing football, they play COD.
- forgotmypw17 3y ago
  Chess specifically helps practice complex multi-step thinking and grokking multiple component systems.
  - hospitalJail 3y ago
    Prove it with science. Skills from one area do not necessarily transfer over.
    - NickC25 3y ago
      The whole point of the game is multi-step thinking. If I make a move, I need to prepare for the inevitable response, which might or might not be obvious to my opponent. The game is inherently more and more complex after each move. While things might not carry over directly in a provable way, there's a reason chess has survived as a game for hundreds of years - because there's definitely ways the game improves your thinking processes, pattern recognition, and abstract decision making skills.
      - 3y ago
whimsicalism 3y ago
Recently was playing chess with a friend in Dolores Park, SF. A man who said that he had only recently gotten out of jail/prison a few months ago (he said he dealt drugs in the Tenderloin) asked for a game and beat both of us (albeit close matches). He said he learned all of his chess in prison and was really excited to happen to find other people playing. He also had no idea how to use a chess clock, I guess they didn't have those in prison.
- sushid 3y ago
  Just curious, what are your elos and where'd you place him?
  - moi2388 3y ago
    .
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    We are not great, 1750-1850 on lichess rapid. Don’t recall well enough to place him
xwdv 3y ago
One of my dreams has been to create a sort of tech prison where criminals would have a computer screen and keyboard built into the wall of their cell, and from here they could access resources to teach them computer science and writing code. And these prisons would have their own version of the internet that is like a “prison wide web” that is only accessible to other prisoners, and can connect to other prisons around the country and even the world, so they can create their own websites like it’s 1999. With time, prisoners who gain a lot of skill could contribute to open source projects or create entirely new libraries and use their contributions as a way to reduce their prison sentences. I can imagine a custom Linux based OS designed to run on these prison computers, that could have special features that allow prisoners to see how much prison time they have remaining and run processes based on what access levels and security requirements they have attributed to them. And of course all communication on this OS would be surveilled by some centralized security system.
- 7355608 3y ago
  The prisoners learning the world’s most valuable skill https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-08-2021/the-prisoners-learning-the-worlds-most-valuable-skill https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-08-2021/the-prisoners-l... Prisoners to programmers: How Take2’s graduates are faring in the tech sector https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/18-10-2022/prisoners-to-programmers-how-take2s-graduates-are-faring-in-the-tech-sector https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/18-10-2022/prisoners-to-pr... Slightly different example but as far as a constructive approach to incarceration goes schemes like this will always be a net positive. Far cheaper than locking people up.
- pests 3y ago
  Your idea is literally illegal in some states like Michigan and Ohio, where it is illegal to teach inmates programming topics. https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-coding-ban/ https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-c...
- makeworld 3y ago
  One of my dreams has been to create a sort of tech prison
johannes1234321 3y ago
Oh that refreshes my memory. Some 25 years ago I did chess training with inmates in a German prison. That was quite an experience. We never did anything tournament-level, but mostly a somewhat alternative offering as part of the resocializing efforts before they completed their sentence of 10+ years. On other sports like football (soccer) there were prison teams however participating in the normal league system. With the little difference that they only had home matches. It was said, while I never checked, it was the fairest team by amount of yellow/red cards.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
iamthirsty 3y ago
Comments about 'Private prisons reaping incredible profits and determined to make people continue to re-offend to keep them occupied' should look at this[0], as the actual count of inmates in private prisons is rather low. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Adult_incarceration_statistics_for_the_USA._Timeline.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
- IvyMike 3y ago
  Here's a link with more recent numbers from 2021. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in... Overall, it's about 8%, but if you look at per-state numbers, it is kind of a bimodal distribution. Looking at some of the more populous states, California has 0%,Florida has 15%, Tennessee has 35%. The trend in states with larger populations in private prisons is that it is also increasing, but there are exceptions (Texas) and you should look at the numbers yourself.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    I did a five-year bid in Tennessee. What the article doesn’t point out is that Go players ranked way over the chess players in prison and almost always had a cell per person plus guaranteed trustee privileges. Because they were by far the best strategists the prison would not issue them any kind of writing implements or paper. These things had to be bought on the black market if you played Go. But the checkers players always ranked way under the chess players, no matter how well they did in competition. There were usually 3 to 4 per cell and they were not allowed to look the Go or chess players in the eye. Checkers players died on the average 14% more often than chess or Go players. </kidding>
    - hirvi74 3y ago
      How bad are TN prisons if you don't mind me asking? As a resident of the state, I have heard that there is one in Middle TN that is absolutely inhumane in many ways... like the state was/is investigating as to why a slightly abnormal number of inmates are dying while incarcerated. I can't remember the name, but it's one of the CoreCivic ones.
bjourne 3y ago
If you are playing chess for therapeutic reasons I strongly recommend playing without time controls. Blitz is fun and lets you blow off stream but doesn't provide the same benefits as staring at a chess position for 20 minutes does. Training yourself to keep focused for long periods of time will improve your skill in other activities too. For example, when analyzing complicated software bugs.
- huevosabio 3y ago
  Agree! Although its a double edged sword. Untimed chess games tend to leak for me even after the game is over. I keep thinking about them long after. Classical chess is probably the last analogue activity that completely sucks me in.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
  It will also cure your opponents insomnia.
- fasterik 3y ago
  Just because you have a clock doesn't mean you have to play blitz. Why not play a classical time control like 90+30? The benefit of a time control is it keeps the game fair (one player can't spend more time than the other) and ensures the game doesn't last longer than you want it to.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    For amateurs 90+30 is the same as no time control. They are not used to playing slow and will play much faster than they have to.
- LanceH 3y ago
  Losing a 4 hour game stings a lot more than playing 20 games in a row with a variety of results.
Havoc 3y ago
Reminds me of the cats for prisoners thing. Strikes me as an exceptionally good use of taxpayer money. Prisons suck at rehabilitating people and thus just make things worse in the long run when you release the people. Anything you can do to blunt that negative effect is a win. edit: edited for a rough typo
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  what's the cats for prisoners thing?
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    I don't know the specific one they're referring to, but I'd imagine it would be similar to many other pets and prisoner programs [0]. The essence being that having an animal to take care of can be therapeutic and help teach valuable rehabilitation skills like responsibility. [0]: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/80699/8-prison-animal-programs https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/80699/8-prison-animal-pr...
- emodendroket 3y ago
  If you say prisons "suck at" rehabilitating people it suggests it's something they want to do but are not succeeding at. However, there are a lot of governors and prison officials who reject that notion as namby-pamby and see the institution of prisons as purely punitive or retributive with no real duty to rehabilitate offenders.
  - invalidOrTaken 3y ago
    There is another use for prisons unmentioned: keeping the prisoners out of the way of the rest of society.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      Sure, but what happens when they are released? The majority will get out at some point.
dsabanin 3y ago
Alternative title: Ex-criminals become smarter and harder to catch after practicing chess in prison. /joking
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
  Another alternative title: Prisoners strategize about how to kill each other in chess
Lio 3y ago
This makes me think about John Healy's autobiography The Grass Arena[1] which was later turned into a film. His unfortunate childhood lead him into severe alcoholism despite being a promising boxer. He ended up living a rough life on the streets of London, moving in and out of prison. On one of his stints inside he was taught chess and it turned his life around. It's pretty raw but a good book and worth a read IMHO. There's also a documentary about John Healy called Barbaric Genius[2], which I think is on Netflix and other streaming services. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grass_Arena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grass_Arena 2. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1482452/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1482452/
- mellosouls 3y ago
  The film with Healey played by Mark Rylance in his pre-fame days, obvious talent even then: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101972/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101972/ https://youtu.be/2uccHYLmQTw https://youtu.be/2uccHYLmQTw
ftxbro 3y ago
I'm always skeptical of so many stories like 'chess help x' because it's very easy to believe it's true but I also could believe it never helps objectively. I'm curious of the studies.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  “It teaches them to think before they act”. Give me a break. This is nothing more than self lauding propaganda. I have been hearing this throughout grammar school that such and such subject/task/homework helps students do a, b, and c. I don’t think so. It only justified their system of education. Likewise, this is trying to justify prison programs. A sham.
iLoveOncall 3y ago
Yeah I mean I'm pretty sure that any activity that doesn't involve fighting or doing other illegal shit will help with rehabilitation.

160 points by mellosouls 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

My uncle has been in and out of prison for 30 years after his drunk dad sent him to jail as a 17 year old for writing a check in his dads name. The stupidest part is that the """"justice"""" system never trained him or let him learn to drive. So every time he gets out he has to go to impoverished city centers where he meets right back up with the groups that eventually get him back in prison. He could've made a fine career of being a truck driver if America wasn't so stupid. These types of articles are frustrating because it helps the public feel good about themselves when they have a decades long disaster rolling around with no change.

tokai 3y ago
Doesn't it only take a couple of weeks to get a drivers license in the US?
- zikduruqe 3y ago
  No. You walk in and take a written test. If you pass, then you have to take a driving test. Assuming that you have a car. Or a friend with a car. Or money to rent a car. Assuming that you can find a car to drive, you will take a lap around the block to demonstrate that you can steer, stop and maybe parallel park. The barrier to entry is pretty low.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    Good luck renting a car without a driver's license.
    - mbg721 3y ago
      Driving schools will give in-car lessons to adults, and let you use their car for the test, for a fee; that's the form of "renting a car" that's useful for this case. In my state the requirements are looser for adults than for teenagers, under the assumption that adults are generally more responsible or have driven before.
  - mahathu 3y ago
    In Germany, you take individual driving lessons and group classes on traffic rules including a mandatory first aid class.
    - 11235813213455 3y ago
      in Holland, you get a bicycle and never regret it
      - mahathu 3y ago
        That's even more based and walkabilitypilled.
      - pdntspa 3y ago
        Holland is also pretty damn flat
      - hindsightbias 3y ago
        Of the 50 states, we actually have one smaller than Holland.
        BariumBlue 3y ago
        Are you implying that the US is cursed, forever pathologically unable to have bikeable places, because it's too large? If only the US was smaller...
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      This is very common in the US, even though it is not typically mandated. Technically you can just go take the test if you're up to it, and some people do exactly that with no more training than they got from mom & dad. But a lot of kids take the classroom route. Not every parent wants to teach.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    You are required to take and pass paid courses to get a license in most states these days. It was a huge barrier to a lot of the guys in the halfway house. Just coordinating getting to these classes via the bus was a pain. Also, if you return 15 minutes late to the halfway house the US Marshals come pick you up and back to jail you go, so missing a bus has pretty steep consequences that make people avoid any additional bus trips such as getting to drivers training class (you are required to work so you have to risk the bus at least twice a day no matter what).
- antisthenes 3y ago
  No. And definitely not for a CDL.
  - tokai 3y ago
    Just looked it up. The CDL is on average acquired over seven weeks. Not quite a couple of weeks, but not a long time either.
    - antisthenes 3y ago
      It costs several thousand dollars in fees and 7 weeks. That's a lot for an ex-convict.
- Someone1234 3y ago
  With no driving experience? No… And they were talking about a commercial license anyway.
- sporedro 3y ago
  You need to pass a road test which they are pretty picky with along with a written test. The written test had a lot of random crap you would never use imo. Honestly not too difficult but I imagine it might be for someone in and out of prison life. I don’t know much about prison/jail but I do agree it should focus on re-habilitation they should have systems to help you study and get a drivers license while in there for example.
hospitalJail 3y ago
I always wondered why they wouldn't let inmates create value with their skills. Seemingly manual labor that could be automated by a bunch of Undergrad Engineers that wouldn't even qualify as a capstone project. I understand if you have offline computers. I understand if the computer needs to be behind a plexiglass wall and the mouse and keyboard need to be chained down. But quickly these will pay for themselves. Data Entry pays significantly more, I imagine there are plenty of white collar criminals with tech skills that could make $30-$100/hr. Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor. I can't see too many downsides other than the initial set up cost. Pretty sure the right side of the aisle will see the $$$ and approve. The left side should also see the $, but also know how humane and potentially rehabilitating.
- jackmott42 3y ago
  If the prison system keeps ANY of the money you immediately get incentives for abuse and the unimprisoned may not like having their jobs taken by lowball prison laborl
- hzay 3y ago
  > Even if you only let the inmate keep 20%, the inmate is getting skills, money, the system is getting extra money, the company getting the data entry is getting cheap labor. The inmate is also getting dignity and practice at regular life, which might convert a % of them to non-criminal life (I forgot the word for it).
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    There is not much dignity in being forced to work while you are only allowed to keep 20% of what you earn.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      After rent and food the average person gets a lot less than 20%.
brvsft 3y ago
The fact that your uncle never bothered trying to pass a driving test isn't the justice system's fault. He's not a victim or puppet without any agency in his life.
- e-clinton 3y ago
  I’d argue that it is. The system is suppose to be helping rehabilitate inmates so that they fit better in society…. The focus needs to be helping inmates see how they can otherwise create value.
  - quacked 3y ago
    Why do you think the system is supposed to rehabilitate? I would argue that the system is supposed to separate people who cannot be trusted in society from the rest of us. I think the major failure of the justice system (apart from corruption and dishonesty) is the failure to keep prisoners safe from one another. Rehabilitation should happen on your own recognizance, the system should exist to keep you exiled from people who didn't commit your crime. (I do believe that rehabilitation, or more accurately in the case of people who never were instilled with a moral compass, "habilitation", is often possible and always desirable, but I don't think the system itself can or should be entrusted with that responsibility. It should just make the conditions for habilitation possible, and then outside society can intervene as it will.)
    - prottog 3y ago
      > Rehabilitation should happen on your own recognizance I agree. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. There is still legitimate debate on how much role society has to play in making sure it's as nice as possible for the horse to get to water. Obviously in GP's uncle's case an injustice was done to him (by his father, it sounds like), but it is still up to him as an adult to become a productive member of society. I like the way some put it, when talking about people from troubled backgrounds (whether from abusive parents, mental issues, what have you): it wasn't your fault, but it's still your responsibility to deal with it, once you are an adult.
ravenstine 3y ago
The whole idea of putting a man in a box with other criminals so he can "think about what he did" seems like a complete failure, besides the fact that he's kept away from the public so he can't commit more crimes. It's one thing when someone has life in prison without the possibility of parole, but if a man is eventually going to be let out, what good does it really do to prevent him from being able to function on the outside? Basically nothing, as far as I can tell. He is destined to be destitute and possibly go back to a life of criminality. People don't want money and resources to go towards training "violent murderers who didn't do anything to deserve what they're getting", but then what else do you expect other than that you're deferring the criminality to a later date? The odds are not in your favor that the prisoner be reformed by the time he gets out. Reforming criminals, and I mean actual reformation and not the horseshit we consider reformation today, is a cost society should bear for its own good so that prison actually means something. Why let prisoners out when they are likely destined to go right back to prison?
- tiedieconderoga 3y ago
  >what good does it really do to prevent him from being able to function on the outside? From whose perspective? Part of the problem is that some powerful groups are incentived to keep people coming back to prison. Private prisons reap profits, politicians get an easy way to drive fear in their constituents, telcos can charge an arm and a leg for phone calls, commissaries clean up by charging exorbitant prices for toothpaste and ramen, etc. Until we start connecting positive outcomes for those groups to positive outcomes for the prisoners, it'll always be an uphill battle. As Upton Sinclair used to say, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
  - masklinn 3y ago
    Keeping people in prison forever is also a very “law and order” position which plays well with certain groups, and is very easy to sell: you don’t need any sort of nuance, you don’t face empathetic conflicts, etc…
  - iamthirsty 3y ago
conradev 3y ago
My uncle is also in prison and I also don't like these types of articles. I much prefer writing from prisoners themselves: https://prisonjournalismproject.org/category/perspective/ https://prisonjournalismproject.org/category/perspective/
11235813213455 3y ago
Your uncle should definitely not be in prison, but he should get his car confiscated and get a bike, legs-powered
- some_random 3y ago
  He doesn't have a car, that's part of the problem
doh 3y ago
I am involved with a non-profit that provides ISA (income share agreements) to convicts to get licensed truckers [0]. The founder started it due to similar experiences as you described and changed the lives of many people already. Wish this was institutionalized rather than being done as singular organization, but it's a start. [0] https://freeworld.org https://freeworld.org
Jiro 3y ago
>after his drunk dad sent him to jail as a 17 year old for writing a check in his dads name. This lacks the details for me to know whether I should be sympathetic or not. Are you saying that he forged the check for some reason related to his dad being drunk, like his dad not buying any food, or that his dad agreed to let him write the check and then complained to the police anyway because he was drunk?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Does whether you're sympathetic to their situation at 17 affect how well they should be rehabilitated, in your view, or are you just curious? Genuine question.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  It is difficult to imagine someone not being sympathetic to a 17 year old whose life ended up totally broken, even if he did it out of sheer malice. Stephen Fry famously stole a credit card at nearly same age and was jailed for it, would you hold that against him today?
prakhar897 3y ago
That's why it's called the "Justice" System and not "Rehabilitation" System. Your uncle committed fraud, the public does not care about the surrounding circumstances. The trust that VICTIM will get justice keeps the society intact. Nobody cares what happens to the bad guy. If someone took out all your money through fraud and gambled it away, what would you choose: A) Justice: Put them in Jail for long time. B) Rehabilitation: Put them in medical care for an year till their gambling addiction is cured. Then they are free to integrate back into society. In both cases, you get no money back. What would you prefer?
- beecafe 3y ago
  Obviously B?
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  I would argue that you are placing misnamed choices. Both are different flavours of Justice: A) Retributive Justice: Put them in Jail for long time. B) Rehabilitative Justice: Put them in medical care for an year till their gambling addiction is cured. Then they are free to integrate back into society. All else being equal, I would absolutely prefer B over A. However, there is also a third option C, which can be combined with either A or B: C) Restorative Justice: Require them to do a certain type and amount of work for you or for the state to make up for an agreed amount of your lost money and moral damages. Give me a mix of B and C any day, and throw A down the drain (in the sense of prison purely as punishment, I have nothing against using prison to protect society from certain criminals).
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I know you think this is some hard dilemma that will force people to admit "yes of course I want them punished". But it really isn't. At the end of the day, putting the guy in jail without rehabilitation doesn't help me at all, except quench the thirst for revenge, which is always there of course, but I know giving in to it is like chasing a fix; it'll make me feel better in the short term and like a vindictive asshole in the long term. What would make me feel better in the long term is knowing that at least something good came out of my losing all my money. In case B as opposed to nothing at all in case A.
steve76 3y ago
[dead]
searealist 3y ago
A minor doesn't go to prison for writing a single check in his father's name.

zabzonk 3y ago

well, that was encouraging. perhaps games like D&D could help socialise these guys?

deadly_syn 3y ago
Easier to break up riots when they end up rolling for initave first
kibwen 3y ago
"How Inmates Play Tabletop RPGs in Prisons Where Dice Are Contraband": https://www.vice.com/en/article/padk7z/how-inmates-play-tabletop-rpgs-in-prisons-where-dice-are-contraband https://www.vice.com/en/article/padk7z/how-inmates-play-tabl...
- zabzonk 3y ago
  good link. from the title, before i read it, i immediately thought about spinners. and then, as this post is about chess, i thought of putting all the chess pieces in a bag and draw them out as needed black = 1, white = 0 (or whatever - somehow i predict quarells about this) and use the binary number generated.
  - LodeOfCode 3y ago
    Although with binary numbers you'd probably want to modify the rules to avoid rolling so many d20s, since you'd need to re-roll them 12/32=37.5% of the time
    - rprospero 3y ago
      You can do it with two bags. Place one piece of each colour, except for pawns, in bag A. Place the pawns and remaining pieces in bag B. There’s ten unique piece in bag A and bag B produces colour with equal probability, so there are twenty distinct outcomes which all have equal odds.

jrh3 3y ago

Some days 3 hots and cot plus a chess club sounds pretty awesome.

Unbeliever69 3y ago
I know this is /s but you overestimate the quality of hot and the cot.
- AngryData 3y ago
  Yeah I have to agree. Having worked in a US prison kitchen before, some of the food that gets served is worse than hot dog food and made me feel sick to even cook and serve to hungry people.

hospitalJail 3y ago

Unpopular opinion: Why do we push games on society instead of work? Why is chess and MMOs fun, but not sewing a shirt or building a new app? I would disagree, I find sewing shirts and making apps fun, MMOs can be grindy and chess is basically just studying. I'm sure there are some relatively minor things like reward rate, physical exertion, etc... but I have to imagine much of it is cultural. Lets not take this to logical extremes, but rather, why don't we value group volunteer work more than playing chess? You have your social aspect, you have rewards, its often different and unique each time. As I've gotten older, its a bit apparent to me that 'beating Zelda' is more akin to work, than it is to getting fulfillment. (However, then there are games like Divinity Original Sin(2) that feel extremely fulfilling, can't deny that.) You wonder how many people are playing Call of Duty because a leader of a friend group saw the advertisement, bought the game, and pushed their friends to do the same. Instead of playing football, they play COD.

forgotmypw17 3y ago
Chess specifically helps practice complex multi-step thinking and grokking multiple component systems.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Prove it with science. Skills from one area do not necessarily transfer over.
  - NickC25 3y ago
    The whole point of the game is multi-step thinking. If I make a move, I need to prepare for the inevitable response, which might or might not be obvious to my opponent. The game is inherently more and more complex after each move. While things might not carry over directly in a provable way, there's a reason chess has survived as a game for hundreds of years - because there's definitely ways the game improves your thinking processes, pattern recognition, and abstract decision making skills.
    - 3y ago

whimsicalism 3y ago

Recently was playing chess with a friend in Dolores Park, SF. A man who said that he had only recently gotten out of jail/prison a few months ago (he said he dealt drugs in the Tenderloin) asked for a game and beat both of us (albeit close matches). He said he learned all of his chess in prison and was really excited to happen to find other people playing. He also had no idea how to use a chess clock, I guess they didn't have those in prison.

sushid 3y ago
Just curious, what are your elos and where'd you place him?
- moi2388 3y ago
  .
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  We are not great, 1750-1850 on lichess rapid. Don’t recall well enough to place him

xwdv 3y ago

One of my dreams has been to create a sort of tech prison where criminals would have a computer screen and keyboard built into the wall of their cell, and from here they could access resources to teach them computer science and writing code. And these prisons would have their own version of the internet that is like a “prison wide web” that is only accessible to other prisoners, and can connect to other prisons around the country and even the world, so they can create their own websites like it’s 1999. With time, prisoners who gain a lot of skill could contribute to open source projects or create entirely new libraries and use their contributions as a way to reduce their prison sentences. I can imagine a custom Linux based OS designed to run on these prison computers, that could have special features that allow prisoners to see how much prison time they have remaining and run processes based on what access levels and security requirements they have attributed to them. And of course all communication on this OS would be surveilled by some centralized security system.

7355608 3y ago
The prisoners learning the world’s most valuable skill https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-08-2021/the-prisoners-learning-the-worlds-most-valuable-skill https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-08-2021/the-prisoners-l... Prisoners to programmers: How Take2’s graduates are faring in the tech sector https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/18-10-2022/prisoners-to-programmers-how-take2s-graduates-are-faring-in-the-tech-sector https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/18-10-2022/prisoners-to-pr... Slightly different example but as far as a constructive approach to incarceration goes schemes like this will always be a net positive. Far cheaper than locking people up.
pests 3y ago
Your idea is literally illegal in some states like Michigan and Ohio, where it is illegal to teach inmates programming topics. https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-coding-ban/ https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/aug/17/prisons-c...
makeworld 3y ago
One of my dreams has been to create a sort of tech prison

johannes1234321 3y ago

Oh that refreshes my memory. Some 25 years ago I did chess training with inmates in a German prison. That was quite an experience. We never did anything tournament-level, but mostly a somewhat alternative offering as part of the resocializing efforts before they completed their sentence of 10+ years. On other sports like football (soccer) there were prison teams however participating in the normal league system. With the little difference that they only had home matches. It was said, while I never checked, it was the fairest team by amount of yellow/red cards.

deleted 3y ago

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iamthirsty 3y ago

Comments about 'Private prisons reaping incredible profits and determined to make people continue to re-offend to keep them occupied' should look at this[0], as the actual count of inmates in private prisons is rather low. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Adult_incarceration_statistics_for_the_USA._Timeline.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

IvyMike 3y ago
Here's a link with more recent numbers from 2021. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in... Overall, it's about 8%, but if you look at per-state numbers, it is kind of a bimodal distribution. Looking at some of the more populous states, California has 0%,Florida has 15%, Tennessee has 35%. The trend in states with larger populations in private prisons is that it is also increasing, but there are exceptions (Texas) and you should look at the numbers yourself.
- tomcam 3y ago
  I did a five-year bid in Tennessee. What the article doesn’t point out is that Go players ranked way over the chess players in prison and almost always had a cell per person plus guaranteed trustee privileges. Because they were by far the best strategists the prison would not issue them any kind of writing implements or paper. These things had to be bought on the black market if you played Go. But the checkers players always ranked way under the chess players, no matter how well they did in competition. There were usually 3 to 4 per cell and they were not allowed to look the Go or chess players in the eye. Checkers players died on the average 14% more often than chess or Go players. </kidding>
  - hirvi74 3y ago
    How bad are TN prisons if you don't mind me asking? As a resident of the state, I have heard that there is one in Middle TN that is absolutely inhumane in many ways... like the state was/is investigating as to why a slightly abnormal number of inmates are dying while incarcerated. I can't remember the name, but it's one of the CoreCivic ones.

bjourne 3y ago

If you are playing chess for therapeutic reasons I strongly recommend playing without time controls. Blitz is fun and lets you blow off stream but doesn't provide the same benefits as staring at a chess position for 20 minutes does. Training yourself to keep focused for long periods of time will improve your skill in other activities too. For example, when analyzing complicated software bugs.

huevosabio 3y ago
Agree! Although its a double edged sword. Untimed chess games tend to leak for me even after the game is over. I keep thinking about them long after. Classical chess is probably the last analogue activity that completely sucks me in.
0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
It will also cure your opponents insomnia.
fasterik 3y ago
Just because you have a clock doesn't mean you have to play blitz. Why not play a classical time control like 90+30? The benefit of a time control is it keeps the game fair (one player can't spend more time than the other) and ensures the game doesn't last longer than you want it to.
- bjourne 3y ago
  For amateurs 90+30 is the same as no time control. They are not used to playing slow and will play much faster than they have to.
LanceH 3y ago
Losing a 4 hour game stings a lot more than playing 20 games in a row with a variety of results.

Havoc 3y ago

Reminds me of the cats for prisoners thing. Strikes me as an exceptionally good use of taxpayer money. Prisons suck at rehabilitating people and thus just make things worse in the long run when you release the people. Anything you can do to blunt that negative effect is a win. edit: edited for a rough typo

jjtheblunt 3y ago
what's the cats for prisoners thing?
- TheCleric 3y ago
  I don't know the specific one they're referring to, but I'd imagine it would be similar to many other pets and prisoner programs [0]. The essence being that having an animal to take care of can be therapeutic and help teach valuable rehabilitation skills like responsibility. [0]: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/80699/8-prison-animal-programs https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/80699/8-prison-animal-pr...
emodendroket 3y ago
If you say prisons "suck at" rehabilitating people it suggests it's something they want to do but are not succeeding at. However, there are a lot of governors and prison officials who reject that notion as namby-pamby and see the institution of prisons as purely punitive or retributive with no real duty to rehabilitate offenders.
- invalidOrTaken 3y ago
  There is another use for prisons unmentioned: keeping the prisoners out of the way of the rest of society.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    Sure, but what happens when they are released? The majority will get out at some point.

dsabanin 3y ago

Alternative title: Ex-criminals become smarter and harder to catch after practicing chess in prison. /joking

0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
Another alternative title: Prisoners strategize about how to kill each other in chess

Lio 3y ago

This makes me think about John Healy's autobiography The Grass Arena[1] which was later turned into a film. His unfortunate childhood lead him into severe alcoholism despite being a promising boxer. He ended up living a rough life on the streets of London, moving in and out of prison. On one of his stints inside he was taught chess and it turned his life around. It's pretty raw but a good book and worth a read IMHO. There's also a documentary about John Healy called Barbaric Genius[2], which I think is on Netflix and other streaming services. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grass_Arena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grass_Arena 2. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1482452/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1482452/

mellosouls 3y ago
The film with Healey played by Mark Rylance in his pre-fame days, obvious talent even then: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101972/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101972/ https://youtu.be/2uccHYLmQTw https://youtu.be/2uccHYLmQTw

ftxbro 3y ago

I'm always skeptical of so many stories like 'chess help x' because it's very easy to believe it's true but I also could believe it never helps objectively. I'm curious of the studies.

nashashmi 3y ago
“It teaches them to think before they act”. Give me a break. This is nothing more than self lauding propaganda. I have been hearing this throughout grammar school that such and such subject/task/homework helps students do a, b, and c. I don’t think so. It only justified their system of education. Likewise, this is trying to justify prison programs. A sham.

iLoveOncall 3y ago

Yeah I mean I'm pretty sure that any activity that doesn't involve fighting or doing other illegal shit will help with rehabilitation.